Blizzard reveals Real Money Auction House Fees

[Kargathia]

Spoiler: snip snap

However, "eliminating the grind" leaves us with a minor problem: you eliminate the game.

I say that if a game is based on grind, it is deeply, fundamentally flawed and not worth playing, or its merits worth defending.

Why? Because it fails to answer one important question:

"What is the purpose of a game if it's designed to systematically bore you?"

This is the one question I have NEVER received a satisfactory answer for.
When I finish grinding, I ultimately feel cheated. Cheated of time I could have spent doing anything better; a game that's more interesting and fun.

As for implementation: Grind as an option?
Eh, that's pushing it, but as long as there's a way to reward player skill FIRST, then it's perfectly tolerable.

But grind as a REQUIREMENT? Indefensible. People say that games have no purpose but to waste time; I say why merely waste time? Why not challenge yourself or otherwise just have FUN with your spare time?

Why turn gaming into another mundane, boring job?

The entire concept of item upgrades in RPG's is a variation on the basic theme of "put in effort, get rewarded".

Yeah? And there are plenty of other games that reward the player without forcing them to grind AT ALL. Legend of Grimrock just came out and it does precisely that.

Going beyond static item placement:

Nethack has COMPLETE item randomization, yet it does not require the player to grind at all in order to win (there are methods that involve grinding, but none of them are required, nor optimal). A bit of luck will go a ways, but it never overtakes the necessity for planning and good decision making.

The challenge for developers is therefore not to eliminate that grind, but to make it enjoyable, and let it be appropriately rewarded.

Tolerating a problem does not solve it.
Mitigation of grind may treat the symptoms, but it doesn't fix the problem.

In the end the general idea of a real money AH isn't bad - goldfarmers have proven time and again there is substantial demand for it by players who'd apparently rather spend money than effort. Balance, however, is everything. If never spending real money on AH items ceases being anything less than perfectly viable, then they'll have screwed the pooch.

Blizzard basically controls the grind-dial. I still argue that "balance" for viability doesn't really exist when it's so strongly based on luck.

I think we might have a bit of an issue with terminology here.

At it's very core Diablo is nothing more than repeatedly killing monsters that drop shiny stuff. Hence "grind".
This is not a pejorative term, nor even strictly indicative of the mundane, uninterrupted "kill this a gabazillion times to win" it has been associated with, due to bad execution by other games.

It says exactly as much as stating that one progresses through an FPS by repeatedly shooting stuff.

If you'd like to assign a different name to this basic concept of forcibly digging through whatever areas the game provides you with, then by all means - as long as you'll consider that when taking out the "fight monsters, explore dungeons, and complete quests" Diablo III is left with nothing more than a few books of lore, and a notice stating: "You Have Won The Game".

 

[black_knight1337]

You know what that did for me and my friends in D2? Somewhere between fuck and all. In 300 hours, we got 1 vex rune and 0 zod runes. No where close to the items we needed. After 300 hours.

And the rarity of needed items in D3 is expected to be EVEN HIGHER to make them worth money.

If you don't see a problem with this, you need to get your eyesight examined.

and yet throughout the years of playing Diablo 2 I never once had to resort to the back-door gold farming bs to get where I needed to be. I played the game on the highest settings so that the best equipment will be available. Amazingly I kept up just fine with those who bought the high end equipment. Also, you do know that buying items in Diablo 2 had a pretty big presence even though it was against the rules. Blizzard are taking the risk out of these shady operations by providing a sanctioned method of doing it and quite honestly the system they are putting in place seems pretty damn good. They are taken a considerably small cut from your earnings when compared to other services of this nature. There's a 3 day lock-out so that you are still encouraged to play the game rather than pay for high end stuff straight up.

 

[Aurgelmir]

As long as those items CAN be obtained in the game. I'm not complaining.
If someone really wants to spend 250 dollars on a in game armour, then so be it.

This is what I think also.

No one is forcing you to pay for the loot.
Also your loot is yours, meaning that whatever drops off the mob is yours, and not visible to anyone else. This means no one can ninja that one item, just because you can get $250 for it on the RMAH.

So I don't see a problem. I won't use the thing, but I view it as a much better way of dealing with gold farming etc than saying "it will get you banned from game"

 

[Vhite]

I dont see a reason why whould anyone couplain about this. You don't have to use it and there will be no spamers and bots who destroyed D2's leveling.

 

[Qitz]

I dont see a reason why whould anyone couplain about this. You don't have to use it and there will be no spamers and bots who destroyed D2's leveling.

Most peoples complaints are focused around buying power when it comes to PvP, they don't like the idea of someone just buying all the high tier gear they want and face rolling legit players.

Yeah it'll kill the spammers / bots (most of them anyways I'm sure there will be some it is a Blizzard game) but the worry of someone not getting their gear legit is a biggish one.

Though I can already see the PvP insults now "GG nub, go buy more gear with mommys credit card."

 

[Atmos Duality]

I think we might have a bit of an issue with terminology here.

At it's very core Diablo is nothing more than repeatedly killing monsters that drop shiny stuff. Hence "grind".

You just described "Progress Quest", not Diablo.
If you actually think that's all Diablo is, then Google Progress Quest and play it.
I just saved you 50+ bucks.

There's quite a bit more to it than that; there is an element of strategy amidst the mindless murder and some sensibility when it comes to taking skills. I played every permutation of every skill build you could think of (no, I do not exaggerate), and it's surprising how certain interactions worked out.

I get the appeal of the monster-mash, really. I wouldn't have played for so long if I didn't. But to claim that Grinding for Loot is the ONLY PART OF DIABLO is just hand-waving everything else away.
Grind can mask and devalue legitimately GOOD gameplay.

This is not a pejorative term, nor even strictly indicative of the mundane, uninterrupted "kill this a gabazillion times to win" it has been associated with, due to bad execution by other games.

It says exactly as much as stating that one progresses through an FPS by repeatedly shooting stuff.

That's an over-generalization and you know it.
Truly, I was hoping to avoid this tired argument for once.

You ignore a great deal of fun that's derived from trying different strategies based on the environment. Even Doom had places where one had to prepare for the inevitable trap; switching to the right weapon at the right time made the highest difficulties approachable.

If you'd like to assign a different name to this basic concept of forcibly digging through whatever areas the game provides you with, then by all means - as long as you'll consider that when taking out the "fight monsters, explore dungeons, and complete quests" Diablo III is left with nothing more than a few books of lore, and a notice stating: "You Have Won The Game".

I don't have to give it a new name.

The trap people fall into with those sorts of arguments is this:
"Repetition occurs, grind is only repetition, ergo, it's subjective. Stop whining about it. Work and reward is part of the appeal."

What they ignore is CONTEXT. What makes the boss fights in Megaman any different from the levels? Context. The game has three basic components which you will repeatedly use: Running, Jumping, Shooting.
You're still just running, jumping and shooting, but the game presents obstacles in different arrangements for you to overcome.

This is why over-generalized arguments of "Shooters are just about shooting things" do not work. Likewise, assuming "Diablo is about grinding for loot" simply means it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Grind in this sense, is simply forcing the player to retread old ground just for the sake of doing it. It's circular logic, which is a flimsy justification for padding out playtime.

If you want to see what gaming would be like without that changing context as incentive for player interaction, what a genuine "grind for levels, loot, and nothing else" game plays like, again, look up "Progress Quest".

I like Diablo 1 & 2's gameplay, but the problem arises when the game gives you ABSOLUTELY NO OPTION OTHER THAN TO PLAY THE LUCK GAME, AND GRIND. Forced repetition as an entryway to progress makes no sense. You've conquered that area by skill, but now you have to go do "work" in what is supposed to be a venture of amusement in order to progress?

That's like paying to get into an amusement park, but only being allowed to ride the rollercoasters once you've rode the Merry-Go-Round 100 times.

 

[Kargathia]

Spoiler: long, and completely irrelevant reply

I think we might have a bit of an issue with terminology here.

At it's very core Diablo is nothing more than repeatedly killing monsters that drop shiny stuff. Hence "grind".

You just described "Progress Quest", not Diablo.
If you actually think that's all Diablo is, then Google Progress Quest and play it.
I just saved you 50+ bucks.

There's quite a bit more to it than that; there is an element of strategy amidst the mindless murder and some sensibility when it comes to taking skills. I played every permutation of every skill build you could think of (no, I do not exaggerate), and it's surprising how certain interactions worked out.

I get the appeal of the monster-mash, really. I wouldn't have played for so long if I didn't. But to claim that Grinding for Loot is the ONLY PART OF DIABLO is just hand-waving everything else away.
Grind can mask and devalue legitimately GOOD gameplay.

This is not a pejorative term, nor even strictly indicative of the mundane, uninterrupted "kill this a gabazillion times to win" it has been associated with, due to bad execution by other games.

It says exactly as much as stating that one progresses through an FPS by repeatedly shooting stuff.

That's an over-generalization and you know it.
Truly, I was hoping to avoid this tired argument for once.

You ignore a great deal of fun that's derived from trying different strategies based on the environment. Even Doom had places where one had to prepare for the inevitable trap; switching to the right weapon at the right time made the highest difficulties approachable.

If you'd like to assign a different name to this basic concept of forcibly digging through whatever areas the game provides you with, then by all means - as long as you'll consider that when taking out the "fight monsters, explore dungeons, and complete quests" Diablo III is left with nothing more than a few books of lore, and a notice stating: "You Have Won The Game".

I don't have to give it a new name.

The trap people fall into with those sorts of arguments is this:
"Repetition occurs, grind is only repetition, ergo, it's subjective. Stop whining about it. Work and reward is part of the appeal."

What they ignore is CONTEXT. What makes the boss fights in Megaman any different from the levels? Context. The game has three basic components which you will repeatedly use: Running, Jumping, Shooting.
You're still just running, jumping and shooting, but the game presents obstacles in different arrangements for you to overcome.

This is why over-generalized arguments of "Shooters are just about shooting things" do not work. Likewise, assuming "Diablo is about grinding for loot" simply means it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Grind in this sense, is simply forcing the player to retread old ground just for the sake of doing it. It's circular logic, which is a flimsy justification for padding out playtime.

If you want to see what gaming would be like without that changing context as incentive for player interaction, what a genuine "grind for levels, loot, and nothing else" game plays like, again, look up "Progress Quest".

I like Diablo 1 & 2's gameplay, but the problem arises when the game gives you ABSOLUTELY NO OPTION OTHER THAN TO PLAY THE LUCK GAME, AND GRIND. Forced repetition as an entryway to progress makes no sense. You've conquered that area by skill, but now you have to go do "work" in what is supposed to be a venture of amusement in order to progress?

That's like paying to get into an amusement park, but only being allowed to ride the rollercoasters once you've rode the Merry-Go-Round 100 times.

Once again, this is the equivalent of charging a red flag - and equally pointless.

How much skill it takes, or how much variety it offers is completely and utterly irrelevant to my point - as I also believe I stated in two previous posts now.

The core concept of loot acquisition is "put in time and skill, and receive reward". Nothing more, nothing less.

Whether you enjoy the process of putting in effort is up to you, and the quality of the game. Your much-touted "Progress Quest" apparently does this quite badly, while Diablo tends to do it reasonably well.

And while this massive numbers game of drops is unlikely to yield you the perfect gear straight away, its iterations (kills + chests) are numerous enough to smooth out any bumps in luck, and give you a reasonably consistent total monetary worth in drops.
You vendor the worthless ones, and auction off the valuable ones. Combine the profits, buy yourself something nice, and your activities have still yielded you the reward you wanted.

Whether you refer to those activities as "grinding", "dungeon crawling", "playing the game", or "jabbadabbadowedoo" is up to you.

 

[Xanadu84]

There's honest intentions, but I'm curious how it will turn out. This is quite a interesting experiment.

I'm kind of excited for a different reason. D3 will be good. Almost certainly. Blizzard knows what they are doing. And I'm suspecting that the AH system will make them a lot of money. Which means, to reach a larger audience, I'm predicting a drastic price drop very, very quickly.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Once again, this is the equivalent of charging a red flag - and equally pointless.

How much skill it takes, or how much variety it offers is completely and utterly irrelevant to my point - as I also believe I stated in two previous posts now.

Circular Logic and hand-waving.
"It is, because it is."

I provide facts. I provide examples. They get hand-waved away "by magic".
So there's no point in continuing this; it just leads back to the same "Subjective" argument that dismisses the problem rather than addressing it.

I know for certain is that grind alone is not gameplay, and that any grind or busywork (or whatever you prefer to call it) is NOTHING but a detrimental element in game design that should be stamped out where possible, NOT embraced.

Because when you embrace grind as a surrogate for gameplay, you end up with Progress Quest.

 

[Kargathia]

Once again, this is the equivalent of charging a red flag - and equally pointless.

How much skill it takes, or how much variety it offers is completely and utterly irrelevant to my point - as I also believe I stated in two previous posts now.

Circular Logic and hand-waving.
"It is, because it is."

I provide facts. I provide examples. They get hand-waved away "by magic".
So there's no point in continuing this; it just leads back to the same "Subjective" argument that dismisses the problem rather than addressing it.

I know for certain is that grind alone is not gameplay, and that any grind or busywork (or whatever you prefer to call it) is NOTHING but a detrimental element in game design that should be stamped out where possible, NOT embraced.

Because when you embrace grind as a surrogate for gameplay, you end up with Progress Quest.

Please do realise I never have been, and still am not talking about how the gameplay is implemented. All I did was take as a given there is some kind of gameplay, which you happily took up as an excuse to go and bore me with a treatise on why mindlessly grinding mobs into oblivion is a bad thing.

Believe me, I know; I also have faced quests that tasked me with killing 500+ mobs. This, however, is a discussion about the Diablo III auction house, not your preferred way of getting loot and levels.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Please do realise I never have been, and still am not talking about how the gameplay is implemented. All I did was take as a given there is some kind of gameplay, which you happily took up as an excuse to go and bore me with a treatise on why mindlessly grinding mobs into oblivion is a bad thing.

Alright...sorry.
Been under a fair bit of stress this week. I honestly shouldn't even be trying to do my usual over-analysis here until after Finals at least.

Believe me, I know; I also have faced quests that tasked me with killing 500+ mobs. This, however, is a discussion about the Diablo III auction house, not your preferred way of getting loot and levels.

Right...

I bring it up because I know that Blizzard are trend-setters.
And the trends Diablo III will set worries me.

 

[Kargathia]

I bring it up because I know that Blizzard are trend-setters.
And the trends Diablo III will set worries me.

Selling ingame gear for real money is hardly a new development, but legitimising and taxing the entire process indeed is relatively uncharted territory.

The closest example I can think of right now would be EVE's tradeable subscription time, which so far has fared reasonably well.

One aspect I'm quite interested in, however, is not the money that Blizzard gets from this, but the potential profit that players might make. Up to date this would be the first game where players actually have the ability to recoup their purchase price by playing, and even make a profit on it.

I wouldn't even mind that becoming a trend ^_-

 

[Atmos Duality]

I wouldn't even mind that becoming a trend ^_-

It sounds good on paper, but my gut feeling doesn't agree.
Namely, even if the game pays for itself in the long run, isn't that LITERALLY turning a game into a job?

 

[Adjudicator]

Diablo 2 items are still being sold for real cash right now, Blizzard just wants to make it safer and easier for people who are already buying Unique Elites for 10s or 100s of dollars.

Are you joking?

They want to make money doing it, they do not give two shits about making it safer and easier.

Are you joking yourself? Have you heard of CS costs? That 90% of Blizzard employees are CS for WoW?

What do you think the single biggest source for CS problems is in WoW?

Jesus Christ. Safer and easier IS making them more money. By itself.

Drugs aren't a problem in the first place; the war on drugs you're referencing is based on a completely manufactured issue,

RMT isn't a problem either, any more than drugs. Or, for that matter, prostitution, gambling, booze, or any other activity which human society has tried to ban and fight wars against and which ALWAYS fails. The "war on RMT" Blizzard carried out in WoW failed. Every other company has failed. Eventually companies wise up and start facilitating it. The worse way to do it is with the cash shop, since that completely changes the economy. The best way to do it is like EVE- make it part of the economy. Tax and regulate- just like the government should be doing with drugs.

just like the prohibition, except by a different group of interests.

It's not analogous, and you didn't read what I said.

Sorry - directly analogous.

The only direct incentive Blizzard has now is to encourage more people to use dollars to buy phat lewt. Where you picked up on the dead economy and no fees thing is beyond me.

If people aren't having fun with however the economy ends up, they will stop playing and stop paying. Hence a dead, or broken economy, is no good to ANYONE.

As if without real money in the equation, an economy can't be sustained and the game can't be fun in the long run for some reason.

It doesn't matter whether they include real money or not. Real money is part of the equation whether you, they, or I like it or not. 20 years of online games should make that VERY obvious.

D2 went to shit because of the black market. In a way fairly similar to how places go to shit thanks to drug black markets or alcohol black markets. The black market encouraged crime, fraud, dupes, etc. And Blizzard wasn't exactly going to spend all their money policing it and fixing it when they had no ongoing revenue stream- they still put in some effort, but nowhere near what was required. Especially since people often got hacked or viruses or stolen credit cards by going to shady sites. You may say that's their fault- guess who has to deal with it? The rest of us and Blizzard, and it's human nature, you are not going to ban it and defeat it. The SAME exact thing happened in WoW AGAIN, as well as in other games of this type.

 

[Adjudicator]

Diablo 2 items are still being sold for real cash right now, Blizzard just wants to make it safer and easier for people who are already buying Unique Elites for 10s or 100s of dollars.

Are you joking?

They want to make money doing it, they do not give two shits about making it safer and easier.

Are you joking yourself? Have you heard of CS costs? That 90% of Blizzard employees are CS for WoW?

What do you think the single biggest source for CS problems is in WoW?

Jesus Christ. Safer and easier IS making them more money. By itself.

Umm yes, but only because they want to make money doing it.

They don't care about it being safer and easier for the consumer, they want to make money and that's why they did it.

They care about it being safer and easier for the consumer BECAUSE it makes them more money. That's why ANY company cares about their customers. Nintendo doesn't care about you personally, neither does Valve, or EA, or Blizzard.

How is that a bad thing for me as a consumer again?

 

[Adjudicator]

Diablo 2 items are still being sold for real cash right now, Blizzard just wants to make it safer and easier for people who are already buying Unique Elites for 10s or 100s of dollars.

Are you joking?

They want to make money doing it, they do not give two shits about making it safer and easier.

Are you joking yourself? Have you heard of CS costs? That 90% of Blizzard employees are CS for WoW?

What do you think the single biggest source for CS problems is in WoW?

Jesus Christ. Safer and easier IS making them more money. By itself.

Umm yes, but only because they want to make money doing it.

They don't care about it being safer and easier for the consumer, they want to make money and that's why they did it.

They care about it being safer and easier for the consumer BECAUSE it makes them more money. That's why ANY company cares about their customers.

How is that a bad thing for me as a consumer again?

You seem to think I'm arguing against that.

I was pointing out it's not done from the goodness of their hearts or to see the smiles of children.

I guess I don't understand why that's relevant. Companies almost never act out of those motivations alone! Bottom line is 99.9% of the time a consideration!