Bullying: Stop the complaining.
- Thread starter andrewfox
- Start date
No, it's just my personal experience. I wouldn't be in a position to tell another person that unless I've experienced their environment and observed. I don't know, I had bad shit happen to me and had issues with people. I never looked at as "oh they're a bully", I always looked at it as just bad shit that happened to me. There was always a reason for it, either I got off on the wrong foot with them or my personality grated on them.Vault101 said:
Bad shit happens to people, all the time. That I believe. Bullying however, implies (to me anyway) one is being attacked verbally/physically/whatever by an aggressor simply for existing and THAT I have a hard time buying unless the amount of Sociopaths have increased in this world. People do things for reasons, right or wrong as they may be. It's more complex.
Why would it be odd? He won the fight decisively, and sent a warning to everyone else not to question his rule.BloatedGuppy said:
It's not the act of violence that dissuades the bad guy into leaving you alone. It's fear and humbleness.
It's not just you stand up the guy and he walks away. You have to get him and everyone else to doubt the reality they all believe.
Horse shit. Sorry, but that is just pure horse shit.Eclectic Dreck said:
At no point is rape, assault, bullying or anything of that nature justified. The mindset here is the same about having a fancy car and showing it off. Yes, it does increase the risk of being noticed and thus increases the risk of shit happening to it, but that in no way means that victim tossed their rights away.
See, this is the problem with blaming the victim in anything, it removes the blame from the ones committing the action itself and in doing so, attempts to justify the behavior. Often this is done by comparing what they wore or did with social norms and pretty much spells out the idea that if you deviate from the norm, you deserved what you got. Sorry, but no.
Any crime done to someone is still a crime. That is the way our justice system works. While a victims behavior may increase the risk, that behavior does not mean the victim wanted the result to happen, knew it would happen or were as perfectly aware of all the social retributions that would occur for not fitting into the norms.
If I want to walk through a street at night, by law and right I should be able to, safely. Now flaws in the system means there is an increased risk, and ignoring that increased risk seems to be what you are saying. But at no point is it the victims "fault" for any mugging or rape that occurs, as the one doing the actual action is still the rapist/thief/bully/whatever. They are the ones picking their targets or locations, making them unsafe in the first place. All you do here is justify their decisions and pretty much say nothing more then "well, doesn't mess with me, so not my problem". Plus, in terms to bullying, most kids bullied are socially awkward to begin with, so any sort of threat or whatever they give off is unintentional. No, you are looking ta it wrong, it isn't so much them making themselves look like targets as bullies picking them out to be ones. Would you blame a person who was pickpocketed for not having their wallet chained up as well? Or, since bullying relates to school-age children so well, lets just take this to the logical step and combine your points here to the truly horrible implications you hint at. That is right people, children who are raped must also be doing something to make themselves targets, right? I mean, hell, given how some kids get both, and can even get both at around the same age, well, I guess that means whatever they are doing (you know, without full or any knowledge that they are), is somehow showing themselves to be a victim so well they are inviting all sorts of bullying, harassment, social ostracizing and yes, even rape. Sorry, but looking through the lens of your logic here makes me feel like quiet the abhorrent monster. And no, the difference between child rape and bullying is not suddenly a point to draw the line when you already brought up rape itself and all cases mentioned here are caused by some asshole exerting themselves over a victim and yet you feel it is in part the victim's fault.
We should be able to walk down alleys at midnight. Silly example, but still. Otherwise, what is the point of a law that is so weak there are places it doesn't apply in our own country? What is the point of having the freedom to do so when you can't protect yourself from the criminals or assholes of the world and so don't out of fear of "inviting" problems.
In terms of verbal and online bullying, I fully agree.
The idea of Sticks and Stones is absolutely valid and I have yet to see a convincing argument that says otherwise.
However, when it comes to physical abuse, you are very, very wrong.
Settling bullying with a fight may work once in a while for some people, but it's silly to think all bullying can be solved with violence.
And even if it COULD be solved with violence, a vast majority of physical bullying happens to people who CAN'T fight back for one reason or another.
The idea of Sticks and Stones is absolutely valid and I have yet to see a convincing argument that says otherwise.
However, when it comes to physical abuse, you are very, very wrong.
Settling bullying with a fight may work once in a while for some people, but it's silly to think all bullying can be solved with violence.
And even if it COULD be solved with violence, a vast majority of physical bullying happens to people who CAN'T fight back for one reason or another.
You're constructing a straw man. I'm not saying they deserve anything. In fact I explicitly stated the opposite. What I'm saying is that when the victim has a mechanism to avoid the problem, not pointing it out because they're a victim is a failure.runic knight said:
In the case of a rape victim, there are often ways the victim could have avoided the situation entirely. That they did not does not mean they intended or desired the rape - simply that they had a means available to avoid it. Standing on a hill and crying about how it isn't fair that precautions need to be taken is an excellent sob story that accomplishes nothing. A victim is a tragedy but that doesn't mean that pointing out how they can avoid such things in the future is wrong.
The same is true of bullying. In many cases there is plenty a bullying victim can do to resolve the problem. The bully is still the villain - that doesn't mean the victim needs to continue being a victim.
I was a shy extremely heavy kid growing up ive been bullied all my life first time I fought back at age 10 I had my head smashed into the ground by 4 guys rendering me unconscious no student was expelled.
At age 14 I fought back again and was stripped half naked and kicked for over 20 mins before a teacher stopped it again no students were expelled or suspended.
At age 16 having worked in Burger King for 2 years and begging my parents to take out a loan I was moved to a Private mixed school that cost 6000 Euro per term.
That school saved my life I can honestly say I would not have lasted much longer if things kept up the way they were.
Most of the time bullying cant be stopped and when people fight back things get worse.
Am I a better or stronger person because of what happened to me? HELL NO!
People who bully are among the lowest form of scum if I ever find that any of my friends were ever involved in bullying they are no longer my friends simple as.
At age 14 I fought back again and was stripped half naked and kicked for over 20 mins before a teacher stopped it again no students were expelled or suspended.
At age 16 having worked in Burger King for 2 years and begging my parents to take out a loan I was moved to a Private mixed school that cost 6000 Euro per term.
That school saved my life I can honestly say I would not have lasted much longer if things kept up the way they were.
Most of the time bullying cant be stopped and when people fight back things get worse.
Am I a better or stronger person because of what happened to me? HELL NO!
People who bully are among the lowest form of scum if I ever find that any of my friends were ever involved in bullying they are no longer my friends simple as.
One kid was walking into class. A well known bully ran up behind him, and slammed his head into the door frame. It was loud enough to make the 10 or so students sitting in the class jump. The teacher witnessed this happen.
So he turned around, and fought back. He stood up for himself. He had clearly been assaulted, and hit with a blow that could have given him a concussion.
The teacher broke up the fight. Went to the office with them. Even defended the bullied student, since she had witnessed the assault.
But it didn't matter that the kid had been hurt. It didn't matter that a teacher had witnessed it, and spoke on the student's behalf. What mattered was that he retaliated. Official policy is zero tolerance. Both students were suspended for a week.
The problem isn't that these victims are rolling over and letting themselves being bullied. The problem is that bullying is ignored by the school system. No self defense is allowed, and any incident is slapped on the specific student and then swept under the rug, rather than solved. Schools are more concerned about their clean record than their students. And bullies know that they can get away with it. That's the problem.
Saying "grow a backbone" is not an answer to bullying. In the real world, people have the right to defend themselves, and the right to see their criminals and harassers punished by law. Not so in many schools. And that's why there are suicides. That's why its in the news all the time. Because no one will defend these kids any further than just telling them not to defend themselves.
So he turned around, and fought back. He stood up for himself. He had clearly been assaulted, and hit with a blow that could have given him a concussion.
The teacher broke up the fight. Went to the office with them. Even defended the bullied student, since she had witnessed the assault.
But it didn't matter that the kid had been hurt. It didn't matter that a teacher had witnessed it, and spoke on the student's behalf. What mattered was that he retaliated. Official policy is zero tolerance. Both students were suspended for a week.
The problem isn't that these victims are rolling over and letting themselves being bullied. The problem is that bullying is ignored by the school system. No self defense is allowed, and any incident is slapped on the specific student and then swept under the rug, rather than solved. Schools are more concerned about their clean record than their students. And bullies know that they can get away with it. That's the problem.
Saying "grow a backbone" is not an answer to bullying. In the real world, people have the right to defend themselves, and the right to see their criminals and harassers punished by law. Not so in many schools. And that's why there are suicides. That's why its in the news all the time. Because no one will defend these kids any further than just telling them not to defend themselves.
Bullying is really nothing worth worrying about as long as the parents are there to support the kids. Frankly, the kids need to learn to take a beating and definitely know how to dish one out. If someone bullies you, you knock their ass to the floor and make sure that you knock 'em hard enough to where it's not too serious, but that they've learned their lesson. I've had several instances throughout my life where people tried to bully me, and every time it happened, all I had to do was beat 'em back far enough to know not to mess with me. As for what I think about it overall, it's a problem that's existed since the dawn of man and it's not going away anytime soon. You've just gotta teach the kids to hit for the nads, nose, and neck to be able to protect themselves.
First: a clearer line between "being a dick" and "being a bully" needs to be drawn for this sort of discussion. Being a dick is things like calling people fat, or dumb, or retarded. Being a "bully" is a different beat entirely. Sending texts or posting on Facebook or whatnot about someone, completely unsolicited, for no reason. Harassing them over whatever the topic happens to be. Etc etc. It's more of a chronic "I am regularly victimizing you, and doing it as much as I can" than it is "you're fat, trolololololol". Petty insults and whatnot, yeah, people do need to learn to deal with it. But people constantly assailing you with messages about your own worthlessness? That's crossing a goddamn line, unless the person being victimized is, like, Hitler or someone.
I'm gonna let loose a bit. The mentality of "just deal with it" is a goddamn immature attitude. It's shifting blame and responsibility onto the person being victimized--because clearly, they should have "just dealt with it" and not let it affect them. Aside from this being, on a basic and abstract level, the same thing as blaming rape victims for being raped (i.e., both shift the blame to the person being targeted, and away from the person doing the targeting), it's just plain stupid. In the real world, if someone makes an inappropriate comment in the workplace, they can be fired. If someone keeps harassing you with messages through Facebook about how you're "a fat stupid *****" or "a worthless moron who should just kill themself," in the real world, you report that shit to the police and they (hopefully) give the person a visit. The point is that in "the real world" the same behaviors that bullies often partake in are absolutely not tolerated. So if the argument is that people need to prepare for the real world, why would they need to learn to deal with it all, stone-faced, and just not let it get to them? It's honestly better preparation, I think, to teach them to report the offenses to the relevant authorities.
Also, telling people to "just deal with it" might work well and fine for well-adjusted adults or unusually mature middle/high schoolers. But the truth of the matter is that people in middle school and high school and whatnot are not the pillars of rational thought and self-confidence that the comment implies they should be. Frankly, people at that age--which was me but a few years ago--have a very, very hard time just shutting out what other people say and think. Especially when the harassment often takes the form of attempting to invade someone's social and private life with utter filth.
So, to put it short, I think the idea that people should just "suck it up and deal with" bullying is absolute garbage. It seems to rely on a false assumption that people--and let's remember the age bracket typically in question with bullying--even can do that, because it's oh so much more complex than "you just do it". It shifts blame and responsibility to the people who are being hurt by this, and away from the people who are so often actively seeking out ways to cause someone pain. It's unrealistic in preparation for "the real world"--that sort of shit is not tolerated in any sensible real world situation, so why should it be tolerated amongst the younger age brackets who can be most negatively affected by it? Why should they be expected to already have thick skin, when they barely know anything about the world or about people in general?
This is all not to say that people shouldn't develop some degree of thick-skinnedness. There are tons of examples of petty bullshit people need to be able to deal with, and it sounds like that might have been what OP was talking about--a few insults here or there, general non-targeted dickery, etc. If you lose it every time someone calls you a name, that might be (depending on the circumstances) something to look at changing. But "bullying" as I understand the term goes beyond that, into the territory of harassment and continued, serious emotional and verbal assault/abuse (and perhaps physical, as well). Shrugging your shoulders and saying "it'll always be there" or whatnot and telling people to just deal with it is an infuriating way of addressing the situation, because it misses the whole damn nature of the situation in the first place.
I'm gonna let loose a bit. The mentality of "just deal with it" is a goddamn immature attitude. It's shifting blame and responsibility onto the person being victimized--because clearly, they should have "just dealt with it" and not let it affect them. Aside from this being, on a basic and abstract level, the same thing as blaming rape victims for being raped (i.e., both shift the blame to the person being targeted, and away from the person doing the targeting), it's just plain stupid. In the real world, if someone makes an inappropriate comment in the workplace, they can be fired. If someone keeps harassing you with messages through Facebook about how you're "a fat stupid *****" or "a worthless moron who should just kill themself," in the real world, you report that shit to the police and they (hopefully) give the person a visit. The point is that in "the real world" the same behaviors that bullies often partake in are absolutely not tolerated. So if the argument is that people need to prepare for the real world, why would they need to learn to deal with it all, stone-faced, and just not let it get to them? It's honestly better preparation, I think, to teach them to report the offenses to the relevant authorities.
Also, telling people to "just deal with it" might work well and fine for well-adjusted adults or unusually mature middle/high schoolers. But the truth of the matter is that people in middle school and high school and whatnot are not the pillars of rational thought and self-confidence that the comment implies they should be. Frankly, people at that age--which was me but a few years ago--have a very, very hard time just shutting out what other people say and think. Especially when the harassment often takes the form of attempting to invade someone's social and private life with utter filth.
So, to put it short, I think the idea that people should just "suck it up and deal with" bullying is absolute garbage. It seems to rely on a false assumption that people--and let's remember the age bracket typically in question with bullying--even can do that, because it's oh so much more complex than "you just do it". It shifts blame and responsibility to the people who are being hurt by this, and away from the people who are so often actively seeking out ways to cause someone pain. It's unrealistic in preparation for "the real world"--that sort of shit is not tolerated in any sensible real world situation, so why should it be tolerated amongst the younger age brackets who can be most negatively affected by it? Why should they be expected to already have thick skin, when they barely know anything about the world or about people in general?
This is all not to say that people shouldn't develop some degree of thick-skinnedness. There are tons of examples of petty bullshit people need to be able to deal with, and it sounds like that might have been what OP was talking about--a few insults here or there, general non-targeted dickery, etc. If you lose it every time someone calls you a name, that might be (depending on the circumstances) something to look at changing. But "bullying" as I understand the term goes beyond that, into the territory of harassment and continued, serious emotional and verbal assault/abuse (and perhaps physical, as well). Shrugging your shoulders and saying "it'll always be there" or whatnot and telling people to just deal with it is an infuriating way of addressing the situation, because it misses the whole damn nature of the situation in the first place.
God DAAAAAAMN, please tell me the fucker got arrested.GunsmithKitten said:
If he didn't then I hope he accidentally sits on a cheese grater and grates his privates clean off.
Based on my experience, I feel there is some merit to your views, however lots of things have changed since I had my bully problem. I stood up for myself after the third parties that I turned to proved to be not so helpful and would take chronic inaction.
-During my elementary school days was when I experienced the the peak of bullying in my life. Two kids in my class would tease me and I would constantly inform the teacher of their teasing and nothing would happen. It got to the point where I slammed one of the them into the solid painted over cinder-block-like wall. I ended up getting detention for my actions, however I was able to make my case to the principle during that detention where I was able to make some progress in rectifying the problem with the two bullies.
-Another example, at the time, my mother babysat children. One of these children was around six grades higher than me would constantly tease me at home and show no respect for my belongings. I turned to my mother for help and she would always tell me to just "ignore it". One day I had threatened to hit him with a Replica Rifled Musket(It was real metal barrel and stuff with a hard wood stock and the little orange thing at the end of the barrel) if he didn't stop teasing me and such, but he went home before I could make good on my threat. The morning after, he started up again and I hit him with the butt of the rifle. Of course I was yelled at and confined to my room for some time, but after that he was a little more respectful of me and my things.
Looking back, I can't say my decisions were bad, seeing on how my decisions then have made me who I am today. But again, lots of things have changed since my experience, bullying is in the spotlight and I would like to think third parties that bully victims turn to, are less likely to take inaction. I feel that there is nothing wrong with turning to a third party for help. But I still feel that people who are bullied have a right to defend themselves, should they have to. I wish we lived in a world where there was no need to turn to violence, but unfortunately we still haven't made first contact with the Vulcans yet.
-During my elementary school days was when I experienced the the peak of bullying in my life. Two kids in my class would tease me and I would constantly inform the teacher of their teasing and nothing would happen. It got to the point where I slammed one of the them into the solid painted over cinder-block-like wall. I ended up getting detention for my actions, however I was able to make my case to the principle during that detention where I was able to make some progress in rectifying the problem with the two bullies.
-Another example, at the time, my mother babysat children. One of these children was around six grades higher than me would constantly tease me at home and show no respect for my belongings. I turned to my mother for help and she would always tell me to just "ignore it". One day I had threatened to hit him with a Replica Rifled Musket(It was real metal barrel and stuff with a hard wood stock and the little orange thing at the end of the barrel) if he didn't stop teasing me and such, but he went home before I could make good on my threat. The morning after, he started up again and I hit him with the butt of the rifle. Of course I was yelled at and confined to my room for some time, but after that he was a little more respectful of me and my things.
Looking back, I can't say my decisions were bad, seeing on how my decisions then have made me who I am today. But again, lots of things have changed since my experience, bullying is in the spotlight and I would like to think third parties that bully victims turn to, are less likely to take inaction. I feel that there is nothing wrong with turning to a third party for help. But I still feel that people who are bullied have a right to defend themselves, should they have to. I wish we lived in a world where there was no need to turn to violence, but unfortunately we still haven't made first contact with the Vulcans yet.
As countless others have said, sticking up for yourself isn't much of an option anymore.
Starting when I was nine, I got picked on for a variety of reasons. I hated showering, I had bad skin from early puberty, my dad died, and I had always been socially awkward. It started out as name-calling and teasing, but it was enough to destroy my self-esteem. Over the years it escalated into hitting, shoving and tripping. I tried to retaliate, to fight back, but it's hard when so many people hate you, and you're the only one who hates all of them.
But I could take the physical violence compared to the covert tactics employed by other girls. Girls do not usually fight face-to-face. There was one girl at my school who had it out for me as soon as she saw me. I had never spoken to this girl, let alone see her damn face, but she hated me from the moment she knew my name. She simply decided that I was worth her time and effort. She did everything she could to make sure everyone else hated me as much as she did. She started awful rumors and sabotaged any of my attempts to make friends. I spent all of middle school feeling alone and hated.
I eventually escaped it all. At the end of eighth grade, I moved across the country. I began high school with a fresh start, but I was cold and distant to everyone I met at my new school. Each student was just a potential enemy, a potential bully. I put on a pretty good show of being some quiet nutcase. It took until the end of my junior to actually make friends, and most of them had similar situations to mine.
This isn't a problem that's going away. My nephew is fourteen, but he's small for his age. He has to attend cyber school because he got beat up so often when he went to public school. When he attempted to stick up for himself, he was just laughed at and smacked again. There are definitely teachers and other adults who are willing to help kids through these problems, but sometimes it's difficult to trust anyone. Other times, kids feel like if they reach out to someone, their bully/bullies will just come down harder.
Oddly enough, my biggest bully was my brother. He used to chase me up to my bedroom with a knife. It became second-nature to lock my door as I was slamming it shut. He started rumors about me and would join in when people made fun of me. About a year ago, I was on the phone with him and we got on the subject of his shitty behavior towards me while growing up. He told me he had boasted to his wife that his constant teasing and bullying had caused me to be a stronger person, and that now I simply go through life letting insults bounce off me. I calmly told him that his bullying was one of the many things I discussed with my therapist on a regular basis. My brother said nothing. I think up until that moment, he truly believed he had helped me. I wonder how many bullies think they were just toughening us up.
Starting when I was nine, I got picked on for a variety of reasons. I hated showering, I had bad skin from early puberty, my dad died, and I had always been socially awkward. It started out as name-calling and teasing, but it was enough to destroy my self-esteem. Over the years it escalated into hitting, shoving and tripping. I tried to retaliate, to fight back, but it's hard when so many people hate you, and you're the only one who hates all of them.
But I could take the physical violence compared to the covert tactics employed by other girls. Girls do not usually fight face-to-face. There was one girl at my school who had it out for me as soon as she saw me. I had never spoken to this girl, let alone see her damn face, but she hated me from the moment she knew my name. She simply decided that I was worth her time and effort. She did everything she could to make sure everyone else hated me as much as she did. She started awful rumors and sabotaged any of my attempts to make friends. I spent all of middle school feeling alone and hated.
I eventually escaped it all. At the end of eighth grade, I moved across the country. I began high school with a fresh start, but I was cold and distant to everyone I met at my new school. Each student was just a potential enemy, a potential bully. I put on a pretty good show of being some quiet nutcase. It took until the end of my junior to actually make friends, and most of them had similar situations to mine.
This isn't a problem that's going away. My nephew is fourteen, but he's small for his age. He has to attend cyber school because he got beat up so often when he went to public school. When he attempted to stick up for himself, he was just laughed at and smacked again. There are definitely teachers and other adults who are willing to help kids through these problems, but sometimes it's difficult to trust anyone. Other times, kids feel like if they reach out to someone, their bully/bullies will just come down harder.
Oddly enough, my biggest bully was my brother. He used to chase me up to my bedroom with a knife. It became second-nature to lock my door as I was slamming it shut. He started rumors about me and would join in when people made fun of me. About a year ago, I was on the phone with him and we got on the subject of his shitty behavior towards me while growing up. He told me he had boasted to his wife that his constant teasing and bullying had caused me to be a stronger person, and that now I simply go through life letting insults bounce off me. I calmly told him that his bullying was one of the many things I discussed with my therapist on a regular basis. My brother said nothing. I think up until that moment, he truly believed he had helped me. I wonder how many bullies think they were just toughening us up.
Verbal harassment is something that you can shield yourself against and is something that, in addition to telling an authority figure, is something that someone should emotionally brace themselves against. There is a very fine line between someone trying to cause you harm with constant degradation and harassment and you simply being offended.
Physical bullying, on the other hand, I believe is completely unacceptable. The moment a bully takes, breaks, or harms something of yours/you in any way I believe it is vital that you seek out as many authority figures as you can.
Going to authority is NOT being a coward or not dealing with it yourself. Trying to fight back rarely works out for the better and usually ends up with both of you in trouble.
The key point in the issue, however, is learning to talk to authority figures. Many children are intimidated by authority because their parents see it as the school's job to teach their kids/doctors job to keep their kid healthy etc. and do very little to show their child that in order to get what you need you need to learn how to communicate with authority figures. In this day and age those who are willing to ask favors from authority, are assertive, and are inspired by those with more power/talent than them are the most likely to succeed. (It's why most manager positions are not given to a long term employee but, instead, to those who apply for it. Even if the manager has never worked with the company before.) Aka those with a little bit of entitlement.
If you try and deal with a bully yourself, both of you will probably end up hurt.
If you go to an authority figure and demand help then you not only command respect from the authority figure but also solve your problem without any violence. That respect can, in turn, be used for additional favors.
Physical bullying, on the other hand, I believe is completely unacceptable. The moment a bully takes, breaks, or harms something of yours/you in any way I believe it is vital that you seek out as many authority figures as you can.
Going to authority is NOT being a coward or not dealing with it yourself. Trying to fight back rarely works out for the better and usually ends up with both of you in trouble.
The key point in the issue, however, is learning to talk to authority figures. Many children are intimidated by authority because their parents see it as the school's job to teach their kids/doctors job to keep their kid healthy etc. and do very little to show their child that in order to get what you need you need to learn how to communicate with authority figures. In this day and age those who are willing to ask favors from authority, are assertive, and are inspired by those with more power/talent than them are the most likely to succeed. (It's why most manager positions are not given to a long term employee but, instead, to those who apply for it. Even if the manager has never worked with the company before.) Aka those with a little bit of entitlement.
If you try and deal with a bully yourself, both of you will probably end up hurt.
If you go to an authority figure and demand help then you not only command respect from the authority figure but also solve your problem without any violence. That respect can, in turn, be used for additional favors.