Blizzard Unveils Diablo III "Paragon System"

[Vegosiux]

Interesting. I suppose this move is likely to make the distinction between people who bought "Diablo 3" and people who bought "this new cool thing" a bit more apparent.

Having not followed the D3 development much from the moment I heard of the always-online thing, tho, can't say much. If the main complaints are "useless grind", putting more grinding in isn't a sound business decision. Oh sure, it's a sound decision to reaffirm the essence of a Diablo game, yeah, but it loses you the "appeal to a wider audience". Now, up to you if you want to have that or not of course. Overdoing it is a bad thing indeed.

 

[Vhite]

So they want to fix the reasons everyone left (i.e. terrible, costly grind) with more grind?
I...what?

No. They left because they grinded and shit dropped. Paragon levels increase magic find making people less dependent on auction house.

 

[GamemasterAnthony]

All I can think of for some dumb reason is...

What if players want to put points into Renegade?

(I apologize in advance for the dumb reference.)

 

[Signa]

For just one moment, I thought actually Blizzard came up with a way to alleviate the problems caused by the idiotic level 60 cap. Turns out they just made two more stats ultimately pointless.

I dunno man, I love every anti-blizz/D3 comment you've made, but this sounds like a step in the right direction to me. Does it fix the game enough for me to want to play it? HELL NO! But does it address (just) one of my many complaints about the game? Yes.

RPGs are fun in part because of their progression. The progression in D3 is laughable, and this addresses some of the reasons why it's so bad.

 

[Aeshi]

Also included with this update was a metric boatload of patches, but that doesn't make for exciting news I guess.

 

[StriderShinryu]

Chrono Trigger is a JRPG from the SNES era that, to my knowledge, is the first major title to have a New Game Plus mode. The difference, as you've stated, is that CT isn't a loot fest ARPG. CT is, at it's core, a JRPG that has 12ish endings, some of which require you to have finished the game at least once to access. Thus, yeah, there really is no real comparison between NG+ in CT and what is basically NG+ in D3. NG+ in CT lets you play through the same game in different ways, actually coming to sometimes radically different endings. NG+ in D3 means you play the whole game over again with exactly the same experience just hoping you get good enough loot drops to keep you moving forward.

Now now, let's be REALLY honest.

CT's multiple endings were not at all from divergent paths, but simply due to when in the narrative you decided to defeat the end boss. That's all. Otherwise, the second playthrough's story is EXACTLY the same, and all the combat is simply a formality because difficulty doesn't change to suit NG+.

D3, on the other hand, actually DOES ratchet up the difficulty, so that the actual process of killing does change. On top of this, your character, unlike CT, will actually acquire new abilities, thus keeping the gameplay varied over time.

Fundamentally, Chrono Trigger's NG+ gimmick is that you get to start powerful enough to take Lavos on and see what-if endings but the gameplay itself is simply an unnecessary timesink. Diablo 3 actually adds depth to the gameplay as you get to higher levels of play.

You're right, they aren't at all different.

Exactly. In CT the narrativr actually changed depending on when you tackled the final boss. From story aspects to what strategic options were available due to available party members to sections of the game that could be essentially skipped over. It was a different experience. D3 essentially offers graduated experience levels. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not a different experience beyond fighting more tougher enemies with a slightly expanded set of skills. You're still playing through the exact same 4 acts repeatedly with no change to the narrative even as far as the ending goes and no real change in gameplay experience. Once again, there's nothing wrong with that gameplay flow but it's hardly a proper NG+ given what you get in most RPGs with a similar named mode.

 

[Kunzer]

I played diablo 3 for over 12 hours just now. Absolutely amazing patch was (1.0.4) released today.

It was my personal elysium of gaming.

 

[Signa]

For just one moment, I thought actually Blizzard came up with a way to alleviate the problems caused by the idiotic level 60 cap. Turns out they just made two more stats ultimately pointless.

I dunno man, I love every anti-blizz/D3 comment you've made, but this sounds like a step in the right direction to me. Does it fix the game enough for me to want to play it? HELL NO! But does it address (just) one of my many complaints about the game? Yes.

RPGs are fun in part because of their progression. The progression in D3 is laughable, and this addresses some of the reasons why it's so bad.

Hey, why do I get a compliment the moment you disagree with me?

well, you've been negating my reason to post in almost every D3 thread that pops up. No opportunity then.

See, I don't think this addresses anything about the game, and does indeed render two item stats ultimately pointless. What once had the slightest tinge of varied approach (do I wear items that are stronger but net less loot, or weaker ones that net more?) is now something that gets washed away with several weeks of farming. This only serves to further shallow the already incredibly shallow gameplay of D3, and this is why I'm against it. With the way they're going with this, they might as well remove those two stats from items entirely, otherwise they're going to be looking at two more fluff stats that clog up the itemization and leave people disappointed about the loot.

I guess if all you (not you specifically) want is see some sort of increasing number as you play, sure, this does address something. But then I'm not one of the people who simply want to watch some sort of experience bar fill up with nothing to show for it.

Having never played Diablo 3, I can't tell for sure how much this worsens it from that perspective. I can only go by what others have told me and how I thought of it. In D2, MF was an annoying stat (but in a good way), because it meant sacrificing wearing good loot to hope for better loot. It's a tradeoff that I couldn't afford in the later levels. You're right in that it makes the game even less complex (something that endlessly pisses me off), but as my friends describe inferno mode, there doesn't even seem to be the option to attempt wearing MF gear, because you get raped with your best stuff on. Factor in other points I've heard like how Blizz keeps fucking with the item drop rate so you won't ever get the loot you need for inferno, and that MF stats are just randomly tacked onto other loot, so there isn't always a negative tradeoff, I still only see this change as good. It's not like you will be earning MF stats while playing Normal through Hell.

Once again, this isn't something that I'm saying will make me play the game and that all is forgiven. It's just a slight tiptoe in the right direction, because it addresses just a small bit of the broken gameplay. Perhaps it breaks other things too, but I still like the idea that you won't waste time by playing for hours and not finding anything and thus having no progression.

 

[Signa]

By the way, either the loss of depth is something that endlessly pisses you off, or you only see this change as good. These are mutually exclusive statements.

Mostly, yes, but I believe some games can become a perfect storm of broken that they become fun. There is also a bit of convenience granted here which I won't underestimate. It's a convenience you have to work for, which I like. I griped about Skyrim having regenerating health at the start of the game, because you didn't have to work for it like in Morrowind. Anyway, I doubt this is one of those cases, but I'm making as much of an effort to give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt. I didn't think they'd even go this far to "improve" things. Honestly, I expected them to just leave it alone and hope that people will give them more money.

 

[Th37thTrump3t]

This is great, but without new maps and enemies it seems pointless.

If they release an expansion pack I'll most definitely get back into it.

http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1375436/diablo_3_players_shouldnt_expect_dlc_expansions_blizzard.html

Sorry to burst your bubble there bucky.

OT: Eh, if it means it won't be as fucking hard to find gear that I can... ahem.. [HEADING=1]ACTUALLY CONSIDER USING[/HEADING]

[sub](I stress this extremely, if you couldn't tell.)[/sub]

then I'm for it.

 

[Lunar Templar]

or .... a lack of anything to do after finishing the story (no, the extra diff don't count, i mean real content not doing the old stuff again), the nerfs that are just shallow means of forcing people to the AH, cause god forbid some one beat a boss with less then prefect gear -.-

If you haven't beaten the higher difficulties yet, know that it's very doable even without AH gear all the way up to Inferno (but not including).

And the extra difficulties are a design choice that not many people disagree with.

the problem i had with the 'higher diffs' is that they really aren't harder save a few cheap tricks thrown in for the random blue/gold enemy's.

that and i didn't really find the story worth going over again, course, my personal disappointment can be summed up with 'didn't think it'd be all about the numbers' won't make that mistake again

 

[Atmos Duality]

So the answer to the loot grind becoming boring: LEVEL GRINDING!! OF COURSE!

It's clear to me that Blizzard isn't interested in creating fun* games anymore, but creating addictive* games that they can milk for cash.

Frankly, it's sickening.

(*No, these are NOT one in the same. There are great games that are not addictive, and there are addictive games that are not great)

It isn't grinding if you enjoy it, There is a zen like quality to grinding in games like this.
Grind isn't inherently a bad thing you know, just as long as the gameplay itself is enjoyable to play for hours on end.

Great gameplay doesn't need grind to justify it, but grind ALWAYS needs great gameplay to justify it.

 

[DracoSuave]

Chrono Trigger is a JRPG from the SNES era that, to my knowledge, is the first major title to have a New Game Plus mode. The difference, as you've stated, is that CT isn't a loot fest ARPG. CT is, at it's core, a JRPG that has 12ish endings, some of which require you to have finished the game at least once to access. Thus, yeah, there really is no real comparison between NG+ in CT and what is basically NG+ in D3. NG+ in CT lets you play through the same game in different ways, actually coming to sometimes radically different endings. NG+ in D3 means you play the whole game over again with exactly the same experience just hoping you get good enough loot drops to keep you moving forward.

Now now, let's be REALLY honest.

CT's multiple endings were not at all from divergent paths, but simply due to when in the narrative you decided to defeat the end boss. That's all. Otherwise, the second playthrough's story is EXACTLY the same, and all the combat is simply a formality because difficulty doesn't change to suit NG+.

D3, on the other hand, actually DOES ratchet up the difficulty, so that the actual process of killing does change. On top of this, your character, unlike CT, will actually acquire new abilities, thus keeping the gameplay varied over time.

Fundamentally, Chrono Trigger's NG+ gimmick is that you get to start powerful enough to take Lavos on and see what-if endings but the gameplay itself is simply an unnecessary timesink. Diablo 3 actually adds depth to the gameplay as you get to higher levels of play.

You're right, they aren't at all different.

Exactly. In CT the narrativr actually changed depending on when you tackled the final boss. From story aspects to what strategic options were available due to available party members to sections of the game that could be essentially skipped over. It was a different experience. D3 essentially offers graduated experience levels. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not a different experience beyond fighting more tougher enemies with a slightly expanded set of skills. You're still playing through the exact same 4 acts repeatedly with no change to the narrative even as far as the ending goes and no real change in gameplay experience. Once again, there's nothing wrong with that gameplay flow but it's hardly a proper NG+ given what you get in most RPGs with a similar named mode.

So having access to new abilities and skills doesn't change the gameplay? I mean are people beating normal mode at level 60? No, they aren't. Are there different abilities available all the way to leve 60? Of course.

As opposed to the 'depth' of CT in NG+ which involves spamming Luminaire. Sorry, but it Lavos isn't really a difficult boss to beat with the possible exception of the Developer room ending when you only have two characters. Even then it isn't like the strategy 'The bit is the real Lavos' changes at all, and that's all you need to know to beat him.

And you're still playing through the same story, the ONLY difference is when you choose to stop. It's a neat gimmick, but it's hardly like other games with NG+ which actually introduce new game elements or have branching paths to explore.

Diablo is linear. CT is linear. Diablo has a semblance of escalating difficulty to match the higher character levels. CT does not. CT lets you fight the end boss at any time, Diablo does not. But that's hardly 'different narrative' as CT allows you to do this without NG+. You don't even open up extra hard mode dungeons in CT (unless you have the ds remake). It truly is not as different as you claim

 

[Atmos Duality]

Depends what you enjoy in a game. I enjoy being constantly challenged and discovering new tactics, and random generated elites does that. If you enjoy diverse gameplay, D3 isnt for you.

Short Version: It's not really a matter of diversity, it's just that I enjoy LEGITIMATE challenge, not this artificial difficulty crap D3 throws at you.

Spoiler: Longer Version

I enjoy Nethack, which is very much a roguelike with a HUGE emphasis placed on items and random encounters. (and if you haven't played it, give it a try. It's a real challenge if you can get past the graphics, but even failed attempts are amusing and fun.)

Also, I enjoyed D2 for nearly a solid decade from the game's launch until a few years ago.

Same with a number of "Monster Mash Loot games" (Borderlands, Torchlight, and looking forward to both of their sequels here in the coming months), even the occasional playthrough of Gauntlet Legends and Castle Crashers.

But what separates them from D3 largely is that the challenge doesn't come purely from stat-hacks and random luck drops (luck can happen in most of the above, but it isn't REQUIRED to progress) but from rewarding the player's short and long term decisions.

Do I make an item stash here? Do I use this weapon/skill here now, do I funnel the enemies into a killzone, or try to pick them off? When do I blow powerful items/cooldowns? Risk using un-IDed items now or later?

Truncheoning an elite to death with a weapon or spell might be tense the first few times, and it might even turn into a nasty game of cat-and-mouse with the local terrain (I did this all the time with off-builds in D2's Hell Mode).

Doing it 10, 50, 200 times solely because you need the item drop to proceed...it becomes droll. It becomes botting in every way short of actual automation, and Diablo 3 is boring precisely because eventually, it becomes a REQUIREMENT to proceed.

If you just want to kill those elites over and over, good for you. You've found a very specific niche that you enjoy. Consider yourself blessed.

However, the REAL challenge isn't in facing the elites and bosses. It's finding an item that's worth a damn at drop rates that are abysmally low, and since that's controlled entirely by luck, *player input has no real meaning*.
So D3 becomes a series of plateaus, wherein eventually through luck, you get to ascend to the next part.

I wouldn't have any problem with this design if the game rewarded you at all for being clever or technical. But it doesn't, because it was built to deliberately minimize that.

Of course, Blizzard was banking on people getting hooked to the Skinner Box mechanics and making money for them via the Auction House with no further effort because of this; however, given the fact that they had to address this problem at all, that plan has backfired.

Keeping in line with their long-term goals, the only recourse they have isn't to make the game more interesting or less of a grind, but to add a different, more consistent kind of grind that attempts to get the sheep back in their pen lest any more escape.

Hand wave that away as subjective if it pleases you, but know that I'm not buying it for a second. I don't think it's solely a matter of "liking" or "disliking" D3, but a problem of Blizzard's financial ambitions directly interfering with game design. It's preventing them from providing a fun, mechanically superior game.

I've seen better, and I've certainly played better.
Tangentially: Having seen my friends and family's accounts be compromised because of Blizzard's incompetence, I'm glad I didn't buy Diablo 3.

 

[DracoSuave]

Tangentially: Having seen my friends and family's accounts be compromised because of Blizzard's incompetence, I'm glad I didn't buy Diablo 3.

Most of the time, it's not Blizzard's fault when an account gets 'hacked'. It's generally a keylogger on the breached person's computer.

Secondly, there was a major security breach, but to simply say 'Oh blizzard's fail' is very simplistic and it doesn't take into account the facts.

Fact 1: The most lucrative form of computer crime existent today is by far without ANY debate, the violation of WoW accounts. Take any other form of computer crime, including hacked accounts for every other game put together, and it doesn't equal the amount of money made through keylogging WoW players.

Fact 2: That means that these criminals can afford to bring on the best to deal with this situation. If you have a multi-billion dollar organized crime syndicate, you can afford to throw money at your business and expect a mighty return.

Fact 3: You don't even have to hire a top-notch cracker to do this job. If you throw enough money out there, at the right person, it becomes an inside job, and creating a backdoor is relatively speaking, a snap.

Fact 4: The international nature of this type of crime makes prosecution and even investigation very difficult. Blizzard Activision has a lot of money, but they don't have Shadowrun Megacorp kinda money to throw at it, and they certainly can't afford to have international black-ops teams to dispense justice.

Blizzard can only do so much against the resources that are allayed against it--and the fact that they DO do what they can with the success they have is evidence enough that they're not buffoons about this.

Remember: All the breaches -except for 1- are all local to the user's computer. Blizzard can't stop that. What do you expect them to do, include an up-to-date of Norton with every subscription?