Can we talk about the apparent culture of sexual abuse in the american film industry?

Murlin

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Jul 15, 2009
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stroopwafel said:
Finally someone who gets it. Strange how 'harassment' is so disproportionally concentrated in one particular segment of the entertainment industry that, how coincidentially, happen to be all based on looks and the one-way ticket to fame and riches.
If you ignore the cases of it happening outside the entertainment industry and all the people who've been saying that this happens outside of the Weinstein case/Hollywood as well.

stroopwafel said:
Where are them uglies complaining of harassment?
Do you have conversations with women?
 

stroopwafel

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Murlin said:
stroopwafel said:
Finally someone who gets it. Strange how 'harassment' is so disproportionally concentrated in one particular segment of the entertainment industry that, how coincidentially, happen to be all based on looks and the one-way ticket to fame and riches.
If you ignore the cases of it happening outside the entertainment industry and all the people who've been saying that this happens outside of the Weinstein case/Hollywood as well.
So? Any woman is free to reject such avances and if a line is crossed she can press charges. I very much doubt any corporate fat cat will force himself on a woman though just as I very much doubt the motives of women who regret consent to sexual acts and then complain about it later. And a sleezeball trying his chances is, again, sleezy but not criminal. And again a disproportionate amount of such behaviour occurs in this part of the entertainment industry that thrives on youth and beauty. You really that naive that women don't know what gets them ahead?

Do you have conversations with women?
Definitely. I discussed the issue with my gf and her friends(all attractive) and they all agreed that women can be very mean and manipulative, both to eachother and to men. Most of the time even more so to eachother. I expect only white knights with zero experience with women think their intentions are always sincere. Again since they only hear online from radical feminists and try to get on their good side not realizing it's a minority opinion.
 

Darth Rosenberg

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Johnny Novgorod said:
Glad we agree!
...that's not an equivalent to what you asserted with regards to the "same sins", though, so you're still flat out wrong on that count. 'Infidelity and hypocrisy' ain't the same thing as wanking into a flower pot in front of a cornered woman... or, y'know, his alleged rapes, plural.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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stroopwafel said:
So? Any woman is free to reject such avances and if a line is crossed she can press charges. I very much doubt any corporate fat cat will force himself on a woman though just as I very much doubt the motives of women who regret consent to sexual acts and then complain about it later. And a sleezeball trying his chances is, again, sleezy but not criminal. And again a disproportionate amount of such behaviour occurs in this part of the entertainment industry that thrives on youth and beauty. You really that naive that women don't know what gets them ahead?
Does the name Dominique Strauss-Kahn mean anything to you? The head of the IMF that tried to force himself on a hotel maid in New York and settled out of court? Bill Cosby? Silvio Berlusconi? If you don't think men with power and influence will use those things to force themselves sexually on women and have the women keep silent about it, it is you who are naive, not the rest of us.

stroopwafel said:
Definitely. I discussed the issue with my gf and her friends(all attractive) and they all agreed that women can be very mean and manipulative, both to eachother and to men. Most of the time even more so to eachother. I expect only white knights with zero experience with women think their intentions are always sincere. Again since they only hear online from radical feminists and try to get on their good side not realizing it's a minority opinion.
I am glad all the women you talk to are attractive, it seems pertinent to this discussion, too. I am equally glad that you've figured out that women are also people and thus can feel the full range of human emotions and act on the full scale of human actions. But what the flying fuck does it have to do with anything?

Are there women women who slept with Weinstein consensually, hoping it would further their career and being indifferent to the fact that they slept with an unattractive older man? Most likely, yes. Does that mean that all women who Weinstein has had sexual relations with have done so consensually to further their careers? Most likely, no. These two things can be simultaneously true, which means that some women will be alright with sleeping their way 'to the top', while others won't. There's a reason that 'wide-eyed and naive country girl trying to make it as an actress' is an old stock trope in Hollywood, because it is the truth for many, many aspiring actresses. These are young girls with a dream, lots of ambition and good looks (and often a lack of understanding of what Hollywood is really like) but none of that translates into being willing to sleep with people to get roles. That you keep insisting that it does, does however reveal some of your own prejudices against beautiful women, not that I am sure I wanted to have them thrust in my face.
 

RunsWithBears

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PsychedelicDiamond said:
If someone denies you a job because you don't wanna sleep with him then he's obviously the one acting unethically and abusing his position.
Sure. So you say "no thank you" and move on. If you comply because you want to be famous, you're not a victim.
 

CaitSeith

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RunsWithBears said:
PsychedelicDiamond said:
If someone denies you a job because you don't wanna sleep with him then he's obviously the one acting unethically and abusing his position.
Sure. So you say "no thank you" and move on.
Move on to where?
 

Casual Shinji

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Gethsemani said:
stroopwafel said:
So? Any woman is free to reject such avances and if a line is crossed she can press charges. I very much doubt any corporate fat cat will force himself on a woman though just as I very much doubt the motives of women who regret consent to sexual acts and then complain about it later. And a sleezeball trying his chances is, again, sleezy but not criminal. And again a disproportionate amount of such behaviour occurs in this part of the entertainment industry that thrives on youth and beauty. You really that naive that women don't know what gets them ahead?
Does the name Dominique Strauss-Kahn mean anything to you? The head of the IMF that tried to force himself on a hotel maid in New York and settled out of court? Bill Cosby? Silvio Berlusconi? If you don't think men with power and influence will use those things to force themselves sexually on women and have the women keep silent about it, it is you who are naive, not the rest of us.
You forgot Jimmy Savile. A person who molested hundreds of children as well as dozens of patients in a hospital, and got away with it due to his power and status as a celebrity.

Bless you for still trying to reason with this poster though, who believes because women have the ability to lie that they will therefor all lie about being sexually haressed. Especially if they're rich, famous, and beautiful. It makes me hope he doesn't and never will have a job in the judicial system. -'I'm sorry miss, but I'm afraid your claim won't hold in a court of law due to you being rich and on the cover of Vogue.'
 

Cowabungaa

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Zontar said:
The response to people finding out is the literal opposite of what a rape culture would be. You want a rape culture, find me one where this doesn't have a massive negative response when people find out, because that, my friend, is what a rape culture is. Unless the leftist version of the term is one that's functionally meaningless, in which case it serves no purpose to begin with.
This shit is only getting a negative response now. Weinstein & co got away with this for decades and in many places still are getting away with it. That's the rape culture women have been living in and are still living in. How is this so hard to comprehend? How can you be so ignorant of the history of this problem? How can you pretend that it's fixed now that one guy got exposed and hung out to dry for this. One guy.
stroopwafel said:
That is definitely true but the issue is with people trying to criminalize sleezeball behavior.
[HEADING=2]How the fuck is this bad?![/HEADING]

In what kind of fucked up universe is it a problem to criminalize sexual harassment?!
 

Murlin

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Jul 15, 2009
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stroopwafel said:
Definitely. I discussed the issue with my gf and her friends(all attractive) and they all agreed that women can be very mean and manipulative, both to eachother and to men. Most of the time even more so to eachother. I expect only white knights with zero experience with women think their intentions are always sincere. Again since they only hear online from radical feminists and try to get on their good side not realizing it's a minority opinion.
I'll take your word for it, I can tell you're an expert on the subject being stuck inside a fantasy bubble of ignorance.
 

Neurotic Void Melody

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There seems to be this gross misconception that all or most victims of sexual abuse have to act rationally as if it were not at all an emotionally damaging moment in their lives, else it totes didn't happen and they were just asking for it. Almost as if this misconception is being projected by males whom have had no experience in the subject matter but feel it is their duty to say how they would respond, regardless of their lack of knowledge or experience, or how power play works with predators in positions of power.

That's not even getting into the people who have had problems with sexual abuse in their past and it being ignored or worse.
For example, a lady I was in hospital with once, she explained how years ago in her childhood, she tried to tell her mum on multiple occasions of the sexual abuse from her stepdad, except she was instead accused of trying to break them up and eventually disowned by her own mother as her mum would rather sacrifice her daughter's relationship instead of consider that her own is at fault. It's tied into self-esteem also for this. But anyway, her daughter is left in and out of various mental health wards suffering from the denial that is so regularly a part of this world.
Another lady had gotten so used to abuse that she thought not fighting would be easier than resisting, it would make it quicker for her. None of the issue is pretty or neat or something the average unabused is capable of understanding and commenting on.

People under emotional stress, dealing with even past emotional stress do not usually have the healthiest coping strategies nor do they act always rationally. But even then you could argue that it might be rational to try and brush it off instead of fight an uphill battle where so many others have already lost.

Predators try to pick up on weaknesses, it's what they do. Especially in positions of power, if they try with someone they think is weak and fail, fuck it... there's a hundred or thousand more coming through the door...and guess who's the perceived gatekeeper to their fame and success? Yup. Fail 20...50...what...maybe 1 will be weak or damaged enough (I used to know the type to think that way with women) to break and who will believe them if they tell anyway? Who even are they? They don't have the money, connections or power to be taken seriously. Imply that all the other girls had to do the same, what do they know? They could have, right?

Fuck, this problem has been around for so long and God knows how much longer if people would rather ignore or blame the victims. It's easier to justify they deserve it than to accept that there is so much more we could be doing to stop this despicable abuse of power upon impressionable and ambitious youth. I sincerely hope this opens a lot more doorways for victims to not be ignored. It's fucking ridiculous that abusers can go decades, even till their deaths, before people look seriously at victims claims. Is there some sort of sick ratio of how many you can abuse in comparison to your social status and money before you have to reap what you sow?
 

Cowabungaa

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inu-kun said:
That's true of every crime done by rich or powerful people: tax evasion, embezzling, violence, drunk driving, taking drugs etc.

Maybe if people call it "rich or powerful people getting scot free from crimes culture" then people would approve the term. Also will be appropriate to the common man who doesn't regularly rape people but still be implied to be rapist by the term.
Except that this goes beyond the rich and powerful. Don't forget that power is relative. A middle manager with an average wage is more powerful than the young clerk with a low wage and can lord that over them, including in sexual ways. It's not without reason that sexual intimidation is everywhere. If anything what people need to realise is that power relationships and power imbalances are everywhere, and that in that regard women often still get the short end of the stick and way too often suffer because of it. It's not complicated at all but so many people still refuse to see it.
 

Combustion Kevin

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Give people power without accountability and they will show their true colors.
Personally, even though its obvious that this guy "helped" a lot of careers with a tumble in the sheets, plenty of actresses will have done so out of desperation and having nowhere to go as well as seeing it as a quick and easy path to fame and success.
For the latter I have no sympathies, for the former, it is kinda sad there is no legal recourse against this, it is prostitution at best with a job as the payment.

As for the Whedon thing, he was sleeping around with actresses who already GOT the job, if you read his comments and testimonies on the whole affair(s) you'll see that this guy didn't use his fame to just bang hot chicks, he had genuine little relationships with them, "inappropriate emotional relationships" according to the accusation.
It's no secret women are attracted to power, and Joss looks like a nice enough guy, it's not unthinkable his wife is angry about his lack of emotional exclusivity and commitment to her.

Cowabungaa said:
stroopwafel said:
That is definitely true but the issue is with people trying to criminalize sleezeball behavior.
[HEADING=2]How the fuck is this bad?![/HEADING]

In what kind of fucked up universe is it a problem to criminalize sexual harassment?!
The problem you encounter here is conflating sexual harassment with sexual favoritism, harassment is one-sided and insistent whilst favoritism often brings benefit to both parties, often at the expense of a third.
There is no denying that a lot of actresses benefited from his "deal", unethical as it was.
 

Cowabungaa

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Combustion Kevin said:
There is no denying that a lot of actresses benefited from his "deal", unethical as it was.
Having an extra, disgusting and disturbing hoop to jump through to just be able to do your job is not a "benefit." His deals were not favouritism, but intimidation and power abuse. It's an extra barrier when you get down to it. One that apparently even men can't completely escape, going by Terry Crews' testimony of what's going on in the industry. Did you listen to the Weinstein tapes that were posted a few pages back? How he pressed that model to watch him shower or something? That shit was awful.
 

stroopwafel

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Gethsemani said:
Does the name Dominique Strauss-Kahn mean anything to you? The head of the IMF that tried to force himself on a hotel maid in New York and settled out of court? Bill Cosby? Silvio Berlusconi? If you don't think men with power and influence will use those things to force themselves sexually on women and have the women keep silent about it, it is you who are naive, not the rest of us.
Yeah, I heard of DSK and I believe the case you mention was settled in court. I believe this fat fuck physically forced himself on a woman and for that he was brought to justice. Cosby drugged women and raped them in their sleep and he was a pedophile as well. Again, all criminal behavior. Berlusconi was a mobster turned president with his ass so far up corruption scandals that any vice related crimes were probably the least of his problems. Point being?

You wrongfully equate criminal behavior with..

There's a reason that 'wide-eyed and naive country girl trying to make it as an actress' is an old stock trope in Hollywood, because it is the truth for many, many aspiring actresses. These are young girls with a dream, lots of ambition and good looks (and often a lack of understanding of what Hollywood is really like) but none of that translates into being willing to sleep with people to get roles. That you keep insisting that it does, does however reveal some of your own prejudices against beautiful women, not that I am sure I wanted to have them thrust in my face.
Again, if a casting agent insinuates to an actress that she can get a movie role in exchange for a sexual favor it is up to her to either reject or accept such an offer. The difference with criminal behavior is consent. You might find insinuating such a favor sleezy(which it is) but he didn't violate her physical integrity so per default this is not 'harassment' nor is it coercion as a role in a movie hardly necessitates for her to relinquish consent. You could also easily turn it around by implying the only reason she would get the part was by granting sexual favors to the casting director. Whatever decision is made it's an agreement between both parties. Any conclusions you draw from that is just pure conjecture on your part.


Casual Shinji said:
Bless you for still trying to reason with this poster though, who believes because women have the ability to lie that they will therefor all lie about being sexually haressed. Especially if they're rich, famous, and beautiful. It makes me hope he doesn't and never will have a job in the judicial system. -'I'm sorry miss, but I'm afraid your claim won't hold in a court of law due to you being rich and on the cover of Vogue.'
Like I said time and again in this thread if someone physically forces himself on a woman she can press charges as this is a criminal offense. I don't know how much more clear-cut it can get. What you suggest is that we should put the door wide open for prosecutions against the most vaguest of sexual innuendos so attention hungry wannabe starlets and hysterical ultra feminists can perform witch hunts on men that are already suspect per default. False rape accusations already destroyed the lives of many men but oh no lets lower the threshold even further so we can charge allegations if a creep even looks at a girl funny.

That might work if you live under a rock and never leave the house but for everyone else it sets a dangerous precedent.
 

Casual Shinji

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stroopwafel said:
Like I said time and again in this thread if someone physically forces himself on a woman she can press charges as this is a criminal offense. I don't know how much more clear-cut it can get. What you suggest is that we should put the door wide open for prosecutions against the most vaguest of sexual innuendos so attention hungry wannabe starlets and hysterical ultra feminists can perform witch hunts on men that are already suspect per default. False rape accusations already destroyed the lives of many men but oh no lets lower the threshold even further so we can charge allegations if a creep even looks at a girl funny.

That might work if you live under a rock and never leave the house but for everyone else it sets a dangerous precedent.
So false rape charges exist, therefor all of these women that have come forward, 100% of them, are all making false claims? Not even 'maybe some are lying, but most are probably legit', no, just all "attention hungry, wannabe starlets" and "hysterical ultra feminists", all of them. Again, how peculiar rape/sexual harassment victims have such trouble coming forth with mindsets like this around.

And you know what sets a dangerous precedent? Thinking that only physical force constitutes sexual harassment or rape.
 

stroopwafel

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Casual Shinji said:
So false rape charges exist, therefor all of these women that have come forward, 100% of them, are all making false claims? Not even 'maybe some are lying, but most are probably legit', no, just all "attention hungry, wannabe starlets" and "hysterical ultra feminists", all of them. Again, how peculiar rape/sexual harassment victims have such trouble coming forth with mindsets like this around.
Not at all, the charges against DSK, Cosby etc were all legit and grounds for prosecution. In all these cases there was either lack of consent or minors being sexually abused. From what I understand with Wienerschnitzel the women felt harassed by his sleezy innuendos but this itself is not a crime as long as he doesn't infringe on the physical integrity of the women and as long as he did not receive favors without consent. I feel like a broken record here but being a sleeze or creep is not a crime.

And you know what sets a dangerous precedent? Thinking that only physical force constitutes sexual harassment or rape.
Yeah, let's throw all objective measurement out the window and make the justice system an SJW plaything so we can have true equality for all. Paradise!
 

Combustion Kevin

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Cowabungaa said:
Having an extra, disgusting and disturbing hoop to jump through to just be able to do your job is not a "benefit." His deals were not favoritism, but intimidation and power abuse. It's an extra barrier when you get down to it. One that apparently even men can't completely escape, going by Terry Crews' testimony of what's going on in the industry. Did you listen to the Weinstein tapes that were posted a few pages back? How he pressed that model to watch him shower or something? That shit was awful.
They could have refused and tried somewhere else, he's not the only producer in Hollywood and there are plenty producers who do not sleep around with their actresses.
I mean, that big opportunity is a real carrot on a stick, they may feel like its the only one they have but that is simply not true, its the only one that will get them fame and success within roughly a year as opposed to building their career for years upon years of minor roles and hard work, the term "devil's bargain" comes to mind.

They could have said no and walk away at any point but consented instead, whatever their reasons were, that makes this legal.
 

Casual Shinji

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stroopwafel said:
Not at all, the charges against DSK, Cosby etc were all legit and grounds for prosecution. In all these cases there was either lack of consent or minors being sexually abused. From what I understand with Wienerschnitzel the women felt harassed by his sleezy innuendos but this itself is not a crime as long as he doesn't infringe on the physical integrity of the women and as long as he did not receive favors without consent. I feel like a broken record here but being a sleeze or creep is not a crime.
Yep, because continuously forcing yourself onto women and inviting them to a place only to sit there naked jerking off when they arrive is sleezy innuendo.

And you know what sets a dangerous precedent? Thinking that only physical force constitutes sexual harassment or rape.
Yeah, let's throw all objective measurement out the window and make the justice system an SJW plaything so we can have true equality for all. Paradise!
You know bullying is more than just physical violence too, right? I mean, are you really not getting this?! Keep using those pathetically dismissive terms though, it does wonders for your arguments.