Blizzard "Trying Not to Oversexualize" Female Overwatch Characters

Sarah LeBoeuf

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Blizzard "Trying Not to Oversexualize" Female Overwatch Characters


Based on feedback from female employees and family members, Blizzard is trying to make its next IP more representative of all gamers.

Two days ago at Overwatch [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/tag/view/blizzcon%202014]. During a press conference for the forthcoming PC game, designer Chris Metzen revealed one of the developer's goals for Overwatch: avoiding the hyper-sexualization of female characters.

According to Kotaku [http://kotaku.com/blizzard-admits-to-over-sexualizing-women-trying-to-do-1656383872], Metzen said of the gender issue, "I think we're clear we're in an age where gaming is for everybody... Increasingly people want to feel represented from all walks of life, everywhere in the world. Boys and girls--everybody." As a result, Blizzard is "trying not to oversexualize the female characters" in Overwatch, a choice that was also influenced by the developer's female employees and Metzen's daughter. "She saw a World of Warcraft cinematic of the Dragon Aspects, and my daughter was like, 'Why are they all in swimsuits?' And I was like, 'I don't know. I don't know anymore.'"

This isn't to say that Overwatch--or any game--should cut out all female (and male, for that matter) characters with a hint of sexuality; but, in this era of boob-shaped armor and warrior women in metal bikini-esque outfits, "there's a lot of room for growth," as Metzen puts it. "We want girls to feel kick-butt. Equally represented." While admitting this is just the first step to a more representative and female-friendly industry, it's refreshing to hear about a major force in gaming making the effort.

Source: Kotaku [http://kotaku.com/blizzard-admits-to-over-sexualizing-women-trying-to-do-1656383872]

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Hazzard

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Well, that's nice, but I suppose it's sad that this seems to be news-worthy now.
 

Grizzly_Bear_1

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Considering this game is obviously designed for kids, there shouldn't be any revealing armour. It's not a big deal. If they are emphasizing this point so early on to get attention rather than talk about the game itself, it can't be very good, just a team fortress 2 knockoff.
 

Nimzabaat

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So one out of five female characters not being in a form fitting outfit counts as "trying"? That's interesting. Considering that the remaining characters are male gorilla, male tank (why no female counterpart? something like Shale from Dragon Age for example), non-gender specific robot/turret, male assassin dude trying too hard to be dark and mysterious, male cybord-yogi (so far my favorite), and lastly male somewhat sexy archer guy. Admittedly the real issue is with the viewer and not the content, but I can see some people having problems with this.
 

Baresark

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Haha, the source would be Kotaku.

That said: fine by me. It's super easy to avoid over-sexualization. You simply cover up all the bits that mark them female and treat your two genders the same. Guys where a sleeveless vest and an undershit, girls wearing a sleeveless vest and an undershirt. guys wearing baggy pants, girls wearing baggy pants. It's super simple.

The real challenge is going to be pleasing all the brain donors that do nothing but look for it. I'm sure they will still find plenty to complain about. I mean, I watched the video and for like 2 seconds this video followed a female character wearing tight pants and her ass filled most of the screen. That alone is enough to set off some of these people. And just for fun: If you took that archer guys outfit and stuck it on a girl, she would probably be consider over-sexualized. I'm just saying.... it is gonna be hard to please those types of people.

I do feel that comparisons to TF2 are 100% unavoidable though. I mean, it's the same kind of idea it looks like with cartoony characters and point captures and every class being unique and all... though Blizzard is not known for their hats, so that is kind of win in my camp anyway.
 

synobal

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Wish they'd just take out female characters at this point, all these stupid articles are not worth it. Linking to Kotaku also, surely the escapist has better standards?
 

nevarran

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Listen to Metzen, kids, and you'll go to heaven...

captcha: eat your dinner
 

josemlopes

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Ah, thats a nice one


In the end no one can really complain about how the character designs are, the artists are the ones to create them and those artists usually create both genders that end up falling in their own stereotypes. We can choose not to buy it but to be a nagging floating conscience of "No, dont do that, do this, I dont care what you (the one actually doing it) want, I care what I want" really doesnt help anyone.
 

nevarran

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Baresark said:
That said: fine by me. It's super easy to avoid over-sexualization. You simply cover up all the bits that mark them female and treat your two genders the same. Guys where a sleeveless vest and an undershit, girls wearing a sleeveless vest and an undershirt. guys wearing baggy pants, girls wearing baggy pants. It's super simple.
Better yet, put them all in monk robes... and add masks, so we can't see their skin color, you must cover the racist bases as well. And they should all talk with robot voices, a perfect 50/50 male/female sounding voices. I'm sure I'm missing something, but with enough efforts, I'm sure all can be pleased.
 

Erttheking

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synobal said:
Wish they'd just take out female characters at this point, all these stupid articles are not worth it. Linking to Kotaku also, surely the escapist has better standards?
Because art is something you have to work and suffer for and if you can't handle any criticism you probably should've picked a different career? Honestly, just because you don't care about these issues, doesn't mean other people don't. And if your biggest problem with this is that you're tired of reading all the articles about it, then frankly I think we're in a good place

OT: Overwatch is certainly a step in the right direction, I love the design for Tracer espically, but it's an example of "Evolution not Revolution". We've still got Widowmaker showing her boobs off, we've still got boob plates, we've still got all the female characters being attractive and obviously human, still limited body types (With the possible exception of Pahrah) all of the women being fairly small where as the guys can range from being small to huge, to being a gorilla or a robot.

Still I don't want to underplay the steps Blizzard is taking here and I am looking forward to this game. We've just got a long way to go.
 

BrotherRool

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Particularly nice since it's Blizzard. One of their developers through a proper hissy fit when RPS asked about some of the stripperific Heroes of the Swarm designs (they weren't even too bad, but the developer just said the stupidest things in response. Blizards PR team had to step in and give him a talking too)
 

PunkRex

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Just add a sexy dude and all points can be rendered mute, not that the Asian fella wasn't sexy, he's just not really sexual like the sniper girl.

Butt cereal though, that Pharah looks like a beast, DEATH FROM ABOVE!

Tracker looks like she has some interesting game mechanics, not to mention the English accent kind of tugged at my heart strings a little.
 

The Goat Tsar

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I like how racially diverse it is. Germans, Swedes, Egyptians, Indians, Nepalese... Pretty good so far. Just needs a few black and Hispanic characters and it'll be set.
 

josemlopes

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nevarran said:
Baresark said:
That said: fine by me. It's super easy to avoid over-sexualization. You simply cover up all the bits that mark them female and treat your two genders the same. Guys where a sleeveless vest and an undershit, girls wearing a sleeveless vest and an undershirt. guys wearing baggy pants, girls wearing baggy pants. It's super simple.
Better yet, put them all in monk robes... and add masks, so we can't see their skin color, you must cover the racist bases as well. And they should all talk with robot voices, a perfect 50/50 male/female sounding voices. I'm sure I'm missing something, but with enough efforts, I'm sure all can be pleased.
To be honest they could just have every class have a male and female model, like the clothing is almost the same but with both genders.
Team Fortress 2's community has already made most female versions of the classes and they are all very similar to the male models except different details (and gender of course).

Some of them




And Im not saying to make all the male characters first and then put female bodies inside, Im saying that for the female characters now to do a male version with a similar outfit (there are plenty of games out there with slim sexy, barely wearing anything, male dudes, especially Mobas)
 

Canadamus Prime

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Well I seemed to see a lot of very slender women in skin-tight outfits in a trailer for a game that's trying not to oversexulize it female characters.
 

Ishigami

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Baresark said:
That said: fine by me. It's super easy to avoid over-sexualization. You simply cover up all the bits that mark them female and treat your two genders the same.
Let?s all play as bricks! ? If everyone looks literally the same its fair all around.

Seriously if there is no difference between male and female then there is little point in having the option at all.
So let?s have sausage fest or a veg fest which looks like a sausage fest instead? awesome?

And oh my god the world is going down a female shows of a bit of cleavage or leg...
Instead of being glad that there is an actually new IP by a major developer who could easily rest upon their already established IPs instead, like let?s say Nintendo, you guys talk about rather modest designs and make that somehow the main concern.
Talking about getting your priorities straight eh?
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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BrotherRool said:
Particularly nice since it's Blizzard. One of their developers through a proper hissy fit when RPS asked about some of the stripperific Heroes of the Swarm designs (they weren't even too bad, but the developer just said the stupidest things in response. Blizards PR team had to step in and give him a talking too)
Ah yes, the infamous gender debate that RPS decided to dump on Game Director Duston Browder (For Heroes of The Storm, not SC2), let's see what sort of "stupidest things" he said as they were about to end the interview:


[PR motions that time is running low]
RPS: You have some interesting alternate outfits for heroes. Roller Derby Nova, especially, caught my eye. On its own, that?s totally fine ? just a silly, goofy thing. A one-off. But it got me thinking about how often MOBAs tend to hyper-sexualize female characters to a generally preposterous degree ? that is to say, make it the norm, not a one-off at all ? and StarCraft?s own, um, interesting focus choices as of late. How are you planning to approach all of that in Heroes?

Browder: Well, I mean, some of these characters, I would argue, are already hyper-sexualized in a sense. I mean, Kerrigan is wearing heels, right? We?re not sending a message to anybody. We?re just making characters who look cool. Our sensibilities are more comic book than anything else. That?s sort of where we?re at. But I?ll take the feedback. I think it?s very fair feedback.


-

So breaking it up for you and others, basically RPS asks how they're going to handle the oversexualization that other MOBA's have used regularly (LoL comes to mind).
Browder says it's not about sending a message, but that he'll take the feedback.

So far, not particularly stupid.

-

RPS: I have to add, though, that comics might not be the best point of reference for this sort of thing. I mean, it?s a medium that?s notorious ? often in a not-good way ? for sexing up female characters and putting them in some fairly gross situations.

Browder: We?re not running for President. We?re not sending a message. No one should look to our game for that.


-

Interviewer dumps his political view. Browder's response is apt, that there is no ill intention in this.

-

RPS: But it?s not even about a message. The goal is to let people have fun in an environment where they can feel awesome without being weirded out or even objectified. This is a genre about empowerment. Why shouldn?t everyone feel empowered? That?s what it?s about at the end of the day: letting everyone have a fair chance to feel awesome.

Browder: Uh-huh. Cool. Totally.

[PR says we've run over, tells me I have to leave]


-

Ah, Browder is dismissing the interviewer who is intent on having a political debate. What a stupid move, huh?
I mean, here we have a developer/game director who is out to make a fun and awesome game in his eyes, but he hasn't considered the sensibilities of everyone. What a stupid guy, eh? Doesn't he know that unless you're all-inclusive, you're cis-male scum that lives in your mom's basement? What a misogynist.

Sarcasm and assumptions aside, don't buy into or spread this ridiculous notion that Blizzard was out to be non-inclusive.
They're making games that they think are cool and here we have a "journalist" outright pressuring a developer on a political stance that's irrelevant to the game they're making.

It's click-bait journalism, just like this link-post to Kotaku.
If anyone else wants to read this shit from Rock, Paper, Shotgun, here it is [http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/11/22/blizzard-on-heroes-of-the-storm-female-designs-in-mobas/].
 

Subbies

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The Goat Tsar said:
I like how racially diverse it is. Germans, Swedes, Egyptians, Indians, Nepalese... Pretty good so far. Just needs a few black and Hispanic characters and it'll be set.

In the cinematic trailer, we see this image where there is indeed a black guy. Whether or not he'll be playable is up to guess, but I'm tempted to that that he will be, it's just that blizzard hasn't implemented the whole roster of heroes to pick from yet, hence why he wasn't seen in the gameplay trailer.
 

Rag Doll

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Well this makes sense. Why do yourself what the internet is happy to do for you?

As in, I have already seen Overwatch porn. By accident. And I hear there was some for Tracer floating around *hours* after the press conference ended.
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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Smilomaniac said:
BrotherRool said:
Particularly nice since it's Blizzard. One of their developers through a proper hissy fit when RPS asked about some of the stripperific Heroes of the Swarm designs (they weren't even too bad, but the developer just said the stupidest things in response. Blizards PR team had to step in and give him a talking too)
Ah yes, the infamous gender debate that RPS decided to dump on Game Director Duston Browder (For Heroes of The Storm, not SC2), let's see what sort of "stupidest things" he said as they were about to end the interview:


[PR motions that time is running low]
RPS: You have some interesting alternate outfits for heroes. Roller Derby Nova, especially, caught my eye. On its own, that?s totally fine ? just a silly, goofy thing. A one-off. But it got me thinking about how often MOBAs tend to hyper-sexualize female characters to a generally preposterous degree ? that is to say, make it the norm, not a one-off at all ? and StarCraft?s own, um, interesting focus choices as of late. How are you planning to approach all of that in Heroes?

Browder: Well, I mean, some of these characters, I would argue, are already hyper-sexualized in a sense. I mean, Kerrigan is wearing heels, right? We?re not sending a message to anybody. We?re just making characters who look cool. Our sensibilities are more comic book than anything else. That?s sort of where we?re at. But I?ll take the feedback. I think it?s very fair feedback.


-

So breaking it up for you and others, basically RPS asks how they're going to handle the oversexualization that other MOBA's have used regularly (LoL comes to mind).
Browder says it's not about sending a message, but that he'll take the feedback.

So far, not particularly stupid.

-

RPS: I have to add, though, that comics might not be the best point of reference for this sort of thing. I mean, it?s a medium that?s notorious ? often in a not-good way ? for sexing up female characters and putting them in some fairly gross situations.

Browder: We?re not running for President. We?re not sending a message. No one should look to our game for that.


-

Interviewer dumps his political view. Browder's response is apt, that there is no ill intention in this.

-

RPS: But it?s not even about a message. The goal is to let people have fun in an environment where they can feel awesome without being weirded out or even objectified. This is a genre about empowerment. Why shouldn?t everyone feel empowered? That?s what it?s about at the end of the day: letting everyone have a fair chance to feel awesome.

Browder: Uh-huh. Cool. Totally.

[PR says we've run over, tells me I have to leave]


-

Ah, Browder is dismissing the interviewer who is intent on having a political debate. What a stupid move, huh?
I mean, here we have a developer/game director who is out to make a fun and awesome game in his eyes, but he hasn't considered the sensibilities of everyone. What a stupid guy, eh? Doesn't he know that unless you're all-inclusive, you're cis-male scum that lives in your mom's basement? What a misogynist.

Sarcasm and assumptions aside, don't buy into or spread this ridiculous notion that Blizzard was out to be non-inclusive.
They're making games that they think are cool and here we have a "journalist" outright pressuring a developer on a political stance that's irrelevant to the game they're making.

It's click-bait journalism, just like this link-post to Kotaku.
If anyone else wants to read this shit from Rock, Paper, Shotgun, here it is [http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/11/22/blizzard-on-heroes-of-the-storm-female-designs-in-mobas/].

What a weird interview.

In regards to overwatch it wasn't really over sexualizing that I see as the issue. As someone else mentioned it's that they lacked the "all shapes and sizes" area on the female side of things. The girls are all "in the kitchen" combat stereotypes. I'm in the camp of breaking the glass ceiling on on sexualization rather than going inoffensive. What a girl can't be a big tatted up evil goblin? The guys are generally all over the place but the girls are generic. Thats disappointing.

I would label myself a feminist in the strictest terms, but there's a camp of people I think that aren't even sure what they're looking for but are shouting at the rooftops with GGGR about it and everything thats so wrong about everything. I think that RPS interview and whatever interview brought about this blizzard response came from that camp and while I'm about me some equality I would avoid association with that group at all costs.

Subbies said:
The Goat Tsar said:
I like how racially diverse it is. Germans, Swedes, Egyptians, Indians, Nepalese... Pretty good so far. Just needs a few black and Hispanic characters and it'll be set.

In the cinematic trailer, we see this image where there is indeed a black guy. Whether or not he'll be playable is up to guess, but I'm tempted to that that he will be, it's just that blizzard hasn't implemented the whole roster of heroes to pick from yet, hence why he wasn't seen in the gameplay trailer.
Thats encouraging, I hope I spoke too soon on the lack of diversity.
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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piscian said:
What a weird interview.

In regards to overwatch it wasn't really over sexualizing that I see as the issue. As someone else mentioned it's that they lacked the "all shapes and sizes" area on the female side of things. The girls are all "in the kitchen" combat stereotypes. I'm in the camp of breaking the glass ceiling on on sexualization rather than going inoffensive. What a girl can't be a big tatted up evil goblin? The guys are generally all over the place but the girls are generic. Thats disappointing.

I would label myself a feminist in the strictest terms, but there's a camp of people I think that aren't even sure what they're looking for but are shouting at the rooftops with GGGR about it and everything thats so wrong about everything. I think that RPS interview and whatever interview brought about this blizzard response came from that camp and while I'm about me some equality I would avoid association with that group at all costs.
That's good to hear, really.

Let me extend my hand and say I sympathize with anyone who wants to see more representation in games and that I think any viewpoint is just fine with me.
As long as we can talk about these things and we can try to understand eachother, there is no problem.

The exception is when somebody comes in and tells me that I'm outright wrong and labels me and the whole community I'm part of as hateful or bigoted and that we should do things a certain way, think a certain way and speak a certain way.
Then there's a problem and the bigotry is real, but it's coming from that person.

This lack of basic human decency and total lack of self-evaluation is staggering.

So thank you, for not being one of those people.
 

BrotherRool

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Smilomaniac said:
Ah, Browder is dismissing the interviewer who is intent on having a political debate. What a stupid move, huh?
I mean, here we have a developer/game director who is out to make a fun and awesome game in his eyes, but he hasn't considered the sensibilities of everyone. What a stupid guy, eh? Doesn't he know that unless you're all-inclusive, you're cis-male scum that lives in your mom's basement? What a misogynist.
See we're not going to go anywhere, because from my reading Browder was reacting exactly like you are, and I, well I dont consider that reaction smart =D The whole 'it's politics' thing is kind of BS. You're making a game for people and it's stupid to think that you don't have to think about the people you're making it for.
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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BrotherRool said:
Smilomaniac said:
Ah, Browder is dismissing the interviewer who is intent on having a political debate. What a stupid move, huh?
I mean, here we have a developer/game director who is out to make a fun and awesome game in his eyes, but he hasn't considered the sensibilities of everyone. What a stupid guy, eh? Doesn't he know that unless you're all-inclusive, you're cis-male scum that lives in your mom's basement? What a misogynist.
See we're not going to go anywhere, because from my reading Browder was reacting exactly like you are, and I, well I dont consider that reaction smart =D The whole 'it's politics' thing is kind of BS. You're making a game for people and it's stupid to think that you don't have to think about the people you're making it for.
You don't consider it smart, because you don't entertain the thought that your opinion might not be shared by others and more importantly, that people might even understand it and still not agree with it.
This is an insignificant topic to many, many people and to pressure it onto people is not only annoying, it's outright rude and disrespectful, because of the connotations that go along with it.

"You don't agree that there's sexism? You must be a misogynist, ignorant and/or bigoted."

My umbrage was with your reference to this interview that you first of all didn't remember correctly and likely exaggerated. He was being honest. You can certainly disagree with him, but to simply state that he was being (or saying something) stupid, is demeaning and shows your inability to consider another persons viewpoint; That this topic is overblown and not important for everyone else.
More importantly, it doesn't invalidate what others like or think.
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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Hazzard said:
Well, that's nice, but I suppose it's sad that this seems to be news-worthy now.
Well when a major publisher pulls off such a nice flying leap to the bandwagon.. it's news. Don't worry Blizzard I'm sure someone will have a mod to make those boobies jiggle properly within a month of your release..

Seriously Hyper sexualization? Over sexualization... anyone remember that what is considered sexy is a very personal thing? and that no matter what your female character looks like there are always going to be no less than 10 guys and 3 women that think she's OMG HAWT

But whatever...it's ironic though... they make a big deal of not pandering to one group in order to pander to another.
 

The Goat Tsar

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Subbies said:
The Goat Tsar said:
I like how racially diverse it is. Germans, Swedes, Egyptians, Indians, Nepalese... Pretty good so far. Just needs a few black and Hispanic characters and it'll be set.

In the cinematic trailer, we see this image where there is indeed a black guy. Whether or not he'll be playable is up to guess, but I'm tempted to that that he will be, it's just that blizzard hasn't implemented the whole roster of heroes to pick from yet, hence why he wasn't seen in the gameplay trailer.
That's awesome, it looks like there's a female robot in there as well, which would be the first non-human female character. I mean, I know robots don't have genders, but it looks like she'll have a female personality like the robot monk has a male personality.

If I get a choice of characters, I always prefer the black guy. I'm happy to see there is at least one. I just hope they don't take a super long time putting him the game (like Rexxar in HotS).
 

Saetha

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PunkRex said:
Just add a sexy dude and all points can be rendered mute, not that the Asian fella wasn't sexy, he's just not really sexual like the sniper girl.
Seriously, can we get some sexualization of Hanzo? a little bit? Please? Because daaaaaamn son. Hella.
 

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nevarran said:
Baresark said:
That said: fine by me. It's super easy to avoid over-sexualization. You simply cover up all the bits that mark them female and treat your two genders the same. Guys where a sleeveless vest and an undershit, girls wearing a sleeveless vest and an undershirt. guys wearing baggy pants, girls wearing baggy pants. It's super simple.
Better yet, put them all in monk robes... and add masks, so we can't see their skin color, you must cover the racist bases as well. And they should all talk with robot voices, a perfect 50/50 male/female sounding voices. I'm sure I'm missing something, but with enough efforts, I'm sure all can be pleased.
You really don't know how it works, do you?

Since you just suggested that the game have nothing but straight white male characters and all (seriously, you'll have people argue that any character that isn't evidently not straight, white, or male is automatically those things by default).
 

Phrozenflame500

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Eh, that's good. If they're making TF2.5 they'd better nail the interesting and colourful cast of characters.
 

Shayman

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The result is pretty badass male and female character designs. Articles don't do Chris Metzen's passionate response to this question justice.
 

oldtaku

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That's an interesting thing to say given that one of the female chars has an ass gap in her armor so we can see her lovingly crafted tight butt better.
 

Aerosteam

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This is good, but it sucks how this is actually something a company would speak out on. :/
 

Jetfan007

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Meanwhile, Sarkeesian and McIntosh are ALREADY calling the game sexist based on promo material alone.

Seriously, haven't people learned from this past year/two years that judging a game based on early promo material is a bad idea? Did they forget about Aliens: Colonial Marines, Watch_Dogs, Destiny, etc?

There is *no winning* with these people. None at all.

Unrelated note, wanted to post this on facebook comments but couldn't. So here I am. Meh.
 

Kargathia

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BigTuk said:
Hazzard said:
Well, that's nice, but I suppose it's sad that this seems to be news-worthy now.
Well when a major publisher pulls off such a nice flying leap to the bandwagon.. it's news. Don't worry Blizzard I'm sure someone will have a mod to make those boobies jiggle properly within a month of your release..

Seriously Hyper sexualization? Over sexualization... anyone remember that what is considered sexy is a very personal thing? and that no matter what your female character looks like there are always going to be no less than 10 guys and 3 women that think she's OMG HAWT

But whatever...it's ironic though... they make a big deal of not pandering to one group in order to pander to another.
I wouldn't call it "pandering" when you're trying not to alienate part of your customerbase. That is, if they're sincere about this, and not - as you said - merely hitching a ride on the bandwagon.

All things considered, the jiggle-mod-in-a-month is the best possible scenario. It's not forced on anyone, but whomever likes their characters stripperific will be able to do so.

oldtaku said:
That's an interesting thing to say given that one of the female chars has an ass gap in her armor so we can see her lovingly crafted tight butt better.
Yea.... don't get me wrong, I loved the general aesthetic of their trailers so far, but if this is "less sexualised", they really have a loooooooong way ahead of them.
 

Shadow-Phoenix

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I find the new IP already has good support for female characters regardless of their class.

I'm also not surprised that this article has more comments due to the mention of "female characters" compared to the Blizzard documentary which I feel was more worth the comments or at least watch than this, I feel it's a matter of time before this site becomes non caring about gaming and more about female representation, a good chunk of the gaming and off topic sections are already saturated with that topic and it's only because of what transpired this year, you can say "it'll die down in a few months", no it won't, it hasn't died down at all and isn't showing any signs, I'm all for equality and equal representation but I'm not all for sites like this becoming nothing but single topic discussions that aren't about the games themselves.
 

McElroy

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That Widowmaker sure has a nice ass. Seriously 04:37 in the cinematic trailer, check it out.

Hold on, what was the topic? Widowmaker is already sexy, no need to oversexualize her at all! Win-win!

oldtaku said:
That's an interesting thing to say given that one of the female chars has an ass gap in her armor so we can see her lovingly crafted tight butt better.
That's correct, but the ass gap is still within acceptable limits. A 17.4% increase in either butt volume or the area of the ass gap would result in oversexualization. It's simple mathematics.
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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Kargathia said:
BigTuk said:
Hazzard said:
Well, that's nice, but I suppose it's sad that this seems to be news-worthy now.
Well when a major publisher pulls off such a nice flying leap to the bandwagon.. it's news. Don't worry Blizzard I'm sure someone will have a mod to make those boobies jiggle properly within a month of your release..

Seriously Hyper sexualization? Over sexualization... anyone remember that what is considered sexy is a very personal thing? and that no matter what your female character looks like there are always going to be no less than 10 guys and 3 women that think she's OMG HAWT

But whatever...it's ironic though... they make a big deal of not pandering to one group in order to pander to another.
I wouldn't call it "pandering" when you're trying not to alienate part of your customerbase. That is, if they're sincere about this, and not - as you said - merely hitching a ride on the bandwagon.

All things considered, the jiggle-mod-in-a-month is the best possible scenario. It's not forced on anyone, but whomever likes their characters stripperific will be able to do so.

oldtaku said:
That's an interesting thing to say given that one of the female chars has an ass gap in her armor so we can see her lovingly crafted tight butt better.
Yea.... don't get me wrong, I loved the general aesthetic of their trailers so far, but if this is "less sexualised", they really have a loooooooong way ahead of them.

Not alienate well let's put it this way.. which is fairer.. thoseoversexualized characters that appeal half their base and modesty mods for those that don't ... or non sexualized figures that appeal to the otgher half and jiggle mods for the other half?


See this is why the discussion on such things goes nowhere.. it is pretty much a binary question.. who do you please the side you don't pick is always going to resent you foir making them do more workregardless of which side it is. Plus we've kinda seen the blizzacti isn't a big fan of their games being modded by third parties I mean look at D3?

Otherwise.. I am okay with mods and such seriously I am... but
 

garjian

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nevarran said:
Baresark said:
That said: fine by me. It's super easy to avoid over-sexualization. You simply cover up all the bits that mark them female and treat your two genders the same. Guys where a sleeveless vest and an undershit, girls wearing a sleeveless vest and an undershirt. guys wearing baggy pants, girls wearing baggy pants. It's super simple.
Better yet, put them all in monk robes... and add masks, so we can't see their skin color, you must cover the racist bases as well. And they should all talk with robot voices, a perfect 50/50 male/female sounding voices. I'm sure I'm missing something, but with enough efforts, I'm sure all can be pleased.
They're still labelled as female by their name and character profile.

I've seen enough reports of "See in this gameplay footage how this woman is brutally shot to death, and the player receives a point" to know there are people offended by the simple inclusion of females in any form.

I'm surprised we haven't heard anything about the mass genocide of all these nameless, faceless, unimportant male henchmen we all seem perfectly happy to slaughter, to be honest.
 

Jetfan007

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garjian said:
nevarran said:
Baresark said:
That said: fine by me. It's super easy to avoid over-sexualization. You simply cover up all the bits that mark them female and treat your two genders the same. Guys where a sleeveless vest and an undershit, girls wearing a sleeveless vest and an undershirt. guys wearing baggy pants, girls wearing baggy pants. It's super simple.
Better yet, put them all in monk robes... and add masks, so we can't see their skin color, you must cover the racist bases as well. And they should all talk with robot voices, a perfect 50/50 male/female sounding voices. I'm sure I'm missing something, but with enough efforts, I'm sure all can be pleased.
They're still labelled as female by their name and character profile.

I've seen enough reports of "See in this gameplay footage how this woman is brutally shot to death, and the player receives a point" to know there are people offended by the simple inclusion of females in any form.
Meanwhile, if there are no female characters the same people will be just as upset.

If they want equality, they *should* be campaigning for 50% of all faceless henchmen to be women.
 

EternallyBored

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Jun 17, 2013
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BigTuk said:
Not alienate well let's put it this way.. which is fairer.. thoseoversexualized characters that appeal half their base and modesty mods for those that don't ... or non sexualized figures that appeal to the otgher half and jiggle mods for the other half?


See this is why the discussion on such things goes nowhere.. it is pretty much a binary question.. who do you please the side you don't pick is always going to resent you foir making them do more workregardless of which side it is. Plus we've kinda seen the blizzacti isn't a big fan of their games being modded by third parties I mean look at D3?

Otherwise.. I am okay with mods and such seriously I am... but
It's really not a binary question, the thread in gaming discussion where many of the posters that regularly fall on the oversexualization side of the discussion are commenting about how they like the designs for some of the characters here is proof enough of that. If Blizzard adds some more diversity to the female body shapes with future characters, you will likely see the majority of people on both sides largely satisfied.

You will still get complaints form the fringes, people complaining that any sexy armor is unacceptable, and others accusing Blizzard of pandering to "feminists" because every single female model isn't sexy in exactly the way they want, but that's true of anything, you are never going to completely shut every last idiot on either side up entirely.

Treating it as a binary state limits plenty of options that will satisfy the vast majority of people that lie between the two extremes. There are plenty of games that come out where one side or the other tries to complain about it, but because it doesn't really set off most people on either side in a big way, those complaints are quickly discarded and lost in favor of games with more controversial material to grab on to.
 

loa

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Well that's nice that they're trying.
A bit more variation in bodytypes would be nice too.
Right now there's only 1.
Just give one of the robots or maybe that gorilla a female voice and there you go.
 

mad825

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*looks at thumbnail for new article* Oh, so it's okay to reduce the sexiness of females but males are apparently an exception? That's kind of sexist.
 

bjj hero

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I wonder what hell say when his daughter asks "why does the pale lady not need armour on her titties?"

They dont look much different than most other female charecters. Amazing figures in tight outfits. This is hardly the golem in dragonage were talking about.
 

Dalrien

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Order of Sexualization because why not:

1.Widowmaker
2.Symmetra
3.Mercy
4.Pharah

Widowmaker seems to be the only "offensive" character model though I suppose people don't care.
 

Flammablezeus

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Trying not to oversexualise? How about, I dunno, just don't do it? Seriously, it's just silly and always takes me out of the game completely. I haven't been able to take games that do this seriously since I was very young.
 

Artaneius

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How sad that gaming companies have to be forced to announce this kind of statement in the vain attempt to "appease" gamers with political and social agendas... Makes me very depressed that we allowed RL social issues to enter gaming communities and culture. Someone please make me a time machine where I can stay permanently in the 80s-early 00s gaming forums.
 

Darmy647

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...I know these comments are mostly speaking the mind about the sexualizations but...you know, I've YET to see gameplay for this game and at all, and let me just say i am DAMN impressed.
 

Z of the Na'vi

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Apr 27, 2009
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A brand new, super-looking IP is announced from Blizzard and all the lot of you want to talk about is how much the Widowmaker's ass offends you. Sure, let's not talk about the aesthetics of the game, or the varied approach to the classes (I speak as a TF2 player and ex-WoW veteran).

No, how the women are portrayed is the hot-topic.


You guys might not realize this, but sexy women exist and they know it. Blizzard creates game worlds that are extremely fantastical in nature. In these fantasy settings, women are presented to show off their bodies. It has been this way for years. I don't give a rat's ass what the characters look like except to identify them on the other side of my crosshair.

Really, the fact that this statement from Blizzard had to be given at all is kind of sad, really. The game looks like a grand ol' time. Let's just enjoy it for what it is and probably what will be: a game.
 

Dogstile

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Christ this is news? Its one character out of a fuck load. Its a cool character design, the way it all comes together will be instantly recognisable and it goes with the character name. Its a gimmick, get over it.
 

JarinArenos

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garjian said:
I've seen enough reports of "See in this gameplay footage how this woman is brutally shot to death, and the player receives a point" to know there are people offended by the simple inclusion of females in any form.

I'm surprised we haven't heard anything about the mass genocide of all these nameless, faceless, unimportant male henchmen we all seem perfectly happy to slaughter, to be honest.
The typical problem is that you have female death being sexualized, not that there's any existence of female enemies at all. That's a vitally important distinction. Female antagonists can be awesome, and there's nothing wrong with female mooks as long as they're not dressed in bikinis and die in porn poses.

On the topic of faceless henchmen... you might guess from my previous paragraph that I'm all for balancing out this particular population. But then again, I'm all for a (non jack-thompsan-esque) conversation about the need for games to have the slaughter of so many faceless mooks in the first place. Violent video games can exist, sure (god knows I've enjoyed plenty of them)... but is it seriously so difficult to come up with game mechanics that rely on something other than insane levels of mass murder? Indie gaming has some interesting examples in this area... but I have trouble remembering the last major triple-a game release that didn't involve A) Killing large swathes of enemies, or B) Licensed sports properties.
 

NiPah

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Flammablezeus said:
Trying not to oversexualise? How about, I dunno, just don't do it? Seriously, it's just silly and always takes me out of the game completely. I haven't been able to take games that do this seriously since I was very young.
They do it because there's a larger market for people who like sexy characters then those who think it's silly.
But companies always like to test the waters so to say, maybe the market is changing a bit, I do hope this does well...
Not that I'll ever play it.
 

dragonswarrior

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Artaneius said:
Someone please make me a time machine where I can stay permanently in the 80s-early 00s gaming forums.
Yes. Please. And then stay there.

Z of the Na said:
Really, the fact that this statement from Blizzard had to be given at all is kind of sad, really. The game looks like a grand ol' time. Let's just enjoy it for what it is and probably what will be: a game.
Ah of course. We should just ignore the enormous section of the population that really enjoys playing video games but is bothered or made uncomfortable by the fact that everyone that shares their gender all have the same unrepresentative body type that allows for zero power fantasy from said gender and all dress in clothing that is more appropriate at a burlesque show than a battlefield.

I mean clearly they should just get over themselves and enjoy the games because you enjoy them. You aren't bothered by it so despite the enormous difference in various human psyche's and the fact that such statements are the very fucking definition of male privilege they should give up on an issue that is clearly only in their imaginations and stop asking for anything because it's mildly annoying for you.

Yep. Totally cool man. Totally cool.
 

Z of the Na'vi

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dragonswarrior said:
Ah of course. We should just ignore the enormous section of the population that really enjoys playing video games but is bothered or made uncomfortable by the fact that everyone that shares their gender all have the same unrepresentative body type that allows for zero power fantasy from said gender and all dress in clothing that is more appropriate at a burlesque show than a battlefield.

I mean clearly they should just get over themselves and enjoy the games because you enjoy them. You aren't bothered by it so despite the enormous difference in various human psyche's and the fact that such statements are the very fucking definition of male privilege they should give up on an issue that is clearly only in their imaginations and stop asking for anything because it's mildly annoying for you.

Yep. Totally cool man. Totally cool.
Well, I'm just glad somebody here sees things the way I do.
 

jackpipsam

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Sarah LeBoeuf said:
"She saw a World of Warcraft cinematic of the Dragon Aspects, and my daughter was like, 'Why are they all in swimsuits?' And I was like, 'I don't know. I don't know anymore.'"
This. Just this.
Hopefully as gaming goes on we'll have a lot less of this nonsense.
I am fully supportive of Blizzard desexualizing characters, it's just ridiculous as it is now.
I mean it wasn't even a range of swimsuits, it was just all stupid looking g-strings.
 

Dogstile

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dragonswarrior said:
Ah of course. We should just ignore the enormous section of the population that really enjoys playing video games but is bothered or made uncomfortable by the fact that everyone that shares their gender all have the same unrepresentative body type that allows for zero power fantasy from said gender and all dress in clothing that is more appropriate at a burlesque show than a battlefield.

Yep. Totally cool man. Totally cool.


Not all the characters are revealing.



As a white male, the above body type is representative of the population of people that will be playing this game.



These robes are exactly what I would wear to a battlefield with guns.
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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The Goat Tsar said:
I like how racially diverse it is. Germans, Swedes, Egyptians, Indians, Nepalese... Pretty good so far. Just needs a few black and Hispanic characters and it'll be set.
There's actually a few characters in the cinematic trailer that have been mentioned but haven't been revealed, so we're likely to be seeing more characters.

A trend I am enjoying though - not one american on the list. Usually "multi-national" really just means "americans and british people and once in a while somebody from a third European nation".

Jetfan007 said:
Meanwhile, Sarkeesian and McIntosh are ALREADY calling the game sexist based on promo material alone.
I'd like some actual reference for Sarkeesian on this, since I haven't seen her mention anything remotely involving the game. Additionally, no accusations of sexism. Specifically, McIntosh's point is, as summarized in this tweet:

"The gaming imperative: Men can be ugly, heavy or weird. But all female characters must adhere to conventionally attractive beauty standards."

When was the last time you saw a character of significance - not even a playable character, just somebody significant, where they were a visibly elderly woman without having some lore reason like "well actually..." to explain why they're still attractive? Not even Bioware passes, as Flemeth goes from this:


to this:


Notice some of the more obvious changes, like less wrinkles (which actually doesn't make sense within the context of the game, since she does age like a normal human being), hair that isn't gray and dirty, skin-tight outfit, boob window in otherwise sensible armour.

There's a point to be made. Really the only AAA developers I've seen pass this is Gearbox with Borderlands 2, and even then, the female characters are considered conventionally attractive. People like Ellie aren't playable characters.

There is *no winning* with these people. None at all.
Sure there is. You'll notice that for that how supposedly these people are super politically correct, they trip on their feet in adoration for Saints Row 3, 4, and Sunset Overdrive.

garjian said:
I've seen enough reports of "See in this gameplay footage how this woman is brutally shot to death, and the player receives a point" to know there are people offended by the simple inclusion of females in any form.
Context, because who needs it, amirite? So much easier to not try to understand and intentionally misrepresent somebody's point.

BigTuk said:
Not alienate well let's put it this way.. which is fairer.. thoseoversexualized characters that appeal half their base and modesty mods for those that don't ... or non sexualized figures that appeal to the otgher half and jiggle mods for the other half?
Given that a lot of the male audience is uncomfortable with oversexualization, that if somebody was product shopping for sexual content they'd find much better places than gaming to get it, and much better games that feature it than something from a AAA game dev, and that its not exactly polarizing to not use sex appeal in your product while using sex appeal does polarize the group of people being objectified, I'd say that the latter is much more fair.

See this is why the discussion on such things goes nowhere.. it is pretty much a binary question.. who do you please the side you don't pick is always going to resent you foir making them do more workregardless of which side it is.
If your playerbase is going to resent you for not giving all the female character DD cup sizes and clothing that barely covers the nipples, then maybe perhaps the artists are using good judgment in separating themselves from that playerbase and instead seeking a more reliable audience. You know, this "artistic freedom" that everybody beats on about to the point that basic criticism and critique of games and development studios suddenly becomes unacceptable.
 

Jenvas1306

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Ive got a little look at overwatch and I like it.
I really despise the way all female League of Legends characters looks the same and have "sexy" as one of their primary attributes. I also dislike TF2 being a sausage fest.
I am however totally fine with characters being sexy, as long as it doesn't get into the way of their job and doesn't comprimise them being badass. (it also helps if its not just the women being focused on in such a way especially in promotional art)
Overwatch has an interesting looking rooster of characters.

TDLR: sexy is fine in the right place and the right amount.

But now I gotta see more of actual gameplay. after all: its a game.
 

Jetfan007

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JarinArenos said:
The typical problem is that you have female death being sexualized, not that there's any existence of female enemies at all. That's a vitally important distinction. Female antagonists can be awesome, and there's nothing wrong with female mooks as long as they're not dressed in bikinis and die in porn poses.

On the topic of faceless henchmen... you might guess from my previous paragraph that I'm all for balancing out this particular population. But then again, I'm all for a (non jack-thompsan-esque) conversation about the need for games to have the slaughter of so many faceless mooks in the first place. Violent video games can exist, sure (god knows I've enjoyed plenty of them)... but is it seriously so difficult to come up with game mechanics that rely on something other than insane levels of mass murder? Indie gaming has some interesting examples in this area... but I have trouble remembering the last major triple-a game release that didn't involve A) Killing large swathes of enemies, or B) Licensed sports properties.
To the bolded point, do you believe ragdoll physics to be sexist? 'Cause the only time you'll ever see "porn poses" is in a game with ragdoll physics or poorly implemented 'realistic' physics. Is bad coding sexist?

On henchmen, many games have done exactly that. Does that mean that there shouldn't be games with henchmen? Are henchmen a problem? Are henchmen in movies, comics, TV, books, etc a problem? Should every character in a story be named, with a full backstory?
 

Johkmil

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Metzen said:
We want girls to feel kick-butt.
This should be the core mantra for the development of any female playable character in such a genre, as it can lead to improvements in presentation and representation without losing sight of the main goal: making a video game.
Make characters that fulfill their function regardless of whomever the player is, and most of the problems will work themselves out on the way. Appeal to new audiences without stooping to the lowest common denominator. Sexiness might display confidence or jiggle physics - a character that is designed as a female power fantasy will almost certainly still be attractive, but with better posture and stronger head on her shoulders.
 

The Lunatic

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Fine with me.

Admittedly, it does feel a little forced. But, whatever, it's their artistic choice and all that.

I'd prefer less "Robots and brutish monsters are always male unless it's a spider." though.

However, I do wish them luck in convincing the professional victims and rampant complainers. I'm sure they'll find somebody to whine about.
 

Flammablezeus

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NiPah said:
Flammablezeus said:
Trying not to oversexualise? How about, I dunno, just don't do it? Seriously, it's just silly and always takes me out of the game completely. I haven't been able to take games that do this seriously since I was very young.
They do it because there's a larger market for people who like sexy characters then those who think it's silly.
But companies always like to test the waters so to say, maybe the market is changing a bit, I do hope this does well...
Not that I'll ever play it.
Is there any evidence for that? Or is it an assumption because so many popular games also happen to have oversexualised characters? I've enjoyed lots of games that do this, but I would definitely enjoy most of them a lot more if the characters were even remotely believable.

I used to just assume that a lot of devs have weird kinks and since the games sell well, they don't feel the need to stop doing it. Then again, in recent years I would attribute it more to publishers trying to cater to prepubescent children (I'm not using it as a derogatory term) like they've been doing with most aspects of recent games.
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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MarsAtlas said:
You do realize that what you've said amounts to. :

"People who agfree with my outlooks are more deserving of having their needs met and are better people than those that don't"

You've also said that there is something wrong or improper about any female character that just so happens to have DD's and likes wearing airy fashions... so if you're a female who happens to have DD cups and a nudist exhibitionist tendencies.. tough luck you do not deserve to represented in games.

Pardon me for not being one to pat blizzard on the bat for their efforts at doing entirely nothing beyond the clever choice of adjectives. Their female characters certainly aren't oversexualized or hyper sexualized, they're just regular sexualized as can be clearly seed by the sexualization index scale. over , hyper, etc.. these imply that there's some objective measure in existence for the thing.

All this is is a clever PR spin by picking the right adjectives to describe something you did already.

Sorry I am not so easily impressed Blizzard... wake me up when you actually do something that can be evaluated.
 

BX3

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That's cool I guess.

Seems like a weird thing to "try" to do, though. Just make a game full of character designs where sex appeal isn't blatantly the primary focus of it (unless that's the selling point ala DOA, in which case go nuts). If sexy happens, then it just happens. Doesn't seem like a huge thing to me.


Captcha: "Thank You"
Looks like the ad generators agree with me.
 

Ladylotus

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Jenvas1306 said:
Ive got a little look at overwatch and I like it.
I really despise the way all female League of Legends characters looks the same and have "sexy" as one of their primary attributes. I also dislike TF2 being a sausage fest.
I am however totally fine with characters being sexy, as long as it doesn't get into the way of their job and doesn't comprimise them being badass. (it also helps if its not just the women being focused on in such a way especially in promotional art)
Overwatch has an interesting looking rooster of characters.

TDLR: sexy is fine in the right place and the right amount.

But now I gotta see more of actual gameplay. after all: its a game.
To be fair, there is (or was) someone on the League team who was trying. Annie, Kayle, Diana, Tristana, and several others are fairly well done, without oversexualization.

And then there's characters like Janna, Caitlyn, or Cassiopeia, who have no reason for the way they are dressed.

That being said, I still dislike the fact that so many characters are oversexualized, and that female characters who aren't the 'normal' model are few and far between.
 

Erttheking

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The Lunatic said:
Fine with me.

Admittedly, it does feel a little forced. But, whatever, it's their artistic choice and all that.

I'd prefer less "Robots and brutish monsters are always male unless it's a spider." though.

However, I do wish them luck in convincing the professional victims and rampant complainers. I'm sure they'll find somebody to whine about.
Really? Having five female characters is "forced". The Buddhist robot, that's perfectly fine, the Asian man on a modern battlefield with a bow, nothing wrong with that, the intelligent glasses wearing gorilla from the moon, fits in perfectly naturally, but the female characters are "forced"?

Don't talk about rampant complainers or professional victims in the same post you declare the inclusion of female characters "forced".
 

The Lunatic

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erttheking said:
Really? Having five female characters is "forced". The Buddhist robot, that's perfectly fine, the Asian man on a modern battlefield with a bow, nothing wrong with that, the intelligent glasses wearing gorilla from the moon, fits in perfectly naturally, but the female characters are "forced"?

Don't talk about rampant complainers or professional victims in the same post you declare the inclusion of female characters "forced".
Sorry, I was talking about the statement, not the characters themselves.

I explained that awfully.
 

Folji

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People keep freaking out over oversexualized female characters in games lately, what about oversexualized male characters? No? Weeeeell, guess not. It's only ever about the oversexualization of females.
 

Ticklefist

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My 60 year old mom juts her hip. Do you guys need me to call her and tell her to stop being sexy?

I should be clear though, I agree with what Chris is saying and the example he gives. I think any mature person can recall a time when they found these things a lot less offensive than they do now.
 

Erttheking

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The Lunatic said:
erttheking said:
Really? Having five female characters is "forced". The Buddhist robot, that's perfectly fine, the Asian man on a modern battlefield with a bow, nothing wrong with that, the intelligent glasses wearing gorilla from the moon, fits in perfectly naturally, but the female characters are "forced"?

Don't talk about rampant complainers or professional victims in the same post you declare the inclusion of female characters "forced".
Sorry, I was talking about the statement, not the characters themselves.

I explained that awfully.
I take everything I said back and apologize.
 

Erttheking

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Folji said:
People keep freaking out over oversexualized female characters in games lately, what about oversexualized male characters? No? Weeeeell, guess not. It's only ever about the oversexualization of females.
Er...could you please point out an example of a sexualized male character? A couple just so I can get a feel of what you're talking about?

Because while I'm sure they exist, I'm pretty sure there's not that many of them.
 

Ambitiousmould

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Good. Not really anything else to add. It seems to be a pretty diverse cast of characters.

I was more bothered by the attempt to make a British character. It's like Blizzard's whole knowledge of England comes from watching Oliver! one time. To be honest I found it pretty funny, if a bit cringe-worthy.
 

The Lunatic

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Folji said:
People keep freaking out over oversexualized female characters in games lately, what about oversexualized male characters? No? Weeeeell, guess not. It's only ever about the oversexualization of females.
It's kinda amusing to see people try and claims that's a "Power Fantasy" as if the same couldn't be said about sexualised females.

They're basically saying "Yeah, men should feel empowered by being oversexualised, but for women it's a bad thing!".
 

Folji

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erttheking said:
Folji said:
People keep freaking out over oversexualized female characters in games lately, what about oversexualized male characters? No? Weeeeell, guess not. It's only ever about the oversexualization of females.
Er...could you please point out an example of a sexualized male character? A couple just so I can get a feel of what you're talking about?

Because while I'm sure they exist, I'm pretty sure there's not that many of them.
Well, since we're already on the subject of Blizzard here, what about Hanzo? C'mon, that's a gorgeous looking man right there. What about Blizzard general representation of male characters, those square-jawed, muscle-bound figured sculpted in the image of gods as an example of a proper physique? From Death to Chris Redfield and the always mentioned He-Man; guys whose bodies stand beyond any realistic expectation are pretty much all over, but no-one ever pays much attention to them. Characters whose bodies were obviously made for girls to enjoy and for guys to aspire to, kind of like the tight-fit and body-showing bikini suits of female characters tends to be the other way around--guys enjoy them, girls aspire to them.

At least, that's the mentality. Because clearly girls don't aspire to them, they find them oversexualized and just generally outrageous. But do guys ever make much of a fuss when the male character has a body beyond anything they could realistically be expected to have themselves? They don't tend to make that much of a fuss.

But I guess that comes, like Lunatic mentioned, down to oversexualized females coming across as just plain sex objects, while the oversexualized males are... "power fantasy" symbols. The dominant display of muscles and glory. Eesh.

No-one looked at 300, or its sequel, and cried oversexualization of men, did they? Of course not.

http://i.imgur.com/rwtta2q.png
 

Johkmil

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The Lunatic said:
Folji said:
People keep freaking out over oversexualized female characters in games lately, what about oversexualized male characters? No? Weeeeell, guess not. It's only ever about the oversexualization of females.
It's kinda amusing to see people try and claims that's a "Power Fantasy" as if the same couldn't be said about sexualised females.

They're basically saying "Yeah, men should feel empowered by being oversexualised, but for women it's a bad thing!".
There is a marked difference between a female power fantasy and an oversexualized female character.
A quick (hypotetical) test for female characters:
- If the generic female calls her ridiculous, and the generic male calls her sexy, the character might be oversexualized.
- If the generic female calls her sexy, and the generic male calls her sexy, the character is tastefully sexy.
- If the generic female calls her badass, and the generic male calls her sexy, the character is a genuine power fantasy.

There is only a false dichotomy between a character that is sexy to men and a character that makes "girls feel kick-butt."
A true power fantasy is both.
 

Erttheking

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The Lunatic said:
Folji said:
People keep freaking out over oversexualized female characters in games lately, what about oversexualized male characters? No? Weeeeell, guess not. It's only ever about the oversexualization of females.
It's kinda amusing to see people try and claims that's a "Power Fantasy" as if the same couldn't be said about sexualised females.

They're basically saying "Yeah, men should feel empowered by being oversexualised, but for women it's a bad thing!".
There's a bit of a difference between the two characters. There's more to being sexualized than just showing off skin. It's in the way the characters hold themselves and act. For example, a sexualized woman.
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140216223255/dragons-crown/images/f/f5/DC_-_Sorceress.png
Holds herself in a position designed to show off her ass legs and tits all in one shot, a position that looks very uncomfortable to hold and I can't think of any situation were a real life person would hold it., with a rather blank, almost empty "Fuck me" expression on her face. Now compare this to a empowered female. (Warning, a little NSFW)
http://i.imgur.com/bT86m3z.jpg
Ironically she shows off even more skin than the sorceress, but I wouldn't call her sexualized. A firm pose, swords in each hand, a look of anger on her face, a little bit of muscle and surrounded by a harem of men. Less "Fuck me" and more "I'm gonna fuck YOU"

For the sake of comparison. An empowered male.
http://natefury.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/conan-1.jpg
And a sexualized male.
http://i.imgur.com/GaNdaFQ.jpg

Same thing. Empowered male says "I'm gonna fuck YOU". Sexualized male says "Fuck me."

Really the difference between sexualized empowered characters is that sexualized characters exist for the convenience of others, while empowered characters exist for their own benefit.

I know I'm gonna get a ration of shit for this but...there you have it.
 

Erttheking

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Folji said:
erttheking said:
Folji said:
People keep freaking out over oversexualized female characters in games lately, what about oversexualized male characters? No? Weeeeell, guess not. It's only ever about the oversexualization of females.
Er...could you please point out an example of a sexualized male character? A couple just so I can get a feel of what you're talking about?

Because while I'm sure they exist, I'm pretty sure there's not that many of them.
Well, since we're already on the subject of Blizzard here, what about Hanzo? C'mon, that's a gorgeous looking man right there. What about Blizzard general representation of male characters, those square-jawed, muscle-bound figured sculpted in the image of gods as an example of a proper physique? From Death to Chris Redfield and the always mentioned He-Man; guys whose bodies stand beyond any realistic expectation are pretty much all over, but no-one ever pays much attention to them. Characters whose bodies were obviously made for girls to enjoy and for guys to aspire to, kind of like the tight-fit and body-showing bikini suits of female characters tends to be the other way around--guys enjoy them, girls aspire to them.

At least, that's the mentality. Because clearly girls don't aspire to them, they find them oversexualized and just generally outrageous. But do guys ever make much of a fuss when the male character has a body beyond anything they could realistically be expected to have themselves? They don't tend to make that much of a fuss.

But I guess that comes, like Lunatic mentioned, down to oversexualized females coming across as just plain sex objects, while the oversexualized males are... "power fantasy" symbols. The dominant display of muscles and glory. Eesh.

No-one looked at 300, or its sequel, and cried oversexualization of men, did they? Of course not.

http://i.imgur.com/rwtta2q.png
Yeah, but considering Hanzo is the sole example amongst an otherwise completely unsexualized cast of males, he's not a very strong example. Yeah, I hesitate to call that sexualization. Because they're not really there to show off what they've got, they're more there to kick ass. I explored this more in my reply to Lunatic, should only be a few posts above this one. Also, girls aspiring to be super models is a mindset I know a lot of people have been starting to criticize as extremely toxic, as it can cause unrealistic expectations and eating disorders like anorexia.

Again, explored in my post above. Really the only thing I've seen recently that I feel like really sexualizes men is JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.
 

JarinArenos

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Jetfan007 said:
To the bolded point, do you believe ragdoll physics to be sexist? 'Cause the only time you'll ever see "porn poses" is in a game with ragdoll physics or poorly implemented 'realistic' physics. Is bad coding sexist?
If it IS just poorly-implemented ragdoll coding and there's no egregious difference between the enemy outfits, then obviously not.
On henchmen, many games have done exactly that. Does that mean that there shouldn't be games with henchmen? Are henchmen a problem? Are henchmen in movies, comics, TV, books, etc a problem? Should every character in a story be named, with a full backstory?
I get the impression that you're still in hyperbolic mode, not discussion. Please talk to me, not to the perceived sides. What's your opinion on henchmen in general? I already gave an idea of mine, and nothing in what I said even vaguely implied being in favor of total abolishment.
 

Dogstile

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So the muscled up men aren't sexualised because women... don't like girls who have a hell of a lot of muscle definition? I must be watching the wrong bodybuilder competitions and reading the wrong fanfiction.

I suppose I should stop working out too. My girlfriends gonna hate that shit.
 

MetalShadowChaos

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Here's my opinion on the characters based on my time getting rather exited about this game:

I think they did a pretty good job. To go trough each character, Tracer I think we can all agree is pretty good in terms of how progressive she is. I wouldn't at all consider her sexualised. Sure she does the whole hip-jut thing that seems all too common in female presentation these days (and it will be back in this post), but I think she's pretty neat.

Pharrah has the whole Samus Aran chest thing going on and I'm digging it(note: I'm looking forward to playing her most. Zone of the Enders missile barrage yo). And people thought Samus was a man until Ninty told us. Again, pretty great, even more against stereotypes than Tracer, and Tracer's pretty great.

Symettra is an interesting one, since we can't deny that she's got the sexy going on(Yes, the hip jut is back, WITH A VENGANCE). Thing is, it isn't unfitting with her character, to the point where I'd have trouble believing her as a character if she DIDN'T do the sexiness. Her character is all about elegance and finesse, and a key element of elegance and finesse is CURVES. It would be weird for someone that knows the importance of curves in design not to show of her own. So yeah, I like it.

Mercy probably rang a few alarm bells for those inclined to worry about these things at first glance, but give it a bit of a thaught and she actually isn't bad. People assume that a woman wearing a skinsuit immediately means that the character is sexualised, but here's a little experiment: mentally switch her gender in your head. Rid he rof the boobs and maybe give some bulge down there. It's actually not that bad. Point being she isn't wearing anything that a man wouldn't wear, so I would personally put the fact that it's sexy down to the personal preferences of your average observer(myself included). The high heels are a bit much though. She poses herself evocatively, but I think that's more to do with the Angel imagery than sexuality. Angels have presence, they're GOD'S BEINGS ON EARTH, so the semantic field of Angels she has going kind of means she has to ham it up a bit. Tell a guy to give himself presence and he's probably push his chest and crotch forward as well.

Widowmaker, yeah. I'm not denying this one. I defended skinsuits before though, so to explain the specific problem here, and the difference between Widow's an Mercy's, it's the highlight in the centre. The white line that focuses attention on the well-defined cleavage. That and the defined line between the legs and hips, while also highlighting the inner thighs. Widow's skinsuit is a VERY different story to Mercy's, and is indeed sexualised. Coupled with the return of the hip-jut WITH THE FORCE OF A THOUSAND SUNS, and a personality which has no bearing on her actions makes her pretty heavily sexualised. But you know what, why not have one, eh? I mean, I'd suggest they make her personality better suit the actions she performs, but I'm not opposed to having your one sexualised character. And hell, anyone here think of a way to have a spider-woman without making I sexual? Thanks to beauty's like Quelaag and Arachne, Spider-Women are inherently sexual, so I guess it's just conforming to some good old tropes. And tropes aren't bad, you know? There for fun.


So there's my analysis, for what it's worth. They've done a pretty good job as far as I'm concerned. Some work in places could make things a little better but equality has no perfect state, we'll never be exactly equal or we'd end up the masked, cloaked, monk-bricks.Not bad. Keep up the good work Blizzard.
 

MetalShadowChaos

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Subbies said:
The Goat Tsar said:
I like how racially diverse it is. Germans, Swedes, Egyptians, Indians, Nepalese... Pretty good so far. Just needs a few black and Hispanic characters and it'll be set.

In the cinematic trailer, we see this image where there is indeed a black guy. Whether or not he'll be playable is up to guess, but I'm tempted to that that he will be, it's just that blizzard hasn't implemented the whole roster of heroes to pick from yet, hence why he wasn't seen in the gameplay trailer.
Now here's a point from a personal perspective, there is one character in this image that gives me a boner on an immeasurable scale in comparison to all others.

That robot between Tracer and Winston.

Seriously.
 

Folji

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erttheking said:
Also, girls aspiring to be super models is a mindset I know a lot of people have been starting to criticize as extremely toxic, as it can cause unrealistic expectations and eating disorders like anorexia.

Again, explored in my post above.
Well, there is really the root of the problem with oversexualization in both cases. Whether it is a female oversexualization portraying a character screaming to be taken, or a male oversexualization screaming their intent to take someone? I mean, after all, the split is visibly there. The split is visibly there as you mentioned, the female oversexualization usually portrays a slender and voluptuous figure, big in just the right places, while the male character is a muscle-bound hulk all about asserting dominance. It's two different kinds of oversexualization, it really is.

But for both cases, the inevitable outcome of them? An overarcing mentality that those are the kind of girls the guys want, and those are the kind of guys the girls want. And where does that leave people? With a feeling that their appearance just isn't good enough, if they don't have the body of a supermodel, whether that's an hourglass-shaped girl or a well-sculpted guy. Yes they are two distinctly different presentations, and arguably the female presentation is more detrimental for being a 'submissive' sexualization to the male 'empowered' sexualization, especially in the example you showed there.

But for both of them, the root of it all is that it constantly hammers on a representation of the genders that neither guys nor girls would really aspire to. It points at them and says "this is how your gender should look, only you don't". It instills a feeling of unwanted inadequacy, regardless of whether you are male or female, not to mention an unwanted pressure to obtain that kind of a physique. It's just as toxic for guys as it is for girls. The expectations become unrealistic for everyone.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Artaneius said:
How sad that gaming companies have to be forced to announce this kind of statement in the vain attempt to "appease" gamers with political and social agendas... Makes me very depressed that we allowed RL social issues to enter gaming communities and culture. Someone please make me a time machine where I can stay permanently in the 80s-early 00s gaming forums.
So games are becoming like every other medium of entertainment now? I don't see the problem.
 

The Material Sheep

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Folji said:
erttheking said:
Also, girls aspiring to be super models is a mindset I know a lot of people have been starting to criticize as extremely toxic, as it can cause unrealistic expectations and eating disorders like anorexia.

Again, explored in my post above.
Well, there is really the root of the problem with oversexualization in both cases. Whether it is a female oversexualization portraying a character screaming to be taken, or a male oversexualization screaming their intent to take someone? I mean, after all, the split is visibly there. The split is visibly there as you mentioned, the female oversexualization usually portrays a slender and voluptuous figure, big in just the right places, while the male character is a muscle-bound hulk all about asserting dominance. It's two different kinds of oversexualization, it really is.

But for both cases, the inevitable outcome of them? An overarcing mentality that those are the kind of girls the guys want, and those are the kind of guys the girls want. And where does that leave people? With a feeling that their appearance just isn't good enough, if they don't have the body of a supermodel, whether that's an hourglass-shaped girl or a well-sculpted guy. Yes they are two distinctly different presentations, and arguably the female presentation is more detrimental for being a 'submissive' sexualization to the male 'empowered' sexualization, especially in the example you showed there.

But for both of them, the root of it all is that it constantly hammers on a representation of the genders that neither guys nor girls would really aspire to. It points at them and says "this is how your gender should look, only you don't". It instills a feeling of unwanted inadequacy, regardless of whether you are male or female, not to mention an unwanted pressure to obtain that kind of a physique. It's just as toxic for guys as it is for girls. The expectations become unrealistic for everyone.
Is it toxic though to try and express our ideals on human beauty through romantic art? Which is what oversexualization is. It's romanticized visions of human beings at the peak of what society thinks is beautiful. They are idealized, and the majority can never reach that kind of physical beauty but isn't that kind of the point of heroic idealistic art? Not to tell you that this is how you should be but to vicariously feel like a hero by playing through these idealistically designed avatars. You say it's a toxic cultural mentality telling people they aren't good enough, I see a celebration of the human form in way that society generally sees as idealized.
 

dragonswarrior

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Dogstile said:
You're taking my quote out of context. *laughs* It's cool though. I was saying those things mostly in response to what Z was saying.

I actually do think this is a step in the right direction. I don't think it's enough of a step, or even a very big step. But it is a step and I appreciate that.

Z of the Na said:
Well, I'm just glad somebody here sees things the way I do.
Ha. Ha ha. Ha ha ha. Very witty. (So I guess on par with my post eh?)
 

Erttheking

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Folji said:
I still disagree that people like Kratos are sexualized, but I can understand where the unrealistic expectations come from and how they can hurt.

To be perfectly honest I feel like it's less like it's what people want to be like/ want in a partner and more like what the stereotype of people want to be like/ want in a person. To be honest the media kind of pushes this form of idealized bodies on us, because really when was it decided that that is what was popular? I don't remember taking a survey. The ideal woman for me is tall with long black hair and a bit of muscle. I don't see too many of those in fiction. It's why I groan when people say "They're just giving the audience what they want." No, they're just making what they want and saying the audience wanted it. I know I'm royally off topic here, but I feel like this might flesh out my stance for this a bit.

Oh...you agree with me on everything I've been rambling about...cool.

So, quick question, do you agree with me in that there should be a healthy balance of sexualized and empowered characters for both genders? If I haven't convinced you of the difference between the two, than at least an even balance of the types I showed you? With plenty of exploration of everything in between?

I kind of lost track of what I was talking about.
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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BigTuk said:
MarsAtlas said:
You do realize that what you've said amounts to. :

"People who agfree with my outlooks are more deserving of having their needs met and are better people than those that don't"
No, what I said was "Would you rather cater to a group of customers that will abandon you if you don't make all of your female characters sex objects for whom their wants are better served elsewhere in the same market (plenty of sex games) and other markets (porn is an obvious one) or would you rather appeal to people who primarily play it as a game and are willing to be a consumer of your goods as long as you don't antagonize or alieniate them?" From an artistic perspective, most would go with the latter. Everybody at Blizzard has a mother, after all, and I imagine plenty of daughters as well. As for market, well, the more loyal customers for games are the ones who have a greater loyalty towards gameplay rather than sexiness in the product.

You've also said that there is something wrong or improper about any female character that just so happens to have DD's and likes wearing airy fashions...
No, I haven't. Of course, those character rarely exist. You can't seriously say that there's artistic merit behind Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball. For every Bayonetta, a female character who embraces their sexuality, there's a hundred characters who's sexuality is apart from their character, whose outfit exists simply for players to oogle rather than because it says something about them. Just take a comparison of Ashley Williams in Mass Effect versus Ashley Williams in Mass Effect 3. In Mass Effect, she's very a professional, well-trained soldier, and thats expressed physically by her having her hair in a bun - out of the way, not going to interfere with her in combat. In Mass Effect 3, when she's a bodyguard for some of the most important sentient beings in the entire universe, not just a grunt on a backwater that never sees any combat, she has her hair down in a jacket - her hair is out to fly around and get in the way of her sight as well as get caught on things, and she's not even wearing armour. It doesn't reflect on her as a character, and nothing about her has changed to really facilitate it. They did it anyways though because "reasons amirite?"

so if you're a female who happens to have DD cups and a nudist exhibitionist tendencies.. tough luck you do not deserve to represented in games.
The fact is that the overwhelming majority of the time that female characters are sexualized, in its service to what is called "the male gaze", not because its relevant to them as a character. I mean, Samus in high heels, really? Are you really going to try and tell me that the most professional bounty hunter in the galaxy is going to wear high heels into combat? I don't have a problem with sexuality if its in service to the narrative, the character or the game's themes, but I do have a problem with it when its meant to give boys erections in a context that clashes with the rest of the game. I mean, really, do I have to druge up the stripper nun assassins in Hitman Absolution whose very existence,let alone choice of apparel, serves absolutely no purpose within the narrative whatsoever?
 

dragonswarrior

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Dogstile said:
So the muscled up men aren't sexualised because women... don't like girls who have a hell of a lot of muscle definition? I must be watching the wrong bodybuilder competitions and reading the wrong fanfiction.

I suppose I should stop working out too. My girlfriends gonna hate that shit.
The only sexualised man in this game is the archer. He's a hotty. The others are robots, gorillas, completely covered from head to toe in cloaks and masks, and a dwarf looking mofo.

I have never heard a woman describe the Marcus Fenix (sp?) body type as sexy. I'm sure they exist, but they're probably in the minority, if not a vast minority.

Whereas, in this game alone, every woman in it is attractive. Even the awesome armor lady has an element of sexiness to her character design. There is nothing sexy about the gorilla, or the dwarf dude. Well, let me correct that, nothing CONVENTIONALLY sexy. I'm not gonna diss ya if you're into that sorta thing. But every woman in this game, even the one that has nothing but a mouth showing, is conventionally attractive.

That's a problem.
 

Z of the Na'vi

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dragonswarrior said:
Ha. Ha ha. Ha ha ha. Very witty. (So I guess on par with my post eh?)
More or less, heh. I suppose we can agree to disagree at this point.

Still though, I guess it's okay if people feel strongly about this issue. I've just never concerned myself too much with topics like this. Sorry if I offended at all.
 

Folji

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erttheking said:
So, quick question, do you agree with me in that there should be a healthy balance of sexualized and empowered characters for both genders? If I haven't convinced you of the difference between the two, than at least an even balance of the types I showed you? With plenty of exploration of everything in between?

I kind of lost track of what I was talking about.
Yeah, a healthy diversity of characters is great, even if it does inevitably fall into that same mentality of trying to evenly represent everything. A little bit of token this, a bit of token that, but look at games like Team Fortress 2 or Borderlands. Sure TF2 is a total boy's club as far as the character roster goes, but that's beside the point, because what those two games have in common is that their representation of really any characters portrayed in their respective universes as a whole? They're diverse. And I'm not thinking genders or races, I'm thinking physically. How they both show off the many different ways a person can look, the way they use that to give the characters their character, instead of gunning straight for voluptuous girls or herculean guys as though they're trying to promote some kind of sexual attraction to the characters.

I think that's a good mentality, right there. A character shouldn't have their appearance based on what the player might find attractive, it should be based on what actually fits the character. Otherwise, you're just bombarding the audience with a physical idealization that's only going to have a toxic effect at the end of the day. And that, if you ask me, is the root of the problem for oversexualized characters, for guys and girls alike.
 

Ticklefist

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MarsAtlas said:
BigTuk said:
MarsAtlas said:
You do realize that what you've said amounts to. :

"People who agfree with my outlooks are more deserving of having their needs met and are better people than those that don't"
No, what I said was "Would you rather cater to a group of customers that will abandon you if you don't make all of your female characters sex objects for whom their wants are better served elsewhere in the same market (plenty of sex games) and other markets (porn is an obvious one) or would you rather appeal to people who primarily play it as a game and are willing to be a consumer of your goods as long as you don't antagonize or alieniate them?"
Well that first group doesn't even exist so what's the point of answering?
 

MetalShadowChaos

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dragonswarrior said:
Dogstile said:
So the muscled up men aren't sexualised because women... don't like girls who have a hell of a lot of muscle definition? I must be watching the wrong bodybuilder competitions and reading the wrong fanfiction.

I suppose I should stop working out too. My girlfriends gonna hate that shit.
The only sexualised man in this game is the archer. He's a hotty. The others are robots, gorillas, completely covered from head to toe in cloaks and masks, and a dwarf looking mofo.

I have never heard a woman describe the Marcus Fenix (sp?) body type as sexy. I'm sure they exist, but they're probably in the minority, if not a vast minority.

Whereas, in this game alone, every woman in it is attractive. Even the awesome armor lady has an element of sexiness to her character design. There is nothing sexy about the gorilla, or the dwarf dude. Well, let me correct that, nothing CONVENTIONALLY sexy. I'm not gonna diss ya if you're into that sorta thing. But every woman in this game, even the one that has nothing but a mouth showing, is conventionally attractive.

That's a problem.
For one, I don't think it's a problem. Every woman is attractive, because people are going to be looking at them. That's the fact. Every single character is designed to be aesthetically pleasing because people will look at them. It's the Tomoki effect, as I call it. Even if you are told that the character is Ugly, chances are their design as you see it will not be.

And also, there is no standard definition for what classes as a 'default' sexy man. Which is a GOOD thing! And we shouldn't be focused on GETTING any. More important is getting more variety in female character designs to match up with what is accepted for men. Which Overwatch has done to at least a small extent with Pharah, even if she's essentially Egyptian Samus with some Orbital Gear for good measure(side note, I don't think the Zone of the Enders comparisons and her Egyptian origins are co-incidence, someone at Blizzard likes Kojima).
 

Story

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Well, at least they are listening to fan feedback. That's always good.
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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ticklefist said:
Well that first group doesn't even exist so what's the point of answering?
The way he phrase his rhetorical, he implies that there is, and they're in equal number as to those who would rather not have the characters oversexualized.
 

Ticklefist

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MarsAtlas said:
ticklefist said:
Well that first group doesn't even exist so what's the point of answering?
The way he phrase his rhetorical, he implies that there is, and they're in equal number as to those who would rather not have the characters oversexualized.
I mean the "group of customers that will abandon you if you don't make all of your female characters sex objects."

There is no such group. That assertion is more blatantly offensive than anything else being discussed here. It's a hell of a lot more antagonistic than a girl jutting out her hip so she can rest her rifle on it.
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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ticklefist said:
MarsAtlas said:
ticklefist said:
Well that first group doesn't even exist so what's the point of answering?
The way he phrase his rhetorical, he implies that there is, and they're in equal number as to those who would rather not have the characters oversexualized.
I mean the "group of customers that will abandon you if you don't make all of your female characters sex objects."

There is no such group. Just the mere assertion is more blatantly offensive than anything else being discussed here.
Again, what he implied. His rhetorical implied that there was a group of equal size that wouldn't patron the game if the characters who are women were oversexualized as the group of people who wouldn't patronthe game if they were oversexualized.
 

Erttheking

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Folji said:
erttheking said:
So, quick question, do you agree with me in that there should be a healthy balance of sexualized and empowered characters for both genders? If I haven't convinced you of the difference between the two, than at least an even balance of the types I showed you? With plenty of exploration of everything in between?

I kind of lost track of what I was talking about.
Yeah, a healthy diversity of characters is great, even if it does inevitably fall into that same mentality of trying to evenly represent everything. A little bit of token this, a bit of token that, but look at games like Team Fortress 2 or Borderlands. Sure TF2 is a total boy's club as far as the character roster goes, but that's beside the point, because what those two games have in common is that their representation of really any characters portrayed in their respective universes as a whole? They're diverse. And I'm not thinking genders or races, I'm thinking physically. How they both show off the many different ways a person can look, the way they use that to give the characters their character, instead of gunning straight for voluptuous girls or herculean guys as though they're trying to promote some kind of sexual attraction to the characters.

I think that's a good mentality, right there. A character shouldn't have their appearance based on what the player might find attractive, it should be based on what actually fits the character. Otherwise, you're just bombarding the audience with a physical idealization that's only going to have a toxic effect at the end of the day. And that, if you ask me, is the root of the problem for oversexualized characters, for guys and girls alike.
It is pretty cool of TF2 to show that, and it's why I do like how Overwatch is turning out in terms of variety. Granted I wish that it had a bit more variety to it in terms of body types, but overall it's still a pretty solid step in the right direction.

Oh dear God a thousand times yes. Half of the time the reason sexy characters annoy me, it's because it completely contradicts either the setting or the character. Apparently Ivy from Soul Caliber is supposed to have taken an oath of chastity. Her outfit can most generously described as a bunch of string with a few random scraps of cloth. Is it really too much to ask for internal consistency from writers?
 

Ticklefist

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MarsAtlas said:
ticklefist said:
MarsAtlas said:
ticklefist said:
Well that first group doesn't even exist so what's the point of answering?
The way he phrase his rhetorical, he implies that there is, and they're in equal number as to those who would rather not have the characters oversexualized.
I mean the "group of customers that will abandon you if you don't make all of your female characters sex objects."

There is no such group. Just the mere assertion is more blatantly offensive than anything else being discussed here.
Again, what he implied. His rhetorical implied that there was a group of equal size that wouldn't patron the game if the characters who are women were oversexualized as the group of people who wouldn't patronthe game if they were oversexualized.
I understand. My mistake.
 

WhiteTigerShiro

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The Lunatic said:
Folji said:
People keep freaking out over oversexualized female characters in games lately, what about oversexualized male characters? No? Weeeeell, guess not. It's only ever about the oversexualization of females.
It's kinda amusing to see people try and claims that's a "Power Fantasy" as if the same couldn't be said about sexualised females.

They're basically saying "Yeah, men should feel empowered by being oversexualised, but for women it's a bad thing!".
The difference is that when a woman tells a man that she thinks he's sexy, he doesn't have to worry about where she's going with that compliment, and whether or not the wrong response (even if it's a fair response) will antagonize her. Meanwhile women need to be very careful about how they handle a man giving her a compliment, because sometimes (granted not always, but it happens) no matter how she reacts, the guy will act like he was already given permission by simple virtue of her passing across his line of sight.

In short, a guy will nearly-always regard it as a compliment when he's told he looks good. Meanwhile for a woman, being told the same thing can be the scariest thing she hears, because "Oh shit, was that just a random compliment, or him verbally marking his territory?"
 

Riot3000

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So this come from a our friendly neighborhood Kotaku.
Sheesh the comments here even if they are rhetorical is leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

Ok Blizzard congrats I guess.
 

Ticklefist

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WhiteTigerShiro said:
The Lunatic said:
Folji said:
People keep freaking out over oversexualized female characters in games lately, what about oversexualized male characters? No? Weeeeell, guess not. It's only ever about the oversexualization of females.
It's kinda amusing to see people try and claims that's a "Power Fantasy" as if the same couldn't be said about sexualised females.

They're basically saying "Yeah, men should feel empowered by being oversexualised, but for women it's a bad thing!".
The difference is that when a woman tells a man that she thinks he's sexy, he doesn't have to worry about where she's going with that compliment, and whether or not the wrong response (even if it's a fair response) will antagonize her. Meanwhile women need to be very careful about how they handle a man giving her a compliment, because sometimes (granted not always, but it happens) no matter how she reacts, the guy will act like he was already given permission by simple virtue of her passing across his line of sight.

In short, a guy will nearly-always regard it as a compliment when he's told he looks good. Meanwhile for a woman, being told the same thing can be the scariest thing she hears, because "Oh shit, was that just a random compliment, or him verbally marking his territory?"
Wow. Whoever fed you that one is completely irrational and should seek fear counseling.
 

michael87cn

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while they tone down the female sexualization can they also tone down the male sexualization? I don't enjoy playing as a steroid junky that can lift a car. that'd be grrrrrrrrrreat..... but won't happen. women will look normal and the dudes will look like freaks....
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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ticklefist said:
Wow. Whoever fed you that one is completely irrational and should seek fear counseling.
Hello, welcome to reality, where there's no shortage of men who treat women in real life as objects meant to be appealing to them. Where if you're a woman who doesn't act with gratitude to a man giving out these supposedly just friendly compliments that he may follow and harass you, and if you do, he may follow and harass you.
 

Gizen

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Ladylotus said:
To be fair, there is (or was) someone on the League team who was trying. Annie, Kayle, Diana, Tristana, and several others are fairly well done, without oversexualization.

And then there's characters like Janna, Caitlyn, or Cassiopeia, who have no reason for the way they are dressed.

That being said, I still dislike the fact that so many characters are oversexualized, and that female characters who aren't the 'normal' model are few and far between.
Cassiopeia kinda does have a reason as her (original at least) background story was that she was a spy disguised as what amounted to a high-priced hooker who then became cursed. Janna you could make an argument about being 'free as the wind' or whatever. Caitlyn... has no excuse whatsoever and Riot has admitted as such and said that'll likely get fixed when she gets an inevitable-but-not-anytime-soon remake.

That said, as a whole they've been doing better with this as of late. The newest female champion, Kalista, they announced isn't very sexualized. The previous one Lissandra was also not at all sexualized. Before her there was Jinx, who does wear extremely skimpy clothes but at least gets some points for having an unconventional body type (at least unconventional as far as League goes).
 

Batou667

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Hey, whatever. They're free to use whatever style of art direction they like, and if that fits the demographic they're aiming for, that makes perfectly good financial sense as well.

I'm hesitant to hail this as some kind of step towards a more "enlightened" or "progressive" breed of gaming though, if all they're doing is making the wimminz cover up. That, in and of itself, isn't any better than WoW's boobplate - it's just different. Possibly less objectifying, possibly more female-friendly. But also possibly less sex-positive, and possibly more repressive. "More representative of all gamers" is also a non-sequitur, as I don't believe any of the game's characters are white, 30-something, middle class women working in administration or middle-management. It's clearly a fantastic, OTT, militaristic science fiction setting; the characters don't represent any gamers beyond superficial commonalities of sex or race.

Anybody trying to claim this game as a small victory for their pet social/political cause is grasping at straws, frankly.
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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erttheking said:
Folji said:
People keep freaking out over oversexualized female characters in games lately, what about oversexualized male characters? No? Weeeeell, guess not. It's only ever about the oversexualization of females.
Er...could you please point out an example of a sexualized male character? A couple just so I can get a feel of what you're talking about?

Because while I'm sure they exist, I'm pretty sure there's not that many of them.
A "sexualized male" has nothing to do with a "sexualized woman" because what women find attractive about men and what men find attractive about women is different. Men are inherently objectifying in their sexual attraction, focusing almost purely on physicality, whereas a woman's sexual attraction for a man is based heavily on social cues and emotionality. Men attract women by exuding confidence and displaying dominance; the same things that make a male character a "power fantasy" make him attractive sexually even if he's old or overweight. In other words, men are sexually attractive in their actions, women are sexually attractive just by looking attractive. An attractive male with no drive, no friends, and no social skills is not going to get female attention. An attractive female with no personality, no friends, and no social skills is going to get a lot of male attention.
 

Popido

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Hourglass figured barbies all of them. Including the power armor. Only points they deserve from this attempt is pity points.

Here, let me help you to design "not so ovesexualized" female character.

Grizzly bear with railguns.

Done!

Xiado said:
An attractive male with no drive, no friends, and no social skills is not going to get female attention.
Every god damn Sasuke in fiction.
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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It's sad how they have to worry about not oversexualizing their female characters.But given the current climate I don't blame them.
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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Popido said:
Hourglass figured barbies all of them. Including the power armor. Only points they deserve from this attempt is pity points.

Here, let me help you to design "not so ovesexualized" female character.

Grizzly bear with railguns.

Done!

Xiado said:
An attractive male with no drive, no friends, and no social skills is not going to get female attention.
Every god damn Sasuke in fiction.
I'm talking about real life, the way real sexuality works. The male characters are "sexualized" in Overwatch because they are acting in a way that attracts the average women; engaging in competition and conflict. Every "power fantasy" is sexual in a sense because women are attracted to powerful men.
 

Something Amyss

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OMG this makes me so angry because....REASONS! Why do they have to consider other people? Not pandering directly to me is unreasonable!

erttheking said:
Less "Fuck me" and more "I'm gonna fuck YOU"
Okay, that's my quote for the week.
 

Nergui

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This whole issue seems a lot like clickbaiting by Blizzard for free publicity. On the other hand, it also worked well, so they can hardly be faulted.

Had they just made a female shaped version of the male characters with identical outfits, this would have been a non-issue and they would have had to pay for their PR.

Captcha - heavens to betsy
(how appropiate)
 

Ticklefist

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MarsAtlas said:
WhiteTigerShiro said:
ticklefist said:
Wow. Whoever fed you that one is completely irrational and should seek fear counseling.
I've seen it.
I'll top that, I've experienced it. I know I'm not the only one on this forum who has, either.
I didn't expect your irrational fears to be without precedent. People can't go around fearing the worst, it's not healthy and irrational. Seek counseling if you do.
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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ticklefist said:
I didn't expect your irrational fears to be without precedent. People can't go around fearing the worst, it's not healthy and irrational. Seek counseling if you do.
Its not irrational if it happens all the time.
 

Ticklefist

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MarsAtlas said:
ticklefist said:
I didn't expect your irrational fears to be without precedent. People can't go around fearing the worst, it's not healthy and irrational. Seek counseling if you do.
Its not irrational if it happens all the time.
I'm 38. Well out of the dating scene. Forgive me if things have changed. In my experience when some guy was rude and overbearing like this, to the point that it made a woman visibly uncomfortable, there were about 5 standup guys right there that would intervene. They could possibly even be strangers. Are you saying the general attitude towards women has turned so hostile that this is no longer the case?
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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ticklefist said:
I'm 38. Well out of the dating scene. Forgive me if things have changed. In my experience when some guy was rude and overbearing like this, to the point that it made a woman visibly uncomfortable, there were about 5 standup guys right there that would intervene. They could possibly even be strangers. Are you saying the general attitude towards women has turned so hostile that this is no longer the case?
My general experience is no, people won't intervene. Its a scientifically explainable phenomenom called the Bystander Effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

What you're describing as having seen simply isn't the norm. It doesn't have to do with anything regarding the gender of the victim.
 

EternallyBored

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ticklefist said:
MarsAtlas said:
ticklefist said:
I didn't expect your irrational fears to be without precedent. People can't go around fearing the worst, it's not healthy and irrational. Seek counseling if you do.
Its not irrational if it happens all the time.
I'm 38. Well out of the dating scene. Forgive me if things have changed. In my experience when some guy was rude and overbearing like this, to the point that it made a woman uncomfortable, there were about 5 standup guys right there that would intervene. They could possibly even be strangers. Are you saying the general attitude towards women has turned so hostile that this is no longer the case?
More like it never was the case, bystander effect is a thing, and for every time I saw random strangers stepping in to stop harrassment, I saw 10 incidences where everyone around decided to stay out of it. I responded because it was my job at the time as a club bouncer, but I could almost never count on bystanders to come in and stop it before I got there.

I still see cases of harassment that go completely ignored by bystanders. I'm not talking about small stuff either, I mean full on shouting or even physical violence that will be ignored until security or police show up. The shit I saw when I worked the security room in casinos was enough to make me downright depressed some days.

There are people willing to step in, but it's not an everytime kind of thing, and I wouldn't even call it the norm, and that was 10 years ago so this isn't some recent phenomenon, it's why emergency responders and professionals are often given classes that specifically train them how to not freeze up or ignore a serious situation. Everyone thinks someone else will take care of it, and it isn't their problem, this isn't new, I've heard stories from 60 year old guards of finding girls raped in the public restrooms at clubs, without a single report from the guests until staff stumbles across them.

You can't let fear rule your life, but it is not irrational to take precaution and consideration against a very real risk.
 

dragonswarrior

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MetalShadowChaos said:
dragonswarrior said:
The only sexualised man in this game is the archer. He's a hotty. The others are robots, gorillas, completely covered from head to toe in cloaks and masks, and a dwarf looking mofo.

I have never heard a woman describe the Marcus Fenix (sp?) body type as sexy. I'm sure they exist, but they're probably in the minority, if not a vast minority.

Whereas, in this game alone, every woman in it is attractive. Even the awesome armor lady has an element of sexiness to her character design. There is nothing sexy about the gorilla, or the dwarf dude. Well, let me correct that, nothing CONVENTIONALLY sexy. I'm not gonna diss ya if you're into that sorta thing. But every woman in this game, even the one that has nothing but a mouth showing, is conventionally attractive.

That's a problem.
For one, I don't think it's a problem. Every woman is attractive, because people are going to be looking at them. That's the fact. Every single character is designed to be aesthetically pleasing because people will look at them. It's the Tomoki effect, as I call it. Even if you are told that the character is Ugly, chances are their design as you see it will not be.

And also, there is no standard definition for what classes as a 'default' sexy man. Which is a GOOD thing! And we shouldn't be focused on GETTING any. More important is getting more variety in female character designs to match up with what is accepted for men. Which Overwatch has done to at least a small extent with Pharah, even if she's essentially Egyptian Samus with some Orbital Gear for good measure(side note, I don't think the Zone of the Enders comparisons and her Egyptian origins are co-incidence, someone at Blizzard likes Kojima).
*blinks* Uhm... How on earth can you not see this as a problem? I mean, I don't even know where to start. Yea, every character is designed to be aesthetically pleasing. It's just that all the women are designed to be sexually pleasing, while only one of the male characters is designed that way. Like... What? There is such a huge difference there I can't even understand how this is an argument.

You said it's okay because the women are designed for people to be looking at them. I mean... That IS the problem. These women characters are designed to be looked at by men. To appeal to men. Not to women. Not to just people in general. To men. There isn't a single female character in this game that was designed to not be conventionally attractive. Whereas of the male characters, only one seems to be designed to be conventionally attractive, to appeal to women, while all the others can appeal to anyone who likes good character design.

Then in your second paragraph you say this: "More important is getting more variety in female character designs to match up with what is accepted for men." And you say some cool if I think somewhat ignorant stuff about male conventional attractiveness. Which makes me wonder if maybe you just didn't understand my post? Because it almost seems like you agree with me at least in part anyway? *confused*

Also, while I wish we didn't have a male conventional attractiveness archetype, sad thing is I think we do. And the archer character kinda personifies it. Fit but not buff, some nice muscle definition showing, grizzled but still very attractive. That's sort of the "thing" that currently defines the attractive male at this point. At least as I've noticed media portraying it.

Z of the Na said:
More or less, heh. I suppose we can agree to disagree at this point.

Still though, I guess it's okay if people feel strongly about this issue. I've just never concerned myself too much with topics like this. Sorry if I offended at all.
*laughs* Allright. Apology accepted, and I can totally understand that. *grins* Just realize... For a lot of folks this is a very serious issue. And many of them don't have the option of saying "this is just a game" because for them it can't "just" be that. Something they love has to be in so many ways offensive to them, at least at the moment. And for them (me, us) fighting against that is something that is really worth it.
 

Ticklefist

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dragonswarrior said:
*laughs* Allright. Apology accepted, and I can totally understand that. *grins* Just realize... For a lot of folks this is a very serious issue. And many of them don't have the option of saying "this is just a game" because for them it can't "just" be that. Something they love has to be in so many ways offensive to them, at least at the moment. And for them (me, us) fighting against that is something that is really worth it.
What is it about this game that strips of them of the option of seeing it as just a game? Why do they already love this game, what has it already done to offend them? It appears to me that you've merely created a new witch for your ongoing hunt. Or at the least found a new battleground to hash over things that have been hashed over. Just doesn't feel appropriate here in the comments about a game whose lead developer has just expressed his agreement.
 

The Material Sheep

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MarsAtlas said:
ticklefist said:
Wow. Whoever fed you that one is completely irrational and should seek fear counseling.
Hello, welcome to reality, where there's no shortage of men who treat women in real life as objects meant to be appealing to them. Where if you're a woman who doesn't act with gratitude to a man giving out these supposedly just friendly compliments that he may follow and harass you, and if you do, he may follow and harass you.
No that isn't reality. That is falling for a well peddled scare campaign to get political groups power. Your just as likely to have any number of terrible random accidents happen to you as that if not more so, so there is no sense in treating every situation in such an irrational and anxious way. Yeah if it happened to you that really does suck but I was just in a nasty car wreck that wasn't my fault. However I'm not going to be afraid of getting into a car now. You can't let tragic or terrible things like that effect you in such a way and if they do you need to get help. You can't expect society to bend over for your irrational view of it, especially when the problem is on your end.
 

Ticklefist

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The Material Sheep said:
MarsAtlas said:
ticklefist said:
Wow. Whoever fed you that one is completely irrational and should seek fear counseling.
Hello, welcome to reality, where there's no shortage of men who treat women in real life as objects meant to be appealing to them. Where if you're a woman who doesn't act with gratitude to a man giving out these supposedly just friendly compliments that he may follow and harass you, and if you do, he may follow and harass you.
No that isn't reality that is falling for a well peddled scare campaign to get political groups power. Your just as likely to have any number of terrible random accidents happen to you as that if not more so, so there is no sense in treating every situation in such an irrational and anxious way.
Kind of how I saw it but I was happy to let the subject go.
 

LazyAza

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Considering that 4 out of the 5 female characters still have the same boring archetypical skinny/curvy body type and are still just the same old pretty faced humanoids I'd say Blizzard like all studios has a long way to go still in terms of catering to diverse interests and fairer representation. Mercy and Widowmaker also still clearly have the whole molded boob outfit thing going on.

Widow especially just seems like a reuse of the female Starcraft Ghost character design but with more exposed cleavage, don't care much for her.

Meanwhile the male characters include a robot, a gorilla, a short fat hairy midget, a floating cyborg buddha and a giant armor golem-like monster man. And Reaper is pretty cool but a little bland. Still that's 6 out of the 7 males that are quite unique.

Why not under-dress one of your male characters for a change? why not make one of the scary/weird characters clearly female instead of male? Its nice that Pharah is there, she seems alright but eh her suit/design is so gender neutral and kinda boring in a different way that even she fails to be interesting or cool.
 

The Material Sheep

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LazyAza said:
Considering that 4 out of the 5 female characters still have the same boring archetypical skinny/curvy body type and are still just the same old pretty faced humanoids I'd say Blizzard like all studios has a long way to go still in terms of catering to diverse interests and fairer representation. Mercy and Widowmaker also still clearly have the whole molded boob outfit thing going on.

Widow especially just seems like a reuse of the female Starcraft Ghost character design but with more exposed cleavage, don't care much for her.

Meanwhile the male characters include a robot, a gorilla, a short fat hairy midget, a floating cyborg buddha and a giant armor golem-like monster man. And Reaper is pretty cool but a little bland. Still that's 6 out of the 7 males that are quite unique.

Why not under-dress one of your male characters for a change? why not make one of the scary/weird characters clearly female instead of male? Its nice that Pharah is there, she seems alright but eh her suit/design is so gender neutral and kinda boring in a different way that even she fails to be interesting or cool.
Hanzo has an exposed chest and breast, pretty face, and and a lithe athletic body. He is pretty much an exemplar of the male form. A lotr Legolas esque character with an exposed chest. He's very clearly some girl eye candy, and that's fine. Lets get some more in here to balance things out and it looks like we're going to get more. These are only the starter heroes for over watch.

And you complained about Pharah's suit being gender neutral while at the same time complaining about form fitting outfits... what do you want man?
 

JohnnyDelRay

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I'm with some people here just wondering the fundamental, why do you have to "try" not to, you either just do or you don't!

But I feel out of the loop. Can someone hit me over the head or explain why game developers have to satisfy audience or societal expectations? I know people are free to analyse and criticise, game reviewers, racism, sexism, social commentary and all that, but why should game design have to conform?

Weren't we arguing not too long ago that games are 'art'? Would you tell an artist to stop drawing controversial figures in case our kids saw it? What's the point in all this? Or is it "draw for your audience" in which case, due to the age rating this game is going for they can't flash too much skin and bloodshed.

Why do we treat games as a medium in which we can influence the creative process? Does anyone tell R.R. Martin not to have incest or misogynistic representations? No, because if you don't like that shit, you just don't buy/read/watch it! I, too, have seen games with forced oversexualization, especially nowadays in the free-to-play and android arena, if I get turned off by it, the simple solution of uninstall is only a few clicks/taps away. If I research a more expensive product and realize that it's not for me, I do not toss any of my dollar bills in their direction.

Hardcore deja vu with all of these circular arguments...
 

Ticklefist

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LazyAza said:
Mercy and Widowmaker also still clearly have the whole molded boob outfit thing going on.

*snip*

Its nice that Pharah is there, she seems alright but eh her suit/design is so gender neutral and kinda boring
Well clearly there's no winning with you.
 

LazyAza

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ticklefist said:
LazyAza said:
Mercy and Widowmaker also still clearly have the whole molded boob outfit thing going on.

*snip*

Its nice that Pharah is there, she seems alright but eh her suit/design is so gender neutral and kinda boring
Well clearly there's no winning with you.
Their would be if this supposed super talented billion dollar company could hire some artists who knew what the definition of interesting character design was. The male designs aren't exactly amazing either but compared to the females at least have decent variety.
 

LazyAza

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The Material Sheep said:
And you complained about Pharah's suit being gender neutral while at the same time complaining about form fitting outfits... what do you want man?
I want a female character that is clearly female but isn't wearing a form fitting outfit. Apparently this is the hardest thing in the world for game artists to draw and model.
 

The Material Sheep

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LazyAza said:
ticklefist said:
LazyAza said:
Mercy and Widowmaker also still clearly have the whole molded boob outfit thing going on.

*snip*

Its nice that Pharah is there, she seems alright but eh her suit/design is so gender neutral and kinda boring
Well clearly there's no winning with you.
Their would be if this supposed super talented billion dollar company could hire some artists who knew what the definition of interesting character design was. The male designs aren't exactly amazing either but compared to the females at least have decent variety.
No. At one point you hate form fitting clothing and another you claim to dislike the fact that Pharah's armor is gender neutral. You are DIRECTLY contradicting yourself. The point of form fitting armor for visuals in a game like this is to show that the character is CLEARLY female. So fine... you've got options with Pharah... but apparently you don't like her because you can't tell she's a female from her armor. Like... I don't know where to go with you man.
 

NiPah

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Flammablezeus said:
NiPah said:
Flammablezeus said:
Trying not to oversexualise? How about, I dunno, just don't do it? Seriously, it's just silly and always takes me out of the game completely. I haven't been able to take games that do this seriously since I was very young.
They do it because there's a larger market for people who like sexy characters then those who think it's silly.
But companies always like to test the waters so to say, maybe the market is changing a bit, I do hope this does well...
Not that I'll ever play it.
Is there any evidence for that? Or is it an assumption because so many popular games also happen to have oversexualised characters? I've enjoyed lots of games that do this, but I would definitely enjoy most of them a lot more if the characters were even remotely believable.

I used to just assume that a lot of devs have weird kinks and since the games sell well, they don't feel the need to stop doing it. Then again, in recent years I would attribute it more to publishers trying to cater to prepubescent children (I'm not using it as a derogatory term) like they've been doing with most aspects of recent games.
I'm not well versed on the scientific literature, any answer I'd give would just be from skimming a Google scholar article or two on sex in advertising and what not.
Also the industry practice of focus group testing, polling of customers, ect (while not public) would mean they are aggregating large bodies of data on the subject and using them in the creation of their games.

I'm not sure why you focus on prepubescent children, sexual imagery is mainly used to target the post-puberty teen male demographic during which they develop sexual interests.
 

Ticklefist

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LazyAza said:
Their would be if this supposed super talented billion dollar company could hire some artists who knew what the definition of interesting character design was. The male designs aren't exactly amazing either but compared to the females at least have decent variety.
I've always felt that the best designs were subtle. Intelligently designed so that players could quickly identify what they were looking at with just a glance.

If you were to show me a quick .2 second video of Pharah I would be able to identify her without a problem. She was only introduced to the world two days ago. That's good design.
 

LazyAza

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The Material Sheep said:
LazyAza said:
ticklefist said:
LazyAza said:
Mercy and Widowmaker also still clearly have the whole molded boob outfit thing going on.

*snip*

Its nice that Pharah is there, she seems alright but eh her suit/design is so gender neutral and kinda boring
Well clearly there's no winning with you.
Their would be if this supposed super talented billion dollar company could hire some artists who knew what the definition of interesting character design was. The male designs aren't exactly amazing either but compared to the females at least have decent variety.
No. At one point you hate form fitting clothing and another you claim to dislike the fact that Pharah's armor is gender neutral. You are DIRECTLY contradicting yourself. The point of form fitting armor for visuals in a game like this is to show that the character is CLEARLY female. So fine... you've got options with Pharah... but apparently you don't like her because you can't tell she's a female from her armor. Like... I don't know where to go with you man.
No I'm not I said Pharah's design was uninteresting because it is so neutral. Gender neutrality is an easy/lazy alternative to 100% form fitting body suits, disliking that doesn't mean I hate it means I think they could have still done better. They could have easily found a perfect middle ground and achieved a much cooler look for her if they had. You don't need to have a character be in one extreme or the other and that seems to be all blizzard is capable of; either 100% CHECK OUT THAT ASS GUYS or 100% IS THAT A GIRL OR BOY? I can't tell!

My primary complaint is the laziness of these designs and the lack of creativity. I want more of the latter and less of the former.
 

Furbyz

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erttheking said:
Folji said:
erttheking said:
So, quick question, do you agree with me in that there should be a healthy balance of sexualized and empowered characters for both genders? If I haven't convinced you of the difference between the two, than at least an even balance of the types I showed you? With plenty of exploration of everything in between?

I kind of lost track of what I was talking about.
Yeah, a healthy diversity of characters is great, even if it does inevitably fall into that same mentality of trying to evenly represent everything. A little bit of token this, a bit of token that, but look at games like Team Fortress 2 or Borderlands. Sure TF2 is a total boy's club as far as the character roster goes, but that's beside the point, because what those two games have in common is that their representation of really any characters portrayed in their respective universes as a whole? They're diverse. And I'm not thinking genders or races, I'm thinking physically. How they both show off the many different ways a person can look, the way they use that to give the characters their character, instead of gunning straight for voluptuous girls or herculean guys as though they're trying to promote some kind of sexual attraction to the characters.

I think that's a good mentality, right there. A character shouldn't have their appearance based on what the player might find attractive, it should be based on what actually fits the character. Otherwise, you're just bombarding the audience with a physical idealization that's only going to have a toxic effect at the end of the day. And that, if you ask me, is the root of the problem for oversexualized characters, for guys and girls alike.
It is pretty cool of TF2 to show that, and it's why I do like how Overwatch is turning out in terms of variety. Granted I wish that it had a bit more variety to it in terms of body types, but overall it's still a pretty solid step in the right direction.

Oh dear God a thousand times yes. Half of the time the reason sexy characters annoy me, it's because it completely contradicts either the setting or the character. Apparently Ivy from Soul Caliber is supposed to have taken an oath of chastity. Her outfit can most generously described as a bunch of string with a few random scraps of cloth. Is it really too much to ask for internal consistency from writers?
Right there with you on Ivy. Her outfit is so oversexualized that it colored my entire view of this conversation for years. People would talk about oversexualization, my brain would immediately go to Ivy, and all other complaints paled in comparison so teenage me just didn't get it.

Then one day it struck me that even Talim, my main for ages, was sexualized and even played into certain fantasies with her alternate skins. I was just distracted by the almost reasonable clothing and lack of upskirt shots and sitting on people's faces like the rest of the female cast had in Soul Caliber 2.

OT: It's a step in the right direction, but I figure they need to take a few more. I also had about the same reaction as Browder's daughter. Whose idea was it that Alexstrasza the Life-binder, essentially mother of all creation, would decide to look like that when she takes on a mortal form? Middle-aged and matronly would've suited the character so much better.
 

The Material Sheep

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LazyAza said:
The Material Sheep said:
LazyAza said:
ticklefist said:
LazyAza said:
Mercy and Widowmaker also still clearly have the whole molded boob outfit thing going on.

*snip*

Its nice that Pharah is there, she seems alright but eh her suit/design is so gender neutral and kinda boring
Well clearly there's no winning with you.
Their would be if this supposed super talented billion dollar company could hire some artists who knew what the definition of interesting character design was. The male designs aren't exactly amazing either but compared to the females at least have decent variety.
No. At one point you hate form fitting clothing and another you claim to dislike the fact that Pharah's armor is gender neutral. You are DIRECTLY contradicting yourself. The point of form fitting armor for visuals in a game like this is to show that the character is CLEARLY female. So fine... you've got options with Pharah... but apparently you don't like her because you can't tell she's a female from her armor. Like... I don't know where to go with you man.
No I'm not I said Pharah's design was uninteresting because it is so neutral. Gender neutrality is an easy/lazy alternative to 100% form fitting body suits, disliking that doesn't mean I hate it means I think they could have still done better. They could have easily found a perfect middle ground and achieved a much cooler look for her if they had. You don't need to have a character be in one extreme or the other and that seems to be all blizzard is capable of; either 100% CHECK OUT THAT ASS GUYS or 100% IS THAT A GIRL OR BOY? I can't tell!

My primary complaint is the laziness of these designs and the lack of creativity. I want more of the latter and less of the former.
If you can't see how needlessly hard to please your standards are, than I don't know how to help you. Pharah is well designed. Her character was suppose to be armored and if she'd had boob plate than people would have just complained about that too. Armor by its very definition is gender neutral when worn most of the time. I mean even than she still has a cartoonish exaggerated design that makes her distinct from the wrest of the cast.
 

cdemares

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My takeaway is the line, "I don't know. I don't know anymore."

At some point, this stuff gets to be in the eye of the beholder. To me, it just has to make sense. That, I suppose, is the line.
I would argue that Widowmaker is hypersexualized, but Mercy? She's just attractive. Being feminine and fit is not a problem. But more body diversity could lead to some more interesting (and less predictable) characters. Me? I'm always for more diversity. You can find more ways for women to be appealing. Overwatch actually has a good mix of appealing types of characters. But they're mostly predictable types. The thing about diversity is that it's an opportunity. I don't think skinny women in videogames are a crisis, but there will always be some missed opportunities. Overwatch is fine for what it is. It's not the game that's going to blow the lid off of daring and deep alternative characters.

Feminists complain about predictable female roles and characters for the same reason gamers complain about first-person self-serious shooters. Malaise at seeing the same thing repeated endlessly. Except imagine seeing the same thing your entire life. And yet we keep asking for the same thing from female characters, and god help anyone who challenges the precious status quo. We always react as though something precious will be stolen away from us forever or something. But if you want something new, somebody has to say no to the safe and predictable.

BTW, being hot is also a fantasy. Just saying. I don't have a problem with sexualized or good-looking men in games. We are inhabiting those guys and they rule. It's a part of the fantasy. But there are a lot of ways to be appealing. Alan Wake is pretty appealing. I would dig a female equivalent of a character like that. Not a super-soldier or something, but clearly smart, well-spoken and caring.
 

Lavok

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The hypocrisy of SJW's never cease to amaze



It's even funnier when you look at her back story. She's the stereotypical french femme fatale assassin archetype that reinforces the idea that women suck at CQC. On top of that, she literally has no personality and is completely subservient to another

Compared to Bayonetta who answers to no one and is in complete control of herself and her sexuality.

EDIT: And of course, Nathan Grayson wrote that article.
 

Norithics

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cdemares said:
My takeaway is the line, "I don't know. I don't know anymore."
You know, honestly I don't even think it needs to be quite as complicated as it seems when you get into the weeds of it. More than anything I think the best outcome you can ask for is, "Hey, we're aware of this issue and will remain conscious of it."

As long as that remains true, I think it can only improve. People stop leaning on old crutches and at least give an effort creatively to be different. There's this weird expectation that there's some way to strike a perfect balance, but that's just nonsensical; ultimately creations will have a personal touch and reflect the views of the people who made it in one way or another, and nobody's immune to influence.
 

DementedSheep

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I can tell by breakback angel, slutsuits sniper and the architect with the crippling inability to walk like a normal person...but hey one of them gets armour and one is kinda tomboyish and they both seem to lack awful animations from the short amount of footage that's up, woo. In contrast to the dawrfs, robots, proper mech suits and gorillas of the male cast of course but still point for not being as bad as you could have been I guess.
 

oathblade

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and in Warcraft news as a part of the graphic update Underboob added to armor.

Try failed.
 

AlexReynard

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As a man, it makes me feel uncomfortable to see so many male video game characters depicted as hyper-capable. Game companies need to consider the feelings of average gamers who can't double-jump or survive thousands of assassination attempts. I want to see them make their male protagonists more relatable. Chubbier. Clumsier. So I don't have to feel bad about seeing idealized versions of people I can never be. And don't ask me to stop letting fictional representations of my gender define my self-worth, because then you're just being sexist.

[trollface]
 

Nurb

Cynical bastard
Dec 9, 2008
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The people who would complain about it won't be happy, they'll just complain about something else.

Like the ones who complained Elle from Last Of Us wasn't "Strong and independent enough".

I miss when games decisions weren't made saying "What will ____ think of this?". It's the same wave of politically correct nonsense that ruined a lot of things during the 90's until people just got sick of it in the latter half of the decade.
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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Lavok said:
The hypocrisy of SJW's never cease to amaze



It's even funnier when you look at her back story. She's the stereotypical french femme fatale assassin archetype that reinforces the idea that women suck at CQC. On top of that, she literally has no personality and is completely subservient to another

Compared to Bayonetta who answers to no one and is in complete control of herself and her sexuality.

EDIT: And of course, Nathan Grayson wrote that article.
It's even funnier when you actually bother to read the article (preferably with a reading comprehension above a 10 year old's) and realize that the only thing that Grayson himself really contributed was praising the game for "represent[ing] a good number of different races, nationalities, and sexes" and agreeing with Metzen about there being "room to grow" for Blizzard's depiction of women. The rest is him reporting (that thing he's supposed to do remember? Or do you want him to make an article about his opinion now?) what Metzen and Kaplan said to him in an interview.

So to sum it up: you and that image are completely misrepresenting reality for the sake of whining about SJWs, which isn't surprising sadly enough.

The article, in case you'd like to actually read it before talking about it next time. [http://kotaku.com/blizzard-admits-to-over-sexualizing-women-trying-to-do-1656383872]
 

Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

Get the point
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Look Blizzard, we know about Windowmaker, we know what your saying is bullshit. You can have your sexy female characters if you want I have no problems with that but don't piss on us and tell us it's raining.
 

Ladylotus

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Lavok said:
The hypocrisy of SJW's never cease to amaze



It's even funnier when you look at her back story. She's the stereotypical french femme fatale assassin archetype that reinforces the idea that women suck at CQC. On top of that, she literally has no personality and is completely subservient to another

Compared to Bayonetta who answers to no one and is in complete control of herself and her sexuality.

EDIT: And of course, Nathan Grayson wrote that article.
I don't know which is funnier, the use of "SJW's" despite the fact that it only hurts your argument, or the fact that you believe one person represents an entire group.

Either way, your 'argument'has no merit.
 

DementedSheep

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AlexReynard said:
As a man, it makes me feel uncomfortable to see so many male video game characters depicted as hyper-capable. Game companies need to consider the feelings of average gamers who can't double-jump or survive thousands of assassination attempts. I want to see them make their male protagonists more relatable. Chubbier. Clumsier. So I don't have to feel bad about seeing idealized versions of people I can never be. And don't ask me to stop letting fictional representations of my gender define my self-worth, because then you're just being sexist.

[trollface]
Oh hey its this bullshit again. The problem is not them being too awesome. The problem is the "ideal women" is based around how pretty a place to put a cock they are. Most ways women get sexulized make them look more less competent. If you did the same shit to a guy (not just the clothes either, make them thin and have them poise that way aswell) they would get laughed at. They don't look strong, they don't look capable, scantly clad and doll faced is boring as hell and dragons crown level sexualization is outright repulsive to me. They end up looking like they should fuck off before they get someone worth a damn killed. So the problem is not that I will never be them, the problem is that would never want to be them.
 

theNater

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dragonswarrior said:
I have never heard a woman describe the Marcus Fenix (sp?) body type as sexy. I'm sure they exist, but they're probably in the minority, if not a vast minority.
Indeed; a quick look at the history of People's "sexiest man alive" winners reveals no body-builders. I also see that Johnny Depp and Brad Pitt have two wins each; I wouldn't call either of them heavily muscled.
 

Loop Stricken

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Jun 17, 2009
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MetalShadowChaos said:
Now here's a point from a personal perspective, there is one character in this image that gives me a boner on an immeasurable scale in comparison to all others.

That robot between Tracer and Winston.

Seriously.
I KNOW, RIGHT?!

I just hope it doesn't turn out to be a male. That would be awkward.
 

Dragonlayer

Aka Corporal Yakob
Dec 5, 2013
971
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Goddamnit: now that Blizzard has shown its true colours, the end is in sight for our brutal patriarchal gaming society!
 

EternallyBored

Terminally Apathetic
Jun 17, 2013
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LifeCharacter said:
Lavok said:
The hypocrisy of SJW's never cease to amaze



It's even funnier when you look at her back story. She's the stereotypical french femme fatale assassin archetype that reinforces the idea that women suck at CQC. On top of that, she literally has no personality and is completely subservient to another

Compared to Bayonetta who answers to no one and is in complete control of herself and her sexuality.

EDIT: And of course, Nathan Grayson wrote that article.
It's even funnier when you actually bother to read the article (preferably with a reading comprehension above a 10 year old's) and realize that the only thing that Grayson himself really contributed was praising the game for "represent[ing] a good number of different races, nationalities, and sexes" and agreeing with Metzen about there being "room to grow" for Blizzard's depiction of women. The rest is him reporting (that thing he's supposed to do remember? Or do you want him to make an article about his opinion now?) what Metzen and Kaplan said to him in an interview.

So to sum it up: you and that image are completely misrepresenting reality for the sake of whining about SJWs, which isn't surprising sadly enough.

The article, in case you'd like to actually read it before talking about it next time. [http://kotaku.com/blizzard-admits-to-over-sexualizing-women-trying-to-do-1656383872]
The image itself is even more stupid, the only word used in the Bayonetta 2 review that's in the image was the reviewer calling it sexist, the stuff about male gaze and misogyny seems to be entirely fabricated, and I can't seem to find anywhere that Grayson calls Bayonetta a fuck toy in the review. He also never actually calls Widowmaker acceptable, and in the article even mentions explicitly that the female characters are all super slim and some come in cat suits, so he even calls out that detail despite Metzen's assurances.

Yeah, I didn't agree with his Bayonetta 2 review at all, but he isn't being a hypocrite here, he seems to be acting consistently with the things he's written in the past, the article is almost all quotes from Metzen anyway, and Grayson's only personal words are praising the games cultural diversity, which seems true enough, and giving Metzen the benefit of the doubt despite the revealed female characters having a few of the standard sexy female character cliches running for them.

Just because Grayson found the strip pole moves and sexualization detracted from Bayonetta, does not mean that his beliefs are the simplistic caricature that they are being painted as here. It is entirely possible to find one particular portrayal to be really distracting or off-putting, whilst finding another portrayal to be not nearly so negative. Context and circumstances matter, he might very well be off-put by Widowmakers catsuit (and even calls on the tight clothing in the article), but the other characters may assuage his opinion and cause him to look at it as less of a negative, because the context of Bayonetta and Widowmaker is very different between their two games.
 

O maestre

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I don't know why but I am getting a Timesplitters vibe from this, and that is a good thing. Speaking of which why is that franchise in oblivion?
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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theNater said:
dragonswarrior said:
I have never heard a woman describe the Marcus Fenix (sp?) body type as sexy. I'm sure they exist, but they're probably in the minority, if not a vast minority.
Indeed; a quick look at the history of People's "sexiest man alive" winners reveals no body-builders. I also see that Johnny Depp and Brad Pitt have two wins each; I wouldn't call either of them heavily muscled.
DementedSheep said:
AlexReynard said:
As a man, it makes me feel uncomfortable to see so many male video game characters depicted as hyper-capable. Game companies need to consider the feelings of average gamers who can't double-jump or survive thousands of assassination attempts. I want to see them make their male protagonists more relatable. Chubbier. Clumsier. So I don't have to feel bad about seeing idealized versions of people I can never be. And don't ask me to stop letting fictional representations of my gender define my self-worth, because then you're just being sexist.

[trollface]
Oh hey its this bullshit again. The problem is not them being too awesome. The problem is the "ideal women" is based around how pretty a place to put a cock they are. Most ways women get sexulized make them look more less competent. If you did the same shit to a guy (not just the clothes either, make them thin and have them poise that way aswell) they would get laughed at. They don't look strong, they don't look capable, scantly clad and doll faced is boring as hell and dragons crown level sexualization is outright repulsive to me. They end up looking like they should fuck off before they get someone worth a damn killed. So the problem is not that I will never be them, the problem is that would never want to be them.
That's actually a really good point. When you ask most women about their ideal body image, it's always hulked-up and desperately unattractive. People just prefer to ignore the evidence in favor of going with this "women would prefer to be pretty if they could" myth. I mean, if that were true, the cosmetics industry would be doing billions instead of just barely holding on. People know on an intellectual level that the average female power fantasy is "obese and strong, given to fisticuffs" instead of this "sleek, sexy, and deadly femme fatale" nonsense we're always spoonfed.
 

Falling_v1legacy

No one of consequence
Nov 3, 2009
116
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Artaneius said:
How sad that gaming companies have to be forced to announce this kind of statement in the vain attempt to "appease" gamers with political and social agendas... Makes me very depressed that we allowed RL social issues to enter gaming communities and culture. Someone please make me a time machine where I can stay permanently in the 80s-early 00s gaming forums.
Are you sure that's what happened? From the sounds of things, these game developers became fathers, and their daughters are starting to play their games, and are questioning why the females are portrayed that way... and these fathers are thinking, you know what... they might be on to something.

And I think that's a perfectly reasonable reaction to have as a game developer and a father. I read Shamus Young's blog, and through him, I hear his daughter has a similar frustration with the lack of cool female characters she can play. That's a thing. But I suspect the whole issue moved from a generic, over-arching issue to something up-close and personal. And that got some minds shifting, and some gears turning in Blizzard. It might take awhile for a full shift, but I think it's a good shift for good reasons. Certainly nothing to sneer at because the PC guys got to Blizzard and now we're going to lose all our bikini babes that for some reason existed in a fantasy world with guns.

The Material Sheep said:
LazyAza said:
The Material Sheep said:
LazyAza said:
ticklefist said:
LazyAza said:
Mercy and Widowmaker also still clearly have the whole molded boob outfit thing going on.

*snip*

Its nice that Pharah is there, she seems alright but eh her suit/design is so gender neutral and kinda boring
Well clearly there's no winning with you.
Their would be if this supposed super talented billion dollar company could hire some artists who knew what the definition of interesting character design was. The male designs aren't exactly amazing either but compared to the females at least have decent variety.
No. At one point you hate form fitting clothing and another you claim to dislike the fact that Pharah's armor is gender neutral. You are DIRECTLY contradicting yourself. The point of form fitting armor for visuals in a game like this is to show that the character is CLEARLY female. So fine... you've got options with Pharah... but apparently you don't like her because you can't tell she's a female from her armor. Like... I don't know where to go with you man.
No I'm not I said Pharah's design was uninteresting because it is so neutral. Gender neutrality is an easy/lazy alternative to 100% form fitting body suits, disliking that doesn't mean I hate it means I think they could have still done better. They could have easily found a perfect middle ground and achieved a much cooler look for her if they had. You don't need to have a character be in one extreme or the other and that seems to be all blizzard is capable of; either 100% CHECK OUT THAT ASS GUYS or 100% IS THAT A GIRL OR BOY? I can't tell!

My primary complaint is the laziness of these designs and the lack of creativity. I want more of the latter and less of the former.
If you can't see how needlessly hard to please your standards are, than I don't know how to help you. Pharah is well designed. Her character was suppose to be armored and if she'd had boob plate than people would have just complained about that too. Armor by its very definition is gender neutral when worn most of the time. I mean even than she still has a cartoonish exaggerated design that makes her distinct from the wrest of the cast.
It really isn't though. Not when you think about what LazyAza is actually saying, rather than becoming difficult about it. There is a wider spectrum of clothing designs between Skin Tight and Power Armour. It's not a binary choice. A or not A, where A is skin tight and not A is... Power Armour and Power Armour alone.

Like 90? 99%? of women's clothes that you see everyday corresponds to this middle area in the spectrum, that middle spectrum that is supposedly 'needlessly hard to please.' The vast majority of women's clothing is definitely feminine, and yet definitely is not A) skin tight or B) Power Armour. It's really not that difficult.

Having said that, I have nothing against Pharah's Power Armour, although I prefer Trace's design better.
 

DementedSheep

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Topsider said:
theNater said:
dragonswarrior said:
I have never heard a woman describe the Marcus Fenix (sp?) body type as sexy. I'm sure they exist, but they're probably in the minority, if not a vast minority.
Indeed; a quick look at the history of People's "sexiest man alive" winners reveals no body-builders. I also see that Johnny Depp and Brad Pitt have two wins each; I wouldn't call either of them heavily muscled.
DementedSheep said:
AlexReynard said:
As a man, it makes me feel uncomfortable to see so many male video game characters depicted as hyper-capable. Game companies need to consider the feelings of average gamers who can't double-jump or survive thousands of assassination attempts. I want to see them make their male protagonists more relatable. Chubbier. Clumsier. So I don't have to feel bad about seeing idealized versions of people I can never be. And don't ask me to stop letting fictional representations of my gender define my self-worth, because then you're just being sexist.

[trollface]
Oh hey its this bullshit again. The problem is not them being too awesome. The problem is the "ideal women" is based around how pretty a place to put a cock they are. Most ways women get sexulized make them look more less competent. If you did the same shit to a guy (not just the clothes either, make them thin and have them poise that way aswell) they would get laughed at. They don't look strong, they don't look capable, scantly clad and doll faced is boring as hell and dragons crown level sexualization is outright repulsive to me. They end up looking like they should fuck off before they get someone worth a damn killed. So the problem is not that I will never be them, the problem is that would never want to be them.
That's actually a really good point. When you ask most women about their ideal body image, it's always hulked-up and desperately unattractive. People just prefer to ignore the evidence in favor of going with this "women would prefer to be pretty if they could" myth. I mean, if that were true, the cosmetics industry would be doing billions instead of just barely holding on. People know on an intellectual level that the average female power fantasy is "obese and strong, given to fisticuffs" instead of this "sleek, sexy, and deadly femme fatale" nonsense we're always spoonfed.
Right, because there absolutely nothing between hideous hulk and hypersexualised T & A and of course liking sexualised stuff some for the time or being pretty (which always lines up with oversexualized) means that's all that ever should exist and needs to take centre stage to the detriment of all else all the time even in a game centred around combat.

You can be attractive without heavily sexualized and something can be visually appealing without being what you'd call pretty. Guys in games don't generally go around scantly clad, striking ridicules sexy poses or with their ass hanging out like it's the main attraction. Dose this mean guys don't want to be physically attractive to women in any context? Guys aren't going to say gorilla or orc if you just go up and ask them what their ideal body type would be but since that's not the be all and end all for a man that doesn't stop that being made because it funny/interesting, a different type of fantasy than sexual.

Women fantasies about being stalked, having men have to fight over and save them because they can't do shit themselves, being in abusive relationships and even being raped. Are you gong to argue that's a good thing? Yeah, a lot of women are fucking stupid and perpetuate this shit to. I never said otherwise. What do you expect anyway? it get pushed from the get go that a women worth and success is all about her attractiveness to men not capabilities.
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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DementedSheep said:
Right, because there absolutely nothing between hideous hulk and hypersexualised T & A and of course liking sexualised stuff some for the time or being pretty (which of course always lines up with oversexualised) means that's all that ever should exist and needs to take centre stage to the detriment of all else all the time even in a game centred around combat.
There are a lot between hideous hulk and hypersexualized T&A. And it's guaranteed that tumblrinas and professional feminists will attack each and every thing between the two up to hideous hulk, so why not just get there?

You can be attractive without heavily sexualized and something can be visually appealing without being what you'd call pretty. Guys in games don't generally go around scantly clad, striking ridicules sexy poses or with their ass hanging out like it's the main attraction.
Guys generally don't do that in clubs in real life, either, which may be where part of the difference lies.

Dose this mean guys don't want to be physically attractive to women in any context? Guys aren't going to say gorilla or orc if you just go up and ask them what their ideal body type would be but since that's not the be all and end all for a man that doesn't stop that being made because it funny/interesting, a different type of fantasy than sexual.
Guys generally do want to be physically attractive to women, at least if they're of a heterosexual nature. Since a lot of women enjoy well-built guys with aggressive personalities and even aggressive jobs - I can tell you from experience, there are certain jobs in the military that have no problem getting laid - these fantasy personas tend to play pretty well with men.

Just as the fantasy persona of the beautiful, sexy, deadly dame play pretty well with a lot of women.

Women fantasies about being stalked, having men have to fight over and save them because they can't do shit themselves, being in abusive relationships and even being raped. Are you gong to argue that's a good thing?
I'd argue it's an irrelevant thing, in the context of this conversation.

Yeah, a lot of women are fucking stupid and perpetuate this shit to. I never said otherwise. What do you expect anyway? it get pushed from the get go that a women worth and success is all about her attractiveness to men not capabilities.
I was wondering when "it's all the patriarchy's fault!" was going to make an appearance.
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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Falling said:
It really isn't though. Not when you think about what LazyAza is actually saying, rather than becoming difficult about it. There is a wider spectrum of clothing designs between Skin Tight and Power Armour. It's not a binary choice. A or not A, where A is skin tight and not A is... Power Armour and Power Armour alone.

Like 90? 99%? of women's clothes that you see everyday corresponds to this middle area in the spectrum, that middle spectrum that is supposedly 'needlessly hard to please.' The vast majority of women's clothing is definitely feminine, and yet definitely is not A) skin tight or B) Power Armour. It's really not that difficult.

Having said that, I have nothing against Pharah's Power Armour, although I prefer Trace's design better.
Hey, I'm all for kitting out women for combat realistically in video games. You wouldn't have to change anything about the male models except the faces, make 'em a little shorter, and maybe have everything altered to an indefinably ill-fitting appearance.



Something tells me that's not going to satisfy the people upset or sell much in the way of cosmetic DLC, though.
 

A'tuin

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Ladylotus said:
Jenvas1306 said:
Ive got a little look at overwatch and I like it.
I really despise the way all female League of Legends characters looks the same and have "sexy" as one of their primary attributes. I also dislike TF2 being a sausage fest.
I am however totally fine with characters being sexy, as long as it doesn't get into the way of their job and doesn't comprimise them being badass. (it also helps if its not just the women being focused on in such a way especially in promotional art)
Overwatch has an interesting looking rooster of characters.

TDLR: sexy is fine in the right place and the right amount.

But now I gotta see more of actual gameplay. after all: its a game.
To be fair, there is (or was) someone on the League team who was trying. Annie, Kayle, Diana, Tristana, and several others are fairly well done, without oversexualization.

And then there's characters like Janna, Caitlyn, or Cassiopeia, who have no reason for the way they are dressed.

That being said, I still dislike the fact that so many characters are oversexualized, and that female characters who aren't the 'normal' model are few and far between.
Speaking of LoL champions who are illogically dressed, oiling your muscles and going shirtless in arctic tundra sure seems smart: http://www.leaguesplash.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Tryndamere-Classic-Ch.jpg

Here's another topless tundra dweller, Braum http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/Braum_0.jpg

The bicep of Muay Thai Lee Sin is larger than his head http://www.leaguesplash.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Muay-Thai-Lee-Sin.jpg

The corruption of Varus's lower body is quite careful not to cover his killer abs, or maybe he trims it between battles http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/Varus_0.jpg

Now I'm not saying LoL doesn't have too much fan service on female champions (Nami is a fish/woman with large boobs, Elise is a spider/woman with large boobs, Zyra is a plant/woman with large boobs and so on), but at least it is equally dumb with some of the guys.
 

Verlander

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Oh noes, there censoring er gayms!

OT: There's a difference between de-sexualising and refusing to oversexualise, and from what I've seen this game is walking that line majestically. Men and women can be sexy, there's no crime in that, it's just making sure that's not all women are there for.
 

OldNewNewOld

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I wish Tracer had smaller boobs. She would be the perfect tomboy with the haircut and personality.
Chance missed Blizzard, try again with Hanzo. I want him to show more skin. No seriously, I want more lewd Hanzo, don't disappoint me Blizzard.

Also only on my second time viewing the trailer did I realize that the blue robot (Pharos?) was a girl and that the Gorila was wearing glasses. That's quite a nice touch. And as far as sexualization goes, in my opinion, I would only consider the sniper to be "oversexualized" and not because of the body but because of the posture and "personality". Watching her feels like watching someone screaming "LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT MY BOOTY!". Rest is fine. Healer is sexy, but then again, it's an angel and angel are sexy. At least in fiction. But a long, white robe would be nice as an alternative skin, a more classic angel. Or an Bayonetta angel for when you're really high.

catpcha: my beating heart
Yeah, it started beating really hard when the trailer showed the close up of Hanzo.
 

Dogstile

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MarsAtlas said:
WhiteTigerShiro said:
ticklefist said:
Wow. Whoever fed you that one is completely irrational and should seek fear counseling.
I've seen it.
I'll top that, I've experienced it. I know I'm not the only one on this forum who has, either.
How do you go outside? A person saying hello is as much a "possible threat" as going outside and getting hit by a shitty driver swerving onto the pavement. You should probably try and find a professional to talk that over with, because that's not a normal train of thought.

Verlander said:
Oh noes, there censoring er gayms!

OT: There's a difference between de-sexualising and refusing to oversexualise, and from what I've seen this game is walking that line majestically. Men and women can be sexy, there's no crime in that, it's just making sure that's not all women are there for.
Well that's just it. All the female characters look physically fit, like they've spent time working out. All the male characters also look like they've worked out as well. Especially Hanzo, who is going to get so much fanfiction drawn of him.

People seem to be expecting Blizz to provide characters of every body type. This is hilarious, fat mall cop on the battlefield not only provides a huge hitbox, its also out of place.
 

DementedSheep

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Topsider said:
There are a lot between hideous hulk and hypersexualized T&A. And it's guaranteed that tumblrinas and professional feminists will attack each and every thing between the two up to hideous hulk, so why not just get there?
"I'm going to completely ignore the middle ground and reduce your argument to caricature because it's easier and I'm sure someone somewhere will complain!"
There are many female characters in games that don't get complaints.

Topsider said:
Guys generally don't do that in clubs in real life, either, which may be where part of the difference lies.
Say that to to all the dudes taking picture of themselves shirtless with their hands on their crotch and sending it to women. Women tend not to go around in catsuits in real life either and they don't pose like that since spines don't actually bend that way.

Topsider said:
Guys generally do want to be physically attractive to women, at least if they're of a heterosexual nature. Since a lot of women enjoy well-built guys with aggressive personalities and even aggressive jobs - I can tell you from experience, there are certain jobs in the military that have no problem getting laid - these fantasy personas tend to play pretty well with men.
If there also decently attractive physically, which many of the male characters aren't and again the physical sexual appeal is nowhere near the focus point. A guy having these traits doesn't automatically make then equal to hypersexaulized women. Some might find them attractive but they aren't particularly sexualized. That some men like Jade from BG&E doesn't make her a sexualized character. It not that can't sexualised a guy because you can.


This is also part of the goddamn issue. Women and men aren't valued the same. Because guys are valued on being able to do shit and being strong and women tend to find that attractive you get crossover to power fantasy easily. But the same isn't true of women. Large tits, high heels, skipmpy clothing and breakbreaking poses are just sex appeal and make them look less competent. Since I don't find being a good fuck toy a particularly great or respectable trait they don't make me want to play that character.

Topsider said:
Just as the fantasy persona of the beautiful, sexy, deadly dame play pretty well with a lot of women.
Some women some of the time and there is sexy and then there is heavy sexulized. I would much rather my female characters actually look like they kick some ass and can take or leave the sexy depending on how it's done. Again a Gorilla is not physically attractive, a robot is not physically attractive and with the mech suit you can't even see the guy. Maybe, just maybe some of us girl might want play female characters like that for the same reasons?


Topsider said:
I'd argue it's an irrelevant thing, in the context of this conversation.
The point being that just because some women do like it doesn't make it a good thing.


Topsider said:
I was wondering when "it's all the patriarchy's fault!" was going to make an appearance.
Did I say patriarchy? People are influenced by cultural exception, this a no-brainier. I blame women for half this shit but that doesn't change a thing.

Topsider said:
Falling said:
It really isn't though. Not when you think about what LazyAza is actually saying, rather than becoming difficult about it. There is a wider spectrum of clothing designs between Skin Tight and Power Armour. It's not a binary choice. A or not A, where A is skin tight and not A is... Power Armour and Power Armour alone.

Like 90? 99%? of women's clothes that you see everyday corresponds to this middle area in the spectrum, that middle spectrum that is supposedly 'needlessly hard to please.' The vast majority of women's clothing is definitely feminine, and yet definitely is not A) skin tight or B) Power Armour. It's really not that difficult.

Having said that, I have nothing against Pharah's Power Armour, although I prefer Trace's design better.
Hey, I'm all for kitting out women for combat realistically in video games. You wouldn't have to change anything about the male models except the faces, make 'em a little shorter, and maybe have everything altered to an indefinably ill-fitting appearance.



Something tells me that's not going to satisfy the people upset or sell much in the way of cosmetic DLC, though.
Actually yes if it's a modern military shooter that is how I would want female characters.
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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DementedSheep said:
"I'm going to completely ignore the middle ground and reduce your argument to caricature because it's easier and I'm sure someone where will complain!"
There are many female characters in games that don't get complaints.
That's a bold statement. I'm sure I'd have no trouble at all finding complaints about any female character you care to name.

Say that to to all the dudes taking picture of themselves shirtless with their hands on their crotch and sending it to women. Women tend not to go around in catsuits in real life either and they don't pose like that since spines don't actually bend that way.
Well, I suppose that'd be a good counterpoint if you could point me to male video game players whining endlessly about shirtless male characters in video games. Instead, we seem to not care very much.

If there also decently attractive physically, which many of the male characters aren't and again the physical sexual appeal is nowhere near the focus point. A guy having these traits doesn't automatically make then equal to hypersexaulized women. Some might find them attractive but they aren't particularly sexualized. That some men like Jade from BG&E doesn't make her a sexualized character. It not that can't sexualised a guy because you can.
I don't know what that last sentence means, because it doesn't appear to conform to any known rules of English grammar.

Aside from that, you're arguing on purely subjective qualities, using undefined terms like "hypersexualized." It sounds like you believe male characters can be presented any way the creator chooses without crossing that threshold, but only very narrow depictions of females don't cross it. Which circles us back to my "you can't win this argument against people who use these kinds of words" point.


Some women some of the time and there is sexy and there is heavy sexulized. I would much rather my female characters actually look like they kick some ass and can take or leave the sexy depending on how it's done. Again a Gorilla is not physically attractive, a robot is not physically attractive and with the mech suit you can't even see the guy. Maybe, just maybe some of us girl might want play female characters like that for the same reasons?
Point me to some of these girls who look like they kick ass? I've apparently missed 'em all, because I can only think of Samus when she's in her armor. Otherwise, we're talking about the same old Whedon-style "waif-fu" bullshit where the guy falls down when he's hit because he's a trained stuntman, not because 5'4" 115-pound women are throwing around crazy powerful punches.


The point being that just because some women do like it doesn't make it a good thing.
And some women not liking it doesn't make it a bad thing, unless your contention is that some women are just doing "being female" wrong.


Did I say patriarchy? People are influenced by cultural exception, this a no-brainier. I blame women for half this shit but that doesn't change a thing.
Neither does slacktivism, for the record.

Actually yes if it's a modern military shooter that is about how I would want female characters.
I'm not sure how well a modern military shooter set in a non-combat arms MOS would actually sell. I suppose you could always have the IDF be the protagonists, though.
 

Kargathia

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BigTuk said:
Kargathia said:
BigTuk said:
Not alienate well let's put it this way.. which is fairer.. thoseoversexualized characters that appeal half their base and modesty mods for those that don't ... or non sexualized figures that appeal to the otgher half and jiggle mods for the other half?


See this is why the discussion on such things goes nowhere.. it is pretty much a binary question.. who do you please the side you don't pick is always going to resent you foir making them do more workregardless of which side it is. Plus we've kinda seen the blizzacti isn't a big fan of their games being modded by third parties I mean look at D3?

Otherwise.. I am okay with mods and such seriously I am... but
Things are hardly as binary as you make them appear - there is no magic tipping point where a part of the audience decides it's too (un)sexualised for them, and they'll give it a pass.

There are quite a few ways to have sexy characters without resorting to chain-mail bikinis, ass gaps, and double-F jiggle physics.
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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Kargathia said:
BigTuk said:
Kargathia said:
BigTuk said:
Not alienate well let's put it this way.. which is fairer.. thoseoversexualized characters that appeal half their base and modesty mods for those that don't ... or non sexualized figures that appeal to the otgher half and jiggle mods for the other half?


See this is why the discussion on such things goes nowhere.. it is pretty much a binary question.. who do you please the side you don't pick is always going to resent you foir making them do more workregardless of which side it is. Plus we've kinda seen the blizzacti isn't a big fan of their games being modded by third parties I mean look at D3?

Otherwise.. I am okay with mods and such seriously I am... but
Things are hardly as binary as you make them appear - there is no magic tipping point where a part of the audience decides it's too (un)sexualised for them, and they'll give it a pass.

There are quite a few ways to have sexy characters without resorting to chain-mail bikinis, ass gaps, and double-F jiggle physics.
*sigh*

You often hear of 'Missing the forest for the trees' but no matter how many times I see it action it amazes me that I can't tell if it's deliberate or accidental. Here is a perfect example... focusing on the specifics of my example rather than trying to grasp the larger message. Well...you can lead them to water but you can't make them drink as the saying goes.

I will say this. Y'all need to stop being so easily impressed. As I said, blizzard has done nothing but pick the right set of adjectives to describe something they'd done. Oversexualize is a nebulous term, it means something different for everyone. It's like someone saying they didn't make the food too spicy. Sure...what it means is 'I did the exact same thing I always do with the seasoning I just made it sound like I did more'.

Never mind that many other game devs have been doing the exact same thing but didn't feel the need to make it a Press Release over it. Heck even Mass Effect did it. None of the women are over endowed their armor pretty much covers them completely and is functional. And that's Mass Effect.

So again...you're oohing and ahhhing over blizzard making a big show of doing something that many devs and publishers have been doing over the last decade or more. You're doing the equivalent of clapping a 10 year old who just went potty all by himself :p.
 

Erttheking

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Nurb said:
The people who would complain about it won't be happy, they'll just complain about something else.

Like the ones who complained Elle from Last Of Us wasn't "Strong and independent enough".

I miss when games decisions weren't made saying "What will ____ think of this?". It's the same wave of politically correct nonsense that ruined a lot of things during the 90's until people just got sick of it in the latter half of the decade.
You mean that one time that everyone on this website jumped on them and told them they were talking out of their ass? Including the hardcore "SJWs" on this website? I think you might be blowing things out of proportion a bit, unless you're saying you're not gonna be happy until no one no where ever complains about the portrayal of female characters, in which case you're gonna be in for a very unhappy life, because there is always gonna be someone somewhere that will complain about everything.

Jesus could descend from the heavens tomorrow, erase all the evils from the world and bring about world peace, ensure everyone a position in heaven regardless of their religion or misdeeds and there would still be someone who would complain about it
 

lionsprey

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i was buying it until i saw widowmaker. i mean come on does the woman not know how to work a zip?
 

NoX 9

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Nobody really seems to agree what would be right and wrong for female character design... Personally, I don't really know. What I do know is that when I play my games I like to enjoy what my character looks and plays like. I actually think Bayonetta is a pretty cool looking character, though I've never played the games. She is sexy and confident, but it doesn't feel out of place.

As an example of what DOES annoy me; when I played WoW many years ago with my friend and we moved to a new area, he got himself a sweet looking new armor. It wasn't too big and bulky, had sweet red highlights and made his character look like an utter badass.


I just want to look cool, ok?! I don't mind that my character has slender hips and full breasts, I wouldn't mind being slender and sexy in real life! But when I get some tall boots and a red/pinkish bikini with a fucking HEART on it... Fuck, I was just so disapointed... I enjoyed the clothing I had gotten until this point, they had mostly been cool. Surely people MUST be able to understand why I dislike this? I didn't even feel like playing the game after getting that thing... It's silly I know -I could just have gotten something else and sold this thing-, but it just left such a bad taste in my mouth. I didn't feel like going back there anymore.
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

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AlexReynard said:
As a man, it makes me feel uncomfortable to see so many male video game characters depicted as hyper-capable. Game companies need to consider the feelings of average gamers who can't double-jump or survive thousands of assassination attempts. I want to see them make their male protagonists more relatable. Chubbier. Clumsier. So I don't have to feel bad about seeing idealized versions of people I can never be. And don't ask me to stop letting fictional representations of my gender define my self-worth, because then you're just being sexist.

[trollface]
They actually did some games like that. Ultima 8... Lester the Unlikely... I hear they weren't very well received :p
 

garjian

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MarsAtlas said:
garjian said:
I've seen enough reports of "See in this gameplay footage how this woman is brutally shot to death, and the player receives a point" to know there are people offended by the simple inclusion of females in any form.
Context, because who needs it, amirite? So much easier to not try to understand and intentionally misrepresent somebody's point.
Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? Disregard for context is exactly what I was complaining about.
 

Batou667

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DementedSheep said:
The problem is not them being too awesome. The problem is the "ideal women" is based around how pretty a place to put a cock they are. Most ways women get sexulized make them look more less competent. If you did the same shit to a guy (not just the clothes either, make them thin and have them poise that way aswell) they would get laughed at. They don't look strong, they don't look capable, scantly clad and doll faced is boring as hell and dragons crown level sexualization is outright repulsive to me. They end up looking like they should fuck off before they get someone worth a damn killed. So the problem is not that I will never be them, the problem is that would never want to be them.
Not to single you out, but your post encapsulates the usual kind of complaint about male and female character designs. I personally think the standard claim that "Both males and females are portrayed unrealistically, but females are sexualised, the buff men showing flesh are power fantasies so there's no parity!" comes from an idealised post-gender reference point without acknowledging current cultural norms.

I think it's more accurate to say that male and female protagonists in games are depicted not so much as "capable" for men[footnote]Many male protagonists run around with minimal armour and completely under-equipped for the situation they're in, getting killed hundreds of times during a typical campaign playthrough[/footnote] or "desirable" for women, as they're designed to embody a male or feminine prestigious ideal. The idea is that certain male traits carry social prestige - capability, strength, large stature, command of technology, whatever - and these traits don't map directly onto female characters. Female protagonists have a different, "female" set of cool points - and these are generally limited to sex appeal, an aesthetic body type, and an appealing outfit. Condescending and horribly limiting? Possibly, but these limitations weren't invented by videogames - they're cues taken from the wider society we live in. And, anybody tempted to dispute the idea that sex, physique and fashion are key parts of female aspirational culture, please pick up a copy of Cosmopolitan.

If people want to try challenging this, fine. There are many valid reasons to do so. My issue is that in making demands of the game industry we're addressing the symptom rather than the cause. Companies such as Blizzard might be pressured to the point where they become aware of the issue or make lip-service attempts to provide more options, but ultimately they're always going to chase profit - and that means catering to the tastes of the majority.

Folji said:
What about Blizzard general representation of male characters, those square-jawed, muscle-bound figured sculpted in the image of gods as an example of a proper physique? From Death to Chris Redfield and the always mentioned He-Man; guys whose bodies stand beyond any realistic expectation are pretty much all over, but no-one ever pays much attention to them. Characters whose bodies were obviously made for girls to enjoy and for guys to aspire to, kind of like the tight-fit and body-showing bikini suits of female characters tends to be the other way around--guys enjoy them, girls aspire to them.
Yeah, I've always found it a bit weird when people claim that muscular male protagonists are only male power fantasies and not sexualised because "no women like men who look like that!". Firstly, try not telling women what their tastes are, hmm? Secondly, why assume the two are mutually exclusive? Seems to me to be pretty obvious that a (heterosexual) man would aspire to an image that women find attractive.

For evidence, let's look at the kind of man who appears on the cover of women's erotic novels:


Or, what about the kind of men who women actually pay good money to see strip?


So, where does this silly idea come from, that says women don't find muscular, athletic, testosterone-dripping and assertive men, sexually appealing? Likewise, how did we arrive at the denial that women find playing as attractive, sexy characters empowering (easily disproved by looking at the female-designed characters of Skullgirls)? My guess is that they share a source: the left-wing, progressive and somewhat sex-negative spaces online like Tumblr, where a vocal minority have been making a lot of noise and claim to speak for the majority.
 

Kargathia

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BigTuk said:
[spoiler = snip snap]
Kargathia said:
BigTuk said:
Kargathia said:
BigTuk said:
Not alienate well let's put it this way.. which is fairer.. thoseoversexualized characters that appeal half their base and modesty mods for those that don't ... or non sexualized figures that appeal to the otgher half and jiggle mods for the other half?


See this is why the discussion on such things goes nowhere.. it is pretty much a binary question.. who do you please the side you don't pick is always going to resent you foir making them do more workregardless of which side it is. Plus we've kinda seen the blizzacti isn't a big fan of their games being modded by third parties I mean look at D3?

Otherwise.. I am okay with mods and such seriously I am... but
Things are hardly as binary as you make them appear - there is no magic tipping point where a part of the audience decides it's too (un)sexualised for them, and they'll give it a pass.

There are quite a few ways to have sexy characters without resorting to chain-mail bikinis, ass gaps, and double-F jiggle physics.
*sigh*

You often hear of 'Missing the forest for the trees' but no matter how many times I see it action it amazes me that I can't tell if it's deliberate or accidental. Here is a perfect example... focusing on the specifics of my example rather than trying to grasp the larger message. Well...you can lead them to water but you can't make them drink as the saying goes.

I will say this. Y'all need to stop being so easily impressed. As I said, blizzard has done nothing but pick the right set of adjectives to describe something they'd done. Oversexualize is a nebulous term, it means something different for everyone. It's like someone saying they didn't make the food too spicy. Sure...what it means is 'I did the exact same thing I always do with the seasoning I just made it sound like I did more'.

Never mind that many other game devs have been doing the exact same thing but didn't feel the need to make it a Press Release over it. Heck even Mass Effect did it. None of the women are over endowed their armor pretty much covers them completely and is functional. And that's Mass Effect.

So again...you're oohing and ahhhing over blizzard making a big show of doing something that many devs and publishers have been doing over the last decade or more. You're doing the equivalent of clapping a 10 year old who just went potty all by himself :p.[/spoiler]
Heh, for all your dramatics you might've missed the part where I'm giving Blizzard a standing ovation.

It's not often I have to quote myself, but I felt that here it might be appropriate.

Kargathia said:
Yea.... don't get me wrong, I loved the general aesthetic of their trailers so far, but if this is "less sexualised", they really have a loooooooong way ahead of them.
(I'm really not sure why BB code decided to go haywire)

Beyond that this particular discussion has only involved me arguing that there definitely exists a sweet spot of less-than-hyper-sexualised characters, probably a bit south of what all too often is the norm. If people want to go ahead and mod their jiggle physics and combat panties, good on them.

In the end it all comes down to whether target demographics have truly shifted as much as I suspect, with adolescent males being far from ubiquitous as they once were.
 

Tsukuyomi

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Metzen, you got points in my book again. After what happened with WoW, you got points in my book. It's been awhile, man, welcome back.

As far as Widowmaker goes...eh. Yeah, I guess she's sexualized, but speaking for myself, I didn't really notice. Furthermore there wasn't any points where I felt like they were shoving her in the scene trying to MAKE me notice. In the gameplay trailer, I noticed everyone, and they did a good job of selling every character mostly equally.

and yes, they're TRYING. Is that really such a bad thing? It's not perfect, as there's still fantasies, both male and female fantasies, that can be and are played to. But it's a step in the right direction while still having some fun. Widowmaker is one character out of the many we've seen so far. I'm all for gender equality, but part of gaming is fufilling fantasies and having experiences we'd normally never have.

Yes there's some skin-tight pants and some body-suits. Okay, not GOOD, but not overly awful either. There's also Pharah and Mercy, and I'll throw in Tracer because despite the spandex pants, she's pretty well covered and the design doesn't say "we want her to be sexy" to me. In fact the ONLY design that says that to me is Widowmaker's. Everyone else is simply...there.

Furthermore, if we're gonna talk sexist, since some folks like to bring up the old 'damsel in distress' role that was so prevalent in gaming, let's talk about what the ladies in Overwatch DO. Not just their designs, but what they DO in game.

Tracer: hyper, giggling, bat-outta-hell that drops enemies because they blinked at the wrong moment. Multiple times she's seen holding her own and getting kills.

Symmetra: An Engineer-esque class, but she's still on the front line and appears to be able to not just bring utility in teleporters but, from the gameplay trailers, may be able to set up many turrets, meaning that she wins not just on raw firepower (use more gun), or the curves of her body, but on her intelligence and tactical insight. She sets up, you die when you step in the room. Not her fault she has the superior position.

Pharah:....woman in power-armor flying and (at one point) basically unleashing a barrage of micro-rockets to mop up multiple people. The armor doesn't even look particularly sexy. She appears at multiple points in the gameplay trailer and is almost ALWAYS contributing actively and filling body-bags.

Mercy: Like Symmetra, there's a class-limitation here, but she still gets the job done. Male or female, one doesn't expect the Medic to do too much badassery, but she dropped a few people I believe, and she has an IN-BATTLE RESURRECTION ABILITY. Oh, you wanna kill her team? Mercy says no. ****. You. Take your ass home.

Widowmaker: Yes, yes, outfit, booty glitch, we know. Again, they're trying. No one is perfect. But let's be honest: she fills body-bags. She's not dancing on a pole, she's not shoving her butt or her boobs into the camera, she's taking lives. Even in the cinematic trailer she's the smart one in addition to holding her own; deciding that it's time to be gone when things go against herself and Reaper.

----------------------------------

I appreciate the concerns but I feel like sometimes, not all the time but sometimes, we're snapping at shadows with this sexism thing. We're so on the watch for even the tiniest HINT of something that MIGHT be sexist, that sometimes it feels a bit ridiculous and it feels like we're not giving the developers any kind of credit or any room to show us that they've improved.

I'm all for equality in gaming, honestly I am. It just feels like, despite the best of intentions, we go overboard sometimes with this stuff. Let's look at the bigger picture beyond what the characters look like. Let's give the developers time to improve and work WITH them instead of flogging them with scorn over every little thing. Let's allow for the fact that gaming is a fantasy and maybe part of a female fantasy is being able to say "yes, I DID just get top kills for this match AND I've got THIS good of a body!" Let's also concede that everyone has needs. Perverted people are going to be perverted people. Rule 34 exists for a reason. Closing them off and saying "NO! YOU CAN'T HAVE THAT!" only creates resentment.

Work with them, have some patience. Metzen is right: from where I sit, they ARE trying. It's not perfect, they have a ways to go, but they ARE trying.
 

Loop Stricken

Covered in bees!
Jun 17, 2009
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NoX 9 said:
As an example of what DOES annoy me; when I played WoW many years ago with my friend and we moved to a new area, he got himself a sweet looking new armor. It wasn't too big and bulky, had sweet red highlights and made his character look like an utter badass.

If it helps, there's pretty much no examples of that post-Burning Crusade. At most, some of the chest armours show a bit of midriff. Yes it's a bit silly, but it's pretty sparse too.

I mean, this is how my paladin looks nowadays:
 

rbstewart7263

New member
Nov 2, 2010
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erttheking said:
synobal said:
Wish they'd just take out female characters at this point, all these stupid articles are not worth it. Linking to Kotaku also, surely the escapist has better standards?
Because art is something you have to work and suffer for and if you can't handle any criticism you probably should've picked a different career? Honestly, just because you don't care about these issues, doesn't mean other people don't. And if your biggest problem with this is that you're tired of reading all the articles about it, then frankly I think we're in a good place

OT: Overwatch is certainly a step in the right direction, I love the design for Tracer espically, but it's an example of "Evolution not Revolution". We've still got Widowmaker showing her boobs off, we've still got boob plates, we've still got all the female characters being attractive and obviously human, still limited body types (With the possible exception of Pahrah) all of the women being fairly small where as the guys can range from being small to huge, to being a gorilla or a robot.

Still I don't want to underplay the steps Blizzard is taking here and I am looking forward to this game. We've just got a long way to go.
This is true. I think that the sexy women should stay and that blizzzard should just add in some of what you suggested to increase the range of female characters like how you mentioned. This way they will be at parity with the male characters.Actually the males need more sexy characters to truly be at parity but one character/ model at a time.

That sound like a perfectly reasoned middle ground for everyone where No side is completely left to the curb?
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

New member
Apr 28, 2011
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Kargathia said:
BigTuk said:
[spoiler = snip snap]
Kargathia said:
BigTuk said:
Kargathia said:
BigTuk said:
Not alienate well let's put it this way.. which is fairer.. thoseoversexualized characters that appeal half their base and modesty mods for those that don't ... or non sexualized figures that appeal to the otgher half and jiggle mods for the other half?


See this is why the discussion on such things goes nowhere.. it is pretty much a binary question.. who do you please the side you don't pick is always going to resent you foir making them do more workregardless of which side it is. Plus we've kinda seen the blizzacti isn't a big fan of their games being modded by third parties I mean look at D3?

Otherwise.. I am okay with mods and such seriously I am... but
Things are hardly as binary as you make them appear - there is no magic tipping point where a part of the audience decides it's too (un)sexualised for them, and they'll give it a pass.

There are quite a few ways to have sexy characters without resorting to chain-mail bikinis, ass gaps, and double-F jiggle physics.

Kargathia said:
Yea.... don't get me wrong, I loved the general aesthetic of their trailers so far, but if this is "less sexualised", they really have a loooooooong way ahead of them.
(I'm really not sure why BB code decided to go haywire)

Beyond that this particular discussion has only involved me arguing that there definitely exists a sweet spot of less-than-hyper-sexualised characters, probably a bit south of what all too often is the norm. If people want to go ahead and mod their jiggle physics and combat panties, good on them.

In the end it all comes down to whether target demographics have truly shifted as much as I suspect, with adolescent males being far from ubiquitous as they once were.
I hope they never find that sweet spot..see trying to take the median approach only leads us to a new brand of 'safe' and 'generic' games. Trying to find something that pleases everyone is basically how you wind up with a product that doesn't quite please anyone. Basically it'd be the equivalent of a McDonald's burger. It's safe.. inoffensive and serviceable.. but at the same time not particularly memorable.

Say what you want about hyper sexualized characters but the funny thing is.. people 'remember' those characters more than the more safe characters. DOA Beach Volleyball may have been terrible but hey.. years later it's still being mentioned and talked about. As opposed to Phantasy Star, Mirror's Edge Ico, etc...

Have demographics really changed... probably not.. see the behaviour of demographics is something that must be observed.. there are questions that you will just never get an honest answer to... not so much because people are liars but because of S.A.B or R.A.B. People will say one thing but then their actions say an entirely different thing. People may say that they're against overly sexy characters buuut the historic and even current sales figures paint a different story.

Honestly my biggest beef is with the fact that blizzard is milking the fact that they did nothing by simply making it sound like they did. Where as a game like Loadout did it far more effectively and genuinely with very little fan fare about it. Empowered bad ass female protagonist.. Sanctum did that years ago without much fanfare. People will give praise to those who in fact did nothing and overlook the efforts over those that actually do something just based on what the person says about what they did.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

More Lego Goats Please!
May 17, 2011
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Not really seeing what I would like as far as female options. Skin tight clothes are worse than showing more skin as far as my preference. Lack of female body types is what I primarily see here, and I think shorts and skirts are great too and would like to not have a character that is covered from head to toe. Showing skin =/= objectification, however having the same body types IS bad, and has more of an effect on young girls body image than showing them in skirts and shorts that girls actually wear.

To me, hiding female skin is worse than skin tight suits in uncommon female body types, these body types do not even look like athletic girls.. Some girls are busty, some girls are athletic, some girls are petite, and I am not seeing the variety that we see just by lining up a few random girls anywhere you go, and I would like to see more of that variety in games.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
24,760
0
0
BigTuk said:
I hope they never find that sweet spot..see trying to take the median approach only leads us to a new brand of 'safe' and 'generic' games.
Aaaand...what? We're not done with the current brand of "safe" and "generic" games?

Seems a lateral move at worst.
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

New member
Apr 28, 2011
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Zachary Amaranth said:
BigTuk said:
I hope they never find that sweet spot..see trying to take the median approach only leads us to a new brand of 'safe' and 'generic' games.
Aaaand...what? We're not done with the current brand of "safe" and "generic" games?

Seems a lateral move at worst.
Nope right now we're at a safe point in mechanics and aesthetics... do we really want to and a safe spot for character design as well?
 

Kargathia

New member
Jul 16, 2009
1,657
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BigTuk said:
Kargathia said:
BigTuk said:
[spoiler = snip snap]
Kargathia said:
BigTuk said:
Kargathia said:
BigTuk said:
Not alienate well let's put it this way.. which is fairer.. thoseoversexualized characters that appeal half their base and modesty mods for those that don't ... or non sexualized figures that appeal to the otgher half and jiggle mods for the other half?


See this is why the discussion on such things goes nowhere.. it is pretty much a binary question.. who do you please the side you don't pick is always going to resent you foir making them do more workregardless of which side it is. Plus we've kinda seen the blizzacti isn't a big fan of their games being modded by third parties I mean look at D3?

Otherwise.. I am okay with mods and such seriously I am... but
Things are hardly as binary as you make them appear - there is no magic tipping point where a part of the audience decides it's too (un)sexualised for them, and they'll give it a pass.

There are quite a few ways to have sexy characters without resorting to chain-mail bikinis, ass gaps, and double-F jiggle physics.

Kargathia said:
Yea.... don't get me wrong, I loved the general aesthetic of their trailers so far, but if this is "less sexualised", they really have a loooooooong way ahead of them.
(I'm really not sure why BB code decided to go haywire)

Beyond that this particular discussion has only involved me arguing that there definitely exists a sweet spot of less-than-hyper-sexualised characters, probably a bit south of what all too often is the norm. If people want to go ahead and mod their jiggle physics and combat panties, good on them.

In the end it all comes down to whether target demographics have truly shifted as much as I suspect, with adolescent males being far from ubiquitous as they once were.
I hope they never find that sweet spot..see trying to take the median approach only leads us to a new brand of 'safe' and 'generic' games. Trying to find something that pleases everyone is basically how you wind up with a product that doesn't quite please anyone. Basically it'd be the equivalent of a McDonald's burger. It's safe.. inoffensive and serviceable.. but at the same time not particularly memorable.

Say what you want about hyper sexualized characters but the funny thing is.. people 'remember' those characters more than the more safe characters. DOA Beach Volleyball may have been terrible but hey.. years later it's still being mentioned and talked about. As opposed to Phantasy Star, Mirror's Edge Ico, etc...

Have demographics really changed... probably not.. see the behaviour of demographics is something that must be observed.. there are questions that you will just never get an honest answer to... not so much because people are liars but because of S.A.B or R.A.B. People will say one thing but then their actions say an entirely different thing. People may say that they're against overly sexy characters buuut the historic and even current sales figures paint a different story.

Honestly my biggest beef is with the fact that blizzard is milking the fact that they did nothing by simply making it sound like they did. Where as a game like Loadout did it far more effectively and genuinely with very little fan fare about it. Empowered bad ass female protagonist.. Sanctum did that years ago without much fanfare. People will give praise to those who in fact did nothing and overlook the efforts over those that actually do something just based on what the person says about what they did.
You do have a point in that diversity definitely is a good thing.

As to whether sexualised characters are better remembered... I'm pretty sure none of your examples their "legacy" has anything to do with sexualisation.
DoA most definitely did not wait till Beach Volleyball to bring out the melons.
Phantasy Star I honestly didn't even know up to now, but that's hardly the same as being forgotten.
Mirror's Edge is memorable more due to its gameplay and aesthetics than due to its protagonist, who was designed well, and inoffensively.
Both Mirror's Edge, and Ico are very much remembered still - not always because they were flawless games (looking at you there, Mirror's Edge), but because they were unique in all multiple aspects, not just character design.

Sales figures haven't painted anything at all resembling a trend for sex selling across all genres.

Whereas you're mostly correct in that many other games already did this whole thing well without much of a fuss, it would indeed mean a change in direction for Blizzard, which is something people are apparently happy about.

Food for thought: if Blizzard gets to pat itself on the chest for doing something others did without much of a fuss, is that Blizzard's fault, or did other companies simply miss an opportunity for advertising themselves?
 

Aaron Sylvester

New member
Jul 1, 2012
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Loop Stricken said:
NoX 9 said:
As an example of what DOES annoy me; when I played WoW many years ago with my friend and we moved to a new area, he got himself a sweet looking new armor. It wasn't too big and bulky, had sweet red highlights and made his character look like an utter badass.

If it helps, there's pretty much no examples of that post-Burning Crusade. At most, some of the chest armours show a bit of midriff. Yes it's a bit silly, but it's pretty sparse too.

I mean, this is how my paladin looks nowadays:
Post-transmog there are a LOT of players who use the old (and very few) pieces of skimpy cloth and plate armor for their look.




Personally I wish there were more sets like that...not exactly "hurr durr bikini" but styled and artfully designed around being revealing, like how GW2 handles it.

There's no doubt those sets would be immensely popular ...Blizzard know that, and are trying their best to stay away from that :p
 

Sarah LeBoeuf

New member
Apr 28, 2011
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Kargathia said:
You do have a point in that diversity definitely is a good thing.

As to whether sexualised characters are better remembered... I'm pretty sure none of your examples their "legacy" has anything to do with sexualisation.
DoA most definitely did not wait till Beach Volleyball to bring out the melons.
Phantasy Star I honestly didn't even know up to now, but that's hardly the same as being forgotten.
Mirror's Edge is memorable more due to its gameplay and aesthetics than due to its protagonist, who was designed well, and inoffensively.
Both Mirror's Edge, and Ico are very much remembered still - not always because they were flawless games (looking at you there, Mirror's Edge), but because they were unique in all multiple aspects, not just character design.

Sales figures haven't painted anything at all resembling a trend for sex selling across all genres.

Whereas you're mostly correct in that many other games already did this whole thing well without much of a fuss, it would indeed mean a change in direction for Blizzard, which is something people are apparently happy about.

Food for thought: if Blizzard gets to pat itself on the chest for doing something others did without much of a fuss, is that Blizzard's fault, or did other companies simply miss an opportunity for advertising themselves?
Blizzard patting themselves for doing something small is one thing.. but patting themselves for doing nothing...yeah I'm not blaming blizzard as much as I blame others for swallowing the marketing PR spiel hook line and fishing rod. I suppose this is what has people crying out for 'journalistic ethics' in a field that was never about journalism :p
 

Ticklefist

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Jul 19, 2010
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And to think that the rest of the internet is excited about this game.

This is what happens when you draw people in with negative, cynical content. You get negative and cynical readers.