Can an american explain me their view on their military?

[Truth Cake]

Actually, if you read carefully, you'll find that he AMENDED his statement from being "better" to being "more than" animals, "for better or worse" - a very subtle distinction but I think it's an important one...Probably meaning that we can create and destroy (or do good/evil) beyond the capacity of any animal...though you'll have to ask him if he means that exactly.

Yes we can, but the REASON we create or destroy can still be poor, the fact that we CAN do more than an animal is irrelevant.

Last time I'm saying this since this is the last time I've been quoted before I decided to stop- I'm not replying anymore since I'm damn tired and need sleep; you won't convince me otherwise in my anti-military beliefs and if you continue to argue you'll only be wasting your own time in doing so, I hope I haven't wasted my time in arguing with you and I've at least made you think differently about this subject- good day, sir.

 

[UrbanCohort]

I'm just saying us as humans as a whole have learned a lot from wild animals. From fighting styles to what plants are safe to eat to how to hunt in packs until we learned it was more efficient raise cattle and farm crops than burn all of our energy chasing down game.

Humans learned all that by watching the animals do what they do to survive- finding safe foods to eat and such is all fine and good, but when that knowledge is used to kill one's fellow man, it's application is unetical.

Like I said in my last post, I'm not going to respond to any more quotes other than the ones I have since I need sleep- I doubt I convinced you otherwise of your militaristic beliefs, and you haven't convinced me, so good day, sir.

I won't ever try to argue that you have a commitment to absolutely love the US Military (or whatever country's military), but I do wish you held those men and in higher regard. As you said, the fact that they exist is sad, but someone has to serve as protectors against the "Unethical", to use your word.

EDIT: and it's a high calling.

 

[New York Patrick]

Have you ever heart of Wasps? ALL of their own are dedicated to fighting over territory and resources. This is true with MANY animals, insects, birds, etc. In fact, when predatory species are accidentally introduced to habitats they are non-native to, (which is NOT always our fault, don't even go there,) they have a tendency to drive native species to extinction and upset entire ecosystems.

Sounds a lot like certain human occurences, no?

Humans are not worse than animals. We are not perfect, but we are most certainly SUPERIOR to the animal kingdom. Name one wolfpack or anthill that has science, education, medicine, or the democractic process. I have yet to see bees argue with eachother on a grand scale whether or not their hive should provide subsidized healthcare to its workers, or see bears raise funds in support of less fortunate animals abroad.

Humanity is capable of creating cities, roadways, and works of art. Sure, spiders can build webs, but can they write poetry, create music... paint? No.

Are we better? Maybe that isn't the right word; We have our flaws, but the fact that I am typing this post, and the squirell somewhere in my backyard is not shows that we are not remotely comparable. Humans are so much more than animals, for better and for worse, and you had best remember that.

Cool, I can argue both of these points at once! *Not* killing two brids with one stone because I don't physically harm other creatures, being both a pacifist and vegetarian (ironic how I work in a deli, isn't it?).

Animals kill each other, I understand, I said that in my original post in this topic- but it's all to SURVIVE; do ants kill each other for shiny rocks that really have no bearing on their ability to survive? (Gold, for example) No... they kill each other for food and resources they need to survive and thrive, because if they don't fight, then they die. The vast majority of human wars aren't a 'fight or die' situation, usually a 'fight or subjigate' situation or some variation, even worse, a fight due to greed.

And New York Patrick, you may want to re-read your own post there, in the beginning of the third paragraph you said humans are superior, and then later you say we're no better and then right in the same paragraph you say we are better again? You seem to be contradicting yourself there...

First, I would like to clarify something which has apparently confused you, despite being written in rather plain english: My standpoint IS that humans are VASTLY superior to animals, and to such a degree that it would be fallacy to place them together in a comparison (such as yours.) I do not claim that humans are perfect, flawless beings, but they are infinately more complexed than wolves, caribou, dolphins, falcons, bees, otters, etc.

At no point in my rather simply written paragraph did I contradict that thesis, so I am rather confused as to how you developed that impression.

Now... about your... "arguement":

Animals fight for their own survival because that is all they are capable of fighting for. They are, unlike people, unimaginative, incapable of developing anything close to a society by our standards, and more importantly, incapable of finding ALTERNATIVES to fighting in order to survive.

You seem to be rather hung up on this "fighting" thing, don't you? Did you notice that most of my arguements pointed out OTHER things humans do that animals don't? For a pacifist, you sure have war on the brain, don't you?

 

[Jegsimmons]

America always instills an ideal of the American Soldier fighting for the sake of the citizens' freedom/ liberty/ life according to the "american dream".

I have a great amount of respect for members of the US military, though I don't share the belief that they are all heroes, and it will be a cold day in hell when I believe that we have fought a war in the past fifty years against an enemy which posed any legitimate threat to our "liberties".

So the group al-queda isnt a threat to our freedom? and they are,were,whatever, a legit threat.

Is there enough of a chance of them successfully enslaving our country to warrant the trillions of dollars, and thousands of American lives we have spent over the past decade trying to dismantle the group?

thats doesnt mean they wont try, hell they kill 3000 people in one day for no fucking reason.
thats a fucking legit threat.

And more to the point:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

I had to raise my right hand and say this, in front of a Captain in the Army (joined for the Marines, but any officer or government official can give the oath). I had to swear to defend the Constitution of the United States.

That's the essence of the military. Taliban or no, Soviets or no. Each and every man and woman in the US military swore to stand in defense of everything the United States stands for.

and i am truly grateful for your service.

 

[Truth Cake]

shouldn't having morals actually NOT make us raise giant armies and kill each other?

Stopped reading here. Go walk down a dark alley with your purse and high morals but leave your gun behind.

*deep sigh* First, I don't carry a purse; second, I'm a black belt and can defend myself in a dark alley.

Third- that's exactly my point, humans don't have the morals they claim that makes them better than animals, like I said many posts ago.

 

[Saucycarpdog]

More like, we respect the soldiers and men of the military who serve and die for their country. The leaders, such as obama, though can still be criticized.

 

[AkaDad]

I'd completely support our military if it was defending the country from invasion, but our military is bombing, invading, and occupying other countries, which has nothing to do with keeping us safe or protecting our freedoms. I'd argue it makes us less safe, which I obviously can't support.

 

[Low Key]

I'm just saying us as humans as a whole have learned a lot from wild animals. From fighting styles to what plants are safe to eat to how to hunt in packs until we learned it was more efficient raise cattle and farm crops than burn all of our energy chasing down game.

Humans learned all that by watching the animals do what they do to survive- finding safe foods to eat and such is all fine and good, but when that knowledge is used to kill one's fellow man, it's application is unetical.

Like I said in my last post, I'm not going to respond to any more quotes other than the ones I have since I need sleep- I doubt I convinced you otherwise of your militaristic beliefs, and you haven't convinced me, so good day, sir.

Fair enough. Have a good night.

 

[Samurai Silhouette]

shouldn't having morals actually NOT make us raise giant armies and kill each other?

Stopped reading here. Go walk down a dark alley with your purse and high morals but leave your gun behind.

*deep sigh* First, I don't carry a purse; second, I'm a black belt and can defend myself in a dark alley.

Third- that's exactly my point, humans don't have the morals they claim that makes them better than animals, like I said many posts ago.

Yeah... way to completely miss the point of my argument-

 

[New York Patrick]

*snip*
...New York Patrick, you may want to re-read your own post there, in the beginning of the third paragraph you said humans are superior, and then later you say we're no better and then right in the same paragraph you say we are better again? You seem to be contradicting yourself there...

Actually, if you read carefully, you'll find that he AMENDED his statement from being "better" to being "more than" animals, "for better or worse" - a very subtle distinction but I think it's an important one...Probably meaning that we can create and destroy (or do good/evil) beyond the capacity of any animal...though you'll have to ask him if he means that exactly.

That is EXACTLY what I mean, and so much more. The fact that we are having this debate, or have the internet, is why we cannot be reasonably compared to animals.

 

[Gudrests]

Sorry for the weird title. Well obviously I am not american myself, and some people might find this post a little weird. I have been thinking about this for some time now. Well here is the thing;

Browsing pages such as 4chan.org, imgur and reddit.com, I find people making fun of basicly everything. Except one thing. The US Military. Everytime its about them it all about heroes, "oorah" (some kind of Marine slogan?) and thanks.

Being born in a country with conscription (Denmark), being in the military really isn't that big a deal. Was in the Army Fire Deparmtent myself. Many males of the danish population has been in the military for a certain amount of time, so the military isn't really that much of an romantic institution. It's just a job.

But during my travels last year in the US, and also on the internet, the military is almost sacred. Every word of criticism is met with harsh reprisals, and sorry to say so, but I just don't get it.

Anyways, what I am most curious about is why it is this way? It's not that I think anythings wrong with it, but I must admit that the praise and respect seems a bit excessive in my eyes. Being a hero (which americans use a lot when talking about their troops) in my country is something you have to earn through action. Not by just signing up.

I'm curious, so if any american browsing the site could spare a few minutes to tell me why they pay their respects, it would be much appreciated.

First off I have to thank you for asking the way you did. Most people either say Fuck the troops or Respect them. Also most people that ask normally ask in a manner that is just straight demeaning.

First the U.S military is voluntary. (well it is now anyhow) If you sign up you sign for one of a few reasons. 1. You feel the need to serve your country 2. No other opportunities in your area (if you look alot of the military is what we call corn fed as in from the midwest where its you become a farmer or the military) 3. Kind of a family thing. (dad did it grandpa did it)

Why do people regard our troops in such a high manner, well It's what they do. Where they go. They are by no means the heartless killers some put them out to believe. When you see a video of a sniper killing an enemy it's not because they are heartless and are happy they killed someone, It's because they finally got someone who has been shooting at them.

Most people also know that if you dislike what they do its not the soldier's fault. It's the politicians fault and there is no reason to yell at the soldier. Most every soldier even if they disagree with the order will carry it out to his or her fullest extent. Not all of them are heroes, But the ones that are went above and beyond to make sure someone else lived even if they died.

If I'm missing something just ask.

 

[Truth Cake]

First, I would like to clarify something which has apparently confused you, despite being written in rather plain english: My standpoint IS that humans are VASTLY superior to animals, and to such a degree that it would be fallacy to place them together in a comparison (such as yours.) I do not claim that humans are perfect, flawless beings, but they are infinately more complexed than wolves, caribou, dolphins, falcons, bees, otters, etc.

At no point in my rather simply written paragraph did I contradict that thesis, so I am rather confused as to how you developed that impression.

Now... about your... "arguement":

Animals fight for their own survival because that is all they are capable of fighting for. They are, unlike people, unimaginative, incapable of developing anything close to a society by our standards, and more importantly, incapable of finding ALTERNATIVES to fighting in order to survive.

You seem to be rather hung up on this "fighting" thing, don't you? Did you notice that most of my arguements pointed out OTHER things humans do that animals don't? For a pacifist, you sure have war on the brain, don't you?

Ugh... at this rate I'll be up all night because I'm a stubborn ass and I need to argue with everyone who has a problem with how I think...

If humans are so superior to animals as you claim we are, WHY DO WE NEED TO FIGHT LIKE THEM? Just because we fight for more complex reasons than animals doesn't change the fact that we're still killing our own kind just the same, and apparantly thinking we're superior than animals at doing the exact same thing, but en masse.

I'm 'hung up' on fighting? Maybe this is a topic ABOUT fighting is why I'm thinking about why other people are fighting wars?

 

[StarCecil]

America always instills an ideal of the American Soldier fighting for the sake of the citizens' freedom/ liberty/ life according to the "american dream".

I have a great amount of respect for members of the US military, though I don't share the belief that they are all heroes, and it will be a cold day in hell when I believe that we have fought a war in the past fifty years against an enemy which posed any legitimate threat to our "liberties".

So the group al-queda isnt a threat to our freedom? and they are,were,whatever, a legit threat.

Is there enough of a chance of them successfully enslaving our country to warrant the trillions of dollars, and thousands of American lives we have spent over the past decade trying to dismantle the group?

thats doesnt mean they wont try, hell they kill 3000 people in one day for no fucking reason.
thats a fucking legit threat.

And more to the point:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

I had to raise my right hand and say this, in front of a Captain in the Army (joined for the Marines, but any officer or government official can give the oath). I had to swear to defend the Constitution of the United States.

That's the essence of the military. Taliban or no, Soviets or no. Each and every man and woman in the US military swore to stand in defense of everything the United States stands for.

and i am truly grateful for your service.

Thank you for the sentiment, but I'm not bragging. I'm just saying all those kids I was with that day, and every guy I've served with are simply awesome individuals. There's a few dicks, as there always are, but these guys are hands-down the best ever. And I think that goes for every nation's military, all of them. Seriously. Awesome, dudes.

 

[JMeganSnow]

I'm curious, so if any american browsing the site could spare a few minutes to tell me why they pay their respects, it would be much appreciated.

Well, firstly, you kind of need to distinguish between respect for the institution and respect for the individuals who are members of that institution. Americans generally will respect a.) the institution AND the individuals, b.) the individuals but not the institution or c.) neither. (I don't think I've seen people respecting the institution but not the individuals in general, because that would just be bizarre.)

Since I'm a milbrat (that means my dad was in the military and I spent many of my formative years living on military posts), I'm in a pretty good position to tell you why the American military deserves respect: they earn it. They sign up, of their own free will, with the express intention of putting their lives on the line to defend the ideals of this country.

America is a country of certain ideals, just as Nazi Germany once was, just as Soviet Russia once was--but America's ideals (however imperfectly implemented down the years) are important, valuable ideals that are the foundation of human life and happiness. America's military exists for the ultimate purpose of defending that foundation. Respecting America's military means that you think human life and happiness are good things that ought to be defended.

Unfortunately this is precisely the kind of respect that many people lack nowadays, which is why our military is being used more as a bandage for the worst pestholes on the globe. Still, though, our *soldiers* aren't interfering busybody social workers. Yet.

 

[Madara XIII]

...Why do I get the feeling this thread will quickly turn ugly?

It's inevitable. No point in trying to avoid it. I just suggest you stand clear of the coming few shitstorms

 

[Cobalt180]

The military is romanticized by the media. It's sadly part of our culture as some idolization of moral summit, exemplary discipline, and physical superiority. With the defeat of the Nazi's America got a high and a rush from the victory, and since then has seen the military as it's best and most important asset, "defending American freedom and securing her interests abroad". The idea is now quite outdated, but since the media portrays the militia as a necessity that keeps everything bad away from destroying America, it's seen as an honor to voluntarily serve in it.

Conscription means everyone takes a turn and that everyone understands the basic values and isciplines that a military soldier and indeed even a citizen should uphold, but in a country where convenience is a passive priority, some would rather NOT serve, and have the means to avoid conscription. This begins a childish campaign that can be boiled down into, "if he doesn't have to serve, I don't have to either." That eventually led to the Selective Service Policy America has today.

It might be excessive for America to advertise it's military the way it does, and I'll certainly agree that it's sometimes bothersome, but it's not a problem with the military as a whole, but the policy makers and upper echelons of the military that make those decisions.

 

[Iklwa]

a. its Horrah,

I was in the Marines and it Oorah for the Marines, and Hooah for the army.

HOOAH!

Alright, just going to ignore the whole "are militaries right or not or are we all just animals blah blah blah", and answer the poster's question. As an American, as the child of two military parents, and as a soldier (Rangers lead the way) myself, I can tell you one thing for certain: in America, the military is not for everyone. It's tough to get in, tough to get through training, and tough to be in at times. I say the American military, because I have never served in any other military, and thus cannot speak for the others.

Now, the big difference from Denmark is that the US military is completely and totally volunteer; has been for over 50 years. So when someone decides for themselves that they want to lay down their lives for their countrymen, to us it demands a certain respect. From most of us, anyway (again, ignoring all these morality arguments). So in closing, I say again: I respect those who serve my country, I love serving my country, and RANGERS LEAD THE WAY HOOAH!

 

[StarCecil]

Sorry for the weird title. Well obviously I am not american myself, and some people might find this post a little weird. I have been thinking about this for some time now. Well here is the thing;

Browsing pages such as 4chan.org, imgur and reddit.com, I find people making fun of basicly everything. Except one thing. The US Military. Everytime its about them it all about heroes, "oorah" (some kind of Marine slogan?) and thanks.

Being born in a country with conscription (Denmark), being in the military really isn't that big a deal. Was in the Army Fire Deparmtent myself. Many males of the danish population has been in the military for a certain amount of time, so the military isn't really that much of an romantic institution. It's just a job.

But during my travels last year in the US, and also on the internet, the military is almost sacred. Every word of criticism is met with harsh reprisals, and sorry to say so, but I just don't get it.

Anyways, what I am most curious about is why it is this way? It's not that I think anythings wrong with it, but I must admit that the praise and respect seems a bit excessive in my eyes. Being a hero (which americans use a lot when talking about their troops) in my country is something you have to earn through action. Not by just signing up.

I'm curious, so if any american browsing the site could spare a few minutes to tell me why they pay their respects, it would be much appreciated.

First off I have to thank you for asking the way you did. Most people either say Fuck the troops or Respect them. Also most people that ask normally ask in a manner that is just straight demeaning.

First the U.S military is voluntary. (well it is now anyhow) If you sign up you sign for one of a few reasons. 1. You feel the need to serve your country 2. No other opportunities in your area (if you look alot of the military is what we call corn fed as in from the midwest where its you become a farmer or the military) 3. Kind of a family thing. (dad did it grandpa did it)

Why do people regard our troops in such a high manner, well It's what they do. Where they go. They are by no means the heartless killers some put them out to believe. When you see a video of a sniper killing an enemy it's not because they are heartless and are happy they killed someone, It's because they finally got someone who has been shooting at them.

Most people also know that if you dislike what they do its not the soldier's fault. It's the politicians fault and there is no reason to yell at the soldier. Most every soldier even if they disagree with the order will carry it out to his or her fullest extent. Not all of them are heroes, But the ones that are went above and beyond to make sure someone else lived even if they died.

If I'm missing something just ask.

"Corn Fed"? Ouch, dude, I'm from Kansas!

But, seriously, I've found that most people joined the military because they really wanted to be a part of the military. Certainly there's a variety of hard luck stories but by and large most folks join because they really, really wanted to be a part of the military and everything that entails.

When I was in the DEP there was a number of kids my age from my local area, and we all agreed that our number one reason for joining the Marines was to be a Marine. Certainly there were benefits, financial and otherwise, but those were all secondary to that burning desire to be a part of the Marine Corps.

Of course, the Marines tend to play up that sentiment in a sort of "Do you think you can be us?" sort of way. The Army, I hear, tends to be more about "we have all these jobs!".

 

[B1i nd Luck]

one of the reasons we rejoice our troop is the fact that they sign up, they aare not conscripted. they do their job so we don't have to.

 

[Onoto]

The biggest reason that the military is sacred in America probably isn't the volunteer aspect. No, it probably has to do with the fundamental American spirit. The U.S. is rather unique among nations in that it's great social tie is not racial or religious, but rather idealism. This naturally makes protecting it more than simply defending the homeland, as you have both that and the moral principles America is meant to stand for. The particular idealism - independence, self-determination, etc - lends itself well to a strong, gung-ho military culture, and self-sacrifice becomes much more, well, poetic when it is tied to things like liberty. Throw in a flat-out strong military due to excellent resources and historical prioritization, and it becomes easy to see how the armed forces have earned such a prominent position in the American psyche. The military is a point of national pride as a high-quality institution, and it both embodies and protects lofty ideals.

Of course, not everyone in the military is a good, heroic person, and, of course, not every military action is appropriate or admirable. But the vast majority of the people in the armed forces are there to defend something more significant than themselves, and that's something that the very nature of the American individual is programmed to respect.