Sure, but there's no real good reason to NOT have a real money auction house. My point is that Diablo is not a meritocracy, like World of Warcraft, where good things come from hard work and skill. In Diablo, rewards come from luck and wealth, like the real world.
The big difference is that there is a big gate standing between you and loot in Warcraft, and only the most skilled to jump the gate or strongest to break that gate down can get the loot.
That gate isn't there in Diablo. Instead, it's like you're in a building with a million doors, and behind one of those doors is the loot. So anyone can get it, it just takes a matter of time.
Therefore, I don't see an issue with saying to some players "If you value your time, you can pay money to buy the items you want" and saying to other players "If you value your money, you can use gold to buy the items you want."
Cause really that's the big difference. Skill is important to the acquisition of gear in WoW. It is not important in Diablo.
"Why?" is as important a question question as "Why not?".
There are reasons. Like I said in a thread several weeks back, I know you've been strolling 'round Diablo 3 threads for a while, so I don't see why you have to play dumb every single time. You know what people are going to say, so why not just go ahead and nip it in the bud. Tell us why they're not good reasons, but don't try to dismiss everything off-hand. But I'll humor you:
1) Having money influence the game will have negative consequences for the game's economy, mainly in the form of gold getting devalued.
2) It encourages gold farmers, the very thing most people pretend-cry about when talking about the problems of Diablo 2. I know what you're going to say, it protects people from being scammed, but here's the thing, people were scammed for doing something that was against Blizzard's core ideals (up until they decided they can profit greatly from it). They had no moral obligation whatsoever to do so on those grounds. Idiots getting scammed for cheating? "Good" is the only acceptable reaction. Here's what the possibility of getting scammed does, too, and this will blow your mind - it reduces the amount of people who will try to shortcut their way through the game. The opposite of the effects of the RMAH.
3) Having money be an incentive for playing a game seems to me really, I don't know what the right word for this is, but I'll say cynical. It's as if the game being fun and engrossing wasn't justification enough for people to play it. The "You can make money!" carrot must be dangled in front of their faces for them to be interested. Which, sad to say, seems to have worked on quite a few people on this forum at least.
Well, supposedly, Diablo 3 will require some skill in its later stages as well, and in those later stages, chances are, you'll be getting more gold and better loot, ergo, you're going to be rewarded more than some random chump, ergo, you'll find it easier to buy shit with the gold you earned if you're good. A skilled player will be more effective throughout the game. Skill does factor into it, to some extent anyway.
You are right on the time thing, though. In general, with the system in place, all that matters is how much time you sink into the game. At this point it's more of a disagreement of ideals. I think that when I buy a full priced game, I should be on equal footing with everyone else, every time. Some people may find my views extreme, but I'm pretty much opposed to any form of nickel and diming.
Because making drugs illegal has done so much to make the problem go away.
The situation is in fact analogous. Any activity like this, whether drugs or prostitution or RMT, is MUCH better off out in the open and directly regulated, instead of left to the shadows and black market. That is what DIRECTLY leads to hacking, theft, scams and dupes- just like illegal drugs leads to crime rings, robberies, and gang violence.
Also, Blizzard now has a direct incentive to regulate the economy so that it works and is rewarding for players - otherwise they have a dead economy and no fees. If the game isn't fun to play in the long term, they will lose their revenue stream.
Sure, but there's no real good reason to NOT have a real money auction house. My point is that Diablo is not a meritocracy, like World of Warcraft, where good things come from hard work and skill. In Diablo, rewards come from luck and wealth, like the real world.
The big difference is that there is a big gate standing between you and loot in Warcraft, and only the most skilled to jump the gate or strongest to break that gate down can get the loot.
That gate isn't there in Diablo. Instead, it's like you're in a building with a million doors, and behind one of those doors is the loot. So anyone can get it, it just takes a matter of time.
Therefore, I don't see an issue with saying to some players "If you value your time, you can pay money to buy the items you want" and saying to other players "If you value your money, you can use gold to buy the items you want."
Cause really that's the big difference. Skill is important to the acquisition of gear in WoW. It is not important in Diablo.
"Why?" is as important a question question as "Why not?".
There are reasons. Like I said in a thread several weeks back, I know you've been strolling 'round Diablo 3 threads for a while, so I don't see why you have to play dumb every single time. You know what people are going to say, so why not just go ahead and nip it in the bud. Tell us why they're not good reasons, but don't try to dismiss everything off-hand. But I'll humor you:
1) Having money influence the game will have negative consequences for the game's economy, mainly in the form of gold getting devalued.
2) It encourages gold farmers, the very thing most people pretend-cry about when talking about the problems of Diablo 2. I know what you're going to say, it protects people from being scammed, but here's the thing, people were scammed for doing something that was against Blizzard's core ideals (up until they decided they can profit greatly from it). They had no moral obligation whatsoever to do so on those grounds. Idiots getting scammed for cheating? "Good" is the only acceptable reaction. Here's what the possibility of getting scammed does, too, and this will blow your mind - it reduces the amount of people who will try to shortcut their way through the game. The opposite of the effects of the RMAH.
3) Having money be an incentive for playing a game seems to me really, I don't know what the right word for this is, but I'll say cynical. It's as if the game being fun and engrossing wasn't justification enough for people to play it. The "You can make money!" carrot must be dangled in front of their faces for them to be interested. Which, sad to say, seems to have worked on quite a few people on this forum at least.
Well, supposedly, Diablo 3 will require some skill in its later stages as well, and in those later stages, chances are, you'll be getting more gold and better loot, ergo, you're going to be rewarded more than some random chump, ergo, you'll find it easier to buy shit with the gold you earned if you're good. A skilled player will be more effective throughout the game. Skill does factor into it, to some extent anyway.
You are right on the time thing, though. In general, with the system in place, all that matters is how much time you sink into the game. At this point it's more of a disagreement of ideals. I think that when I buy a full priced game, I should be on equal footing with everyone else, every time. Some people may find my views extreme, but I'm pretty much opposed to any form of nickel and diming.
1: I don't think that having money in the game is going to negatively impact the economy. In fact, I think it will make things easier in terms of pricing. Here is what will inevitably happen: People are going to come to an agreement on how much Gold = $1, because afterall, you are going to be able to sell Gold on the RMAH. Once you have figured out how much gold translates to $1, from there pricing is going to be really easy. If an item sells high on the RMAH, but low on the Gold AH, buy it and sell it on the RMAH. If the inverse is true, buy the item on the RMAH, sell it high on the Gold AH and them resell the Gold on the RMAH at standard price to recoup your loss. Because of this, prices are going to be pretty standard between the RMAH and the Gold AH.
2: Well, my big thing there is so what? I've never been in the "Gold selling is wrong" camp. I mean, what does it matter to me if someone wants to spend a ton of their cash buying gear? I'm not even trying to turn this into an ethical issue. If somewhere out there a chinese prison is ordering 10,000 copies of Diablo 3, eh, well sucks to be them I guess.
3: To me the RMAH isn't an incentive to play. Mostly because I don't really think that people are going to be making a lot of money off of it. I suppose it's possible, but I'm not sure. What I do think will happen however is that there are going to be some people who see this as a good way to fund their WoW addiction, which is cool for them I guess. What I think this is however is just a different way for people to gear out their character if they choose to do so. I mean, hell, pretty soon I'm going to be working a hell of a lot more hours but for much higher pay. For someone in that situation, you have to look at the cost-benefit. How much money do you make in an hour? How long will it take you to get an item? Is it worth it to spend hours grinding to get something when you could just buy it?
I mean right now for me, if something was listed up there for like 20 bucks and it took hours to get, it wouldn't be worth it. But come like August, hell that would probably save me money.
As for skill, you are right, I shouldn't totally discount skill in the equation. However, what I meant to say was that ultimately luck is going to play the biggest factor. After all, the best gear is NOT going to drop from bosses, but rare monsters. So the player lucky enough to run into more rare monsters is the one who is going to get the best loot.
Ultimately my point was that unlike an MMO, the quality of loot will never be the hallmark of a good player in Diablo. Even if there wasn't a real money AH.
If you take a look at Ebay, you'll find people spending upwards of $500 for a loot card to unlock a mount. A mount that goes no faster than one you could spend virtual money on, yeah.
I say that if a game is based on grind, it is deeply, fundamentally flawed and not worth playing, or its merits worth defending.
Why? Because it fails to answer one important question:
"What is the purpose of a game if it's designed to systematically bore you?"
This is the one question I have NEVER received a satisfactory answer for.
When I finish grinding, I ultimately feel cheated. Cheated of time I could have spent doing anything better; a game that's more interesting and fun.
As for implementation: Grind as an option?
Eh, that's pushing it, but as long as there's a way to reward player skill FIRST, then it's perfectly tolerable.
But grind as a REQUIREMENT? Indefensible. People say that games have no purpose but to waste time; I say why merely waste time? Why not challenge yourself or otherwise just have FUN with your spare time?
Why turn gaming into another mundane, boring job?
The entire concept of item upgrades in RPG's is a variation on the basic theme of "put in effort, get rewarded".
Yeah? And there are plenty of other games that reward the player without forcing them to grind AT ALL. Legend of Grimrock just came out and it does precisely that.
Going beyond static item placement:
Nethack has COMPLETE item randomization, yet it does not require the player to grind at all in order to win (there are methods that involve grinding, but none of them are required, nor optimal). A bit of luck will go a ways, but it never overtakes the necessity for planning and good decision making.
The challenge for developers is therefore not to eliminate that grind, but to make it enjoyable, and let it be appropriately rewarded.
Tolerating a problem does not solve it.
Mitigation of grind may treat the symptoms, but it doesn't fix the problem.
In the end the general idea of a real money AH isn't bad - goldfarmers have proven time and again there is substantial demand for it by players who'd apparently rather spend money than effort. Balance, however, is everything. If never spending real money on AH items ceases being anything less than perfectly viable, then they'll have screwed the pooch.
With the added incentives for REAL MONEY, I could see people playing for hundreds of hours (most likely not having any fun, knowing grind) for all the wrong reasons. And Blizzard is going to lap all of it up.
Yeah, no. I don't need to waste that much of my life grinding away for nothing.
I did my time in Diablo 2, thanks.
Diablo 2 items are still being sold for real cash right now, Blizzard just wants to make it safer and easier for people who are already buying Unique Elites for 10s or 100s of dollars.
1: I don't think that having money in the game is going to negatively impact the economy. In fact, I think it will make things easier in terms of pricing. Here is what will inevitably happen: People are going to come to an agreement on how much Gold = $1, because afterall, you are going to be able to sell Gold on the RMAH. Once you have figured out how much gold translates to $1, from there pricing is going to be really easy. If an item sells high on the RMAH, but low on the Gold AH, buy it and sell it on the RMAH. If the inverse is true, buy the item on the RMAH, sell it high on the Gold AH and them resell the Gold on the RMAH at standard price to recoup your loss. Because of this, prices are going to be pretty standard between the RMAH and the Gold AH.
Not a matter of opinion. Having two sets of currency in this sort of setup instead of one will invariably devalue both of them. Gold will have less buying power. That was my point and it's irrelevant whether later on there will be a standard or not.
To say that Gold will have less buying power than real money may be true at first, but I disagree about the likelyhood overtime. In every game economy, bulk goods invariably wind up with a standard pricing range. This is almost assuredly going to be the case with gold.
Now, lets look at it this way. Assume that Axe of Doom sells on the AH for 20 dollars. Assume also that 100,000 gold sells for 5 dollars. If that is the case, then the Axe of Doom should sell on the gold AH for about 400,000. However, if what you are saying is true, and gold will be devalued, then what we will see is people selling Axe of Doom for 20 dollars on the Real Money AH and 600,000 gold on the Gold AH. If that is the case, then what players are going to invariably do is buy Axes of Doom on the RMAH for 20 dollars. Then they will turn around and sell the Axe of Doom for 600,000 gold on the Gold AH. Once they get their gold, they can sell the gold on the AH for 30 dollars, netting about a 5 dollar profit after Blizzard takes it's cut. Invariably, what you will see then is that either the price of the Axe of Doom on the Gold AH will drop, or the price on the RMAH will increase.
Hammeroj said:
2: Well, my big thing there is so what? I've never been in the "Gold selling is wrong" camp. I mean, what does it matter to me if someone wants to spend a ton of their cash buying gear? I'm not even trying to turn this into an ethical issue. If somewhere out there a chinese prison is ordering 10,000 copies of Diablo 3, eh, well sucks to be them I guess.
Not trying to turn it into a moral issue. My point was that the thing most people pretend to care about about will be encouraged, ergo, the repercussions on the game's economy will be increased, not decreased.
Fair enough, like I said, I don't have a horse in the race, just my 2 cents.
Hammeroj said:
3: To me the RMAH isn't an incentive to play. Mostly because I don't really think that people are going to be making a lot of money off of it. I suppose it's possible, but I'm not sure. What I do think will happen however is that there are going to be some people who see this as a good way to fund their WoW addiction, which is cool for them I guess. What I think this is however is just a different way for people to gear out their character if they choose to do so. I mean, hell, pretty soon I'm going to be working a hell of a lot more hours but for much higher pay. For someone in that situation, you have to look at the cost-benefit. How much money do you make in an hour? How long will it take you to get an item? Is it worth it to spend hours grinding to get something when you could just buy it?
I mean right now for me, if something was listed up there for like 20 bucks and it took hours to get, it wouldn't be worth it. But come like August, hell that would probably save me money.
I don't frankly care what it is to you in particular. That's the effect it has on people, do you really want me to pull up the countless quotes saying "Can't wait to make money!"? Of course it's being used as an incentive to play the game, you don't make the intent go away by showing me how much of a special snowflake you are.
Refer to the last part of my last post. I want games to treat everyone equally, and not have preference for people with larger wallets. You don't, and that's pretty much where the conversation stops.
Sure, I mean I get where you are coming from. I disagree obviously, but I understand your point. My point is that RPGs, by their nature, will never be equal among players. I feel that striving to make people equal in an RPG is detrimental. The whole point of an video game RPG is to become the best, most powerful player you can, but what is the point if everyone else is just as powerful as you are?
Hammeroj said:
As for skill, you are right, I shouldn't totally discount skill in the equation. However, what I meant to say was that ultimately luck is going to play the biggest factor. After all, the best gear is NOT going to drop from bosses, but rare monsters. So the player lucky enough to run into more rare monsters is the one who is going to get the best loot.
Ultimately my point was that unlike an MMO, the quality of loot will never be the hallmark of a good player in Diablo. Even if there wasn't a real money AH.
Granted that Diablo 3 will feature any sort of difficulty, being a sucky player and farming relatively low level enemies will take dozens of times longer to get the same results as someone who is skilled. Skill is a factor in a very real way. And even if I granted you that the difference is negligible for the sake of argument, at least you've worked for those items. Now it's just a matter of whipping out a credit card.
I find the rare mob remark rather curious. What makes you think they have better loot tables than actual bosses?
Granted that Diablo 3 will feature any sort of difficulty, being a sucky player and farming relatively low level enemies will take dozens of times longer to get the same results as someone who is skilled. Skill is a factor in a very real way. And even if I granted you that the difference is negligible for the sake of argument, at least you've worked for those items. Now it's just a matter of whipping out a credit card.
I find the rare mob remark rather curious. What makes you think they have better loot tables than actual bosses?
I'd rather have you answer the question. I don't like listening to people from Blizzard talk similarly to the way I don't like listening to stereotypical politicians talk.
I don't know how to be more authoritative on the issue than quoting a primary source. He says in the game that the focus is going to be on rares and champions to get the best loot, not the bosses.
I don't know how to be more authoritative on the issue than quoting a primary source. He says in the game that the focus is going to be on rares and champions to get the best loot, not the bosses.
I guess it bears mentioning that at least in the beta, the skeleton king had like a ten times better drop table than any of the hundred of rare mobs I killed. Maybe I've just been unlucky, but it didn't feel at all that the focus of the loot was put on those rare monsters.
Here is what I understand so far from what I have read and watched online.
Rares and Champions give the best loot drops.
Once you hit 60, killing Rare and Champion packs give you a buff called Nephalem Valor that persists as long as you don't swap your skills, runes, passives or leave the game. While the buff is up, you have increased magic and gold find chances, and it makes bosses drop extra loot.
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
