Blood magic in Dragon Age - Your opinions

[RJ 17]

The fact you can find a build to make use of it doesn't actually change my point, I could find a build to make use of the shapeshifter ability quite easily, the point is that there is a disconnect between game play and story, it SHOULD be massively over powered but with equally large story reasons NOT to use it, what it shouldn't be is ignored by the story and only useful for certain builds. If you look at it the way it's portrayed in the story it's a comstant temptation for every Mage, that its unlimited power but at a dreadful cost, where is that in the game play? Where is the temptation to give it to every Mage because it makes them an evil god? Not for certain builds where you have done this and that, for EVERY Mage, unlimited power

But you need to remember that the perception of Blood Magic to which you refer is that of other NPCs, legendary lore, and the populace in general, and it doesn't mean that it's a truth.

The way I look at Blood Magic it's like a drug, and like drugs people aren't always in possession of all the facts and don't know how to use them properly. Blood Magic, like drugs, is a taboo subject - you don't leave school with a qualification knowing how to take and use them, you rely on what you pickup, hear, and read.

A lot of the "temptation" and "don't do blood magic, it's bad m'kay" which you hear from the circle is as vague as the same gumph we get from PC types about drugs, and the actual effects could be miles off their opinion of what they are. The temptation may be there, but it's only temptation of the unknown or ill-explained, and like such things half of the temptation is the mystery which surrounds it.

While I disagree with Anthony in his implying that Blood Magic isn't overpowered (as I just explained to wulfy, if used properly with any build it's still obscenely overpowered), there is no doubt about a disconnect between NPC use of blood magic as related to the story and player-used blood magic as it relates to the story. In DAO it can be played off as "Well...you ARE a Grey Warden soooooo...ummmm...I guess anything that helps stop the Darkspawn is alright...." at least that's how I always justified none of the other characters batting an eye as I slit my wrists to make people's blood boil, suck the life out of my own friends so I can keep casting, or out right control people's minds. But in DA2 there really isn't any excuse. You spend the vast majority of the game killing Blood Mages, so I can't help but imagine that some members of your party would have a pretty big problem with the fact that you, yourself, are a blood mage. Beyond that is the fact that, like I mentioned in my response to wulfy, Blood Magic is demonic magic. You can't learn it through normal means, you have to learn it from a demonic spell book or have a demon teach it to you directly. To say there's nothing wrong or evil about consorting with demons is just silly. Deals with demons always turn out bad for the mortal, as the demon always rigs the deal in their favor, usually with dire consequences for many other mortals other than the person the deal is being struck with.

So really, it's not just vague warnings from NPCs saying "Don't do blood magic because we don't like it", it's established canon that blood magic always leads to disaster.......except when the player uses it for some reason. It's built into the story itself that blood magic is evil, the history of Thedas proves this. The closest argument you could come up with against this fact would be to point out that "The Sith aren't really evil, they just have a different way of thinking than the Jedi." Then you look at the fact that the Sith will do anything to increase their own power, use abilities that melt people's faces off with lightning, and don't hesitate to choke the life from a person that displeases them and your argument kinda falls to pieces. What the player does with blood magic is one thing, what the story holds as canon is something completely different. They did a better job in at least trying to show the player's temptation with blood magic in DAO than they did in DA2. In DA2, once you get to the right level you can just say "Oh, by the way, I can use blood magic now" while in DAO you have to strike a deal with a demon in order to learn it or find a demonic spell book.

 

[dando300]

When using blood magic, if your not the protagonist or a companion there is a 99% chance you will turn into a mindless creature of hate, also it looks rather painful, also the mage using it looses most of their health doing it meaning they get one-shoted by an archer.

 

[Terminal Blue]

I still found it pretty powerful in DA2 as i always had him teamed with a ranger so i could use Grim Sacrifice on the rangers pet summon to get health back easily

I should point out reading this thread, in DA:O to avoid killing or draining a party members HP to heal yourself, bring a Rogue along with the Ranger specialization.

Spoiler: Clever girl!

Seriously, guys.. that's a good one.

Unfortunately, ranger is a pretty poor rogue specialization, but since Leliana is already an archer and archery doesn't synergize well with anything, that could be really neat in Origins.

Blood magic is broken. Sure you can be an OP immortal Arcane Blood Warrior, but blood magic is supposed to be ridiculously overpowered by itself.

Hey, here's a point..

Who (in game) actually tells you that blood magic is ridiculously overpowered?

From what I can see, the "power" of blood magic is that it allows three things magic can't normally do.

a) Summoning demons into the world physically.
b) Mind control.
c) Casting spells without mana or lyrium.

Now, the second and third are actually represented in the blood magic skill tree, so it's really only the first, which from every example we see of it being used in game is clearly a really bad idea anyway, that is missing.

So, here's a thought. Maybe these things just aren't as powerful as either the Templar or Blood Mages make out. After all, it's not like either of these groups has a motivation to exaggerate the potential rewards/harm of blood magic to make themselves seem more important, is it.

Your characters, both in DA1 and DA2, kill plenty of blood mages. They're just not that great.

Yeah there's certain people in the game and backstory who use blood magic and are very powerful, but generally they were incredibly gifted mages to begin with.

 

[Mid Boss]

I thought the reason why blood magic was so dangerous and feared was because it allowed a mage to control people. On top of that you have that demons teach it, the mages that created the darkspawn abused it, and that a normal mage is fearfully powerful while only relying on their mana pool. While blood magic allows them to have near infinite magic as they draw power from servants or slayed enemies. That all amounts to a LOT to be afraid of even for people who don't already fear and hate mages to begin with.

 

[Terminal Blue]

While blood magic allows them to have near infinite magic as they draw power from servants or slayed enemies.

I think it's kind of implied in game that the blood has to be sacrificed ritually.. and that you can't just grab any nearby source of blood and use it to power a spell.

It may seem arbitrary, but magic in the Dragon Age universe is actually extremely limited in terms of what it can do. It's not like D&D or magic the gathering where you can basically do anything given enough time and mana, there are very strict rules.. albeit rules which the mages in Dragon Age 2 constantly break in really annoying ways!

Seriously, it's actually a thing in Dragon Age lore that magic cannot allow someone to teleport under any circumstances.

 

[DoPo]

The fact you can find a build to make use of it doesn't actually change my point, I could find a build to make use of the shapeshifter ability quite easily

Yes, it'd be a very specialised build. And it would still be shit compared to any that doesn't use shapeshifting, including a pure mage. Sure, you can turn into a bear and maul people's faces off, but while you're doing that, you're not casting spells. Spells win combat. They don't contribute to it, they win it - why would you maul somebody when you can disable all your enemies and then slaughter them at once? Even healing is better used instead of turning into a bear. Blood magic, however, synergises well with any mage build - an arcane warrior who turns into a better warrior than...well, warriors, would still benefit frombeing able to cast spells from HP, even if that's the only blood mage spell you take, a spirit healer can also benefit from occasionally stunlocking all enemies or being able to cast from HP for that last heal (if you really want your mage to be a cleric instead of winning combat). A shapeshifter brings nothing to contribute to the mage - it is just weird and gives you some cool sounding abilities that actually clash with the character.

the point is that there is a disconnect between game play and story

Yet, you were talking mechanics before. I don't think anybody is contesting that point. Heck, I really wanted to see what happened if I made Wynne a blood mage and...she did nothing. I expected her to refuse, maybe fight her or she might have left but nada - it was just like

Wynne: Blood magic is bad, unholy and blasphemous, mmkay
Grey Warden: Hey, Wynne, can you become a blood mage for me?
Wynne: *shrugs* Whatever, ok.

It was extremely underwhelming.

If you look at it the way it's portrayed in the story it's a comstant temptation for every Mage, that its unlimited power but at a dreadful cost, where is that in the game play? Where is the temptation to give it to every Mage because it makes them an evil god? Not for certain builds where you have done this and that, for EVERY Mage, unlimited power

EVERY mage benefits from blood magic, EVERY one. Not certain builds. Well, except shapeshifters, who trade in their robe and wizard hat for a furry suit. And while there is disconnect in story/gameplay, you're wrong here - magic is already really powerful, but mages are limited by their mana bar - you can quick cast several spells but when you run out of mana and you have to finish off the fight, then it's the time to reach for your own life force. Yeah, it hurts, but it would hurt more if you let the enemies get to you - your life is always there, ready for the taking, ready to aid you when your normal magic has let you down. But even then, you can only give so much life, yet, there is the life of your friends. They wouldn't mind, would they? They wouldn't mind you taking a chunk of their life if you are going to save them from baddies chewing their faces. You are going to save everybody from baddies, so what's some small sacrifice, if you can even call it that? They are willing to fight and be injured for you, and that's not really a sacrifice, so a little shortening of their lifespan shouldn't be that difficult.

There you go, the temptation and the reason to take up blood magic. I played a blood mage[footnote]yeah, just a blood mage, picked up a spirit healer as a second specialisation, just for the passive bonuses, nothing else[/footnote] and I can say that, yeah - that's how I was thinking. Oh, mana is out, just tap into life - I can just kill everybody so they won't hit me. And yeah, that tank is useless, I'll take some of his health, they don't need it anyway. My mage went from winning battles on his own, to owning the battlefield. I specifically strayed away from the arcane warrior, since I didn't want him to get even more OP and just take over everybody's jobs. On rare occasions, I'd also get Wynne and Morrigan with me (both had blood mage specialisation) to just laugh at how useless the enemies were.

But if we take a look at slightly more from story perspective, it makes a lot of sense for normal mages to get blood magic - access to abilities far beyond any normal mage has, alsohe ability to not rely on lyrium. And you know how mages tend to be frail? Yeah, that's where the blood sacrifice comes in - the PC has the advantage of being able to min-max and twink, other mages have to work with what they have. If you're casting from HP and you've not got a lot of HP, why not just kill somebody and fuel your magic for a while, being able to go even further than any other mage. Sure, they can throw a fireball at you, but you can throw back 5. When you get to manipulate the others, then the possibilities just keep opening up.

I can't see why you cannot see the appeal of blood magic. For the PC it allows them to roflstomp through enemies with ease, for others, it allows them access to more power than before.

 

[Ishal]

It was an interesting concept that was poorly executed. Blood being power for magic and more powerful than lyrium was interesting. However it was botched in the story. The story that we all so proudly praised Bioware for, they were good storytellers once, but we know better now.

There was no consequences for using a power that harmed your own party members in battle.

After a battle...

Alistair: Ummm yeah... warden... hi... Just wanted to touch base with about the whole siphoning my life energy and blood to fuel your own magic. Yeah... I'm not really cool with that, especially since you didn't even ask. Kind of a dick move really...

That kind of stuff, that kind of magic belongs in tevinter. Where a mage can strut onto a battlefield with 100 slaves in chains behind him and use them for the casting. It doesn't belong with your party members unless they are all mindless drones... and with Bioware's writing, how can they be? pshhhh

Plus there is the whole hidden subplot about the origin of blood magic. Despite lore, it could be that the old gods did NOT teach the first tevinter mages blood magic. It was in fact a group of demons. You kill one in origins (Gaxkang) and one in DAII and find evidence of others including one called "the formless one". I doubt this plot will be expanded on further, just a another loose end to feign competence in storytelling.

 

[Anthony Corrigan]

I play a pure Mage and specialised archaine and spirt healer, Morrigan was my secondary and I kept shale and lianna as an archer and thief. I got never run out of spell points and as I said the first 3 spells I cast are the 3 top elemental spells because they wipe out huge groups. IF I ever run out of mana which is rare I just neck a liriun potion

 

[Doom972]

Never played Dragon Age, but after reading everything, I kind of want to, since I find that concept pretty awesome. Not sure if it's the high-risk/high-reward glass cannon tack, the insane idea, or maybe if I just want to play another game where I can imitate <url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bdATVi_AxA>this guy.

Sadly, blood bending concept was butchered for me in Legend Of Korra. It's still terrifying, but now it's so overpowered it's almost comical.

Did you watch all the way to the end?

Spoiler

There were exactly three people who could do the superpowered bloodbending, and all of them are now dead with no heirs.

I did, but still, bloodbending whole court including THE AVATAR during daytime is just plain ridiculous.

Even more ridiculous was the fact that they linked Spirit Bending (which was previously available only to avatars), to Blood Bending. Spirit Bending is outside of the four elements (effectively a fifth element), so any bender who's not an avatar shouldn't have access to it.

I liked the Legend of Korra because of the culture and technology of that world, but I prefer not to think of it as canon in the Avatar universe.

 

[IllumInaTIma]

Never played Dragon Age, but after reading everything, I kind of want to, since I find that concept pretty awesome. Not sure if it's the high-risk/high-reward glass cannon tack, the insane idea, or maybe if I just want to play another game where I can imitate <url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bdATVi_AxA>this guy.

Sadly, blood bending concept was butchered for me in Legend Of Korra. It's still terrifying, but now it's so overpowered it's almost comical.

Did you watch all the way to the end?

Spoiler

There were exactly three people who could do the superpowered bloodbending, and all of them are now dead with no heirs.

I did, but still, bloodbending whole court including THE AVATAR during daytime is just plain ridiculous.

Even more ridiculous was the fact that they linked Spirit Bending (which was previously available only to avatars), to Blood Bending. Spirit Bending is outside of the four elements (effectively a fifth element), so any bender who's not an avatar shouldn't have access to it.

I liked the Legend of Korra because of the culture and technology of that world, but I prefer not to think of it as canon in the Avatar universe.

Wait what? Didn't Amon just blocked some chakras with blood bending? I mean, Aang effectively took away someone's spirit and this way their bending. It's more effective, but also more risky, because if you screw up you compromise your own spirit. Amon on the other hand just kinda blocked it. At least, that's how I perceived it.

 

[Doom972]

Never played Dragon Age, but after reading everything, I kind of want to, since I find that concept pretty awesome. Not sure if it's the high-risk/high-reward glass cannon tack, the insane idea, or maybe if I just want to play another game where I can imitate <url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bdATVi_AxA>this guy.

Sadly, blood bending concept was butchered for me in Legend Of Korra. It's still terrifying, but now it's so overpowered it's almost comical.

Did you watch all the way to the end?

Spoiler

There were exactly three people who could do the superpowered bloodbending, and all of them are now dead with no heirs.

I did, but still, bloodbending whole court including THE AVATAR during daytime is just plain ridiculous.

Even more ridiculous was the fact that they linked Spirit Bending (which was previously available only to avatars), to Blood Bending. Spirit Bending is outside of the four elements (effectively a fifth element), so any bender who's not an avatar shouldn't have access to it.

I liked the Legend of Korra because of the culture and technology of that world, but I prefer not to think of it as canon in the Avatar universe.

Wait what? Didn't Amon just blocked some chakras with blood bending? I mean, Aang effectively took away someone's spirit and this way their bending. It's more effective, but also more risky, because if you screw up you compromise your own spirit. Amon on the other hand just kinda blocked it. At least, that's how I perceived it.

That would make more sense, but I'm pretty sure that it was said that he used Spirit Bending. He even made the exact same motion Aang did when he took away Ozai's bending.

 

[IllumInaTIma]

Never played Dragon Age, but after reading everything, I kind of want to, since I find that concept pretty awesome. Not sure if it's the high-risk/high-reward glass cannon tack, the insane idea, or maybe if I just want to play another game where I can imitate <url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bdATVi_AxA>this guy.

Sadly, blood bending concept was butchered for me in Legend Of Korra. It's still terrifying, but now it's so overpowered it's almost comical.

Did you watch all the way to the end?

Spoiler

There were exactly three people who could do the superpowered bloodbending, and all of them are now dead with no heirs.

I did, but still, bloodbending whole court including THE AVATAR during daytime is just plain ridiculous.

Even more ridiculous was the fact that they linked Spirit Bending (which was previously available only to avatars), to Blood Bending. Spirit Bending is outside of the four elements (effectively a fifth element), so any bender who's not an avatar shouldn't have access to it.

I liked the Legend of Korra because of the culture and technology of that world, but I prefer not to think of it as canon in the Avatar universe.

Wait what? Didn't Amon just blocked some chakras with blood bending? I mean, Aang effectively took away someone's spirit and this way their bending. It's more effective, but also more risky, because if you screw up you compromise your own spirit. Amon on the other hand just kinda blocked it. At least, that's how I perceived it.

That would make more sense, but I'm pretty sure that it was said that he used Spirit Bending. He even made the exact same motion Aang did when he took away Ozai's bending.

Blood bending doesn't require physical contact, so maybe that was just for show? Well, I'm rewatching Avatar series right now, so guess I'm gonna find out.

 

[ecoho]

only problem I have with it is the stupid restriction bioware put on it because their testers were complete idiots. What's worse there's no way to fix it on a console!(before any of you pc people go and say I should have bought it on pc, it wasn't an option at the time)

 

[Raziello]

Gameplay and lore always conflict in this kind of thing. Gameplay wise you either love it or hate it. Lore wise its very interesting.

A character ritually makes a sacrifice of their own or anothers blood for heightened powers/spells, this sacrifice is what makes one weak to possession. Souls and blood are often interlinked lore wise so to sacrifise your blood your also perhaps sacrificing/using part of your soul for power, sacrifise too much and your soul is easy to take/replace by demons which is why blood magic nearly always leads to dark places (as you see in Dragon Age 2 where it runs rampant.) You also have the fact it becomes addictive due to the power increase and feelings it provides much like various drugs. To use it you cant just stab your own hand and expect godlike powers, you have to know the rituals and techniques, much like most magic and whos more than happy to teach you such techniques - people high on the power and demons who are waiting for the chance to use you.

Controlling blood, causing bleeding etc. which is also by definition blood magic as in blood manipulation but isnt necessarily the same power as using the blood sacrificially. Since blood is a key to living id imagine its clustered all together as its still potentially pretty lethal and powerful magic.

Atleast this is how i see it.

I would imagine their are rules to the blood magic that have never been officially mentioned like say the more personal the sacrifice the greater the power ie. sacrifice a stranger for a small boost, sacrifice a friend/relative for a medium boost, sacrifice part of your self a huge boost and the most risky.

 

[DoPo]

I would imagine their are rules to the blood magic that have never been officially mentioned like say the more personal the sacrifice the greater the power ie. sacrifice a stranger for a small boost, sacrifice a friend/relative for a medium boost, sacrifice part of your self a huge boost and the most risky.

Yeah, if Dragon Age is using the law of correspondence, then that is how it should work. And judging by DA:O, it seems to be doing that - you first learn to reach out to your own life-force, then to that of those close to you, then you get gross manipulation of strangers, then fine manipulation of strangers.

 

[Chris Tian]

there are very strict rules.. albeit rules which the mages in Dragon Age 2 constantly break in really annoying ways!

Seriously, it's actually a thing in Dragon Age lore that magic cannot allow someone to teleport under any circumstances.

Oh boy, I hated that sooooo much. You can find this Codex entry in DA:O and the mages in DA2 completely ignore that. I mean was there nobody in the DA2 team who remembered that they clearly stated that its impossible to teleport in DA:O?

OT: The thing I don't get is: Why did they make Blood Magic such a big deal storywise anyway? Somebody there must have noticed that there would be a big discrepancy between gameplay and story.

Neither the story in DA:O nor the one in DA2 really needed Blood Magic to be this super evil, totally illegal form of magic. They could just have established Blood Magic as shunned and viewed as bad and maybe forbidden to lower circle mages. If they just went that route the problem would not even exist so... why?

 

[Thee Lost One]

I'll try and keep this short.

In the games, Blood magic was great if you knew how to use it, but could've been better in ease of use. DA2 was a step in the right direction by having items that upped how many Mana per hit points you could get.

Lore wise, I think blood magic can and should be taught like any other school of magic. The only reason the most common way of learning it is from demons is because no mortals know it or are willing to reveal they know it to share it. If the knowledge was openly spread among people, they could learn from each other rather than having to deal with Demons and the risks inherent with such acts.

And since the only easy way to learn it is from demon's, they're seen as an intrinsic part of blood magic which just isn't true in DA lore. Hawk comes across a number of blood mages who taught each other, and s/he himself/herself doesn't learn it from demons but rather his elf companion ( process of logical deduction), if they take up the specialization. Hell for all we know, Hawk could've picked it up by simple observation.

 

[RJ 17]

Snip.

There's kinda a big difference between buying drugs from a drug dealer and learning forbidden magic from a demon. Drug dealers are, for all intents and purposes, normal people who happen to sell drugs. It's their way of making money so they can continue to live. Demons, on the other hand, aren't normal people. They're creatures born of the worst aspects of humanity (Lust, Sloth, Pride, Rage, etc to name a few of the demons in the DA universe). Their entire purpose of existence is to devour the souls of mortals and in general cause as much chaos and destruction as they possibly can.

Did Emperor Palpatine melt people's faces off because someone wronged him in the past? Or did he do it because he wanted absolute power and to rule through fear? That's the entire point of the Death Star: blow up a planet so everyone else is too terrified to have act up against you. Did Vader choke people out because his one true love died? Granted, that's what ultimately pushed him to the Dark Side, but in the original trilogy he was choking people for failing him or, in a case or two, just because they disagreed with him.

You're right, there are a lot of things that are based on perspective, but in the words of Lewis Black: "There has to come a time when we can look at something and all agree on what the hell we're looking at. You can't see a video of a cat getting run over by a car and say "Well the cat was trying to kill itself." " It's quite simple, really. Demons are the source of Blood Magic, Demons are pure evil incarnate, therefor: Blood Magic comes from evil incarnate. Getting back to the point: the only reason your character doesn't suddenly start turning more evil and insane after you become a blood mage is because it would take control away from the player, forcing them down a set path. They'd have had to rewrite the entire story just so they could tell it from the point of view of a blood mage struggling against the constant temptations and whisperings of demons begging to be let into their body, promising power beyond their wildest dreams.

There-in lies the disconnect: based on everything that's seen in both games, the player characters are the only ones that are capable of using blood magic with no negative side-effects. Every other blood mage is either completely insane, completely evil, or causes some horrible tragedy. Take Merrill for instance. She learned blood magic for the noble goal of wanting to restore a part of her elven heritage. How does that end? You have to kill her Keeper to stop a powerful demon from being loosed on the world and, unless you play your cards right, you end up having to slaughter her entire tribe. "But she was using it for good reasons!" Yeah, and we all saw how that ended up. It's official DA canon: nothing good comes from using blood magic, there's a REASON it's been forbidden throughout the history of Thedas. If it had it's merits or was just a matter of perspective, it would be accepted in other provinces than just the Tervintir Imperium (aka the evil empire which is apparently the very reason there's Darkspawn and Blights in the first place). It would be a subject of debate, not wholly forbidden...just like how some countries don't care about drug use while others have strict restrictions against them.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

I like it as a plot device, being as it is, feared within the world. It draws demons to the mage and increases the likelihood of them becoming an abomination (although the amount of abominations fought in both games kinda implies that trying to stop it is a lost cause!), the fear it creates, the good/evil paradigm, etc.

Sadly, in practice it's not particularly useful and even less so considering what else is available. In unmodded DA:O, Blood Magic and Shapeshifting were both pretty poor and good for little beyond role-play purposes (though as has been mentioned, no one bats an eyelid at the player's use of it. Seriously, doing the Mage Tower chapter, you can walk in and straight to the head mage and templar in Blood Magic mode, glowing red shit everywhere, and not a word). Frankly, if you were using either in lieu of elemental, spirit or mind blast you were hamstringing yourself.

I just wish BW hadn't abandoned Origins so quickly. One expansion, minor DLCs, done within a year. A second expansion would've sold like mad.