Blizzard "Trying Not to Oversexualize" Female Overwatch Characters

[Sanderpower]

What's the big deal? Different female forms that are more realistic? Sounds fine to me. I don't know why anybody would be against it.

 

[Elijah Newton]

So one out of five female characters not being in a form fitting outfit counts as "trying"?

why wouldnt they be in form fitting clothing? fighting with guns is hard enough without your clothes getting in the way. its the reason real life female troops also use form fitting clothes - so they dont flail around and make it harder for you to battle.

The problem is this is what women look like:
http://www.shopyourshape.com/body-shapes/

Spoiler: This is what women look like in Form fitting clothing.

Spoiler: This is what women look like that kick ass.

Spoiler: This is what they made instead.

When you actually look at the body types of the women who kick ass for real, it is not anywhere close to the unrealistic body types they portray in games. These women somehow are able to supposedly kick ass in this game do so without muscles.
This is just another one of those games that will give girls a negative self image due to the odd portrayal of the female body types.
They have males portrayed in many shapes and sizes, but not so for the females.

I am very late to this party but have quite enjoyed reading your posts Lil devils x. This first set of references was terrific. If you didn't get a lot of applause for them (apologies, haven't the time to read through nine pages of forum ), you should've. The later pics of gymnasts reminded me that the shoulder muscles are generally underdeveloped on female characters.

I'm fairly optimistic about things changing in the long run. I'd rather change came faster, though, but IMHO it's discussions like this which will wind up shaping the next generation of artists and producers.

 

[x EvilErmine x]

Well I know I'm late to the party here (First I've herd about this game) but, so what? Why is this news? Isn't this the way you should be designing your characters anyway? Well unless your'e making a hentai game that is.

Also smells a lot like TF2. So new IP is it then Blizzard?

 

[Strazdas]

The muscles are not minimal to other women looking at them. Of course guys muscles are huge, but it isn't like ours are nonexistent.. except on these characters. WOmen compare woment o other women, not to men's muscles. Muscle mass does not mean hero however having strong legs means you can run fast, having strong arms means you can hold that GIANT GUN steady. Ever shoot anything stronger than a glock 9? Most guns have a kick, and the more firepower they have the more kick they have. It takes some serious strength and digging in to accurately fire weapons when you are light weight. Rifles and shot guns knock me off balance and make me black and blue. Even Shooting a glock 40 takes both hands and muscles to hold steady enough to hit your target due to the kick.

Muscles =/= hero, however, they are needed if you want to be able to run, jump kick, shoot or fight. If that is what the hero is expected to do, the hero should at least have the minimum muscles required to do so. UGH tracers legs look so wimpy. I had SUPER skinny toothpick legs as a kid, and I know how much you twist your ankles and get hurt due to them. Gymnastics strengthened them for me, and without gymnastics I would not be able to walk without twisting my ankles every week even now. Her legs look so weak it makes me sad and reminds me why I worked so hard to strengthen mine. The truth is when your legs are that skinny, you get injured a lot, it doesn't make you tough, it makes you weak.

Why did you kept comparing them to mens muscles if you now claim they are uncomparable. And while yes, women have muscles obviuosly, when wearing regular clothing in most cases they are not seen.

Yeah, see, thats the thing i was talking about from the start. having physical strenght does not equal visible muscles. that is a false myth perpetrated by people who think culturists are strong. in fact strongest people (olympic lifters) often have far less visible muscle mass. especially women where hormones make the muscles look differently. Lack of visible muscles does not mean that a person is weak.

If we talk about gun knockback, then lets be fair, in almost every game this is portrayed way less than it is in reality whether the characters are male or female. holding gun incorrectly may mean that the knockback literally shatters your bones. meanwhile in games (and movies) all kinds of shit happen with guns. We accept that for better enjoyment of the game/movie. i mean sure you may not accept it but its unreasonable to demand this just because you personally cant handle this suspension of disbelief.

Im sorry but if you really cannot walk without twisting your ankles without doing gymnastics maybe your just walking wrong? Because that does not seen to be a problem for the rest of us. Its unrealistic to expect everyone to twist their ankles just because you did.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

The muscles are not minimal to other women looking at them. Of course guys muscles are huge, but it isn't like ours are nonexistent.. except on these characters. WOmen compare woment o other women, not to men's muscles. Muscle mass does not mean hero however having strong legs means you can run fast, having strong arms means you can hold that GIANT GUN steady. Ever shoot anything stronger than a glock 9? Most guns have a kick, and the more firepower they have the more kick they have. It takes some serious strength and digging in to accurately fire weapons when you are light weight. Rifles and shot guns knock me off balance and make me black and blue. Even Shooting a glock 40 takes both hands and muscles to hold steady enough to hit your target due to the kick.

Muscles =/= hero, however, they are needed if you want to be able to run, jump kick, shoot or fight. If that is what the hero is expected to do, the hero should at least have the minimum muscles required to do so. UGH tracers legs look so wimpy. I had SUPER skinny toothpick legs as a kid, and I know how much you twist your ankles and get hurt due to them. Gymnastics strengthened them for me, and without gymnastics I would not be able to walk without twisting my ankles every week even now. Her legs look so weak it makes me sad and reminds me why I worked so hard to strengthen mine. The truth is when your legs are that skinny, you get injured a lot, it doesn't make you tough, it makes you weak.

Why did you kept comparing them to mens muscles if you now claim they are uncomparable. And while yes, women have muscles obviuosly, when wearing regular clothing in most cases they are not seen.

Yeah, see, thats the thing i was talking about from the start. having physical strenght does not equal visible muscles. that is a false myth perpetrated by people who think culturists are strong. in fact strongest people (olympic lifters) often have far less visible muscle mass. especially women where hormones make the muscles look differently. Lack of visible muscles does not mean that a person is weak.

If we talk about gun knockback, then lets be fair, in almost every game this is portrayed way less than it is in reality whether the characters are male or female. holding gun incorrectly may mean that the knockback literally shatters your bones. meanwhile in games (and movies) all kinds of shit happen with guns. We accept that for better enjoyment of the game/movie. i mean sure you may not accept it but its unreasonable to demand this just because you personally cant handle this suspension of disbelief.

Im sorry but if you really cannot walk without twisting your ankles without doing gymnastics maybe your just walking wrong? Because that does not seen to be a problem for the rest of us. Its unrealistic to expect everyone to twist their ankles just because you did.

I wasn't comparing their actual muscles to men's muscles, I was comparing them to WOMENS muscles (hence all the pictures of women's muscles). The only thing I compared to the men was the fact that they were actually given muscles at all. By women's standards those women are lacking women's muscles. LOL

When wearing form fitting attire, women's muscles are seen. Just because you do not notice them does not mean other women don't notice them. They are there, we see them on ourselves and we see them on other women. Our muscles affect how we walk, how we stand, how our clothing fits us, and it is blatantly obvious when looking at widow makers arms there are no muscles there, and when looking at tracers legs they are not there as well, even adding a bit of a curve to either would make all the difference in the world.

OH please.. I HAD her toothpick legs, you cannot tell me that those legs are not weak, because I have actually lived with them before,and yea those types of legs make you get hurt all the damn time and I hated it.

It has nothing to do with my walking, it is what happens when your legs and ankles are WEAK. That was the first thing my coach gave me homework on because she told me straight up from day 1, "you are never going to be able to land without having the muscles to do so" and she could have never been more right.

Telling me I was walking wrong.. Seriously? " The rest of us" You can have " thin" legs without them begin as weak as tracers.. Mine were as weak as tracers.

 

[feycreature]

This is the part where I want to pat Blizzard on the shoulder and say "You tried. It's...better." Female costumes are still mostly skintight (except Farah), half the women in the trailer insist on standing in that awkward, back-hurting "boobs up, ass out" position used only by comic covers and models, and they have pretty much the same body type while the men vary from big fat mofo to little tank-like dude to gorilla (though admittedly no skinny dudes), but it still is a big step up from metal bikinis. I figure their intentions are probably good, but I also suspect they're trying to have their cake and eat it too by ensuring there's enough cheesecake for the people who will get mad if they don't have a wide selection of nice female butts to watch while playing.

 

[feycreature]

Oh, sorry, one last thing: HEELS!!!!! Seriously can we stop pretending that an action heroine with half a brain would wear spike heels? Just no. Stop it. They're hard to run in, bad for your back, and detrimental to anything that requires balance or strength in your stance. Plus on anything other than perfectly flat, hard terrain, they get caught on everything. Seriously, the normalization of these antiquated torture devices for your feet is one of my most persistent frustrations with...actually all of western culture.

 

[4Aces]

Steam Achievement Unlocked: Attain Free PR while covering up for low quality assets

Well played Blizzard, well played.

 

[PDugna]

This is the thing that always kinda makes me cringe...why are people in this thread comparing real life of this century women to high fantasy/sci-fi probably jacked up on some technology super women?

Am I as a man going to compare myself to fucking hanzo? or the Black dude in the pic? No I'm not I'm going to put myself into their bodies and enjoy my damn self.

Btw the reason companies can never try ugly women in mainstream games like with Blizzard is because people ***** and ***** that they can"t be pretty, then feminists ***** and ***** that the women are to pretty. You know what men do when they see a character ranging at all types? They look at what the character can do and fucking play it if we enjoy the mechanics we do, if we don't we don't. Done and simple .

Pick both already and accept it and just stop complaining for once, just stop. Buy the damn the games that appease you and let the fucking market work like it should.

 

[Elijah Newton]

Am I as a man going to compare myself to fucking hanzo? or the Black dude in the pic? No I'm not I'm going to put myself into their bodies and enjoy my damn self.

I apologize if false equivalancy has already been brought up in this thread. If it hasn't, David Willis did a nice summary of it in Shortpacked.

http://inanage.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/2011-12-02-sexy.png

As a character there points out, "Being a big, impossibly-muscled hulk is a male power fantasy. It has jack to do with what a female such as myself finds attractive." I believe the takeaway relevant to this conversation is that women who play games frequently have the choice of playing as a male power fantasy, or playing as the object of a male sexual fantasy.

If I was in an alternate universe where my choices as a guy were to play every videogame as a kick-ass woman or a bishonen stereotype, I'd probably wish for more options, too.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

The muscles are not minimal to other women looking at them. Of course guys muscles are huge, but it isn't like ours are nonexistent.. except on these characters. WOmen compare woment o other women, not to men's muscles. Muscle mass does not mean hero however having strong legs means you can run fast, having strong arms means you can hold that GIANT GUN steady. Ever shoot anything stronger than a glock 9? Most guns have a kick, and the more firepower they have the more kick they have. It takes some serious strength and digging in to accurately fire weapons when you are light weight. Rifles and shot guns knock me off balance and make me black and blue. Even Shooting a glock 40 takes both hands and muscles to hold steady enough to hit your target due to the kick.

There's a lot of incorrect information in there. Technique is so massively more important than strength that it's almost kind of ridiculous. If you're getting "black and blue" and being "knocked off balance" when firing longarms, then your stance is bad. If you're having trouble keeping a Glock .40S&W "on target," then your grip needs work. .40's a snappy round for everybody, though. A non-athlete female with average muscle mass has no problem handling standard service calibers in either handguns or shotguns provided she's gotten quality professional training. Most people, male or female, do not do that, and thus tend to think strength is the limiter.

The women of Overwatch look like they could handle their weapons just fine.

I'm sorry topsider, I have been shooting since I was 8 years old, and understand firearms VERY well. I Do not think you understand when you are discussing how it affects very lightweight women. I still wear a size one in juniors. I am not talking about grip but small wrists, muscle and weight that will affect how much you are kicked when shooting a glock 40, rifle or shotgun. My grip is fine, I adjust for my kick so well I can shoot high speed moving targets better than most of the much stronger males in my family. How small are your wrists? There are 6 year olds that have larger wrists than I do. I do not think you understand what I was discussing here. The women here do not have average muscle mass for even middle school girls, the point being these characters do not have muscle mass at all. LOL

Look at widowmakers arms.. see ANY muscle there? They look like the tubes from toilet paper rolls LOL

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Snip

I had competent instruction from the beginning, I was trained primarily by a lieutenant colonel and a police officer. LOL I was ONLY taught how to grip properly and I was only taught the proper stance from the beginning. That is why I am telling you that is irrelevant to what I am discussing. I was never taught how to do it wrong in the first place. You do not need to take classes when you are trained properly your entire life. I am not trying to " muscle through " my kick, do you have any idea how many times you can fire a weapon before your wrist feels like it is going to all off when your wrists are smaller than 6 year olds? You need the muscle to be able to accurately aim it in the first place.

Widow maker has significantly less muscle tone than her, and honestly it is kind of insulting to women that men do not notice these things. Women compare muscles to women, and their muscles do not look like men's muscles, maybe that is why men seem to have such a difficult time seeing them , It is blatantly apparent to me as a woman. Her shoulders are not even the same shape.
You showed me a video of a girl with much more muscle tone than widow maker, her arms do not look like toilet paper tubes, Widow makers do. It is starting to feel like " all girls arms look the same" and that is kind of messed up that you cannot see the difference. Also, Her wrists are larger than mine.

Spoiler: tori

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I had competent instruction from the beginning, I was trained primarily by a lieutenant colonel and a police officer. LOL I was ONLY taught how to grip properly and I was only taught the proper stance from the beginning. That is why I am telling you that is irrelevant to what I am discussing. I was never taught how to do it wrong in the first place. You do not need to take classes when you are trained properly your entire life. I am not trying to " muscle through " my kick, do you have any idea how many times you can fire a weapon before your wrist feels like it is going to all off when your wrists are smaller than 6 year olds? You need the muscle to be able to accurately aim it in the first place.

That strikes me as being about as accurate as "these women went through SEAL training," from earlier in the thread, but I have a feeling you're not going to prove to be someone whose mind is capable of being changed. I'll say, though, that some of the best shooting instructors (and shooters, for that matter) in the United States, guys like Todd Green, Travis Haley, Ken Hackathorn, Earnest Landgon? They attend almost as many classes as they teach. Ken Hackathorn taught Delta how to shoot. If he sees value in continuing education, I'm pretty sure he's onto something. Find me a great shooter that doesn't recommend professional training. I'll save you time, though: you won't.

Widow maker has significantly less muscle tone than her, and honestly it is kind of insulting to women that men do not notice these things. Women compare muscles to women, and their muscles do not look like men's muscles, maybe that is why men seem to have such a difficult time seeing them , It is blatantly apparent to me as a woman. Her shoulders are not even the same shape.
You showed me a video of a girl with much more muscle tone than widow maker, her arms do not look like toilet paper tubes, Widow makers do.

You must be looking at wildly different pictures of Widowmaker than the rest of us. Not that it really matters, as I've said, because with proper training, muscle mass is all but irrelevant. The idea that she needs to be particularly muscular to run a rifle is, in a way, several kinds of hilarious.

You should realize that the police department actually trained on my parents land as well.. LOL
I added a picture of Tori for you to get a closer look to my post above,notice the curvature of her arm? It is pretty obvious though especially watching her muscles while shooting as well. I am not saying she has to be a she hulk, she has to at least HAVE muscles to be a super hero. She doesn't she has tube arms instead LOL

Although I cannot see her wrists on the girl you showed, I had kindergartners showing me how their wrists were larger than mine and wrapping their hands around them when I went to speak LOL. Her hand kicks back quite a bit looking at that video, but she has them covered so it is difficult to tell.

EDIT: ALSO yes those Olympians were doing seal training Silly, not training to be actual seals, no but seal training none the less.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

You should realize that the police department actually trained on my parents land as well.. LOL

Again, great. You're an expert because guys who shot fifty pistol rounds a year to qual trained you. I get it. A .40 kicks in your hands because of delicate wrists, not because of a shitty grip. People who shoot more in a week of a pre-deployment cycle than you've shot in your entire lifetime have nothing worthwhile to tell you. Message received, pistol messiah.

I added a picture of Tori for you to get a closer look to my post above,notice the curvature of her arm? It is pretty obvious though especially watching her muscles while shooting as well. I am not saying she has to be a she hulk, she has to at least HAVE muscles to be a super hero. She doesn't she has tube arms instead LOL

Neither does Widowmaker. You've got a serious axe to grind here, and I understand that; I just don't understand the lack of evidence in your favor.

Although I cannot see her wrists on the girl you showed, I had kindergartners showing me how their wrists were larger than mine and wrapping their hands around them when I went to speak LOL. Her hand kicks back quite a bit looking at that video, but she has them covered so it is difficult to tell.

Watch the shotgun work. You don't need much mass at all to shoot properly if your stance and technique are correct. And on the move, at that.

EDIT: ALSO yes those Olympians were doing seal training Silly, not training to be actual seals, no but seal training none the less.

If by "SEAL training" you mean specially selected and modified individual exercises that are similar to what they use, sure. I didn't see any log torture or rock portage, myself, but then, I only vaguely know what I'm talking about from years of Navy life.

" who shot 50 pistol rounds a year"? Exactly who are you talking about? Those guys shot out on my parents land every weekend and sometimes weekdays. More than I have in my entire life? Please do tell me how much I have shot in my entire life since you apparently know oh wise one. What is " this serious axe to grind? " Please do tell. She has tube arms lacking muscle, and you are defending them. Then you compare her arms to other girls arms who actually have muscle and wonder what the problem is here. LOL

What is the oldest shotgun you have fired? Shooting my grandfathers shot guns taught me very well that not all shotguns can even be compared.