Can an american explain me their view on their military?

[Truth Cake]

shouldn't having morals actually NOT make us raise giant armies and kill each other?

Stopped reading here. Go walk down a dark alley with your purse and high morals but leave your gun behind.

*deep sigh* First, I don't carry a purse; second, I'm a black belt and can defend myself in a dark alley.

Third- that's exactly my point, humans don't have the morals they claim that makes them better than animals, like I said many posts ago.

Yeah... way to completely miss the point of my argument-

*Deeper sigh, shakes head* At this rate I'll never get to sleep tonight...

You really didn't help yourself there anyways; what argument did you make? The fact that humans have no morals? I already argued that, try something else.

Humans that have little to no morals kill each other, and yet we claim to be better than animals becuase we HAVE morals, thus making us hypocrites and liars; animals aren't hypocrites and liars because they're much simpler and can't communicate well enough to utilize such ridiculous ideas (didn't explain that too well, I know), and since I interpret those as bad things, in my opinion humans are worse than animals, exactly like I said in my first post- thanks for helping me come full-circle.

Argue more if you like, you aren't going to convince me, and I'm not going to convince you, so you're wasing your time.

 

[UrbanCohort]

I'd completely support our military if it was defending the country from invasion, but our military is bombing, invading, and occupying other countries, which has nothing to do with keeping us safe or protecting our freedoms. I'd argue it makes us less safe, which I obviously can't support.

It might seem that way, but one little fact makes your argument slightly incorrect - they attacked first, and they most certainly will attack again if we leave them alone. Our presence in their country has everything to do with protecting the US.

 

[New York Patrick]

First, I would like to clarify something which has apparently confused you, despite being written in rather plain english: My standpoint IS that humans are VASTLY superior to animals, and to such a degree that it would be fallacy to place them together in a comparison (such as yours.) I do not claim that humans are perfect, flawless beings, but they are infinately more complexed than wolves, caribou, dolphins, falcons, bees, otters, etc.

At no point in my rather simply written paragraph did I contradict that thesis, so I am rather confused as to how you developed that impression.

Now... about your... "arguement":

Animals fight for their own survival because that is all they are capable of fighting for. They are, unlike people, unimaginative, incapable of developing anything close to a society by our standards, and more importantly, incapable of finding ALTERNATIVES to fighting in order to survive.

You seem to be rather hung up on this "fighting" thing, don't you? Did you notice that most of my arguements pointed out OTHER things humans do that animals don't? For a pacifist, you sure have war on the brain, don't you?

Ugh... at this rate I'll be up all night because I'm a stubborn ass and I need to argue with everyone who has a problem with how I think...

If humans are so superior to animals as you claim we are, WHY DO WE NEED TO FIGHT LIKE THEM? Just because we fight for more complex reasons than animals doesn't change the fact that we're still killing our own kind just the same, and apparantly thinking we're superior than animals at doing the exact same thing, but en masse.

I'm 'hung up' on fighting? Maybe this is a topic ABOUT fighting is why I'm thinking about why other people are fighting wars?

Alright, do yourself, me, my sanity, this thread, and sensibility a favour. Go to sleep, wake up tomorrow, and RE-READ MY POST. Maybe, just maybe, it will dawn on you exactly what I am argueing if you are better suited to actually read my post, and note just spout generic anti-fighting bits.

Maybe you'll notice that this thread is NOT about fighting, it is about what Americans think about their military, and that the only reason our DEBATE seems to be limited to the topic of fighting has something to do with you constantly jumping back to it, or limiting yourself to it.

I am going to assume it is because you are tired, and not that you are incapable of responding to the fact that I have continuously pointed out OTHER THINGS PEOPLE DO THAT ANIMALS DON'T. Maybe you will realize that my entire arguement IS that we do things on a greater scale then animals, therefor we are superior.

And maybe, you might realize that acting self righteous and scorning "those no good humans" isn't going to win you any favours on the internet, which was invented by, is run by, and is populated by HUMANS. And assuming you are not some sort of scientific miracle (no doubt a product of HUMAN effort and brilliance,) you are human to.

 

[peruvianskys]

I stopped reading at a certain point, so someone might have mentioned this, but...Vietnam.

When the soldiers came back, many were vilified. Literally spit upon, by hippies and the like. Mostly spoiled college kids. My father was in Vietnam, and he told me about this, and it was also documented that this happened.

Simply put, people learned the terrible things that the soldiers went through over there, and then to come home, only to be harassed, it was truly awful. Then consider that the soldiers were simply doing their jobs that many were forced into(conscription), people started to do everything they could to make up for it.

I did not explain this very well, so let me summarize it:

US soldiers went to Vietnam, went through absolute shit over there, came home and went through more absolute shit here from their fellow Americans. They also were not adequately supported by the government, in areas of health care and what have you.

Due to all this, if you are opposed to any war you MUST praise the fighting men and woman, or risk being compared to the people who treated returning Vietnam vets so poorly. Obviously if you support the war, you have to praise the soldiers who make it possible.

Now we would honor our soldiers regardless, but this is the main reason we are so gung ho for the modern soldier, it was truly a horrific thing the Vietnam vets went through.

This is a really important point that a lot of people didn't seem to note. The way vets from Vietnam were treated was really pretty douchey and it's made Americans wary of letting anti-war sentiment turn into anti-troop viciousness.

I think a lot of Americans just add "I support the troops but..." before every criticism of American foreign policy because of the taboo against being anti-military; it's like saying "No disrespect" or "not to be offensive, but..." in that it just softens the clearly critical next line. That makes a lot of non-Americans see us as ragingly jingoistic but really it's just a cultural thing and not a deep heart-felt "fuck anyone who doesn't love the troops" mentality. For most people anyway, there are definitely some crazy jingoists out there but about 70% of Americans (just a made-up figure but you know what I mean) have both an accurate view of the fallacies of American foreign policy as well as a basic respect for the sacrifices of the volunteers in our army.

I'm pretty heavily anti-war myself and I definitely don't support the military (or the troops, whatever that means). Either way, I think I'm in the minority on the far-left end of the spectrum.

 

[Jerubbaal]

I have a feeling that what I'm about to say hasn't been covered yet in this thread, but a lot of our respect for the military nowadays is a reaction to the completely disgusting treatment of servicemen during and after the Vietnam War. As everyone knows, it was an extremely unpopular war, but rather than simply opposing the war itself, protestors degraded draftees (who had no choice in serving) and said all manner of horrible things about them.

People realized how horribly they had treated our soldiers, and realized that in the future it would be better to oppose the war itself, and not the individuals called to fight it by their country. Movies like Rambo: First Blood went a long way to help push this idea. I don't think a lot of people who say they support the troops are sincere about it, but they're afraid of being lumped in with all the assholes who mistreated Vietnam vets.

That being said, I personally still think the Vietnam War was morally right, and I know for a fact that most of our stereotypes of Vietnam War veterans as crazy, homeless drunks is wrong. The book Stolen Valor goes into much more detail on this subject.

EDIT: nevermind, I see that someone already has brought up the treatment of Vietnam vets as a reason for this attitude.

 

[bootz]

American Corpations and media need the army to do What they want done. So they use propaganda and ingrain that the army is sacred and the biggest heroes of freedom ever. So you can't say anything bad about what the army is actually doing. It would be in bad taste to offend these heroes. That way the can invade countries(iraq) with no reason.

The other thing is that when a soldier dies its pretty much ignored. Super Freedom fighters never die.

 

[AkaDad]

I'd completely support our military if it was defending the country from invasion, but our military is bombing, invading, and occupying other countries, which has nothing to do with keeping us safe or protecting our freedoms. I'd argue it makes us less safe, which I obviously can't support.

It might seem that way, but one little fact makes your argument slightly incorrect - they attacked first, and they most certainly will attack again if we leave them alone. Our presence in their country has everything to do with protecting the US.

I suggest you do some research on our actions in the Middle East since the 1950's. We've been interfering in Middle eastern affairs for as long as I can remember and 9/11 was retaliation for our actions. It isn't a fact that they attacked first.

 

[Samurai Silhouette]

*Deeper sigh, shakes head* At this rate I'll never get to sleep tonight...

You really didn't help yourself there anyways; what argument did you make?

Stopped reading there. If you're too tired to see the point in that statement, go to bed. It's not worth the effort trying to explain at this moment.

 

[BabySinclair]

a. its Horrah, just a way to say sure,fine,good for you, etc, and we americans hold our military in the highest standard, aside from a few nutjobs aka Westboro Baptist Church.
We are thankful that they have risked their lives to keep us safe. We destroy anyone who says shit about the armed forces! They are war heroes each and every single one of them.

Personally, I think the war in Iraq is a massive waste of resources. But I will never, NEVER talk shit about the military, mostly the soldiers. They have my utmost respect.

These, may not agree with the mission but fuck if I don't support the troops at home and abroad. Been to the funeral of a former classmate, couldn't stand him while we were at school together, almost fought once. Took off about 20 min of a 2 hour trip on the interstate so I could make it to his funeral on time.

 

[astrav1]

Most of them, especially now, are putting their lives forward in the name of an ideal. It may be a bogus war and there are definitely bad guys in the military but overall they want the world to be democratically free. While a soldier's job is to do evil things for the most part, they are doing it for what they think is a good cause without a draft.

 

[PlasmaFrog]

Pretty much full of themselves.

I respect the military as a whole since they're the defensive backbone of this country, yet they often send the wrong message about war. Face it, the military is an industry, a business in some respect. So obviously, advertisement to recruit soldiers into a particular branch is the main focus.

War here is portrayed as a thing of honor and patriotism, when in reality, war is a thing of tragedy. Our country endorses this ideal so much that it's actually sickening in some cases, not to mention how war is often treated in video games, advertisement, and the media.

Yes, I agree, we should take pride in our country's backbone, but be knowledgeable about so power at the same time. Sadly, that's hardly the case over here.

 

[UrbanCohort]

I'd completely support our military if it was defending the country from invasion, but our military is bombing, invading, and occupying other countries, which has nothing to do with keeping us safe or protecting our freedoms. I'd argue it makes us less safe, which I obviously can't support.

It might seem that way, but one little fact makes your argument slightly incorrect - they attacked first, and they most certainly will attack again if we leave them alone. Our presence in their country has everything to do with protecting the US.

I suggest you do some research on our actions in the Middle East since the 1950's. We've been interfering in Middle eastern affairs for as long as I can remember and 9/11 was retaliation for our actions. It isn't a fact that they attacked first.

Okay, sure. We TRAINED THEM to fight against the Russians, and I suppose in retaliation for our sheer gall at helping them overthrow communist invaders they decided that killing tens of thousands of us would show us the error of our previously helpful ways. I'm not sure which one of us needs to brush up on their history...

 

[Gudrests]

Sorry for the weird title. Well obviously I am not american myself, and some people might find this post a little weird. I have been thinking about this for some time now. Well here is the thing;

Browsing pages such as 4chan.org, imgur and reddit.com, I find people making fun of basicly everything. Except one thing. The US Military. Everytime its about them it all about heroes, "oorah" (some kind of Marine slogan?) and thanks.

Being born in a country with conscription (Denmark), being in the military really isn't that big a deal. Was in the Army Fire Deparmtent myself. Many males of the danish population has been in the military for a certain amount of time, so the military isn't really that much of an romantic institution. It's just a job.

But during my travels last year in the US, and also on the internet, the military is almost sacred. Every word of criticism is met with harsh reprisals, and sorry to say so, but I just don't get it.

Anyways, what I am most curious about is why it is this way? It's not that I think anythings wrong with it, but I must admit that the praise and respect seems a bit excessive in my eyes. Being a hero (which americans use a lot when talking about their troops) in my country is something you have to earn through action. Not by just signing up.

I'm curious, so if any american browsing the site could spare a few minutes to tell me why they pay their respects, it would be much appreciated.

First off I have to thank you for asking the way you did. Most people either say Fuck the troops or Respect them. Also most people that ask normally ask in a manner that is just straight demeaning.

First the U.S military is voluntary. (well it is now anyhow) If you sign up you sign for one of a few reasons. 1. You feel the need to serve your country 2. No other opportunities in your area (if you look alot of the military is what we call corn fed as in from the midwest where its you become a farmer or the military) 3. Kind of a family thing. (dad did it grandpa did it)

Why do people regard our troops in such a high manner, well It's what they do. Where they go. They are by no means the heartless killers some put them out to believe. When you see a video of a sniper killing an enemy it's not because they are heartless and are happy they killed someone, It's because they finally got someone who has been shooting at them.

Most people also know that if you dislike what they do its not the soldier's fault. It's the politicians fault and there is no reason to yell at the soldier. Most every soldier even if they disagree with the order will carry it out to his or her fullest extent. Not all of them are heroes, But the ones that are went above and beyond to make sure someone else lived even if they died.

If I'm missing something just ask.

"Corn Fed"? Ouch, dude, I'm from Kansas!

But, seriously, I've found that most people joined the military because they really wanted to be a part of the military. Certainly there's a variety of hard luck stories but by and large most folks join because they really, really wanted to be a part of the military and everything that entails.

When I was in the DEP there was a number of kids my age from my local area, and we all agreed that our number one reason for joining the Marines was to be a Marine. Certainly there were benefits, financial and otherwise, but those were all secondary to that burning desire to be a part of the Marine Corps.

Of course, the Marines tend to play up that sentiment in a sort of "Do you think you can be us?" sort of way. The Army, I hear, tends to be more about "we have all these jobs!".

O GOD KANSAS!!! you have wheat not corn I am sorry. Marines is a little different on that fact. I don't know a marine who is a marine for any other reason than. I WANT TO BE A MARINE! PARIS ISLAND WAS FUN. I EAT BULLETS AND SHIT AWESOME!

 

[Truth Cake]

Alright, do yourself, me, my sanity, this thread, and sensibility a favour. Go to sleep, wake up tomorrow, and RE-READ MY POST. Maybe, just maybe, it will dawn on you exactly what I am argueing if you are better suited to actually read my post, and note just spout generic anti-fighting bits.

Maybe you'll notice that this thread is NOT about fighting, it is about what Americans think about their military, and that the only reason our DEBATE seems to be limited to the topic of fighting has something to do with you constantly jumping back to it, or limiting yourself to it.

I am going to assume it is because you are tired, and not that you are incapable of responding to the fact that I have continuously pointed out OTHER THINGS PEOPLE DO THAT ANIMALS DON'T. Maybe you will realize that my entire arguement IS that we do things on a greater scale then animals, therefor we are superior.

And maybe, you might realize that acting self righteous and scorning "those no good humans" isn't going to win you any favours on the internet, which was invented by, is run by, and is populated by HUMANS. And assuming you are not some sort of scientific miracle (no doubt a product of HUMAN effort and brilliance,) you are human to.

Did I ever call them 'those no good humans'? Did I ever claim myself better than every other human in my 'acting self-righteous and scorning'? Did I EVER say humans are totally incapable of doing good things like inventing the internet, the single greatest information-sharing accomplishment in human history? The answer to all those is, of course, no.

My first post was exactly what this topic asked of me- that being my opinion of the U.S. Army, I gave my honest opinion, someone argued against it, I argued against them, and it eventually escalated into... this, happens all the time, it seems.

You're ignoring the fact that there IS bad things that humans do by saying 'oh, but we did something good to make up for it!' The fact is that if we are so much better as you 'continually claim', we should be able to advance past the bad things we do to become better on the whole; if we stay where we are now, there will always be war and killing, but apparantly that's what you want as long as there's still 'other things' to make up for it.

I don't need sleep, you need to wake up.

 

[Ir0n Squid]

Bleh, I'm tired of arguing with so many people so ima stop responding to quotes now, quote me and argue further if you like, because I'm not going to convince you otherwise and you aren't going to convince me.

I must throw in my 2 cents here. Respond or not, here it comes:

First let me see if I'm on the right page. You believe conflicts (man vs man, lion vs. lion) are ok as long as the focal point of the conflict is survival. Either it be for food or some other resource, survival is ok. You disagree with conflicts over "nonessential", such as gold or oil. Right so far? General gist? I'll take your stony silence for a yes.

Now the 2 cents. I believe (therefore is of my opinion) that every human armed conflict, War, from the start of history to today has been and will always be about survival. Not survival for the individual, no sir. The survival of the Nation is what war is raged over.

Oil for instance is useless to a biological human being. He can't eat it, and he really can't use it to ensure his genetic line will continue. It's useless to him. But a nation can rise or fall because of oil. Gold is the same story. Useless to me biologically. But gold can bring wealth to a nation. In this case a county's very survival is not threatened but the rewards from this conflict go towards the betterment of the nation, increasing it's chance for survival.

I'm going to keep this short but just one more blurb before I return to the dusty halls from which I came. Two animals fighting -- be it lions, tigers, bears, etc. -- fight for one thing: To ensure that the best genetic line survives to the next generation. And nations do too. I like to think of the nations of the earth as being [giant amoebas]* that fight each other so that in the end only the strongest one will remain.

*Insert any organism. I think amoebas are cool. =D

 

[Truth Cake]

*Deeper sigh, shakes head* At this rate I'll never get to sleep tonight...

You really didn't help yourself there anyways; what argument did you make?

Stopped reading there. If you're too tired to see the point in that statement, go to bed. It's not worth the effort trying to explain at this moment.

Maybe if you didn't stop reading my posts so much, you'd see I already made an argument against yours a few posts ago.

I'm a stubborn ass, I'll admit it, I'll stay up as long as people argue with me- it's how I am, I have my faults, I know; at least I have the ability to admit it though, which some people apparantly lack.

 

[Hatter]

a. its Horrah, just a way to say sure,fine,good for you, etc, and we americans hold our military in the highest standard, aside from a few nutjobs aka Westboro Baptist Church.
We are thankful that they have risked their lives to keep us safe. We destroy anyone who says shit about the armed forces! They are war heroes each and every single one of them.

(Sorry if someone already mentioned this but there's already 5 pages)It's Hooah in the Army, Hooyah in the navy, and Oorah in the Marine Corps.

OT: The fact that it's a volunteer force has a lot to do with the respect that goes to most people who do volunteer.

I'm not particularly familiar with the history of Denmark, but The U.S. is a nation that was founded on war, and has participated in most major wars since it's birth, usually emerging victoriously, that, along with having perhaps the strongest and most well funded military in the world goes a long way in creating pride for our military, and by extension those who are apart of it.

With that said there is a large number of people within our military that deserve no respect what-so-ever.

 

[AkaDad]

I'd completely support our military if it was defending the country from invasion, but our military is bombing, invading, and occupying other countries, which has nothing to do with keeping us safe or protecting our freedoms. I'd argue it makes us less safe, which I obviously can't support.

It might seem that way, but one little fact makes your argument slightly incorrect - they attacked first, and they most certainly will attack again if we leave them alone. Our presence in their country has everything to do with protecting the US.

I suggest you do some research on our actions in the Middle East since the 1950's. We've been interfering in Middle eastern affairs for as long as I can remember and 9/11 was retaliation for our actions. It isn't a fact that they attacked first.

Okay, sure. We TRAINED THEM to fight against the Russians, and I suppose in retaliation for our sheer gall at helping them overthrow communist invaders they decided that killing tens of thousands of us would show us the error of our previously helpful ways. I'm not sure which one of us needs to brush up on their history...

We've been interfering in the middle East long before that. In 1953 America was involved in overthrowing the Prime Minister of Iran.

http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-cia-index.html

 

[TheDooD]

I respect them but I think quite a few of them have a GI JOE mentality when going in that they're gonna save the world. Yet the best is that they survive the bullshit their leaders put them through. Overall I feel sorry for them because a majority of people just don't give a fuck about them, but they're fighting for the bastards and have hope that they'll be treated like heroes when they return. Yet most just fade into darkness never to be remembered and their efforts in life really never spoken for since its classified. Then the poor soldiers have an extremely hard time getting back into civilian life. Most places won't give them a job because they're over qualified and if they came back injured in anyway its almost impossible for them to get let alone hold a job. The grunts have it hard risking their lives while their "superiors" stay FAR back and bark orders. Overall I have way more respect for the grunts then the leaders and pencil pushers, they're the real heroes.