Can we talk about the "friend zone" and "nice guys" for a moment?

Sarge034

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Phasmal said:
Eventually every relationship I have been in has moved to that system if it lasted long enough, but that is a big if. With initial costs as high as they are for a relationship and the current economy it is just a lot of risk for a guy to make that jump without knowing quite a bit about the lady he is trying to date. That is why I don't understand the whole friend zone thing. Being a friend is basically a chance for people to learn about each other without taking a blind leap into just another relationship.

Off topic. I hope you get well soon.
 

ToxicOranges

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Thank you for apologising OP. Now apologise for starting a flame war, because my hate cannons are ready to fire.

The basis of your argument appears to be,

"We can't help it if we don't like you" and "How dare you like us just for a relationship pursuit".

Firstly, duh, that's how the world works. That's how guys are. We CAN'T HELP IT EITHER IF WE LIKE YOU LIKE THAT. Please, reread that. Now, stop whining that you lose friends over it. As a guy, I've lost contact with female friends becuase they've liked me and I didn't reciprcate affection. The friend zone works both ways. Attraction works both ways. Stop trying to convince us that its all scumbag "nice guys" who are baaawing here. Girls do the exact same thing.
 

WingedIncubus

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Muse on this, guys.

Within the first seconds of meeting you, a girl knows and has decided if she's willing to give you a shot or not, if she's willing to give you access to her time and attention or not, if she's opening the door for you or not.

If she isn't, there's nothing you can do, be, or say that will make her change her mind and her feelings UNLESS either you disappear for months or years and when she sees you again she likes what she's seeing, or you suddenly reveal yourself to be Elvis in disguise that makes you reevaluate you a whole other way. But if you weasel yourself into a friendship with her, who is she to tell you to bug off (unless of course your presence would be a blight to her situation if you are really that hard on the sight)? She'll take what you give her for free.

It's a matter of her feeling you, or her valueing you as a sexual partner. Physical attractiveness is one element over many others, and sometimes not even an element : how you dress, how you look, how you speak, how you smell, how you walk, what you demonstrate as you move, what you say, what you promise, what you suggest, etc. In fact a lot of times objective physical attractiveness counts for few if at all in the feeling of attraction itself - although it does help.

That's why girls say often it's not a matter of whether he is attractive or not, but if she IS attracted to him or not. It is a feeling based on instinct. They don't think, feel, and work on this like us men do. We men are wired in such a way that if we see an attractive woman, we have the biological urge to render her pregnant within seconds of seeing her. For women it's not how it works, at all. However, because of how we males see sex and attraction it's way too easy for us to present women's attraction as "them wanting only hot guys/bad boys/good-looking jerks". Maybe they do for a fling, an affair, friends-with-benefits relationships, or a relationship until she founds a better deal, but not for a stable, mature relationship that she hopes it'll last for years.

Physical attractiveness only helps woman open her doors to you and invest in you easier. You still have to talk to her, get to know her, and make her develop her willingness to follow you, either for a relationship or even for a straight one-time hook-up. It also depends on what she's open for right now, if she's ovulating or not, if she is intoxicated or not, what is her current mood or status, if she's pissed at her boyfriend or not, if she's with people she knows or not, etc.

Truth of the matter is, for relationships at least, often they don't mind as long as you look good enough for her to open her doors to you enough that she might like what she hears from your lips. For casual sex however, it's another issue.
 

Lyri

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museofdoom said:
Since this is a predominantly male community, I figured talking about this here would result in the most interesting feedback. And I suppose I'm in the mood for a little controversy.
*shakes pompoms*

So you become friends with a female, and you really like her in that way. You spend time with her, you're kind to her, and you're always doing her favors. Eventually you pluck up the courage to confess your attraction and then GASP! she doesn't like you that way, and wants to stay friends! So now you go to all your buddies and cry that you were "friend zoned". Oh my goodness how dare that biotch not have any romantic feelings towards you!! You weren't a jerk to her so you were entitled to a relationship with her! And since your plans to get a little action were in vain, you cease being friends with the girl. And now the girl is left without a friend, and the knowledge that you were only friends with her in hopes of getting in her pants.
How dare someone be heartbroken right? I mean it's ok for women to turn into wailing balls of emotion or spiteful battleaxes when a guy rejects them but if a guy shows his feelings for a second it's not ok?
Oh look, you're one of those women.
On a more serious note I get what you're saying but it's not male exclusive.


Do you realize how ridiculous whining about being "friend zoned" is? And that if you really wanna be a nice guy, that you should be nice to girls even if you don't want in their pants?
Unless you've known this person as a friend before you approached them, then the likely case is that you made friends with them because you find them attractive and wanted to know more about them.
If she ends up rejecting you then your purpose is completely wasted, again this works both ways so lets not just keep pointing fingers at guys and shouting anti-penis slogans.


Also, when a girl says "I wish I could find a guy like you" but they don't want you, think of it this way: (stealing the metaphor from a friend of mine) Say you are out shopping and you want to buy a red pair of shoes. You get to the shoe store and find a nice pair of red shoes, but that particular pair of shoes isn't exactly suited to your taste so you continue looking and maybe you end up getting a pair of shoes completely different to what you were originally looking for. So when a girl says, "I wish I could find a guy like you" it means she likes your qualities, but isn't attracted to you. This does not make her a hypocrite, or a *****. So please stop whining and making yourselves out to be a victim of some heinous crime because the girl you like doesn't like you.
It's called tact and it's something that women seem to skip over, how would you find it if a fellow you had a raging lady boner for said "I wish I could find a woman like you"?
The implications that you're not attractive to that person is just crushing, you're not making it better by saying that either.
Sometimes you may want to be friends with them but lets be honest it hurts seeing them with other people and it's hard to get past, it's easier just to distance yourself despite your friendship. It's not that you don't want to see them happy either, you just don't want to feel like crap and be a downer.


Sorry for the little rant, I've just seen too many "friend zone" related memes and rage comics recently. 0___0
Yes. I've been on Reddit too
Tired and my brain isn't functioning, so I'm just going to jab some bold words in your quote and you're going to like it.
That's right, went there.
 

Idocreating

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The entire concept of the friend zone is such a farce to me. That a person, be they male or female, can expect to stay friends with a person after romantically rejecting them is such a flaw in character that I'd say the rejector, not the rejectee, is the more pathetic person for exercising such a careless decision.

Not saying it doesn't happen, am sure some people have been able to stay friends. But for the most part, the guy/girl you rejected will always feel something for you and always feel hurt by you. And anytime you state "Oh I wish I could find somebody like you" you may as well take a knife and stab them in the heart.
 

WingedIncubus

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Idocreating said:
The entire concept of the friend zone is such a farce to me. That a person, be they male or female, can expect to stay friends with a person after romantically rejecting them is such a flaw in character that I'd say the rejector, not the rejectee, is the more pathetic person for exercising such a careless decision.

Not saying it doesn't happen, am sure some people have been able to stay friends. But for the most part, the guy/girl you rejected will always feel something for you and always feel hurt by you. And anytime you state "Oh I wish I could find somebody like you" you may as well take a knife and stab them in the heart.
This.

You can be friends with an ex-boyfriend or ex-girlfriend, but only when the past is firmly put behind (and even then exes are ideal as hook-ups or cheating paramour just because of the rememberance of the feelings and the good times), but not when you are a jilted suitor.

It's rubbing salt to one's own eyes each time the rejected sees the rejectee. You are lower than low in her eyes. At least have the spine and the cojones to leave her away with keeping face.
 

easternflame

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I think the issue can be resolved easily, making the girl know you are interested. Not in a perv way, just, you know, I want something with you, do you? That would make everything better.

Also, there is one thing that you're not considering, people get mad when friendzoned in ocassions because they got rejected and it's weird to be around that girl.
 

WingedIncubus

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easternflame said:
I think the issue can be resolved easily, making the girl know you are interested. Not in a perv way, just, you know, I want something with you, do you? That would make everything better.

Also, there is one thing that you're not considering, people get mad when friendzoned in ocassions because they got rejected and it's weird to be around that girl.
"Give me your number, maybe we'll do coffee/hang around/do stuff." How complicated can it be? She ain't dumb; she'll know what you want from her.

Girls know that if you talk to her and she doesn't know you, odds are it's because you're attracted to her and want to get to know her more. Observe her from these first few minutes of interaction. If she smiles back, opens up, acts a little nervous (in a OMG do I look good way, not where is the police way), has fun, touches herself and/or volunteers a little bit about her, odds are she likes what she sees as well.

It can happen that guys literally "friend-zone" themselves by not asking the girl out after the first minutes, because they don't pick up the cues that the girl has sent to him that yeah, she does like what she sees, and from there it fizzles down. The girl figures either that he's taken, a wuss, or not interested and genuinely believes the guy wants to be a friend.
 

Smooth Operator

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Gromril said:
Heh nah, Iv'e never asked a woman If the rag Im holding smells of chloraform or anything like that.
Well then you have 10 thousand nerds here waiting with baited breath what this secret of your is...
 

Sean951

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Wow, I have clearly been using "Friendzone" wrong. I always used it to refer to people who did legitimately start as being friends, but then one decided they had some romantic feelings for the other, but the weren't reciprocated. That's more or less where I am, at least.

I was friends with her in Middle School, dated briefly and somewhat awkwardly in high school, we both moved on, matured, went to college, and would occasionally get a meal and hang out for a while. Then I realized I felt more attracted to her, but she was dating someone. I'm not that guy, so I kept my feelings to myself. They are still there, but I like having a very close friend a lot more than something potentially awkward, though apparently her mom and at least 1 friend noticed it. Either way, it's hard to go from a long term friendship to something more.
 

tobyornottoby

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Sarge034 said:
First, you are assuming that nice guys are none of those things.
If they are, they don't have to post rants on the internet that girls don't like them even though they're so nice. Nice Guys have this tunnel vision on being nice as the be-all end-all. Girls want a significant other, not a servant.

Sarge034 said:
Second... really? You are running with primal instinct on this one? Ok, than as a man I am hardwired by my primal instinct to spread my DNA to as many women as possible. How can I possibly want anything other than a sexual relationship? It might be because *GASP* I have overcome my primal urges to impregnate every woman I see because I am looking for more than just sex. Don't tell me I am more evolved than every woman on the planet.
Women also want things other than a sexual relationship. They want friendship.

Sarge034 said:
I asked for a chance to get to know the woman better to decide if I want pursue a relationship.
This is an interesting point, as I see you discussed it with others too (test drives). It's not very practical to say the least that attractive works on such an impulsive level, and doesn't work with such thought-out chances and decisions.
 

cobra_ky

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Sigh. I can't help but feel like i'm going to regret getting involved in yet another friendzone thread.

Lyri said:
How dare someone be heartbroken right? I mean it's ok for women to turn into wailing balls of emotion or spiteful battleaxes when a guy rejects them but if a guy shows his feelings for a second it's not ok?
Oh look, you're one of those women.
On a more serious note I get what you're saying but it's not male exclusive.
It is OK to be heartbroken. It is OK to feel bad when you get turned down. It is not OK to blame the person who turned you down, because you aren't entitled to a romantic relationship with them.

No, it certainly isn't male-exclusive, but it's predominantly men who complain about things like that and invent concepts like the "friendzone" to describe it.

Lyri said:
Unless you've known this person as a friend before you approached them, then the likely case is that you made friends with them because you find them attractive and wanted to know more about them.
If she ends up rejecting you then your purpose is completely wasted, again this works both ways so lets not just keep pointing fingers at guys and shouting anti-penis slogans.
If you make friends with anyone based solely on physical attraction to them, then you're a terrible friend.

Lyri said:
It's called tact and it's something that women seem to skip over, how would you find it if a fellow you had a raging lady boner for said "I wish I could find a woman like you"?
The implications that you're not attractive to that person is just crushing, you're not making it better by saying that either.
Sometimes you may want to be friends with them but lets be honest it hurts seeing them with other people and it's hard to get past, it's easier just to distance yourself despite your friendship. It's not that you don't want to see them happy either, you just don't want to feel like crap and be a downer.
Idocreating said:
The entire concept of the friend zone is such a farce to me. That a person, be they male or female, can expect to stay friends with a person after romantically rejecting them is such a flaw in character that I'd say the rejector, not the rejectee, is the more pathetic person for exercising such a careless decision.

Not saying it doesn't happen, am sure some people have been able to stay friends. But for the most part, the guy/girl you rejected will always feel something for you and always feel hurt by you. And anytime you state "Oh I wish I could find somebody like you" you may as well take a knife and stab them in the heart.
This only happens when you invest your entire emotional well-being in a romantic relationship with a person. Don't take rejection so personally; people generally only find themselves attracted to a tiny subset of the general population, so don't be surprised if you happen not to fall into that category for a particular person. Women aren't aren't a puzzle to be solved; there's no "optimal strategy" that's going to bag you any girl you want. Through no fault of your own, you simply have absolutely no shot with the vast majority of women in the world, so try not to let it get you down so much when one of them turns you down.
 

Auron225

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I dont have much experience with the friend-zone (dont have much experience with girls in general actually) - but I don't think all guys who complain about being friend-zoned are as malicious as you're (the OP that is) making them out to be.

True that some of them are just doing it to get into her pants, but for some guys, they dont have any other "moves" as such. They dont know how to get a girl any other way than being nice to her and so I empathize with them when the only way they can try to get her affection (which does only involve being nice) ends up in failure.

Having said that, this doesnt make it ok for them to call that girl a ***** and rant about her.
 

Lyri

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cobra_ky said:
It is OK to be heartbroken. It is OK to feel bad when you get turned down. It is not OK to blame the person who turned you down, because you aren't entitled to a romantic relationship with them.
I didn't say it was ok, I just said that people get crazy & emotional when heartbroken & rejected. Shit happens basically.

No, it certainly isn't male-exclusive, but it's predominantly men who complain about things like that and invent concepts like the "friendzone" to describe it.
Women eat icecream and cry to chick flicks, apparently. Of course they complain about it, just not with the same name but the rose is just as sweet.

If you make friends with anyone based solely on physical attraction to them, then you're a terrible friend.
How do you think you try and pull on nights out? Sorry but if you think that then you're pretty sheltered. I know women because of finding them attractive on nights out, couple of them I have a tonne in common with. There's nothing wrong with it, if you're sole intention is to just fuck someone and be done with it THEN you're a shitty friend.

This only happens when you invest your entire emotional well-being in a romantic relationship with a person. Don't take rejection so personally; people generally only find themselves attracted to a tiny subset of the general population, so don't be surprised if you happen not to fall into that category for a particular person. Women aren't aren't a puzzle to be solved; there's no "optimal strategy" that's going to bag you any girl you want. Through no fault of your own, you simply have absolutely no shot with the vast majority of women in the world, so try not to let it get you down so much when one of them turns you down.
Of course people emotionally invest themselves towards other people, it would be terrible of you not to do that if you were looking for a romantic relationship with someone. I wouldn't even consider dating my fiance if she wasn't at least a little emotionally invested when we met.
Some people handle rejection well & others get pretty stung by it, a friend of mine is one of those guys who doesn't meet a whole lot of women as he has a very "guy like" social life and he works a tonne.
He gets hit really, really hard by rejection and emotionally invests himself way too hard way to early, sometimes it's a fault but sometimes it's right. It depends on the people involved.
Had to edit my sloppy, sloppy tags and I also realised I had no actual post outside of the quote, so this is just filler text.
 

Blow_Pop

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Jan 21, 2009
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Just_A_Glitch said:
But what purpose does it serve to tell a guy who you know has deep feelings for you that they want someone so much like you, but isn't actually you? A girl can want that, sure, but why bother telling the guy in the first place? Especially worded like that. The argument the OP used, "And that if you really wanna be a nice guy, that you should be nice to girls even if you don't want in their pants?" can go both ways, you know. I can be friends with a woman without the overarching goal to be sex, but in what way is she being a good friend to the guy by saying, "You have all these redeeming qualities. Why can't I find them in someone more attractive?!"? It isn't pandering to a weak ego, its being a good person and being a good friend. Its just not something that needs to be said. Keep that between other people who aren't everything you want, minus one or two traits.

I've never gone up to a girl that I knew had a thing for me and said, "Wow, we have such a good time hanging out. You're funny and sweet and we connect on so many levels. Why can't I find somebody else like that?!" Its just rude and hurtful.
I actually have a friend who honestly is a nice guy. Yeah he talks to me about all the problems he has finding a girl to appreciate the nice guy qualities for longer than they usually do(of course I think his big problem with that is that he lives in LA and I've never found a girl from LA who really appreciates nice guys like him, they all want the assholes). But I've seen him in and out of relationships he is nice no matter what. Hell we had the "you're a nice guy and I like some of your qualities but you aren't what I'm looking for" conversation years ago(like 6 years ago I believe) and he and I are still best friends. But I told him in the "you're a nice guy and I wish I could find a guy like you but not you". His problem is more with me at least, is that he is too nice for me. I need a guy who will stand up to me and challenge me and he won't do that with me unless we're playing video games. After a while of knowing each other somehow the topic of us dating came up again and this time it was him who said the whole "why can't i find someone like you" speech. I think the people who use this speech might be saying it to some of the wrong people to say it to. He and I have both said it to each other but we both clearly know WHAT we want in a partner. Though my saying it didn't say a guy like you it was a person like you since I have no actual gender preference. If you're going to say something like that you need to actually sit down and explain to them what you mean by it. With me I want someone who is comfortable in themselves, a nice person, and isn't a doormat and who will challenge my opinions if they have different ones. For him it is a girl who isn't as dominant as I am. Well dominate, stubborn, as outspoken as i am. and loud. But yes a lot of self proclaimed nice guys are complete asses. Met plenty of them, have dated a few doesn't work out for me. I think people in general need to be more honest with each other. Not just women with men or vice versa but everyone. be upfront. I've actually used this line on a guy before "hey i think you are attractive but I'd like to be friends with you anyway". He didn't find me attractive but we had enough in common to be friends and still are friends. It can work but probably won't with everyone.....
 

General BrEeZy

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I haven't been in the "Friend-Zone" as far as I've ever known. I seem to have just come on too strong in the earlier years with a couple girls. Now for the most part, chicks just aren't interested in me.

My condolences to my fellow men out there who have been friend-zoned. Hang in there.