Bullying: Stop the complaining.

[Stampede]

Greetings, Escapees! I started reading The Escapist forum during the ME3 ending...thing... and after it toned down (although even at this very moment somebody, somewhere, feels the need to open a topic about it) I kept on coming back for more. It's been a great time sink and I figure "Hey, this is as good a topic as any to take it a step further. Gotta start somewhere...". So... Here we go: (hindsight - damned thing came out long... sorry, first post and all... but be warned)

I agree with andrewfox at the general level. Naturally, like any forum, 30 posts down the conversation people become rather specific and focused on certain aspects and I will get to specifics later on, but I firmly stand behind the idea that every human being needs, not has to or would be great to, n e e d s to at least have a basic understanding of the most fundamental reality - defense of the Self is going to be required at some if not most periods of your life. Darwinism or not it is ultimately true. That being said, it's also true that people are very different in so many ways and how one defends one's Self should be entirely different. Standing up for yourself can have as many forms as there are people. I've seen a lot of them and I agree with most. What I can't agree with is people who are willing to remove the Self from the picture for whatever reason. Viewing bullying as anything else but an attack on one's person (be it emotional or quite bruising) is an unnecessary complication and an error in judgement in my personal opinion. It's hardly a "phenomenon of modern society" and should not deserve such treatment. Like most things that involve people's thoughts and emotions nowadays, bullying falls in the category of "too much media time" which leads to all the natural developments and ultimately to the funny-sad moment when a bullied teenager sees a forum thread or watches a YT video about the same tribulations he/she is going through and doesn't think to himself "Yeah, there are others like me, my story is not unique... So let me figure out how that person lives with it and maybe I can figure my own at some point..." but rather "Damn, this is happening everywhere and no one has an answer, so why should I?". Our modern times are doing a great disservice to everyone by robbing said teenager and everyone like him (which is quite a lot of us at some point) of the will and drive to adapt and if not overcome at least endure this particular behavior. That goes double for the US (since it became a specific thing down the comments) which is notorious for bullying whole countries into economical turmoil, but has a no-nonsense policy for school violence and bullying in particular... No offence yanks, but it doesn't get any more obvious than that. A society that accepts bullying from it's own government for the sake of survival and safety will inescapably let that notion drip down to the youngest and smallest and lead to those very hopeless developments that this topic is aimed at. In general - bullying is like any other human behavior - it can lead to both harmful and beneficial outcomes (sometimes both...) because as humans we are both paradoxical and straight-forward and our very nature is shifting, specially at a young age.

So generally, yeah... Complaining might help, probably won't, but it will certainly deprive you of the need to find or develop qualities that are most certainly useful - strength, endurance, flexibility, cunning and so forth. To deal with it is a general term and I know people don't like those when it comes to emotions and thoughts, but breaking it down I believe it means "figure yourself or the things around you out and stand up in your own way. Grit your teeth, hunker down, maybe punch and claw your way forward or channel your emotions into something, but don't ignore." Ignoring it would be like ignoring ANY problem you might have, which means the outcome won't be much different - it won't go away and regardless of weather it gets worse or not it effectively removes yourself from the defense of your Self... That's redundant.

As for complaining - I strongly believe that it has to stop. There is no point in any case and, to the reasons above, it only serves to aggravate an already aggressive human behavior. A person either does not experience bullying by having the tools necessary, lacks them and either finds a way to endure it or acquire them, living with the scars that follow, or lacks them and doesn't find a way. Either way being vocal about it ranges from pointless to patronizing to downright disgusting.

Me specifically - frequenting a site like the Escapist Mag, you can safely assume that I am your run-of-the-mill, internet-born, game-infused geek. I am, however, blessed with a strong body and a talent for violence, and growing up in Eastern Europe and Northern Africa I've personally felt the effects of quite a lot of types of bullying. Garden-variety violent athletes, religious-based assaults, lifestyle and financial-based abuse etc... The works. I came to understand very early on that people get hurt and broken, but that it goes both ways. I also, even today, deploy the reasoning that everything people do to one another has a point, purpose and specific emotional tone, no matter how deprived or... well, ugly. Understanding and accepting the workings behind people's acts and hitting where it hurts with either fists, words or acts was my standing up. I even got good at it to the point where I became a bully myself. I could pressure and hurt people and a younger, more violent man with socially unaccepted hobbies and interests abused that tool to no end. Recently, being more mature and experienced, I've adapted and changed and now I can help the people around me and even get a job with that very talent.

So yeah. To me it comes down to things that are far away from Highschool life and closer to being human as a whole. Cruelty is part of who we are, same as need, fear, anger, compulsion; having to understand and accept people's more grey qualities at a young age (or hell, even later on) is painful, even more so when you have to aim that very idea at yourself. I believe that bullying has it's part to play in most people's life, same as University pressure, stress at your job, relationships with all manner of people, making choices and living with them... The rules change but to me, the game stays the same.

Lastly, for those extreme cases that end up at the bottom of a sidewalk - I have a hard time believing or finding a reasoning behind the idea that bullying is the greatest, most guilty factor in these cases. I think it brings forward the need that i spoke of and with that comes the avalanche of other things one has to do that are rightfully associated with a lot of pain. To me that sharpens other, more personal and specific, usually horrible elements a child or teenager might be exposed to (abuse, poverty... the really ugly stuff) and those are the reason, the bullying becomes a convenient cause.

 

[Metalchic]

"mean words mean words mean words mean words mean words mean words mean words mean words"


its all i ever hear about when the discussion of bullying comes up. 'mean' 'hurtful' 'harsh' in words mean nothing to me, they meant nothing when i was being bullied in school and mean nothing now. As someone with high functioning autism it makes it hard for me to understand language, when i was in school i had no idea there was even ac concept of underlying secondary meanings to languages. as a result, mean words had the same impact on me as trying to break down a brick wall by spraying it with silly string.

it wasn't the words that hurt, it was the fists. here's how a typical schoolyard altercation would go: someone pushed me down and i scraped my knee, i went to the staff who was supposed to be 'watching' the schoolyard, they would tell me 'i didst see it, it didn't happen.' this sent the message to me that authority didn't really have any authority so i needed to deal with my own problems. however due to having become a squeaky wheel the staff now had their eye on me so when i tried to deal with the situation myself i would be hauled off to detention for starting fights on the schoolyard.

I was always told that bullies run in packs, take out the leader and the rest will scatter. Maybe that's how it was in the 50s when my grandma grew up. but that's not how things worked when i was walking home from school in 1999. Upon clocking the lead bully square in the face and knocking him on his ass i was then held down and kicked black and blue by the bullies buddies and left to limp home, where i got a lecture and grounding from my grandma because the bully went back to the school with his bloody nose and told them i attacked them unprovoked. so what was i supposed to do? not stand up for myself and get kicked and smacked and had people purposefully hitting me in the crotch with balls? if i stood up for myself i got my weak ass pummeled for it and then punished for fighting.

After years of being bullied during my freshman year in high school i finally snapped after this one guy spent the whole day poking me for being fat and wearing a shark shirt from the aquarium. with almost superhuman ability and ability far beyond my overweight self i lept over a 4 foot high science desk that was 6 feet across in a single bound and attempted to stab him with a pen, but he was smaller and weaker than i had become and so his football quarterback buddy tried to pin me, he finally did and i was about to explode again and push him out of my way when the teacher came back into the room and broke it up, i got detention and a psychiatric evaluation he got jack shit. the evaluation came back positive i was not insane or psychotic i had autism. once the news got out the bullying went in a completely other direction, no one was willing to get into a physical altercation with me puberty had made me large and difficult to move around by force. in staid i was completely cut out of the social hierarchy.

no one would work with me, people would not pair up with me, when assigned to pair up with me they would protest till they got detention in staid of working with me. they would double up on students at single desks to avoid sitting within 2 seats of me. in staid of physically bullying me they would do things they knew would annoy me like flick things at me and poke fun at my lisp as well as cut off all contact with me socially. there was the jocks, then there was the nerds, then there was me. technology in the school district suddenly lurched forward in 2002 from 1989 to 1998 with the introduction of the internet and brand new Pentium 2 computers! suddenly everyone wanted my immense technical capability to work with computers so i could help them fix problems with the internet and connect to the printer in the science lab. but they didn't want me to be a part of the social structure anyway. eventually i developed a nihilistic outlook on the whole thing by my senior year the only reason i was still getting up and going to school was because my grandma could motivate my much larger biker thug grandpa to move me physically out of the house and lock the door. why bother? even the teachers wanted to limit their contact with me, i was struggling with the book learning we were trying to do (i need a more hands on demonstration based approach to figure it out) so my grade suffered. and then something magical happened. we got the internet at my house. suddenly i could leverage the entirety of 2006-2007 internet directly into my home. suddenly i could watch videos explaining how to do things and animations detailing how things worked and i could read with as much detail as i wanted how to solve problems i was having. i destroyed comprehension tests and failed horribly on standardized tests and did miserably with 0 on all my standard assignments because i didn't view them as necessary to help me comprehend and absorb and learn the information i was given.

NO ONE NOT A SINGLE SOLITARY PERSON came and asked me however why this was happening. they assumed in staid that i was lazy and that's why i didn't complete my tests, that i didn't study and that's why i did poorly on the standardized tests. they completely ignored the other facets that i was doing much better than everyone else on because all that mattered was the standardized testing. in staid the teachers would push me around insult me, tell me things like 'if you don't do well on these standardized tests i was going to fail life.' they started bullying me just like the other students had done with their social segregation.

the internet has failed to bring into focus one important thing about all this, why i got bullied to start with, why did the kids beat me up in grade school? why did the kids cut me completely out of the social structure and leave me for dead? why did the teachers start bullying me?

The only answer the internet EVER brings me is this: i was bullied becasue i was inadequate and i just needed to stand up for myself. nut my history has taught me otherwise.

 

[Nikolaz72]

http://www.usgovinfo.about.com/cs/healthmedical/a/bullying.htm
(Bullying causes violence in life)
more specific, Bullying leads to violence in schools.
(http://www.nssc1.org/bullying-main-cause-of-school-violence.html)
Countless of proffesionals have made comments on this subject, and the far majority of those specializing in the field agree's that (Standing up for yourself) and (Growing a thicker skin) is 'not' the solution. Actually attempting and failing theese things will lead to a ton of lives ruined beyond repair. In extreme cases, death of hundreds.

 

[WolfThomas]

Obviously everyone has different experiences but telling a teacher only ever resulted in good things for me. A lot of the students who bullied were on very shaky ground with the coordinators for other things like attendance and behaviour in class. Few complaints handled anonymously on top of that (and they always had multiple victims) and they were threatened with outright expulsion, the ones who didn't give a damn got expelled, the ones who needed highschool stopped very quickly.

It really depends on who you find though. Some don't care at all or will even actively try to shush and ignore whatever happens for the 'image of the school' and really don't care about what happens to their pupils. Also many teachers don't realise systematic bullying is a severe behavioural disorder that really needs correcting.

So, as much as they're the people where the solution should be coming from, they can't be relied upon to prevent bullying.

Yeah my school was the only public school in a rural town, so it had a wide socio-economic demagraph, especially a lot of kids from rougher background. No real public image to speak outside of the town.

But this meant they had an absolute zero tolerance policy about anything related to violence, sexual harassment, drugs or alcohol. Because there was no financial incentive to keep trouble students (most weren't even paying the nominal fees) they were quick to expel. Most of the worst kids dropped out when they wedre old enough too also.

 

[Milanezi]

Way I see it, a kid punches the other until ones face gets all torn up, or ruins the kids locker at school, locks the kid inside the locker, etc. All that, that isn't bullying, that's fucking criminal. Granted, in some countries children can't be prosecuted for some crimes, but fact is, this sort of thing is VERY bad, and the kid delivering the pain MUST get some sort of treatment, because kids shouldn't be that violent if you know what I mean.

HOWEVER, if a fat child keeps getting called fat everyday in school, or excluded because he/she is one of those pain-in-the-ass goth types like I was, sometimes the kid gets shoved around, LIGHTLY. DUDE THAT'S CHILDHOOD! They'll grow up to a very unforgiving world, and at first sign of trouble, at work for instance, what will they do? Cry to their bosses? The fall will be hard because they didn't get tough when they were young. It's the same as children who don't get enough exposure to the environment due to a parent's extra-care and then any disease that comes along is fucking brutal. And I'll say something, sometimes that leads to a GOOD habit changing, but I'll point that later, on a personal level.

So I painted two scenarios, I don't mind which one you call bullying, bullying is just a verb, just a word, what I find stressful is how the same word has been filled by the values of both scenarios. I'm against the first scenario, that's VIOLENCE, those are things that would put adults in jail or something.

About seven years ago I decided I turned goth, the reason was pretty sincere even: I started buying this gothic music that I really enjoyed, and then I saw all the girls and guys bundled together in a group with their dark clothing and silver items and what not, and to a young mind that was just "wow!", so I started mingling, going out with them, my parents weren't very happy but didn't complain either, I had high grades, some closer friends (also goths and a few non-goths) that they trusted, didn't get into trouble, etc. There was OBVIOUSLY, bullying, you know how it is, the whole classroom ignoring you, calling you names, making irritating jokes, but that's all it ever got to, and I must admit, any level of violence at ALL never came because of the attitude, only dumb child stuff, such as stupid verbal arguing getting too heated for anybody's good. I remember one day this dude pissed me off so much I just went right at him, it hurt him, we both got into trouble for that, but again, nothing big, but that STAND made the jokes stop for a while. Fast forward me out of school to the first 2 years in college.

I went to Lawschool at FAAP, a Brazilian college that is known for being the hive of popular kids, so you can imagine what happens to the gothic newcomer in a place full of sun-tanned Ferrari driving boys and girls that are the embodiment of what popular people should look like. Inside my classroom it wasn't that bad, but most people avoided me, I could hear whispers, but nothing brutal, only some mean questions from a few people (my classroom turned out to be pretty different from the rest of college), the corridors were bad, people would outright keep staring, laughing, and so on. But slowly I made friends, and one of them, a very religious girl by the way, just turned to me one day, with a firend and said "Dude, stop dressing like that, YOU are pushing people away. You're a very nice guy to talk to, you're a good person, and everyone in the classroom likes you (by then the whole classroom was pretty much befriended and we were starting to own our reputation as the "zoo"), so stop doing this freak show of clothing and stuff. People get uncomfortable to get close, but once they do, they like you, so why not make it easy and quit the gothic show, you're not even REALLY into it". And even though I dismissed it at first, later I did what she said. It worked, and it opened my eyes to something horrible. For a long while my so-called "goth friends" had vanished, if I didn't call them, they wouldn't call me, on the other hand, some of my childhood friends, the more "normal" guys, kept phoning me, inviting me to dinner and all, EVEN THOUGH I was ignoring them.

End result: when I, the victim, quit my bullshit the table turned. I was invited to EVERY party in college, I still am, fact is I hate most parties, so I hardly go, but people would actually get pissed at me because I DIDN'T go and they wanted me there, they wanted ME to share with THEM their happiness. My classroom, particularly, huddled together to become this crazy place (yeah, everyone hated us as a classroom, EVERYONE, we were about to graduate in law, and acted like kids, this friend of mine would buy coconuts to hide inside girls' purses, while others would hide people's bags inside the ceiling, or just hang a dildo at the teacher's table lol), we became FRIENDS, and I GREW, I GREW because the whole "bullying" led me to a point where I said "shit, this girl is right, it's my fucking fault". Everyone knew who I was, they knew I was sorta nuts, a total geek when it came to videogame, and that I enjoyed very hard metal, and nobody gave a shit anymore, because I had changed that little bit that got me in with the (right) crowd.

A year ago or something there was a reunion with people from school, and after of my childhood friends insisting A LOT I went to the damn place (with the fat promise that we would later go to a burger joint lol). What amazed me was that, in the end I discovered that even then, at school, it was I who made things hard for myself, it was I who wasn't open enough to receive a few jokes and a few bullying, and my bullshit gothic "I wanna shock" talk that got me a target on my head. People whom I thought HATED me, just didn't... It's not like they loved me, but they liked me as much as the guys next door. In short, I made school a bad time for me, I have bad memories of it when it could have been as good as college, and it was mostly my fault. But it all came to one conclusion: in the end all the pressure made me a better man.

 

[Metalchic]

Anecdotal Evidence Anecdotal Evidence Anecdotal Evidence Anecdotal Evidence Anecdotal Evidence Anecdotal Evidence Anecdotal Evidence Anecdotal Evidence Anecdotal Evidence Anecdotal Evidence Anecdotal Evidence Anecdotal Evidence Anecdotal Evidence Anecdotal Evidence Anecdotal Evidence Anecdotal Evidence Anecdotal Evidence Anecdotal Evidence

Dude. Geez. Try and get some proffesional sources, I mean... Personal examples are fine, but for every A you come up with, I bet that there are five more B's lying around.

usgovinfo.about.com/cs/healthmedical/a/bullying.htm
(Bullying causes violence in life)
more specific, Bullying leads to violence in schools.
(http://www.nssc1.org/bullying-main-cause-of-school-violence.html)
Countless of proffesionals have made comments on this subject, and the far majority of those specializing in the field agree's that (Standing up for yourself) and (Growing a thicker skin) is 'not' the solution. Actually attempting and failing theese things will lead to a ton of lives ruined beyond repair. In extreme cases, death of hundreds.

excuse me what? the overarching point i was trying to convey was that standing up for myself wasn't working. i wasn't providing 'anecdotal' evidence i was providing personal experience you were supposed to come to your own conclusion based on what i had written.

as for "lives ruined beyond repair" let me put it this way, when the emergency services called up to tell me my grandfather had been run over by a fully loaded gravel truck, several people hurt and 10000s of $ in damages caused my response was an indifferent "oh ok"

 

[Nikolaz72]

excuse me what? the overarching point i was trying to convey was that standing up for myself wasn't working. i wasn't providing 'anecdotal' evidence i was providing personal experience you were supposed to come to your own conclusion based on what i had written.

as for "lives ruined beyond repair" let me put it this way, when the emergency services called up to tell me my grandfather had been run over by a fully loaded gravel truck, several people hurt and 10000s of $ in damages caused my response was an indifferent "oh ok"

Ah sorry, I must have quoted the wrong person. I could have sworn I was quoting someone who said that standing up for yourself 'did' work. Reading over it again, I was wrong. I have edited my post.

I myself have had a fairly easy life. Some bullying for being different -light violence and namecalling-, different being physically fit and very violent which caused me to lack friends, which then made me turn to videogaming. That changed after a treatment which turned me neigh-pacifist. Now im just wierd for being on the internet all the time causing little bullying through the start of highschool -No violence, everyone keeping distance-... Now I have a few friends but compared to the norm the social-life is a dead-end.

Doctors and teachers alike have wanted to Diagnose me with everything from Autism to Depression but with no success (Truly I'm happy for that) Due to the lack of partying causing concerns amongst the classmates I 'was' forced to attend several psychiatric sessions which ended up being more about me conversing with the psychologist than him trying to find out what was wrong. In the end he just said that I was too mature for my age (Must be all that time spent in the basement of the escapist. Makes you more mature I-kid-you-not) And since then, apart from another single case of now a consultant trying to get me to take a test for autism. I have been free of those minor annoyances.

 

[GaryH]

I don't have time to read this entire thread so I apologise if this has been covered already.

As someone who was bullied for 7 years straight, I can tell you that there is no "dealing with it". That's not even an option. If you are told, every single day, by the vast majority of your peers, that you are worthless, you eventually start to believe it. As I said, I was bullied for 7 years, but in actual fact I am still bullied today, almost a decade later. I have internalised the bullying and I now do it to myself. This happens automatically and without any conscious thought, I can't just think it away. I have come on a long way and continue to improve every day but when people talk about emotional scars they are being literal. Bullying stole years of my life from me. I do not forgive my bullies or justify their actions by saying that they gave me a thicker skin. They did not. I am significantly weaker for it and I may never be the confident, capable person that I would have been otherwise.

Bullying causes real, permanent damage and to say that someone can "just deal with it" or somehow ignore it is beyond ignorant. The victim has this damage done to them at no fault of their own, they can't unbully themselves any more than you can heal a black eye by pretending you weren't punched.

 

[charge52]

Not reading the entire thread but I think you can always 'deal with' bullies. Don't let idiots get to you, as simple as that. If someone is fucking with you to the point that you even consider taking your own life, walk up to them and punch them in the throat. Don't be afraid of conflict, I've yet to read a story in which somebody committed suicide that couldn't have been avoided had the victim fought back.

Really, just "don't let them get to you", really? Are you that fucking stupid? It is not that easy, that is the equivilant of going to a clinically depressed person and telling them to "just cheer up", it isn't that easy. Not everyone has great self esteem, not everyone was raised in a way that made them able to just brush things off, for some people the extremes bullies will go to is just too much for them. Oh, and guess what, not everyone in the world enjoys punching people in the throat! What about pacifists? What if someone hates pain so much because they have been bullied, that the though of hurting someone makes them more miserable than being bullied?

Spoiler

Oh, you've yet to read one? Well how about I tell you one? He was your normal kid, the only obvious difference if you looked at him would be how pale he was, being a pair of red eyes away from being albino. About halfway through the year a new kid moved to the school, and a few new people were moved to some of the same classes as him, they decided to attempt to make his life miserable. First they tried making fun of him about being pale, which was as you can predict useless, he and his friends( 4 people) always made jokes about it, so he naturally took it as one. This upset them, so they started insulting various things, in an attempt to find what upset him the most, soon enough they learned his home life was... shit. His dad had died in a car accident 3 months earlier, and his brother was a barely recovering drug addict. So they taunted him about this, and when they could his friends tried to help. They told teachers of course, but none of them did anything. Now we reach the point of the story where everything goes to hell. See he was mad enough about all the insults, so mentally he wasn't built up, more easily knocked down than humpty dumpty, and they continued to insult him until one shouted something along the lines of "Your brother only took drugs because he couldn't stand having such a peace of shit for a brother!". This visually got to him, his fists clenched and he looked like he was about to scream. So what happened? He fought back naturally, why else would I tell you this? He told them if they don't shut up, he was going to keep attacking them until either they are dead, or he dies of exhaustion. He hits one of them, and quickly they are caught by, you guessed it! One of the teacher who was "on top of the problem", he accused the victim of starting it, they had more people so she believed them, and then when he got back from suspensions they continued to mock him. He couldn't fight again, he hated doing it once, and his friends decided they would do something. They told them much the same he did, and they all got into a huge fight, which ended in everyone being essentially beaten the crap out of. They all got in trouble(even the bullies, they had to make an example), but they only got suspended, his friends got expelled. It got worse, and fast forward a month when our story ends. Now I think you know how this story ends, but I'll give hints for anyone who can't figure it out, it involves a note, a knocked over chair, and a rope.

 

[TheDoctor455]

Its

snip

There is a difference between a mild teasing and bullying. Look calling someone fat is ok as long as its in good fun and you are not doing it repeatedly. If you get called fat every day for 4 years straight your going to be affected as a person. Thats bullying. Thats what the big deal is.

Thanks for the spell check. Appreciate it.

There's a great quote by Nancy Reagan that goes along the lines of "not letting others affect how you feel". I may not be the smartest tool in the shed, but that idea goes a long way.

Oops that wasn't suppose to be there. That just text I didn't delete my bad. I don't do that spell check revising thing.

I agree 100%

Trouble is, that idea only goes so far.

Unless you train yourself (or have someone else train you for years), you simply can't manage your own psyche well enough for that concept to be truly effective.

Sure, consciously, you might manage that... to a degree (how many people do you know that can always perfectly control how they feel about anything?).

But subconsciously? People have no control over that. And it is in the subconscious where all of the bullshit people spout at you is internalized.

Well... I do recall blowing up on people after repressing an inner rage from being bullied so yeah its probably not the best idea. But putting your emotions on your sleeve seem to just welcome more bullying.

And I'm probably the end result of a more successful attempt at burying one's emotions for extended periods of time.

Now... I have trouble maintaining any emotion other than anger or depression for too long. And I've forgotten how to emote properly. (if I ever had any idea to begin with, the point being that the timing for showing my emotions is no longer there... and neither are the subtleties of showing emotion)

Because of this, I have a great deal of trouble relating to other people.

In the end... not worth it.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

The OP is right. lol at the strawman arguments in response to OP, 'no one deserves to be bullied'. Nice try.

Care to elaborate on how the OP is right? Is it the victim blaming? Or the inferred cowardice of putting pressure on the victim rather then confronting the bully? I mentioned this earlier already, but if your strong enough to stand up for yourself, what's stopping you from standing up for others?

lmao. the first thing I do in my initial post is criticize the strawmen arguments in response to OP. and then the person that challenges me uses a strawman argument. 'hur dur, he thinks it must be the victim's fault because he thinks standing up to bullies can sometimes be the right thing to do'

Apart from having no backbone of course.

what's stopping me from standing up from others is that sometimes they're in... oh i don't know... a different location to myself.

The irony of the OPs position is that his "logic" equates to bullying anyway. He assumes that the act of bullying stems from a fault in the victim and is merely exploited by the bully. That the victim has an inherent flaw and it's their responsibility to sort out. He forgets that bullying can in fact induce this flaw. A bully can whittle down a persons will until they become incapable of standing up for themselves, which in turn, emboldens the bullies actions.

The irony of your position is that you criticize OP for bullying and challenge him, making you the bully.


^I seriously think calling you a bully is ridiculous, but is equally ridiculous as your assertion that he is a bully. Anyway...

What's more he forgets that bullies are RARELY individual threats, but instead a group of peers who derive pleasure from tormenting an individual. These are bullies that initiate and incessantly pursue aggressive/oppressive actions towards the victim. But we also have another sort, the ones who sit on the sides and let it happen, feeling some smug satisfaction or sense of superiority over the victim.

You, and the OP, are the latter.

Boy, you don't know a thing about me. So don't pretend you do. I've probably done things that you wouldn't have the courage to.

This logic makes him (quite blatantly) unsympathetic to victims of bullying and ultimately belittles the struggles of said victims. Given the right situation, I wouldn't be surprised if he would harass someone or physically intimidate them himself, whether that person is deserving of it or not. You see, he has already convinced himself that the bully is not the problem, but the person with no courage to rebel against the bully is. So he would think all he's doing is giving the poor sod a taste of real life, rather then being completely objective about it and seeing that he's just being a fucking dick.

don't call the OP a fucking dick, please. I don't appreciate this bullying behavior.

What you said is basically a strawman argument anyway so I'll quickly say that you're a manipulative over assuming individual who believes what he wants to believe.

As I said earlier. If you actively promote opposing bullies, then why the fuck don't you act as you preach? Are bullies only a bully if they are bullying you? No. Then why not stand up to bullies on principle?

Oh yeah, the aforementioned absence of a backbone might be why.

who says I don't? You might as well go stand in a field and scare off crows because this man of straw is overwhelming.

You agree with the OPs sentiments that people should stand up for themselves... but at the same time the OP is promoting a draconian, and highly flawed, approach to bullies. Bullies aren't just school yard ruffians who like to punch stuff. There is an entire spectrum of bullying and only a fraction of it is physical abuse. Social platforms like Facebook have also drastically altered the way bullying works. People aren't just being punched up or jeered, they are being tormented.

It can be inferred from the OPs language and his logic that he thinks we are all cut from the same cloth, and because he could handle one type bullying on his own (I doubt it btw, I bet he had support in some way or form), he figures everyone else is just being wimpy and the media/politicians are being overly PC or sensationalist (a grain of truth to that, but the OP is actively devaluing the strife of victims, based off of less then virtuous mediums).

He also assumes that the only avenue of counter bullying is confrontation. It might work on a school yard, but as the OP establishes outside of school and in the real world, the playing field is entirely different. "Bullies" in those environments aren't the lugheaded bruisers we see on TV and the means in which they degrade people are far more vicious and clinical. Even if someone does physically attack you in the real world, chances are they won't be using their fists.

I'm not challenging the OP. The questions I threw out were clearly rhetorical. ALso, I mucked up some phrasing. I didn't mean to say you and the OP ARE bullies, but that you are another sort of person who adds to the problem. I did say, that given the right situation, your (OPs specifically, but you have already agreed wholeheartedly) macho superiority complex could result in you targeting and tormenting someone who may or may not deserve it... since you already agree that people should stand up for themselves, and that confrontation is the only solution, it's not your problem if someone can't handle teasing or physical intimidation.

I'm pretty sure the OP can handle a few harsh words and a angered opinion. He is after all a completely awesome and self made man. Though I must commend you for standing up for him. That's all I'm trying to preach here. So, from this point on I will cease the verbal jabs.

Just to clarify, I was intentionally trying to goad the OP, and you, into properly explaining your logic, or at least open you to an alternative opinion. The OP seems to hold himself to a standard that others should follow and I wanted to break that narrow logic. You merely nodded and agreed. I'm honestly not sure which I think is worse. Logical fallacies have a use in some cases.

You still haven't explained your view on this, instead fell on discrediting me and my argument without submitting your own. All I have to go on is my own belief as neither you or the OP have offered anything substantial to work off of. There are others on here who have agreed with the OPs sentiments, but elaborated on it. Those opinions I agree with to an extent. The OP, and by extension you, have not elaborated on anything and assume your logic is obvious and/or universal.

I'm not going to have a dick measuring contest with you. You probably could have done things more courageous then me, but that doesn't make your perspective more valid, especially if you hold it as a standard to judge others.

I hate refocusing a subject onto my own problems, because it feels like I'm fishing for sympathy. Forewarning: I don't want your sympathy (not that I expect it) nor do I want to "move" you with my own troubles:

Spoiler: wall of text

I have been bullied (no shit right), but it wasn't the conventional bullying you and the OP assume is the only type of bullying. This was something I couldn't confront. Heck I wasn't even aware of it... it was just routine for me, a daily dose of "reality" as the OP would probably put it. I was degraded, belittled, tormented and manipulated daily for 20~ years. The bully had complete control over me and even had my respect and love.

The bully was my Mom. The realisation never hit me. I had massive self-esteem issues for most of my life. Despite having good friends, being good in school, having no one in particular who actively hated me and being a talented artist, I had no confidence in myself. I was into sports, but gradually faded out, gained weight and became reclusive during my teens. All this stemmed from daily verbal abuse I grew up with. In my mums eyes, I was a fat, lazy, selfish, ungrateful, and ultimately just a "typical" man. Yes, my mum was a man hater. She projected her insecurities onto me, and vented her own strife at me, because I didn't know any better.

The reality of my situation only came to light when I flunked a course I had a lot of interest and investment in twice and sought counselling. During this time realisations were springing up from everyone in the family. My Dad left her shortly afterwards leaving mom to wallow in her spite. She took that and fuelled her anger. I was suddenly a homewrecker and bully. Yup. I was suddenly a bully. At this point I was aware of my situation and I reacted, be blasting her with all my anger and frustration. Now my mum doesn't make a peep in my direction unless I initiate a conversation.

The sad thing is, I don't hate her, and I don't believe she hates me. I feel guilt now for confronting her as I feel like I may have been the hair that broke the camels back. Dad had left her, but I was stuck in the house trying to keep some semblance of peace. My mom became volatile and belligerent, sometimes charging into my room and shouting at me because she thinks I was talking behind her back with dad. She tried to drive a wedge between my sis and I and our dad by claiming he cheated on her (dad left after she cornered me and started calling me a bully, at which point I had a breakdown). As a result of counselling and support from friends and family I managed to build up some courage and finally stood up to her. I just wish I didn't have to confront her at all.

I couldn't have stood up to her on my own, since it didn't even register that she was a problem. I just assumed that I was the useless sack of flesh she saw in me.

If your curious as to why my Dad didn't stand up to her. Well, he didn't see the issue either. In fact, he was also bullied and tormented, and like myself just assumed mum was right about him. He would call her out when she used harsh language on me or tell her to back off when I started having frequent freakouts.

Despite all this, despite having grown significantly in the last few years in terms of confidence and esteem, I sitll struggle with bouts of depression and crippling social anxiety. What really screws things up is that I refuse to just ignore mom and have been actively trying to patch things up with her.

But what would have happened if my life was a little different? What if my Dad was also abusive, if I didn't have friends and I didn't see a counsellor. What would I think of myself if I didn't find my passion for drawing and art? I sank very far even with the care and consideration of others. If they were absent how low could I have gone?

The point is, my case of bullying wasn't overt and obvious like a schoolyard knucklehead. If I confronted her (Which I did at certain points in my life) she would blast me as being a bully and feel vindicated in degrading me even more. No one would tell her off, since she was just being a strict mother (on the surface). It was long and protracted expeirence, sinking deep into my psyche and subverting my thoughts so that they would work against me at every aspect of my life. To the outside world our family was fine, I was just a wimpy kid with no spine, while in reality I was pushed to the floor and being kept there by an oppressor.

I only broke free as a result of the support others gave me. Left to my own devices I feel like I would have either sunk into a deep depression or perhaps even snap.

People should not be left to stand on their own. Yes it should be a trait we strive for, but we exist as a social creature for a reason. The strong should cover the weak. People who can take a hit should take the hits of people who can't. People with power to intervene should do so for people with no power of their own. That's all I'm trying to say.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

lol at you for trying to deny that there are bullies in the world, and/or that standing up to them can be the right thing to do sometimes.


At least in a workplace perspective, telling on them is the best thing to do, sure. But on a non professional level, you can't tell on somebody for being mean to you, (unless they harass you to the point where you can get an actual restraining order).

See the bit I emphasized? I actually don't disagree.

I'm not gonna say that you should NEVER stand up for yourself or that it never works. Because sometimes it does. If there's only one bully or a small number, and they're just doing it for fun (or they're grade school bullies), then it'll work. There was one jerk in grade school that stopped picking on me after I dodged a punch that made him split his knuckles on the fence, and I told him to get lost since his aim was pathetic. SO yeah, I'm not saying it never works

But when you have a bully (and his friends) who only gets MORE nasty when you try to stand up for yourself, or when the ENTIRE SCHOOL thinks you're "a little pussyfag who jerks off in class and deserves to get mocked all day every day" due to stupid false rumors being spread all over the place, how the hell do you "Stand up for yourself" short of showing up with a sledgehammer and breaking someone's arm with it or doing some other giant display of "FUCK WITH ME AND DIE"? Which some of us are incapable of doing unless we snap and go psycho, and go against everything that makes us who we are?

I'm not saying that we can (or should) restrict kids from teasing or doing some light roughhousing and stuff. THAT you can't kill off, it's too prevalent and basically natural. And it's not that bad anyway. THAT, kids can grow from and get over. But full on social warfare and isolation, or getting beat up constantly? That shit doesn't fly in the adult world, why allow kids to do it? It messes up a kid's psyche and can scar them for the rest of their lives.

 

[DugMachine]

With kids being expelled nowadays for even defending themselves I don't think that's even an option anymore. I mean yeah if they're beating on you fight back but don't go picking fights with bullies just to "stand up for yourself".

Telling teachers, parents or just flat out ignoring it are the best options kids have nowadays. Back in my day I did stand up for myself and gave some beatings just for verbal abuse and in return I got the crap kicked out of me by the bully and his friends. Now as an adult I realize how stupid that was. If they're not touching you there is no reason to get all physical and even then try to ignore it or tell someone else.

 

[voltair27]

With kids being expelled nowadays for even defending themselves I don't think that's even an option anymore. I mean yeah if they're beating on you fight back but don't go picking fights with bullies just to "stand up for yourself".

THIS. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

I was suspended for defending myself from some asshole who wanted to fight. I had not instigated anything, I had simply been minding my own business when this guy tries to punch me. I block it and several other punches he threw, and go on my merry way. Next thing you know, we're both in trouble for fighting.

The zero tolerance policy is idiotic and needs to be repealed. Delf-defense is a completely valid defense in court, so it should be usable in school situations as well.

 

[Vegosiux]

Well I suppose next time I get mugged in the night I should "deal with it", as opposed to what I did last time (call the cops, the wussy stoolpigeon that can't stand up for himself that I am! Shame on me, telling the cops...)

No, it's not different, it's the same principle. If harm comes to you through actions of someone else, you're not expected to keep quiet and "suck it up, grow a spine". In school, on the street, at work, anywhere.

 

[Madgamer13]

...snip...

Greets!

This thread is massive, so I am responding to your original posting directly, andrewfox. Bullying is recieved in many different ways by many different people. From the way you have described your experiences of bullying and how you stood up to it, you have a more 'old school' outlook on bullying, which is to beat the bully, for lack of better terms.

It can be considered that times are very much different between a new generation versus an older generation of school pupils, since in one brief era bullying was seen as another feature of a school of which students had to learn to overcome to fit into a possibly cruel world. Nowdays there is serious discussion on who's responsability it is to handle bullying, as in a previous generation it would be argued that a student had to overcome, now schools and parents in particular say that the institution should be responsible for the behaviour of children.

This is an after effect of a change in schooling culture, which is reflected in the idea of responsability as a whole and relates to many more things than just bullying. The american media may also focus on examples of bullying for their own agendas, or that it may make good news when they happen to have nothing to fill their portfolio. As such, bullying portrayal in media is merely like vultures picking at a corpse, occassionally uncovering an unpleasant event or individual in the process.

Ultimately, this new way of seeing bullying as a problem to be stamped out, instead of a hurdle to be overcome, is actually a concequence of the children of yesteryear expected to stand for themselves and not wishing the same troubles upon their own children, which everyone else of this particular schooling era feeds from, like how a bully beats your face for not giving them your lunch money.

As for my examples of bullying, I did get into a few situations where I was bullied, but it didn't last long once I began to 'deal with it'. Usually involving my shoes and high drops from the school building. Thankfully, after I moved schools, I didn't have to deal with anyone trying to test my patience.

What do I think of bullying? It is merely another behavioral type that can be observed, of which there can be interesting reactions. One particular concept applicable to bullying is that one way of handling bullying is never intuitive for everyone. Indeed, 'standing up to' a bully may actually be counter-intuitive to a child, since they may actually wish to not take responsability for their problem and will run to their mommies to protect them.

I dont think there is anything wrong with this, as long as there is some resolution to the percieved issue.

 

[MakerofMysteries]

Since I have neither the time nor the patience to read every post in a thread that's currently 8 pages long, I may just be reiterating the arguments of those who came before. If so, apologies.

Glancing at some points, it's clear that there's been a fundamental misunderstanding. When OP said kids needed to know how to deal with bullying, he/she didn't mean to just put up with, but rather how to SOLVE it. Not the issue as a whole - like the issues of murdering and raping and thieving, it can never truly be "solved" - but rather how to handle it, combat it, if you will.

Key rule that I've learnt from bullying; bullies bully because they think it is fun. It gives them a sense of power. If you just lay down and take it, they'll only continue, because then you're an "easy target". Vis a vis, as OP said, you need to stand up for yourself.

Sure, you can use your fists. Most schools (in Europe and in the States) would probably look down on it and punish you, the victim, in equal measure to the bully. For teenagers, I understand; they can really hurt one another. But for kids? Nah, if the only way for them to settle an issue is to have a fight, then let it be so. Not everyone's intelligent and reasonable, especially not at that age. Some six-year olds punching at each other might "communicate" more efficiently that way. We're only monkeys dressed up in costumes, after all.

However, it is generally not a good way. As a rule, violence solves nothing. Accidents can so easily occur and a lot of people, kids or teens or adults, are too weak to fight. So what're we all taught to do instead?

"Tell the teacher."

Now, this can swing both ways. On one hand, the teacher can be real helpful and shrewd and handle the situation well. On the other, they can be completely incompetent.

Don't get me wrong; they can be the nicest of people and really good at their chosen subjects, but I can from personal experience say that not all teachers are good at social interaction. Some can't even control a classroom, standing like meek little sheep in front of the whiteboard, practically scared of their students. We've all had such teachers. And now they're supposed to take on bullying? Good gods, what a trainwreck.

Mind you, sometimes all the victim needs is some attention, someone who cares. A lot of people have awful parents, or just normal ones, working hard and unable to see what's really going on. In such cases, some support can be very valuable. But it won't stop the bullying. Very few teachers - or people in general - are capable of such a feat. So how to "deal with it"? How can you help yourself?

That, is a valuable lesson; helping oneself. You SHOULD never have to end up in such a situation, where the only one who can or will help you is you alone, but it is almost certain that you will. Life isn't fair; people certainly aren't fair. You can try to make the world a better place and hope that everyone will be nice to one another; you can build magnificent castles out of air, but sometimes it's good to have a solid piece of ground to stand on.

So; what can YOU do? Not much really, except one thing; bullies bully because they think it's fun. It gives them a sense of power. Why?

Because they can see that you are suffering from their torments, that they're getting to you. Schadenfreude, skadeglädje; happiness derived from others' misery. Your pain gives them joy and a sense of power. So what to do?

Try not show that it affects you. Make it boring to bully you; "That is no fun, it doesn't get to them, let's pick on this kid who goes into a rage, or the one who cries, or the one who curls in a corner, numb from apathy. simply does not give a fuck." They can only hurt you if you care about what they say. Unless they hit you, of course, but then you can always file legal charges.

Well, that was one big wall of text. Hope I didn't offend anyone, if I missed anything, let me know, etc.

 

[DugMachine]

THIS. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

I was suspended for defending myself from some asshole who wanted to fight. I had not instigated anything, I had simply been minding my own business when this guy tries to punch me. I block it and several other punches he threw, and go on my merry way. Next thing you know, we're both in trouble for fighting.

The zero tolerance policy is idiotic and needs to be repealed. Delf-defense is a completely valid defense in court, so it should be usable in school situations as well.

Yup I agree. I used to think school boards just lacked common sense but now I know they're just trying to protect their skins and uphold the policy. They're not stupid, they know that the little shits who bully deserve it but when the bullie's parents are usually the ones who make the most noise and try to get the news involved they pretty much have to follow the policy.

It sucks but I don't think it will change any time soon. :/ I'm glad this policy wasn't around when I was in school. I would have been expelled and probably put in jail if I was a bit older for what I did to this kid.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Here's the thing, I don't really believe bullying exists. Ask someone if they're a bully and they'll say no, sometimes even if you call them out on their bullyish behavior. Why? Because in everybodies own mind they're the hero of their own story.

which proves...absolutly fuck all, thats a given fact. Hitler didn't see himself as a monster, you want to tell me he wasn;t a monster?

[quote/]Furthermore, what exactly equates bullying anyway? If someone doesn't want to be my friend because they find me annoying, am I being bullied than? When the higher ups at my job conspire against me- professionally- to keep me from being promoted, is that bullying?

oh for-
there is a sliding scale, certain group behaviours..such as leaving the weird kid out or "joining in" on the general consensus of "omg that kids such a loser!" or whatever is passive bullying at worst...and I admit we are all guilty of it in some form or another, theres always that one annoying kid whom you only hang out with out of obligation, from my expereince it comes from insecurity and wanting to "fit in"

bullying is generally ATTACKING another person consistantly and unfairly, bullys (the worst kind) arent normal happy well-adjusted kids, they are assholes, also the group mentality thing when taken to a ore extreme level (like lets beat up this kid because of his pokemon backpack)
[/quote][/quote]

No I'm just saying, anti-bullying campaigns won't work on bullies because people generally aren't self-aware enough. Everyone believes that everything they do is justified. Everyone believes theyre good people. These campaigns aren't going to stop and make someone examine their behavior to see if they're being a dick or not.

Maybe it's just the part of the country I'm in, I've never seen someone get assaulted consistently on a regular basis during my high school tenure. There were fights, sure, but that's different. Two different parties actually in conflict agreeing to mutual combat, and there was always circumstances surrounding it beyond "I'm Sid from Toy Story 1! I'm Going to go beat Andy with a lead pipe and take his toys! *Air Guitar*"

 

[verdant monkai]

Yea, it sucks, I get that. But in life, bullies will always be around. In fact, you can still find them in the grown up world. .

I have no idea how you thought this would go down well on a site so chock full of militant liberals.

I agree with you though. I was bullied in primary school for having glasses and an eye patch to correct my squint, I was also pretty immature and a bit annoying. I cried almost everyday I came home from primary school for about 3 years, and begged my parents to let me stay at home. People who commit suicide because of this sort of thing annoy me, little shits should do what I did, GROW A FUCKING SPINE. I was mocked for being bad at football which I hated, but I still played it everyday and eventually got a little better at it and earned some semblance of respect. The harsh treatment taught me what was socially acceptable, and what made me look like a weirdo. If I hadn't been bullied, and had been home schooled I would probably not have had half of the friends I now have at the end of highschool. Because I would still be odd and have no idea what people thought was socially acceptable.

All these anti bullying campaigns are a waste of time, kids should be told to stand up for themselves more like I had to. The reality is in the real world there are no bleeding heart teachers to yell at people who flat tire you in the corridor. In the real world no one gives a shit and you have to take care of yourself, bullying will always be there and prepares you for the stark reality of life.
It's all very well to join hands and glower at the miserable types, and say the world would be a better place without that sort of thinking. But the reality is life isn't a f*cking fairy tale, and many people will not accept you for who you are. Some people just enjoy being cruel, and no amount of anti bullying policies can correct them.

Well done for saying what you think. Not everyone is mature enough to accept your opinion whilst disagreeing with it, it seems.