Blizzard "Trying Not to Oversexualize" Female Overwatch Characters

[Hugga_Bear]

You know what I find weird about all this? I mean I agree that the women are under muscled, though to be honest I think it's just a graphical limitation, women having that layer of fat means that it's much harder for them to be 'ripped' without destroying their body. Most physically fit women look less defined than physically fit men. When I say physically fit I mean all round, not the soul and body destroying "fitness" of professional athletes who practically kill themselves and excel in one field or bodybuilders who zombify themselves, demanding that their body consume itself rather than any of that useful food stuff and dehydrating themselves so they look all muscly and fun stuff...

Anyway, what I find weird. The characters comprise of 3 human males, 5 human females, 1 something (Reaper is nondescript), 2 robots and a gorilla. I get that the gorilla is male but I do think he should be left out of this gender equality discussion and both of the robots are...robots. I find it really weird that people keep referring to them as male for examples. Zenyatta is referred to in the masculine but is a robot, I'd feel more comfortable addressing as it unless I knew it had a pronoun preference.

But yeah I find it odd that there are few human males, it's nice diversity though I'd rather they left Zenyatta's gender as neutral primarily because I dislike the idea of genderless beings choosing genders, feels very backwards and like too human centric thinking.

 

[SquallTheBlade]

When high school girls have more muscle than these characters ,the High school girls are more hero than these characters.

Heroes are not defined by their powers but by their actions. A muscleless skinny girl can be a hero just as much as a male body builder.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

When high school girls have more muscle than these characters ,the High school girls are more hero than these characters.

Heroes are not defined by their powers but by their actions. A muscleless skinny girl can be a hero just as much as a male body builder.

So then you are saying they should have the male characters look like this guy to match the girls instead then?

If this is how the male heroes in this game looked then this would be comparable. Highschool and middle school girls should not be able to beat up their heroes. Girls want to have powerful characters too, and it is ridiculous that guys can have powerful characters but girls get puny characters instead. Having fit characters would be nice if they are expected to be heroes, and these girls could use some time at the gym. Hell not even the gym, they could gain more muscle doing aerobics with 2lb weights than these characters currently have.

Why do the male characters get to be fit and the females look like that? It would be one thing if the males were not fit as well, but when the males look like that, it just makes the girls look out of place.

 

[SquallTheBlade]

So then you are saying they should have the male characters look like this guy to match the girls instead then?

If they want to make a male character that looked like that then they should be allowed to do so. Even that guy can be a hero give the right circumstances.

Highschool and middle school girls should not be able to beat up their heroes.

Why not? Heck, I know some characters that I would consider heroes that I could beat up.

Girls want to have powerful characters too, and it is ridiculous that guys can have powerful characters but girls get puny characters instead. Having fit characters would be nice if they are expected to be heroes, and these girls could use some time at the gym. Hell not even the gym, they could gain more muscle doing aerobics with 2lb weights than these characters currently have.

Why do the male characters get to be fit and the females look like that? It would be one thing if the males were not fit as well, but when the males look like that, it just makes the girls look out of place.

I agree that girls should be allowed to have powerful characters too but it's another thing to demand such things from developers. They should be free to make characters they want. But that wasn't really my point. My point was that being fit has nothing to do with being a hero.

 

[ReverendBong]

So is Conan getting a full suit of armor next? That loincloth can't be effective in protecting him.

SMH

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

So then you are saying they should have the male characters look like this guy to match the girls instead then?

If they want to make a male character that looked like that then they should be allowed to do so. Even that guy can be a hero give the right circumstances.

Highschool and middle school girls should not be able to beat up their heroes.

Why not? Heck, I know some characters that I would consider heroes that I could beat up.

Girls want to have powerful characters too, and it is ridiculous that guys can have powerful characters but girls get puny characters instead. Having fit characters would be nice if they are expected to be heroes, and these girls could use some time at the gym. Hell not even the gym, they could gain more muscle doing aerobics with 2lb weights than these characters currently have.

Why do the male characters get to be fit and the females look like that? It would be one thing if the males were not fit as well, but when the males look like that, it just makes the girls look out of place.

I agree that girls should be allowed to have powerful characters too but it's another thing to demand such things from developers. They should be free to make characters they want. But that wasn't really my point. My point was that being fit has nothing to do with being a hero.

I Disagree, I Believe people should tell the developers what they want otherwise how will they know? How will we ever receive the games we want to play if we do not tell them? WE SHOULD ASK MORE FROM DEVELOPERS. I also do not think it is too much to ask they add some muscle tone to the female characters in a game they already provided that for the males. Honestly, it looks like the males in this game not only received their share they took the female share of muscles too and tacked them on. It is like " Oh we already gave all the shares of muscles in this games to the males so there are none left for you females and you just get to be puny now."
The male characters in this game are hoarding all the muscles. LOL
If the guys looked as non muscular as the females, it would be one thing.. but THEY DON'T. They have all the muscles, and the girls get none.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

You know, reading through the last couple of pages of this thread, I honestly wonder, if athletic, strong females can quite easily look attractive, why not put more of them in games when their unlikely to cost sales? Honestly a serious question.

They do.

But then people start bitching about "tube arms" on those athletic, 'strong' females, and we're right back at the OP.

Widowmaker isn't an athletic strong female. LOL "athletic strong females" DON'T HAVE TUBE ARMS. That is the point. They are curved for a reason.. the muscles there make them curve. Athletic arms=\= tube arms. No, they do not have to bulge out like a she hulk, the muscles just have to exist as they do on most women. LOL

 

[SquallTheBlade]

I Disagree, I Believe people should tell the developers what they want otherwise how will they know? How will we ever receive the games we want to play if we do not tell them? WE SHOULD ASK MORE FROM DEVELOPERS.

You know how they know? By buying/not buying their games. Buy the games that have the female characters you like and don't buy the games that have female characters you don't like. That way you show that there is demand for certain kind of games and not so much for others.

In this case, if you don't like the female characters in Overwatch, best you can do is to ignore it and focus on games that you feel like are worth it.

 

[mecegirl]

I Disagree, I Believe people should tell the developers what they want otherwise how will they know? How will we ever receive the games we want to play if we do not tell them? WE SHOULD ASK MORE FROM DEVELOPERS.

You know how they know? By buying/not buying their games. Buy the games that have the female characters you like and don't buy the games that have female characters you don't like. That way you show that there is demand for certain kind of games and not so much for others.

In this case, if you don't like the female characters in Overwatch, best you can do is to ignore it and focus on games that you feel like are worth it.

People say that as if there is a plethora of AAA titles to suit all tastes. It's no longer the 90's, we have limited options on the console market now. Indie games can be awesome but not many people want to just play indie games.

 

[Elijah Newton]

Am I as a man going to compare myself to fucking hanzo? or the Black dude in the pic? No I'm not I'm going to put myself into their bodies and enjoy my damn self.

I apologize if false equivalancy has already been brought up in this thread. If it hasn't, David Willis did a nice summary of it in Shortpacked.

http://inanage.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/2011-12-02-sexy.png

As a character there points out, "Being a big, impossibly-muscled hulk is a male power fantasy. It has jack to do with what a female such as myself finds attractive." I believe the takeaway relevant to this conversation is that women who play games frequently have the choice of playing as a male power fantasy, or playing as the object of a male sexual fantasy.

If I was in an alternate universe where my choices as a guy were to play every videogame as a kick-ass woman or a bishonen stereotype, I'd probably wish for more options, too.

PDugna responds with more caps and profanity than moderators feel is warrented, scroll up to view to view in full, but here's a summary :

Women often get turned on by buff dudes. Popular culture supports this. Offers further proof with observation that women complain about men with beer guts.

I trust he/she will jump in if I got anything wrong.

Obviously, not how I would've phrased things, but I can't disagree with that : Women do like buff dudes. Popular culture does support it. And beer guts will likely never be much of a turn on. But I also know not all women like buff dudes any more than all men like chesty dames, popular culture supports a lot of stuff widely acknowledged as crap, and beer guts are equally regrettable on either gender. ( if we were a wiser species, we'd probably drink less. )

It seems like PDugna is saying male game models are idealized because they are there for women to play, therefore it's ok for the female models to be idealized versions of what men want to play.

I don't think that's true, though. I think male game characters were designed for guys to play, and female game characters were also designed for guys to play. Women are welcome to play, provided they play with the models designed for guys to play with - and I think this is the irritant at the root of threads like these.

 

[EternallyBored]

So is Conan getting a full suit of armor next? That loincloth can't be effective in protecting him.

SMH

Uh, yes, Conan regularly wore full armor, up to and including plate mail when he was acting as king in some battle scenes, Conan in the loin cloth is just the popular perception of him, but he regularly sought out and wore armor as the situation called for it, in fact he pretty much always tried to wear at least some armor for the big battle scenes in the books.

The loin cloth Conan generally comes from the early books and the comics that featured the character depicted solely in said loin cloth. If you actually read those stories though, you realize that Conan doesn't wear the loin cloth much past the first few stories where he is a penniless vagabond just making his way in the world. Pretty much as soon as he gets some money and prestige, the first damn thing he does is go out and get some armor, said armor becoming increasingly sophisticated and ornate up until Conan becomes king and he dons the aforementioned full plate mail.

Seriously, this perception that Conan went around fighting only in a loin cloth only proves that a lot of people like to spout off about a series they know nothing about, even the movie Conan series put Arnold in armor before the big battle, because that's what conan wearing armor was for, when Conan puts on armor it meant it was time for the story to serious the fuck up and for Conan to actually take his opponents seriously, even outside of battle, the very first Conan story has him being saved from an assassination attempt because he wore his armor while sleeping.

If you wanted to make a point about some male characters fighting in impractical getups, Conan is not a good choice, as he actually was written in a way that he sought to dress intelligently as the situation called for it, Conan generally was not depicted as charging out onto the battlefield in a loin cloth, and once again, even wore full on plate mail once he became a king.

It's like people just looked at the book covers and decided they knew what Conan was all about.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I Disagree, I Believe people should tell the developers what they want otherwise how will they know? How will we ever receive the games we want to play if we do not tell them? WE SHOULD ASK MORE FROM DEVELOPERS.

You know how they know? By buying/not buying their games. Buy the games that have the female characters you like and don't buy the games that have female characters you don't like. That way you show that there is demand for certain kind of games and not so much for others.

In this case, if you don't like the female characters in Overwatch, best you can do is to ignore it and focus on games that you feel like are worth it.

No, I don't buy games because of how their characters look, I buy games for how their pvp and game mechanics work and overlook their graphics as Gamplay > graphics. I instead tell developers what I would like to see in my games and hope one day one of them " get's it". As far as game selection goes it is a matter of choosing between crappy and crappier options, and Even though I scour indie sandbox games in hopes of finding something good, I am usually sadly disappointed. Content really has been on decline since they started focusing on graphix over gameplay and putting out clones of games that were once good rather than putting forth the effort to create something better. When I come across a gem, I always give due praise where praise is due as well.

Most pvp options are extremely predictable and limited on our games available, and if we do not speak up about these things we will never receive better games. I have alpha and beta tested quite a number of games, some never made it to market that I wish would have however, more often than not ones that are not so great make it farther than ones that actually innovate because everyone is afraid to do anything outside the tried and true these days and I hope to see that change soon. They have been too busy making clones of other games when if we wanted to play the game they cloned, we would play that game instead anyhow so what is the point in making that one? I do not think gamers will ever get what they want in games if they don't speak up. I wish more would speak up rather than less and maybe we would have games that keep your attention more than 5 minutes.

You know how they know? SURVEYS, what players tell them, the feedback they receive from gamers, now whether or not they listen to that is an entirely different story, but we have ways to tell them and we should utilize them.

 

[SquallTheBlade]

I Disagree, I Believe people should tell the developers what they want otherwise how will they know? How will we ever receive the games we want to play if we do not tell them? WE SHOULD ASK MORE FROM DEVELOPERS.

You know how they know? By buying/not buying their games. Buy the games that have the female characters you like and don't buy the games that have female characters you don't like. That way you show that there is demand for certain kind of games and not so much for others.

In this case, if you don't like the female characters in Overwatch, best you can do is to ignore it and focus on games that you feel like are worth it.

No, I don't guy games because of how their characters look, I buy games for how their pvp and game mechanics work and overlook their graphics as Gamplay > graphics.

But see, these companies are here to make money. They might hear that you are not liking some of the character designs but they aren't bothering you enough to NOT buy the game. Why change something that still sells?

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I Disagree, I Believe people should tell the developers what they want otherwise how will they know? How will we ever receive the games we want to play if we do not tell them? WE SHOULD ASK MORE FROM DEVELOPERS.

You know how they know? By buying/not buying their games. Buy the games that have the female characters you like and don't buy the games that have female characters you don't like. That way you show that there is demand for certain kind of games and not so much for others.

In this case, if you don't like the female characters in Overwatch, best you can do is to ignore it and focus on games that you feel like are worth it.

No, I don't guy games because of how their characters look, I buy games for how their pvp and game mechanics work and overlook their graphics as Gamplay > graphics.

But see, these companies are here to make money. They might hear that you are not liking some of the character designs but they aren't bothering you enough to NOT buy the game. Why change something that still sells?

Failing to improve the product means you get left behind when something better comes out. You improve your products so you sell more and create return customers by considering their requests and working that into your products to improve them. It is called " consumer feedback" That is why they should pay close attention to the player reviews, and other discussions about their games.

 

[Ethranoch]

I read a lot of this thread and I feel like inserting my own thoughts... because why not?

I never understood the big deal behind some sexualization. You can label me whatever you want but it's really not near as big a deal as most make it out to be. If you can't appreciate some good curves then you should go play games with family-friendly ratings. The problem with the industry these days is two fold. First off, the devs should be more concerned with making games that THEY find fun. If you don't find it fun, then kindly screw off. The reason Pixar is as celebrated as they are today is because their creative process involves entertaining themselves. Not others. If any of you knew anything about art you would know that you must have faith that what you find entertaining will entertain others. The second problem is the idea that if something is not agreeable, it should be removed.

As they said, Blizzard isn't here to be an example or to appeal to those who seek to control art. They are here to make games, and if what they're doing is truly all that horrible then they would have been squashed by the trends of economics. It is pathetic to insist that something you don't agree with is eliminated for everyone.

If you people are so slighted by the curves of Widowmaker, then make your statement by not playing the game and kindly leaving the rest of us. Most mature people who aren't pushing some horsecrap agenda don't have a problem with sexualization. It is a perfectly natural part of our world that lights a spark in what makes us human. If you had your way all women would be in hijabs or be completely indistinguishable from men. You would have your way and the women who are actually proud of themselves and like to dress in a way that makes them feel sexy are cheated.

Nothing is wrong with Widowmaker, just as nothing is wrong with Hanzo. The only difference is that there's some giant spotlight on women in games because of a few very vocal individuals and their followers who see an opportunity. Sexuality has been so demonized the past few years that it's making me sick.

If you don't like it, kindly piss off and play games that you are actually the intended demographic for. Let the market speak for itself.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I read a lot of this thread and I feel like inserting my own thoughts... because why not?

I never understood the big deal behind some sexualization. You can label me whatever you want but it's really not near as big a deal as most make it out to be. If you can't appreciate some good curves then you should go play games with family-friendly ratings. The problem with the industry these days is two fold. First off, the devs should be more concerned with making games that THEY find fun. If you don't find it fun, then kindly screw off. The reason Pixar is as celebrated as they are today is because their creative process involves entertaining themselves. Not others. If any of you knew anything about art you would know that you must have faith that what you find entertaining will entertain others. The second problem is the idea that if something is not agreeable, it should be removed.

As they said, Blizzard isn't here to be an example or to appeal to those who seek to control art. They are here to make games, and if what they're doing is truly all that horrible then they would have been squashed by the trends of economics. It is pathetic to insist that something you don't agree with is eliminated for everyone.

If you people are so slighted by the curves of Widowmaker, then make your statement by not playing the game and kindly leaving the rest of us. Most mature people who aren't pushing some horsecrap agenda don't have a problem with sexualization. It is a perfectly natural part of our world that lights a spark in what makes us human. If you had your way all women would be in hijabs or be completely indistinguishable from men. You would have your way and the women who are actually proud of themselves and like to dress in a way that makes them feel sexy are cheated.

Nothing is wrong with Widowmaker, just as nothing is wrong with Hanzo. The only difference is that there's some giant spotlight on women in games because of a few very vocal individuals and their followers who see an opportunity. Sexuality has been so demonized the past few years that it's making me sick.

If you don't like it, kindly piss off and play games that you are actually the intended demographic for. Let the market speak for itself.

As an Artist, I LOVE feedback on my work, what I can improve and how it is viewed. I love to hear what people have to say about it, good and bad. The idea that artists do not want to hear what people think about it and how we can improve is false. We live for that. That is why we are always listening, watching what people have to say about it. If we didn't want to hear what people thought we would just hide it, we don't have to show people our work if we don't want to hear their opinions. LOL

Sex is a wonderful and beautiful part of life that should be celebrated, Women are beautiful sexual beings, and it is great that they are. The male heroes are strong powerful and athletic, the female are not.The biggest problem with widow maker is she does not look like a female super hero, She is LACKING curves where real strong, attractive, athletic women would have them. Female heroes should at least be equal to the male heroes in the same game. If the male heroes are strong the females should have a female version of the same type of characters. The characters do not even look as strong as real female high school students do in reality. Real female heroes are beautiful, sexy and strong as well and they are not representing the characters of both sexes equally here.

 

[Ethranoch]

The idea that artists do not want to hear what people think about it and how we can improve is false.

You completely missed my point on this matter. I did not say that artists should completely ignore feedback, I suggested that artists should not be slaves to feedback, which I have a hard time thinking any artist would disagree with.

The biggest problem with widow maker is she does not look like a female super hero, She is LACKING curves where real strong, attractive, athletic women would have them.

There are several problems with this kind of thinking.
1. You automatically assume she is human. She could be some sort of alien where bone and muscle mass is different. She doesn't look human to me so as someone who can comprehend that this is a fictional reality, I am willing to accept that appearance does not always carry the same function between different races. While I understand this may seem like me bending over backwards, it should at least reinforce that 'some' people understand what 'fiction' is.

2. You can tell she has strong legs. Consider that the rifle she carries is a space-age super light alloy which would result in not-so muscular arms.

Female heroes should at least be equal to the male heroes in the same game.

3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism Deal with it. I'm not saying that we should never have a monster-female character like a big ugly goblin, but the truth of the matter is no significant part of the market even wants that, and to put it in just to make a statement is the same kind of bullcrap "slaves to feedback" that is counter productive to an artist's passion. I am confident to predict that men and women artists alike would have more fun designing Widowmaker than a female version of Styx, just as male and female players would enjoy playing her more.

The characters do not even look as strong as real female high school students do in reality.

4. What high school did you go to?

Real female heroes are beautiful, sexy and strong as well and they are not representing the characters of both sexes equally here.

5a. I'm going to assume you mean "female heroes" as in fictional female heroes, in which case I laugh at your inclusion of the word "real" (You do understand this is fiction, right?). If you mean actual real-world heroes, no. They're not defined by how sexy they are, they are defined by what they've done.

5b. The judgement I detect with this that they are being judged by appearance, not character (which influences appearance). There are too many representations of men and women alike to be covered in a single game. I can see anyone enjoying the designs of at least one character based on personality. What makes you think you can speak for anyone other than yourself? Pick a favorite character that feels represents you, and naturally most of the rest won't represent you. The big issue is that people may find something they identify with and then choose to be insulted by having those that don't. It's like the weird guy/girl being ostracized by the "normal" people at school. Are you suggesting that every character that doesn't agrees with you shouldn't be in the game? How is it representing different people if you agree with all of them? That's fundamentally contradicting.

6. They are dressed different. The only ones sexualized are Mercy (female healer) and Widowmaker (femme fatale). Tracer looks normal (or are you saying that women who wear fitting pants are sexualized), Symmetra has a ROBOTIC ARM, and Pharah has beefy armor without emphasizing breasts (and if you bring up that she has a slight bulge up there, YES, she has boobs. That's how it works!). For general silhouettes, again refer to the education of sexual dimorphism. Even in the cases of Mercy and Widowmaker, to criticize based solely on appearance is judgmental. There are women who enjoy employing their bodies for the power they have over men, and there are women who enjoy supportive roles. I've personally met both types, so I know they exist whether you acknowledge them or not.


The point is you can't please everyone, and no one character is going to appeal to everybody. While you can have an ugly, female goblin, do you really want it? The irony is that many more would boo-boo poo-poo that character as a tasteless insult to women with little self-esteem. No content creator can win, there is only what is popular and not popular, and if gaming becomes sterilized for the sake of pleasing an angry mob, they will be less fun and more insulting to those who are mature enough to distinguish fantasy from reality.

It is a game. It is fiction. If you don't like it, don't play it. Stop looking at things you don't like and rejecting them 'just because'. You can only speak for yourself.

 

[Ethranoch]

And just to emphasize, the reason artists should be out to please themselves before fans is because you will never please everyone, but you can always please yourself. That's where the good art comes from.