You're backtracking to please the PC crowd? Not necessary, because they can get offended about anything, regardless of how insincere or insignificant it is.
Bureaucracy-Em-Up
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
Oh great....Now I have to figure out what the Q is. Queer? Nah, seems redundant. Queen? Don't think anyone even uses that term anymore. Quirple? No...I think I just made that up. It's gotta be some group of hyper-sensitive, self-important weirdos, but I just can't think of it.Mr F. said:
Do trans people exist? I guess, unless trans means something other than what I think it means.
As for their thoughts and opinions, they can have theirs all they want. It's when they force them on others that people get annoyed. When they attempt to censor people's creativity because they feel they're so important they should be immune from comedy.
Remain victimized? Victimized by what? A joke? That wasn't even directed at them? Seems they chose to be a victim. They chose to be offended, and then chose to be outraged by it. They could have taken it for what it was, in the context it was, and moved on. But they didn't. They're special little snowflakes and they need special considerations. "Everyone else can be made fun of, just not ME!."
Again with the victimized. Offended people just love being victims. Ironically puts them in a place of power. They can feel self-righteous and outraged until people apologize, the apology being the payoff. It's the final display of their power (assuming they aren't trying to get someone fired, which they often are). Because, of course, the way you get people to be tolerant of you is by shutting them up.
And as for literal victimization, I've already proven they're clearly not the most victimized group in society. In fact, they're even less victimized than white, straight males it seems. Unless you have some new stats to contradict me, which you probably don't because you don't really strike me as a "stat" or "fact" sort of person.
Well first, this hypothetical person was obviously not a woman. It was a man. The penis was indicative of that fact. Feel free to argue this with me. I'm well versed in arguing fact against people with nothing but imagination, emotions and wishes.
And it is hypocrisy. And narcissism. You're absolutely fine at laughing at humorous and insulting things directed at everyone else, but as soon as one thing hits too close to home you're up in arms about it. "It's ok to make fun of THEM. But ME? How could he? I'm OUTRAGED."
Hah, sociology. Of course. Like I said, definitely not a fact person.
I honestly didn't know. But you're also right in that I don't care. And I'm still not entirely sure why it's insulting.
I notice you didn't comment on the actual statistics though, despite being confronted with them in the same post where you claim trannies(trans?) are the most victimized group. Interesting.
No, they dont. For my analogy, the wood corresponds to a person, and whether they are a chair or a pencil corresponds to human sex. The wood would be being human i guess, which is something i think is immutable at this moment, due to our defining human characteristic of intelligence, something cats lack at our capacity. And the point was that the pencil is a pencil, regardless of what material it is made out of, just like a women is a women, regardless of their composition.Abomination said:
Why do you keep on arguing this point anyways? I come back with the same refutation, and you always ignore it. Its annoying.
The reason it might be seen as offensive, is cause it conotates a pornographic term. The word tranny is used as a common porn term for any male to female trans-women, and to be compared to a sex-worker, which arent thought of very kindly, isnt very nice.Plunkies said:
It be a kin to calling a women over 40 a MILF, or father a DILF, whichever, it just renders them to be only a sexual object.
And as for them being the most victimized, i mean i dont wanna play the "who has the worst life" game, and im not sure if they are the MOST vitimized, but they are victimized, just like everyone else. And when enough victims stand up for something, people tend to listen to the merit of their words, and i guess in this case, it came out on their favor.
well, if we would live in a perfect society, there would be no problems in that. everybody would make fun and everybody knew that the jokes are fun, and not enforcing harmful roles and ideas which could kill you.Ickorus said:
maybe you see the difference.
yathzee:changed one word because he understood something important.(If your think that your right to have fun is more important than the right of other people to feel safe and accepted, than you're an asshole. Maybe your right would be equal, if the world was fair. but as long as the world isnt fair and being tg means that you have to fear for your own safety, the emotions of people who HAVE to fear for their safety, job and home is more important that your right to laugh about a lame joke.) people cry like the world ends.
trans-people:have to deal with systematic discrimination, harassment, abuse (almost) every day, dont get taken seriously and get hurt casually. Should not have to fear more hate and injustice just because some derps want to laugh about 5 seconds in an internet-video which could easily use another joke as well.
In a perfect society everybody could be the butt of jokes and its okay, because they would be the butt only sometimes, they wouldn't be the butt because of their existence, they wouldn't be in personal danger just because they are what they are.
this is no perfect world and using your privilege to be shit to people who getting shit everyday for just being, get discriminated systematically by law enforcement,
(as late operated transsexual in a prison? or as pre-op transsexual? better kill yourself. I mean, there are enough people who do this already because of the shit they get everyday.)
you can loose your flat or house if you are tg. if you´re gay too. and your job too and there is nothing you can do. people are free to utter hate at you, are free to see your existence as illness which has to be burnt out and are free to vocalize that.and they do it, every day. Add the jokes at your expense and be happy, shut up, the privileged want to laugh. funny ay? you will laugh so hard. not)
Privileged people using lazy jokes which reinforce the shit opinion of society which leads&supports discrimination, harassment and ostracising of people who do nothing wrong, but to exist in the opinion of other people who will never have to fear this problems. (but some scream even louder if their privileges might get taken away.(e.g in the US:discrimination of Christians? inexistent. but they cry because they cant do whatever they want. sounds familiar?)
FIRST we have to ensure that all people are safe, have the same rights and chances, medical help etc. Then if all people are equal, we can treat them like they were.
If that means, supporting one group more, than that is the right thing to do. because we(as humans in groups) ARE NOT TREATED EQUALLY. And acting like we were, means giving people privilege and changing nothing except giving ones the advantaged they already have and denying other the safety they need. This does not solves itself.
@lysander:you know that jackson had a illness which changed his skin-tone? you cant bleach yourself that hard. but, well, this gives much about society which makes fun of a person having an illness(even if it were bleaching-shows how much racialized oppression makes impact. making fun of that=being shit.)
Regarding the first complaint, yeah, I can say Yathzee is justified in dismissing that one. I always find people getting outraged about opinions expressed by fictional entities, especially by FICTIONAL FASCIST DICATORSHIPS, ridiculous (unless the writer himself is a fascist and openly want us to sympathize with the fictional fascists, in which case I say that outrage is a natural and fair reaction).
Regarding the second complaint, Yathzee's reasons for actually taking that seriously, is quite sound. If your joke have a completely unindented side-effect, you are in your good right to change your wording. Despite what some posters seem to think, "Well, if you can't make fun of one specific group then you can't make fun of anyone!" is not really the issue here and never was in the first place.
Regarding the second complaint, Yathzee's reasons for actually taking that seriously, is quite sound. If your joke have a completely unindented side-effect, you are in your good right to change your wording. Despite what some posters seem to think, "Well, if you can't make fun of one specific group then you can't make fun of anyone!" is not really the issue here and never was in the first place.
Freedom of speech is irrelevant, I'm not suggesting government action and that's the only thing it applies to. I don't fucking get why people think freedom of speech is "NO CONSEQUENCES NO MATTER WHAT I SAY" , all it means is you won't face legal action. It doesn't mean I can run into a black owned restaurant yell "LOOK AT ALL THE NIGGERS, I WONDER HOW MUCH FRIED CHICKEN AND CORN BREAD I CAN GET HERE" at the top of my lungs and not get kicked out. It's not about freedom of speech, it's about not being a massive dick who makes people think you have something against transexuals when you don't, and since it's more LIKELY that any person is transphobic and doesn't give a fuck than say, a hardcore racist and doesn't give a fuck you need to be more careful about it.DerangedHobo said:No, fuck that, I'm not going to give transexuals preferential treatment because some people look down on them and beat them with sticks and/or murder them, no. It's either ok to make fun of everything or nothing, so I can say 'hey guys, what do black people and Christmas tree lights have in common? THEY BOTH LOOK GOOD HANGING FROM A TREE!mike1921 said:' But I can't say 'Lol look at that freak with a dick'. That makes no god damn sense, that is twisted. No, fuck no, it's not 'freedom of speech, except for x person because they need to be pandered and feel special'.
Also: You're a very bad comedian. Messaging is a very important part of being an intelligent comedian. That's why there's a media outrage when Daniel Tosh jokingly says it'd be funny if a heckler got gang raped and not at everyone who has ever told a rape joke. Because his joke was stupid enough and worded in such a way that it made it seem like he just doesn't care about rape. Right before that he told a rape joke and only that one heckler gave a fuck because it didn't make anyone feel like he seriously didn't give a fuck about rape.
"lol look at that freak with a dick" doesn't have a message besides "haha, transexuals". Yahtzee's old one just took "transexual women who still have penises aren't women" as the premise and ran with that. Which, you know, he probably wouldn't change if he actually believed it, but he obviously doesn't.
But...they do go through evaluations, if a psychologist, who is certainly more qualified than you are doesn't believe you're genuinely transgendered I"m pretty sure you can't even start the hormones.Speksi said:
The difference is Carlin was doing it on purpose. Normally when jokes have an offensive point it's on purpose. I think religion is fucking ridiculous , so I"m fine making jokes with that as a premise, because I genuinely mean it and genuinely mean to poke at them.
But we don't live in a truly tolerant society, we live in a society where transwomen are barely accepted as humans let alone women. Also: I'd hardly consider what he did making fun of transexuals since that was obviously unintentional
I love it when people say offensive things by accident, people who seriously mean them hail them as champions of their cause. Why are you assuming yahtzee shares your opinion, when he decided that even implying he shares your opinion is so heinous it's worthy of his first apology and edit of a joke ever? Like, does apologizing mean the man has no integrity? People have been offended by him before and he didnt' feel the need to issue an apology.
I dispute it, I do not ignore it.Rosiv said:
And you're right, in your analogy being "wood" would be the same as being human... but there are different TYPES of wood that also can not be changed. Oak, teak, redwood, willow, ash - all have different properties and, as I said earlier, you can't change what type of wood it is. You can dress it up, paint it or whatever you want but it'll always be oak wood trying its damnedest to look like redwood.
Something just occurred to me.
People jokingly call me a lion because my hair looks like a mane. I also have nicknames stemming from famous lion characters (Simba, for instance). I also bought a lion suit for a Disney-themed costume party once, and I actually quite like lions, and cats in general.
Am I actually a lion, instead of being a heterosexual human male that I thought I was? Should I start demanding people refer to me as a lion from now on, and only communicate by growling? Shit, I might have to start moving on all fours and hunt for antilopes to eat. Might be a difficult thing to do in Finland, but such is life for a lion I guess.
If I were to go around acting like a lion, telling people I'm a lion because I think I'm a lion, calling them entitled and privileged because I can only communicate by growling, do you think people would just buy it, or possibly call me mentally deranged? Would the LBTBBQ community (or whatever it was) be on my side, or agree and call me mentally deranged? Would it be beastiality if I had sex with a female lion, despite the fact that it'd only be a mental-lion having sex with another lion? What if I attacked and killed a pet dog? Or a child? It's only me acting out on my hunting instincts after all, you can't judge us lions with your puny human laws.
Check your privilege LTQBTQBBT community, us lions have long been far more oppressed than you entitled humans ever will be.
People jokingly call me a lion because my hair looks like a mane. I also have nicknames stemming from famous lion characters (Simba, for instance). I also bought a lion suit for a Disney-themed costume party once, and I actually quite like lions, and cats in general.
Am I actually a lion, instead of being a heterosexual human male that I thought I was? Should I start demanding people refer to me as a lion from now on, and only communicate by growling? Shit, I might have to start moving on all fours and hunt for antilopes to eat. Might be a difficult thing to do in Finland, but such is life for a lion I guess.
If I were to go around acting like a lion, telling people I'm a lion because I think I'm a lion, calling them entitled and privileged because I can only communicate by growling, do you think people would just buy it, or possibly call me mentally deranged? Would the LBTBBQ community (or whatever it was) be on my side, or agree and call me mentally deranged? Would it be beastiality if I had sex with a female lion, despite the fact that it'd only be a mental-lion having sex with another lion? What if I attacked and killed a pet dog? Or a child? It's only me acting out on my hunting instincts after all, you can't judge us lions with your puny human laws.
Check your privilege LTQBTQBBT community, us lions have long been far more oppressed than you entitled humans ever will be.
Your getting too into the analogy, its a fault of them in general, so my bad for starting it. But if the wood = human flesh, then there arent different types of human fleshes, unless you wanna talk about skin color, and then ya, but there are stains to change that, so color is moot too, for wood and humans. To say that they cant change, is something i just see as ignoring the fact that they change in general.Abomination said:
I wasn't going to comment until I read this and the first thing that came to mind was, you have got to be fucking kidding.Ickorus said:
Straight, white, men run this country. They are the vast majority of politicians writing the laws, running the corporations, and controlling the media. You're not being oppressed in any way.
The reason equal rights people, like myself, "disdain" straight, white men, is because straight white men were the reason non-whites had separate drinking fountains and had to sit in the back of the bus. They're the reason women couldn't vote until 1920. They're the reason gay people still can't get married in most states today. And just recently it's straight white men who passed a law to force doctors into lying to women and giving them vaginal ultrasounds(a medically unnecessary procedure)before they can get a legal abortion. Those actions and many others are what piss people off, not just because you were born a straight, white male.
Btw, I'm a straight, white man.
I still fail to understand what was so offensive to transgenders in the original joke to actually merit an apology from Yahtzee.
The transgenders weren't the butt of the joke. The butt of the joke was a guy so in denial about his homosexuality that the only way of him being comfortable about having a dick in his mouth is for it being stuck to a woman. Yes that's the joke - that particular guy craves dick. The joke doesn't openly bash gays, transgenders, anyone, a pre-op transgender is simply a part of the context, an extra if you will. Nowhere is it implied that a pre-op transgender is not a woman. It's not even an issue. The laugh is nowhere at the expense of the pre-op transgender person.
I think I can literally pick any ZP video at random and find at least five jokes one could get truly offended about and which would be much much harder to find redeeming qualities about. Which is why this entire issue just made me sad - I hate intolerance and close-mindedness and it's sad to find them being flaunted by people supposedly living for tolerance and open-mindedness. Hypocrisy is always ugly, no matter who is the one sporting it, but in this case you are not even allowed to point at it, from fear to be instantly called out as a homophobe/racist/whatnot.
The transgenders weren't the butt of the joke. The butt of the joke was a guy so in denial about his homosexuality that the only way of him being comfortable about having a dick in his mouth is for it being stuck to a woman. Yes that's the joke - that particular guy craves dick. The joke doesn't openly bash gays, transgenders, anyone, a pre-op transgender is simply a part of the context, an extra if you will. Nowhere is it implied that a pre-op transgender is not a woman. It's not even an issue. The laugh is nowhere at the expense of the pre-op transgender person.
I think I can literally pick any ZP video at random and find at least five jokes one could get truly offended about and which would be much much harder to find redeeming qualities about. Which is why this entire issue just made me sad - I hate intolerance and close-mindedness and it's sad to find them being flaunted by people supposedly living for tolerance and open-mindedness. Hypocrisy is always ugly, no matter who is the one sporting it, but in this case you are not even allowed to point at it, from fear to be instantly called out as a homophobe/racist/whatnot.
Is your comment serious? Cause then no, unless you could facilitate the change from human to lion well enough to convince some people. And at the moment that's out of surgeries realms. For transgender people, they CAN pass as women/men, it just bears on when they can transition, which is often halted by public pressures, and money.Speksi said:
People always seem to do the human to animal, male to female comparison, but it isnt apt. A lion is vastly different from a person, they have different brains completely, completely different body structures, and lions dont have our advanced brains. As for the differences between men and women, there are notable ones, but those are more of averages. Like on average, a man is stronger than a women, ect... So if a male were to transition to female, they would just be a unusual women, a tall, husky, or big women, but still a women, since the differences become to that of a non fertile female, who might be not too attractive. As for a lion, there arent any lions that can think on our level. I mean i guess you could argue gorillas, but they cant use speech as we do, so the human - animal comparison doesnt work well.
I guess it depends on how you define gay, if its simply liking dick, then it would be straight to date/have sex with a FtM male, since most FtM dont do the phalloplasty due to its cost/lack of effectiveness.baba44713 said:
And FtM transmen can pass pretty well as men
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lbakslrDSd1qas0uco1_500.jpg
The same with MtF women, pre-operative,
http://topnews.in/files/images/Bailey-Jay1.jpg
MtF pre op women have a hard time finding straight relationships because of their penis, having them date gay guys isnt too great either, for to be gay implies same sex, and a transwomen wouldnt want to see herself as anytype of male. Its a argument in semantics i guess, what is it to be a women, what is it to be gay..ect..ect..
And i mean the reason people are complaining about it is how advocacy for your image/cause works. If you just sit on your hands and dont make a fuss, you let people characterize you, they kind of HAVE to say something, to put themselves in the light they want. Im sure if Yahtzee made a ****** joke, and people didnt like it, if he didnt recant to a degree, his career would be boned, like kramer from Seinfeld.
Well yeah, but to change a tree into something else it involves a lot of sawing, burning, treating, grinding and many other sorts of physical forced change.Rosiv said:
But the analogy fails in its entirety because people aren't plants... and also because sex can't be changed like one would turn a tree into a chair. In fact the comparison is simply absurd.
Is the term "chick with a dick" for a pre-op MtF offensive? I mean, you're still calling them a woman and it's not as though the truth should ever be considered offensive.
So it's all about the looks, is it? What happened to "I DON'T FOLLOW YOUR FASCIST BEAUTY STANDARDS"? I thought that was part of the ultra liberal agenda as well? I find it hilarious how being able to deceive people into believing you're a woman makes you a woman. Wasn't it about you feeling like a woman? How's that any different from me feeling like a lion, and if it is about the looks, most of the trannies I've seen look like men with makeup and cheap wigs, so you'd have to be either wasted or blind to mistake them for women. Also, the penis kind of ruins the illusion as well.Rosiv said:
I find the remark about us lions not having an advanced brain highly offensive. Check your privilege human, I expect you to edit out all the offensive parts of your post. Us lions have long been oppressed, I thought you leftards would be the first ones to sympathize.
Well, maybe after I get the tumblr hipsters to turn it into the next flavor of the month you will.
And a man in women's clothing is still not a woman. It's a man in women's clothing. Until you post scientific evidence to support the existence of "transgender", both it and my translion conditions are figments of our imagination.
Btw, homosexuality is for men to be attracted to masculine traits in people, and for women to be attracted to feminine traits in people. Heterosexuality is for men to be attracted to feminine traits as nature intented. Sexual orientation is a completely different issue from gender, of which there are two: male and female, as defined by a) XY or XX, and b) reproductive organs.