Can we stop with the "Batman is more relatable than Superman" thing?

[Cicada 5]

Oh grand, more reasons to avoid New 52 like the plague.

And for gods sake, can we stop this whole "Batman is invincible" thing. Batman does lose, it happens. The difference is that he rarely has monumental losses. He comes back from his shortcomings for an overall victory. Very much a "losing the battle, but winning the war" kind of hero.

And honestly? That is one of the many reasons he's better than Supes. Because it doesn't take a green rock or a ridiculous god-beast or whatever to do something to him.

In theory you'd be right. In practice, he's far from human or realistic. Consider that we had the death of Superman before we had the death of Batman.

But that's exactly my point. Superman has to be killed by the "god-beast or whatever" or inconvenienced by kryptonite, there's so little middle ground. A superhero doesn't have to die to be "human or realistic." And, as I said, the getting back up after being beaten makes Batman, at least to me, far more relatable.

Superman has suffered loss before. See War of the Supermen.

Also, what loss has Bruce suffered that is permanent. Gotham's been devastated and is returned to normal by the next issue. Jason and Damian died and were resurrected.

 

[sumanoskae]

Will we stop expressing an opinion you happen to disagree with? No, not gonna happen. Your argument falls flat because your example is exclusive to the comics; there was a time when Dick Greyson took over as Batman, but everyone still thought of Bruce Wayne as the definitive example of the character.

Comic book heroes are not just characters from individual works of fiction, they're cultural icons. When someone proclaims themselves to be a fan of Batman, they're not referring to whatever transient state the character happens to be at the time, they're referring to the iconic figure; the version of Batman that defined the essential nature of the character.

Batman the comics character may be a God or a super human at the moment, but Batman the icon is a man, fallible and flawed.

 

[Silvanus]

Hell, two of them are Elseworld comics as well, meaning that they're "what if" scenarios at best. And TDR he sorta knows he's gonna lose so he plans to "die" and screws that up a bit as well.

Good point. Plus, Brian Azzarello's stuff (which would include Lex Luthor: Man of Steel) always seems to stand apart from the regular continuity too (though it's never been entirely clear).

 

[sumanoskae]

You take away Superman's power, he will continue to fight. He'll lose. But he'll continue to fight.

You want to defeat Batman? Put a psychiatrist in front of him with a handful of prozac. And that's the end of the caped crusader.

I think Batman is more relate-able to the masses because Batman stopped growing at one moment in life. The fear of moving on, of growing even through undesirable circumstances is very in-tune with the modern, self centered society. "I was hurt, Life must pay" type of thinking.

I think Batman is boring. Superman at least has weaknesses. No one will let anything besmirch their ideal of the perfect bat hero so they insist he can beat everything... then decry Superman for the very thing they love and champion Batman about: He can't be beaten.

Make no mistake in your mind. Being straight out invincible is no less or more boring than "Technically he CAN be beaten... but he'll never be because he's Just. That. Good".

It comes down to really one fact: Batman is the symbol of the new Atheist society. Man above all. That's really the reason he's championed.

You really think narcissism is an advent of modern culture? History is full examples of the dehumanization of both individual people and entire cultures; human's have been treating each other like shit since the dawn of man.

How do you conclude that modern humanity is more self centered than old humanity?

 

[Redryhno]

Superman has suffered loss before. See War of the Supermen.

Also, what loss has Bruce suffered that is permanent. Gotham's been devastated and is returned to normal by the next issue. Jason and Damian died and were resurrected.

And neither came back the same. Jason Todd went off and became the Red Hood, who has sometimes come to help Batman, other times has directly opposed and attempted to kill him, the guy goes insane because of what he goes through. Damian is just sorta an asshat before and after his resurrection. There was also Stephanie, the Robin nobody ever wants to talk about, who I don't think was ever brought back to life at all.

And saying "Gotham is returned to normal" can just as easily be applied to Metropolis, or even anything that involves Alternate Earths in the DCU. This is ignoring that both broke him for a time because they're his kids. And them coming back broke him again.

So to answer your question, sure, he hasn't lost a huge amount that hasn't come back in some form(emphasis on "some form"), but neither has Superman. The difference is that the people closest to Superman are rarely ever in danger while Batman has lost friends and family on the regular.

 

[jklinders]

I don't see either of them as relatable. One is a nearly literal god figure and the other is a megalomaniac billionaire vigilante who has somehow mastered a dozen fighting styles, high level forensics, chemistry and god alone knows what else you need to know to be the "worlds greatest detective" by the age of 30. if you see either of these guys as anything less than a god sue then I really don't know what to say to you.

I'd rather see a decent Batman story than any Superman story, but both characters are boring as fuck to me.

 

[Lunar Templar]

Batman has never been 'relatable' compared to Superman. It's just one boring OP Mary Sue vs another boring OP Mary Sue

 

[Asita]

...Really people? We're going with the "Batman's rich, that makes him unrelatable" bit? When compared to Superman? The guy who has historically had a "Fortress of Solitude" which is for all intents and purposes a private island made of kryptonian crystal capable of storing information, containing advanced service robots, robot duplicates of Superman, a supercomputer, a zoo for extra-terrestrial species, labs for anti-kryptonite experiments, accommodations for his friends, and pretty much all the alien tech he came across and decided to keep? Let's not mince words here, Clark is at a minimum very wealthy through the worth of his assets alone, if not insanely so. He is the prince pretending to be a pauper by working a middle class job, not a true middle class citizen.

 

[Amir Kondori]

I didn't even know that this was a thing. But now that you mentioned it, he's definitely more relatable than Superman.

Its because of that attitude is why we don't get any good Non Batman DC content. Name one GOOD Wonder Woman, Green Latern, and Flash comic book right out of your head?

Batman monoplized DC's attention. Batman sadly has become the face of DC when really it should be Superman.

Seeing Batman in the center of a Justice League group shot is just wrong.

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/68/6896/NNTJ100Z/posters/justice-league-of-america-generations-group-team-comic-poster.jpg

Superman completely bores me. First of all he isn't even human, he is some alien from a dead world. Not a deal breaker but definitely makes it harder to look up to him. Second of all he is a super boring, always does the right thing no question about it kind of character. Because he only has one contrived weakness there is seldom any real danger he is in.

All in all I find Superman to one of the most boring comic book characters ever put to paper.

 

[Angelblaze]

I didn't even know that this was a thing. But now that you mentioned it, he's definitely more relatable than Superman.

Its because of that attitude is why we don't get any good Non Batman DC content. Name one GOOD Wonder Woman, Green Latern, and Flash comic book right out of your head?

Batman monoplized DC's attention. Batman sadly has become the face of DC when really it should be Superman.

Seeing Batman in the center of a Justice League group shot is just wrong.

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/68/6896/NNTJ100Z/posters/justice-league-of-america-generations-group-team-comic-poster.jpg

1. I already know you'll say whatever comic I like is bad, but I enjoy Annual Flash. The art is usually very nice and its always good to be fanserviced by Halberry :3

2. If anything, this makes Batman more relatable. A majority of Batman's notable moments are either sad, depressing or force us to consider a lot of moral questions that we, as a country (speaking for the US here) still have yet to answer. We've all had those precious moments when we're on top of the fucking world. Let Batman have his fucking moment please.

3. Few people find Batman relatable, in fact he's more a stand in for a better character -- its the colorful cast of villians that actually makes Batman shine. No one can deny that without the interesting moral questions the Joker raised, or without the Joker himself, that Batman would've been gone by the end of the original comics era, or at least, become Plastic Man but serious.

Meaning just barely existent in the DC canon.

 

[PapaGreg096]

I think all superheroes are unrelatable crap invented to feed off lazy audience, and by XXI century this lazyness got as epic as it gets, and it will get even worse.

I guess you don't know a lot about superheroes

Trust me, I know enough to make my conclusion. Even the better superhero comicbook stories usually are as deep as your average Warhanmmer 40k book. And those are as deep as not at all.

What better superheroes stories are you talking about because the ones I read tend to be the same quality as high grade television like The Wire

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

You really think narcissism is an advent of modern culture? History is full examples of the dehumanization of both individual people and entire cultures; human's have been treating each other like shit since the dawn of man.

How do you conclude that modern humanity is more self centered than old humanity?

If I ever said those words, That Narcissism is an advent of Modern Culture, immediately lock me up as soon as possible. Because I've suddenly gone crazy.

However, my point is with Science and the step away from Myths and legend, Modern Society is more focused on the Power and Strength of Man. Who needs overpowered Gods any more when Man harnessed science, killing the need for anything stronger than Humankind Ability to Adapt and Overcome? That's the sentiment in modern society that I'm addressing.

 

[Cicada 5]

Superman has suffered loss before. See War of the Supermen.

Also, what loss has Bruce suffered that is permanent. Gotham's been devastated and is returned to normal by the next issue. Jason and Damian died and were resurrected.

And neither came back the same. Jason Todd went off and became the Red Hood, who has sometimes come to help Batman, other times has directly opposed and attempted to kill him, the guy goes insane because of what he goes through. Damian is just sorta an asshat before and after his resurrection. There was also Stephanie, the Robin nobody ever wants to talk about, who I don't think was ever brought back to life at all.

And saying "Gotham is returned to normal" can just as easily be applied to Metropolis, or even anything that involves Alternate Earths in the DCU. This is ignoring that both broke him for a time because they're his kids. And them coming back broke him again.

So to answer your question, sure, he hasn't lost a huge amount that hasn't come back in some form(emphasis on "some form"), but neither has Superman. The difference is that the people closest to Superman are rarely ever in danger while Batman has lost friends and family on the regular.

Bruce and Jason are pretty amicable in the New 52. And Steph did come back. In fact, it was retconned that her death was faked.

 

[Cicada 5]

...Really people? We're going with the "Batman's rich, that makes him unrelatable" bit? When compared to Superman? The guy who has historically had a "Fortress of Solitude" which is for all intents and purposes a private island made of kryptonian crystal capable of storing information, containing advanced service robots, robot duplicates of Superman, a supercomputer, a zoo for extra-terrestrial species, labs for anti-kryptonite experiments, accommodations for his friends, and pretty much all the alien tech he came across and decided to keep? Let's not mince words here, Clark is at a minimum very wealthy through the worth of his assets alone, if not insanely so. He is the prince pretending to be a pauper by working a middle class job, not a true middle class citizen.

The Fortress has never been used as a source of income for Superman. At most, it's just where he stores the Phantom Zone projector and even the robot Superman aren't a constant. Batman's wealth has been shown as the source of funding for everything the Justice League has and yet he still has enough to keep his company afloat, form an organization of Batmen etc.

 

[Asita]

...Really people? We're going with the "Batman's rich, that makes him unrelatable" bit? When compared to Superman? The guy who has historically had a "Fortress of Solitude" which is for all intents and purposes a private island made of kryptonian crystal capable of storing information, containing advanced service robots, robot duplicates of Superman, a supercomputer, a zoo for extra-terrestrial species, labs for anti-kryptonite experiments, accommodations for his friends, and pretty much all the alien tech he came across and decided to keep? Let's not mince words here, Clark is at a minimum very wealthy through the worth of his assets alone, if not insanely so. He is the prince pretending to be a pauper by working a middle class job, not a true middle class citizen.

The Fortress has never been used as a source of income for Superman. At most, it's just where he stores the Phantom Zone projector and even the robot Superman aren't a constant. Batman's wealth has been shown as the source of funding for everything the Justice League has and yet he still has enough to keep his company afloat, form an organization of Batmen etc.

Allow me to elaborate, Z. Getting it out of the way, the actual amount of money Clark has in the bank only tells part of the story about his wealth, and his income - or use of his assets for income - is only consequential in as far as managing that wealth is concerned. When you refer to what is used as a source of income or money in the bank, you are in effect looking at his "Cash on hand" rather than total wealth, or net worth.

Make no mistake, cash on hand is a part of one's net worth, but it is not the whole of it. Net is measured by calculating the worth of your assets as a whole and measuring them against your liabilities. On the assets side, this includes your cash on hand, your home, your car, your stock holdings...and pretty much everything that you own that could theoretically be liquidated and turned into cash on hand. Whether or not you are ever likely to sell that $50,000 antique chest of drawers is inconsequential to the fact that it's valued at $50,000 and thus treated as $50,000 for the sake of calculating your net worth. This is in turn measured against your liabilities, such as whatever would be in accounts payable. In Superman's case, most of his wealth is in physical assets rather than cash. Incidentally, a great deal of those assets tend to echo those seen in the fantastically wealthy of fiction, such as a private castle/island/mountain (or rarely spaceship), highly advanced technology well above what is commonly available, robot servitors, private laboratories, a personal zoo, and presumably some means of sustenance considering that if memory serves he spent a good long while secluded in it in the aftermath of his "death". Hence "prince pretending to be a pauper". He already has in assets what the rich in fiction tend to use their money to acquire, he just doesn't make a show of it.

 

[McMarbles]

Yes, [sarcasm mode] the billionaire who's just naturally the best at fucking everything and is always a hundred steps ahead of everyone and is all dark and tortured is inherently a million times more relatable to me than the guy raised by working class, loving parents who holds down a 9-to-5 job and has actual relationships with normal people.

I find that people who bust out the "Superman is a boring unrelatable Mary Sue, not like Batman" chestnut are people who have probably never read a Superman story in their lives.

 

[Redryhno]

...Really people? We're going with the "Batman's rich, that makes him unrelatable" bit? When compared to Superman? The guy who has historically had a "Fortress of Solitude" which is for all intents and purposes a private island made of kryptonian crystal capable of storing information, containing advanced service robots, robot duplicates of Superman, a supercomputer, a zoo for extra-terrestrial species, labs for anti-kryptonite experiments, accommodations for his friends, and pretty much all the alien tech he came across and decided to keep? Let's not mince words here, Clark is at a minimum very wealthy through the worth of his assets alone, if not insanely so. He is the prince pretending to be a pauper by working a middle class job, not a true middle class citizen.

The Fortress has never been used as a source of income for Superman. At most, it's just where he stores the Phantom Zone projector and even the robot Superman aren't a constant. Batman's wealth has been shown as the source of funding for everything the Justice League has and yet he still has enough to keep his company afloat, form an organization of Batmen etc.

Yet he's rarely ever had consequences for retreating to it for sometimes months on end as Clark Kent. He either has incredible job security either through talent(which we never see really) or an amazing union or something we're not shown.

And it's not like Wayne Enterprises is the only source of income for Bruce, it's got something like a dozen subsidiaries that all are a part of the Wayne umbrella(has Wayne "____" in the name), and at least twice that that are just owned by his family's company. Not to mention it's not like Lex has any business being able to butt heads with Superman either as often as he does since they compared Luthor's and Wayne's net worth at one point and Luthor is something like half of Bruce's wealth. If Batman is outside the realm of possibility because of income, then Lex is even MORE outside the realm of possibility for all the space missions he's behind alone.

Which leaves Superman with a being that literally cannot be killed without coming back stronger and quite possibly immune to what got him last time(and can't be caged due to his amazing adaptability that requires half the Green Lantern Corps to watch him for a week in that state), a galactic emperor that has centuries of experience and genocide to his name, his own people he sticks in the magic no-fun-zone because he's stronger due to being exposed to the yellow sun longer than them and ancient magical horrors being the only things that can even have a CHANCE of standing up to him. Villains make the characters in DC, and when you need immortal beings capable of slaughtering entire universes to be the villains(plural), you lose alot of what you can do with a character.

Bruce and Jason are pretty amicable in the New 52. And Steph did come back. In fact, it was retconned that her death was faked.

So in essence, you're complaining that retcons ruin things? Congrats, it's not like that's never happened before with every comic character. I assumed you were talking about over the long history of Batman and not just the incredibly recent past.

 

[happyninja42]

I didn't even know that this was a thing. But now that you mentioned it, he's definitely more relatable than Superman.

Its because of that attitude is why we don't get any good Non Batman DC content. Name one GOOD Wonder Woman, Green Latern, and Flash comic book right out of your head?

Batman monoplized DC's attention. Batman sadly has become the face of DC when really it should be Superman.

Seeing Batman in the center of a Justice League group shot is just wrong.

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/68/6896/NNTJ100Z/posters/justice-league-of-america-generations-group-team-comic-poster.jpg

He's the most popular of the heroes. I'm sorry that you don't like it, but the people buying the comics are speaking with their dollars. And yes, again, I hate it for you, but Batman IS more relatable than Superman, and any other person with superpowers. Because he is just a guy with a huge budget and training. And on a relatability scale, that IS more relatable than aliens and mutants and magical beings.

You seem to be of the opinion that the fans are putting all their money into Batman, because he's the only game in town? Pretty sure it's the other way around. Fans have clamored for Batman content, and DC has supplied the demand. I guess you could say it's a chicken or the egg kind of debate, but I personally don't think it's the way you handle it. If Batman ever stopped making them money, because the fans were simply over saturated with him and couldn't give a shit, they would stop publishing him. They are in it for the money after all.

Personally, I don't find Batman all that interesting, especially as writers bend over so far backwards that they have their heads up their own asses, to justify Batman being "on par" with beings who can crack planets in half. It's gotten to the point of silliness as far as I'm concerned, but hey, I don't write comics, so I'm sure they don't care what I think.