Blizzard "Trying Not to Oversexualize" Female Overwatch Characters

[Dogstile]

Wow. Whoever fed you that one is completely irrational and should seek fear counseling.

I've seen it.

I'll top that, I've experienced it. I know I'm not the only one on this forum who has, either.

How do you go outside? A person saying hello is as much a "possible threat" as going outside and getting hit by a shitty driver swerving onto the pavement. You should probably try and find a professional to talk that over with, because that's not a normal train of thought.

Oh noes, there censoring er gayms!

OT: There's a difference between de-sexualising and refusing to oversexualise, and from what I've seen this game is walking that line majestically. Men and women can be sexy, there's no crime in that, it's just making sure that's not all women are there for.

Well that's just it. All the female characters look physically fit, like they've spent time working out. All the male characters also look like they've worked out as well. Especially Hanzo, who is going to get so much fanfiction drawn of him.

People seem to be expecting Blizz to provide characters of every body type. This is hilarious, fat mall cop on the battlefield not only provides a huge hitbox, its also out of place.

 

[DementedSheep]

There are a lot between hideous hulk and hypersexualized T&A. And it's guaranteed that tumblrinas and professional feminists will attack each and every thing between the two up to hideous hulk, so why not just get there?

"I'm going to completely ignore the middle ground and reduce your argument to caricature because it's easier and I'm sure someone somewhere will complain!"
There are many female characters in games that don't get complaints.

Guys generally don't do that in clubs in real life, either, which may be where part of the difference lies.

Say that to to all the dudes taking picture of themselves shirtless with their hands on their crotch and sending it to women. Women tend not to go around in catsuits in real life either and they don't pose like that since spines don't actually bend that way.

Guys generally do want to be physically attractive to women, at least if they're of a heterosexual nature. Since a lot of women enjoy well-built guys with aggressive personalities and even aggressive jobs - I can tell you from experience, there are certain jobs in the military that have no problem getting laid - these fantasy personas tend to play pretty well with men.

If there also decently attractive physically, which many of the male characters aren't and again the physical sexual appeal is nowhere near the focus point. A guy having these traits doesn't automatically make then equal to hypersexaulized women. Some might find them attractive but they aren't particularly sexualized. That some men like Jade from BG&E doesn't make her a sexualized character. It not that can't sexualised a guy because you can.


This is also part of the goddamn issue. Women and men aren't valued the same. Because guys are valued on being able to do shit and being strong and women tend to find that attractive you get crossover to power fantasy easily. But the same isn't true of women. Large tits, high heels, skipmpy clothing and breakbreaking poses are just sex appeal and make them look less competent. Since I don't find being a good fuck toy a particularly great or respectable trait they don't make me want to play that character.

Just as the fantasy persona of the beautiful, sexy, deadly dame play pretty well with a lot of women.

Some women some of the time and there is sexy and then there is heavy sexulized. I would much rather my female characters actually look like they kick some ass and can take or leave the sexy depending on how it's done. Again a Gorilla is not physically attractive, a robot is not physically attractive and with the mech suit you can't even see the guy. Maybe, just maybe some of us girl might want play female characters like that for the same reasons?

I'd argue it's an irrelevant thing, in the context of this conversation.

The point being that just because some women do like it doesn't make it a good thing.

I was wondering when "it's all the patriarchy's fault!" was going to make an appearance.

Did I say patriarchy? People are influenced by cultural exception, this a no-brainier. I blame women for half this shit but that doesn't change a thing.

It really isn't though. Not when you think about what LazyAza is actually saying, rather than becoming difficult about it. There is a wider spectrum of clothing designs between Skin Tight and Power Armour. It's not a binary choice. A or not A, where A is skin tight and not A is... Power Armour and Power Armour alone.

Like 90? 99%? of women's clothes that you see everyday corresponds to this middle area in the spectrum, that middle spectrum that is supposedly 'needlessly hard to please.' The vast majority of women's clothing is definitely feminine, and yet definitely is not A) skin tight or B) Power Armour. It's really not that difficult.

Having said that, I have nothing against Pharah's Power Armour, although I prefer Trace's design better.

Hey, I'm all for kitting out women for combat realistically in video games. You wouldn't have to change anything about the male models except the faces, make 'em a little shorter, and maybe have everything altered to an indefinably ill-fitting appearance.

Something tells me that's not going to satisfy the people upset or sell much in the way of cosmetic DLC, though.

Actually yes if it's a modern military shooter that is how I would want female characters.

 

[Kargathia]

Not alienate well let's put it this way.. which is fairer.. thoseoversexualized characters that appeal half their base and modesty mods for those that don't ... or non sexualized figures that appeal to the otgher half and jiggle mods for the other half?


See this is why the discussion on such things goes nowhere.. it is pretty much a binary question.. who do you please the side you don't pick is always going to resent you foir making them do more workregardless of which side it is. Plus we've kinda seen the blizzacti isn't a big fan of their games being modded by third parties I mean look at D3?

Otherwise.. I am okay with mods and such seriously I am... but

Things are hardly as binary as you make them appear - there is no magic tipping point where a part of the audience decides it's too (un)sexualised for them, and they'll give it a pass.

There are quite a few ways to have sexy characters without resorting to chain-mail bikinis, ass gaps, and double-F jiggle physics.

 

[Erttheking]

The people who would complain about it won't be happy, they'll just complain about something else.

Like the ones who complained Elle from Last Of Us wasn't "Strong and independent enough".

I miss when games decisions weren't made saying "What will ____ think of this?". It's the same wave of politically correct nonsense that ruined a lot of things during the 90's until people just got sick of it in the latter half of the decade.

You mean that one time that everyone on this website jumped on them and told them they were talking out of their ass? Including the hardcore "SJWs" on this website? I think you might be blowing things out of proportion a bit, unless you're saying you're not gonna be happy until no one no where ever complains about the portrayal of female characters, in which case you're gonna be in for a very unhappy life, because there is always gonna be someone somewhere that will complain about everything.

Jesus could descend from the heavens tomorrow, erase all the evils from the world and bring about world peace, ensure everyone a position in heaven regardless of their religion or misdeeds and there would still be someone who would complain about it

 

[lionsprey]

i was buying it until i saw widowmaker. i mean come on does the woman not know how to work a zip?

 

[NoX 9]

Nobody really seems to agree what would be right and wrong for female character design... Personally, I don't really know. What I do know is that when I play my games I like to enjoy what my character looks and plays like. I actually think Bayonetta is a pretty cool looking character, though I've never played the games. She is sexy and confident, but it doesn't feel out of place.

As an example of what DOES annoy me; when I played WoW many years ago with my friend and we moved to a new area, he got himself a sweet looking new armor. It wasn't too big and bulky, had sweet red highlights and made his character look like an utter badass.

Spoiler: I got this...

I just want to look cool, ok?! I don't mind that my character has slender hips and full breasts, I wouldn't mind being slender and sexy in real life! But when I get some tall boots and a red/pinkish bikini with a fucking HEART on it... Fuck, I was just so disapointed... I enjoyed the clothing I had gotten until this point, they had mostly been cool. Surely people MUST be able to understand why I dislike this? I didn't even feel like playing the game after getting that thing... It's silly I know -I could just have gotten something else and sold this thing-, but it just left such a bad taste in my mouth. I didn't feel like going back there anymore.

 

[garjian]

I've seen enough reports of "See in this gameplay footage how this woman is brutally shot to death, and the player receives a point" to know there are people offended by the simple inclusion of females in any form.

Context, because who needs it, amirite? So much easier to not try to understand and intentionally misrepresent somebody's point.

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? Disregard for context is exactly what I was complaining about.

 

[Batou667]

The problem is not them being too awesome. The problem is the "ideal women" is based around how pretty a place to put a cock they are. Most ways women get sexulized make them look more less competent. If you did the same shit to a guy (not just the clothes either, make them thin and have them poise that way aswell) they would get laughed at. They don't look strong, they don't look capable, scantly clad and doll faced is boring as hell and dragons crown level sexualization is outright repulsive to me. They end up looking like they should fuck off before they get someone worth a damn killed. So the problem is not that I will never be them, the problem is that would never want to be them.

Not to single you out, but your post encapsulates the usual kind of complaint about male and female character designs. I personally think the standard claim that "Both males and females are portrayed unrealistically, but females are sexualised, the buff men showing flesh are power fantasies so there's no parity!" comes from an idealised post-gender reference point without acknowledging current cultural norms.

I think it's more accurate to say that male and female protagonists in games are depicted not so much as "capable" for men[footnote]Many male protagonists run around with minimal armour and completely under-equipped for the situation they're in, getting killed hundreds of times during a typical campaign playthrough[/footnote] or "desirable" for women, as they're designed to embody a male or feminine prestigious ideal. The idea is that certain male traits carry social prestige - capability, strength, large stature, command of technology, whatever - and these traits don't map directly onto female characters. Female protagonists have a different, "female" set of cool points - and these are generally limited to sex appeal, an aesthetic body type, and an appealing outfit. Condescending and horribly limiting? Possibly, but these limitations weren't invented by videogames - they're cues taken from the wider society we live in. And, anybody tempted to dispute the idea that sex, physique and fashion are key parts of female aspirational culture, please pick up a copy of Cosmopolitan.

If people want to try challenging this, fine. There are many valid reasons to do so. My issue is that in making demands of the game industry we're addressing the symptom rather than the cause. Companies such as Blizzard might be pressured to the point where they become aware of the issue or make lip-service attempts to provide more options, but ultimately they're always going to chase profit - and that means catering to the tastes of the majority.

What about Blizzard general representation of male characters, those square-jawed, muscle-bound figured sculpted in the image of gods as an example of a proper physique? From Death to Chris Redfield and the always mentioned He-Man; guys whose bodies stand beyond any realistic expectation are pretty much all over, but no-one ever pays much attention to them. Characters whose bodies were obviously made for girls to enjoy and for guys to aspire to, kind of like the tight-fit and body-showing bikini suits of female characters tends to be the other way around--guys enjoy them, girls aspire to them.

Yeah, I've always found it a bit weird when people claim that muscular male protagonists are only male power fantasies and not sexualised because "no women like men who look like that!". Firstly, try not telling women what their tastes are, hmm? Secondly, why assume the two are mutually exclusive? Seems to me to be pretty obvious that a (heterosexual) man would aspire to an image that women find attractive.

For evidence, let's look at the kind of man who appears on the cover of women's erotic novels:

Spoiler: Possibly NSFW

Or, what about the kind of men who women actually pay good money to see strip?

Spoiler: Ditto

So, where does this silly idea come from, that says women don't find muscular, athletic, testosterone-dripping and assertive men, sexually appealing? Likewise, how did we arrive at the denial that women find playing as attractive, sexy characters empowering (easily disproved by looking at the female-designed characters of Skullgirls)? My guess is that they share a source: the left-wing, progressive and somewhat sex-negative spaces online like Tumblr, where a vocal minority have been making a lot of noise and claim to speak for the majority.

 

[Kargathia]

[spoiler = snip snap]

Not alienate well let's put it this way.. which is fairer.. thoseoversexualized characters that appeal half their base and modesty mods for those that don't ... or non sexualized figures that appeal to the otgher half and jiggle mods for the other half?


See this is why the discussion on such things goes nowhere.. it is pretty much a binary question.. who do you please the side you don't pick is always going to resent you foir making them do more workregardless of which side it is. Plus we've kinda seen the blizzacti isn't a big fan of their games being modded by third parties I mean look at D3?

Otherwise.. I am okay with mods and such seriously I am... but

Things are hardly as binary as you make them appear - there is no magic tipping point where a part of the audience decides it's too (un)sexualised for them, and they'll give it a pass.

There are quite a few ways to have sexy characters without resorting to chain-mail bikinis, ass gaps, and double-F jiggle physics.

*sigh*

You often hear of 'Missing the forest for the trees' but no matter how many times I see it action it amazes me that I can't tell if it's deliberate or accidental. Here is a perfect example... focusing on the specifics of my example rather than trying to grasp the larger message. Well...you can lead them to water but you can't make them drink as the saying goes.

I will say this. Y'all need to stop being so easily impressed. As I said, blizzard has done nothing but pick the right set of adjectives to describe something they'd done. Oversexualize is a nebulous term, it means something different for everyone. It's like someone saying they didn't make the food too spicy. Sure...what it means is 'I did the exact same thing I always do with the seasoning I just made it sound like I did more'.

Never mind that many other game devs have been doing the exact same thing but didn't feel the need to make it a Press Release over it. Heck even Mass Effect did it. None of the women are over endowed their armor pretty much covers them completely and is functional. And that's Mass Effect.

So again...you're oohing and ahhhing over blizzard making a big show of doing something that many devs and publishers have been doing over the last decade or more. You're doing the equivalent of clapping a 10 year old who just went potty all by himself .[/spoiler]

Heh, for all your dramatics you might've missed the part where I'm giving Blizzard a standing ovation.

It's not often I have to quote myself, but I felt that here it might be appropriate.

Yea.... don't get me wrong, I loved the general aesthetic of their trailers so far, but if this is "less sexualised", they really have a loooooooong way ahead of them.

(I'm really not sure why BB code decided to go haywire)

Beyond that this particular discussion has only involved me arguing that there definitely exists a sweet spot of less-than-hyper-sexualised characters, probably a bit south of what all too often is the norm. If people want to go ahead and mod their jiggle physics and combat panties, good on them.

In the end it all comes down to whether target demographics have truly shifted as much as I suspect, with adolescent males being far from ubiquitous as they once were.

 

[Tsukuyomi]

Metzen, you got points in my book again. After what happened with WoW, you got points in my book. It's been awhile, man, welcome back.

As far as Widowmaker goes...eh. Yeah, I guess she's sexualized, but speaking for myself, I didn't really notice. Furthermore there wasn't any points where I felt like they were shoving her in the scene trying to MAKE me notice. In the gameplay trailer, I noticed everyone, and they did a good job of selling every character mostly equally.

and yes, they're TRYING. Is that really such a bad thing? It's not perfect, as there's still fantasies, both male and female fantasies, that can be and are played to. But it's a step in the right direction while still having some fun. Widowmaker is one character out of the many we've seen so far. I'm all for gender equality, but part of gaming is fufilling fantasies and having experiences we'd normally never have.

Yes there's some skin-tight pants and some body-suits. Okay, not GOOD, but not overly awful either. There's also Pharah and Mercy, and I'll throw in Tracer because despite the spandex pants, she's pretty well covered and the design doesn't say "we want her to be sexy" to me. In fact the ONLY design that says that to me is Widowmaker's. Everyone else is simply...there.

Furthermore, if we're gonna talk sexist, since some folks like to bring up the old 'damsel in distress' role that was so prevalent in gaming, let's talk about what the ladies in Overwatch DO. Not just their designs, but what they DO in game.

Tracer: hyper, giggling, bat-outta-hell that drops enemies because they blinked at the wrong moment. Multiple times she's seen holding her own and getting kills.

Symmetra: An Engineer-esque class, but she's still on the front line and appears to be able to not just bring utility in teleporters but, from the gameplay trailers, may be able to set up many turrets, meaning that she wins not just on raw firepower (use more gun), or the curves of her body, but on her intelligence and tactical insight. She sets up, you die when you step in the room. Not her fault she has the superior position.

Pharah:....woman in power-armor flying and (at one point) basically unleashing a barrage of micro-rockets to mop up multiple people. The armor doesn't even look particularly sexy. She appears at multiple points in the gameplay trailer and is almost ALWAYS contributing actively and filling body-bags.

Mercy: Like Symmetra, there's a class-limitation here, but she still gets the job done. Male or female, one doesn't expect the Medic to do too much badassery, but she dropped a few people I believe, and she has an IN-BATTLE RESURRECTION ABILITY. Oh, you wanna kill her team? Mercy says no. ****. You. Take your ass home.

Widowmaker: Yes, yes, outfit, booty glitch, we know. Again, they're trying. No one is perfect. But let's be honest: she fills body-bags. She's not dancing on a pole, she's not shoving her butt or her boobs into the camera, she's taking lives. Even in the cinematic trailer she's the smart one in addition to holding her own; deciding that it's time to be gone when things go against herself and Reaper.

----------------------------------

I appreciate the concerns but I feel like sometimes, not all the time but sometimes, we're snapping at shadows with this sexism thing. We're so on the watch for even the tiniest HINT of something that MIGHT be sexist, that sometimes it feels a bit ridiculous and it feels like we're not giving the developers any kind of credit or any room to show us that they've improved.

I'm all for equality in gaming, honestly I am. It just feels like, despite the best of intentions, we go overboard sometimes with this stuff. Let's look at the bigger picture beyond what the characters look like. Let's give the developers time to improve and work WITH them instead of flogging them with scorn over every little thing. Let's allow for the fact that gaming is a fantasy and maybe part of a female fantasy is being able to say "yes, I DID just get top kills for this match AND I've got THIS good of a body!" Let's also concede that everyone has needs. Perverted people are going to be perverted people. Rule 34 exists for a reason. Closing them off and saying "NO! YOU CAN'T HAVE THAT!" only creates resentment.

Work with them, have some patience. Metzen is right: from where I sit, they ARE trying. It's not perfect, they have a ways to go, but they ARE trying.

 

[Loop Stricken]

As an example of what DOES annoy me; when I played WoW many years ago with my friend and we moved to a new area, he got himself a sweet looking new armor. It wasn't too big and bulky, had sweet red highlights and made his character look like an utter badass.

Spoiler: I got this...

If it helps, there's pretty much no examples of that post-Burning Crusade. At most, some of the chest armours show a bit of midriff. Yes it's a bit silly, but it's pretty sparse too.

I mean, this is how my paladin looks nowadays:

Spoiler

 

[rbstewart7263]

Wish they'd just take out female characters at this point, all these stupid articles are not worth it. Linking to Kotaku also, surely the escapist has better standards?

Because art is something you have to work and suffer for and if you can't handle any criticism you probably should've picked a different career? Honestly, just because you don't care about these issues, doesn't mean other people don't. And if your biggest problem with this is that you're tired of reading all the articles about it, then frankly I think we're in a good place

OT: Overwatch is certainly a step in the right direction, I love the design for Tracer espically, but it's an example of "Evolution not Revolution". We've still got Widowmaker showing her boobs off, we've still got boob plates, we've still got all the female characters being attractive and obviously human, still limited body types (With the possible exception of Pahrah) all of the women being fairly small where as the guys can range from being small to huge, to being a gorilla or a robot.

Still I don't want to underplay the steps Blizzard is taking here and I am looking forward to this game. We've just got a long way to go.

This is true. I think that the sexy women should stay and that blizzzard should just add in some of what you suggested to increase the range of female characters like how you mentioned. This way they will be at parity with the male characters.Actually the males need more sexy characters to truly be at parity but one character/ model at a time.

That sound like a perfectly reasoned middle ground for everyone where No side is completely left to the curb?

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Not really seeing what I would like as far as female options. Skin tight clothes are worse than showing more skin as far as my preference. Lack of female body types is what I primarily see here, and I think shorts and skirts are great too and would like to not have a character that is covered from head to toe. Showing skin =/= objectification, however having the same body types IS bad, and has more of an effect on young girls body image than showing them in skirts and shorts that girls actually wear.

To me, hiding female skin is worse than skin tight suits in uncommon female body types, these body types do not even look like athletic girls.. Some girls are busty, some girls are athletic, some girls are petite, and I am not seeing the variety that we see just by lining up a few random girls anywhere you go, and I would like to see more of that variety in games.

 

[Something Amyss]

I hope they never find that sweet spot..see trying to take the median approach only leads us to a new brand of 'safe' and 'generic' games.

Aaaand...what? We're not done with the current brand of "safe" and "generic" games?

Seems a lateral move at worst.

 

[Kargathia]

[spoiler = snip snap]

Not alienate well let's put it this way.. which is fairer.. thoseoversexualized characters that appeal half their base and modesty mods for those that don't ... or non sexualized figures that appeal to the otgher half and jiggle mods for the other half?


See this is why the discussion on such things goes nowhere.. it is pretty much a binary question.. who do you please the side you don't pick is always going to resent you foir making them do more workregardless of which side it is. Plus we've kinda seen the blizzacti isn't a big fan of their games being modded by third parties I mean look at D3?

Otherwise.. I am okay with mods and such seriously I am... but

Things are hardly as binary as you make them appear - there is no magic tipping point where a part of the audience decides it's too (un)sexualised for them, and they'll give it a pass.

There are quite a few ways to have sexy characters without resorting to chain-mail bikinis, ass gaps, and double-F jiggle physics.

Yea.... don't get me wrong, I loved the general aesthetic of their trailers so far, but if this is "less sexualised", they really have a loooooooong way ahead of them.

(I'm really not sure why BB code decided to go haywire)

Beyond that this particular discussion has only involved me arguing that there definitely exists a sweet spot of less-than-hyper-sexualised characters, probably a bit south of what all too often is the norm. If people want to go ahead and mod their jiggle physics and combat panties, good on them.

In the end it all comes down to whether target demographics have truly shifted as much as I suspect, with adolescent males being far from ubiquitous as they once were.

I hope they never find that sweet spot..see trying to take the median approach only leads us to a new brand of 'safe' and 'generic' games. Trying to find something that pleases everyone is basically how you wind up with a product that doesn't quite please anyone. Basically it'd be the equivalent of a McDonald's burger. It's safe.. inoffensive and serviceable.. but at the same time not particularly memorable.

Say what you want about hyper sexualized characters but the funny thing is.. people 'remember' those characters more than the more safe characters. DOA Beach Volleyball may have been terrible but hey.. years later it's still being mentioned and talked about. As opposed to Phantasy Star, Mirror's Edge Ico, etc...

Have demographics really changed... probably not.. see the behaviour of demographics is something that must be observed.. there are questions that you will just never get an honest answer to... not so much because people are liars but because of S.A.B or R.A.B. People will say one thing but then their actions say an entirely different thing. People may say that they're against overly sexy characters buuut the historic and even current sales figures paint a different story.

Honestly my biggest beef is with the fact that blizzard is milking the fact that they did nothing by simply making it sound like they did. Where as a game like Loadout did it far more effectively and genuinely with very little fan fare about it. Empowered bad ass female protagonist.. Sanctum did that years ago without much fanfare. People will give praise to those who in fact did nothing and overlook the efforts over those that actually do something just based on what the person says about what they did.

You do have a point in that diversity definitely is a good thing.

As to whether sexualised characters are better remembered... I'm pretty sure none of your examples their "legacy" has anything to do with sexualisation.
DoA most definitely did not wait till Beach Volleyball to bring out the melons.
Phantasy Star I honestly didn't even know up to now, but that's hardly the same as being forgotten.
Mirror's Edge is memorable more due to its gameplay and aesthetics than due to its protagonist, who was designed well, and inoffensively.
Both Mirror's Edge, and Ico are very much remembered still - not always because they were flawless games (looking at you there, Mirror's Edge), but because they were unique in all multiple aspects, not just character design.

Sales figures haven't painted anything at all resembling a trend for sex selling across all genres.

Whereas you're mostly correct in that many other games already did this whole thing well without much of a fuss, it would indeed mean a change in direction for Blizzard, which is something people are apparently happy about.

Food for thought: if Blizzard gets to pat itself on the chest for doing something others did without much of a fuss, is that Blizzard's fault, or did other companies simply miss an opportunity for advertising themselves?