Captain Marvel or How Marvel does everything better than everyone else

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

Saw it last weekend, it was pretty good. I didn't totally love it, but it was a good romp, and I'm happy for the people who felt that it really spoke to them.

Also loved that one scene where our heroine was just plain pragmatic and didn't fall for some obvious bait that so many heroes (including Cap one time) tend to fall for.

Honestly, my only real concern is that Carol is OP as hell, and I'm wondering how (if she stays on as a full time Avenger) they can keep the narrative stakes in place considering her raw power. I'm not worried about Endgame, because Thanos is also suitably OP as hell. Just if she stays afterwards at her current level.

It's an MCU film, it's for everyone. Just like how every other Disney film is for everyone.

Maybe I can explain the "movie ain't for dudes" comment?

See, the movie's central conflict is one that appeals more to women, as it's something that a lot of women tend to feel in their lives.

I've seen plenty of guys scratch their heads at certain aspects of the movie and not like them, and for many of the women I know to love the movie for those same aspects.

The TLDR non-spoiler version is that it's not an underdog story at all.

Spoiler: Click for spoilerific discussion

Ok, so, a lot of superhero movies have the protagonist either face an uphill struggle and have to master their powers to beat it, or they have to earn their powers, or in general face a foe far far stronger than them and are the underdog in the story.

In CM, our heroine doesn't need to earn her powers. She's not the underdog. She already starts off having been super-powered to OP levels in her backstory by something she did. She is already a photon-slinging superhero by the start of the movie, and the conflict is that she's been held back and used by the bad guys for nefarious ends.

Basically the bad guys:
1) Kidnapped her and used their ability to manipulate memories to erase her past and gaslight her to make her loyal to them and think she was literally an alien like them.
2) Slapped a power limiter on her and told her "That thingy is actually what gives you your powers. WE gave them to you, and we can take them away if you don't play nice. You're nothing without us."
3) Continually told her to stop being herself (Snarky, aggressive, emotional at all) and to repress her humanity.
4) Turned her into a weapon, while telling her that another alien species was pure evil and needed to be destroyed, when those aliens are just trying not to get genocided for the crime of not wanting to submit to Kree rule.

So, the movie's conflict is about her learning she had a past life that was stolen, learning that the mooks she was slaughtering earlier are actually not evil (and having a suitable "oh god what have I done" moment), learning that the people she held in such high regard were just using her as a tool and lied to her AND kidnapped her, THEN learning she was being held back the whole time and breaking those chains, regaining the specialness she earned from her own actions before they stole her past. All the while learning that "hey, maybe I shouldn't disrespect species other than mine as lesser/weaker/dumber. Maybe I should actually learn to cooperate just a little".

Then she gets to use her full power, rapidly realize just how OP she actually is now that she's no longer being held back, and proceed to massively dunk on the genocidal maniacs who were using her as one of their personal attack dogs. Capped off by getting challenged to a hand to hand no-powers duel by the guy she looked up to most, who was doing most of the gaslighting, and her just going "I ain't got shit to prove to you" and not falling for the obvious trap.

For a lot of guys, it feels mary-sue-ish as she's already OP as hell and doesn't have to "earn" her power, and rarely ever gets seriously challenged by any of her foes.

For a lot of women, it feels refreshing because they also feel like what makes them exceptional is being repressed by people around them, and they enjoy the story of someone realizing they're already powerful and breaking the chains that other people have slapped on them.

It's not even pure "dudes are sexist and chained down this Strong Female Protagonist", as the strongest villain that engineered a lot of the chaining-down actually manifests as a woman.

So, yeah, the plot is something that's likely to appeal more to women than guys. Not saying that guys can't enjoy it, I certainly did.

It's kinda like how Rambo or Robocop can be enjoyed by women, but it's more likely to appeal to guys just based on the premise.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Top five for me, but that's opinions for you.

Then again, Larson is the first actor/actress I've seen in a while that wasn't doing low-level pantomime. The subtlety was refreshing.

I thought there was no character to her. She's just generically "determined", as is every female lead in the MCU that isn't Mantis.

 

[Abomination]

Maybe I can explain the "movie ain't for dudes" comment?

See, the movie's central conflict is one that appeals more to women, as it's something that a lot of women tend to feel in their lives.

I've seen plenty of guys scratch their heads at certain aspects of the movie and not like them, and for many of the women I know to love the movie for those same aspects.

So, yeah, the plot is something that's likely to appeal more to women than guys. Not saying that guys can't enjoy it, I certainly did.

It's kinda like how Rambo or Robocop can be enjoyed by women, but it's more likely to appeal to guys just based on the premise.

I totally understand having a films targeted demographic be female rather than male, that's totally a-okay.

What's not a-okay is saying that they don't care for the opinions of a certain sex/gender, because if the shoe was on the other foot we all know it would be cause for absurd levels of accusations of misogyny.

Make a film about whatever you want, dislike a film for whatever reason you want, love a film for whatever reason you want, angle a film to whatever audience you want, just don't be a hypocrite when it comes to criticism.

"It's not for you" was the call of most media before the early 2000s and it was quashed by gender egalitarians for good reason. Now it rears its head again. That's not cool. Sexism is sexism.

 

[Hawki]

Honestly, my only real concern is that Carol is OP as hell, and I'm wondering how (if she stays on as a full time Avenger) they can keep the narrative stakes in place considering her raw power. I'm not worried about Endgame, because Thanos is also suitably OP as hell. Just if she stays afterwards at her current level.

I think Thor might have more power at her at this point.

But that aside, as far as 'power levels' go, I'm left to ask, what the heck are Black Widow and Hawkeye meant to do against Thanos? Use sticks and harsh language? Because itty bitty bows and guns may as well be that.

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

Honestly, my only real concern is that Carol is OP as hell, and I'm wondering how (if she stays on as a full time Avenger) they can keep the narrative stakes in place considering her raw power. I'm not worried about Endgame, because Thanos is also suitably OP as hell. Just if she stays afterwards at her current level.

I think Thor might have more power at her at this point.

But that aside, as far as 'power levels' go, I'm left to ask, what the heck are Black Widow and Hawkeye meant to do against Thanos? Use sticks and harsh language? Because itty bitty bows and guns may as well be that.

I'm sure he'll have goons to beat up.

 

[Hawki]

So I see Brie Larson's comments have come up again. Guess I'll reiterate my past stance - the comments bother me, but not for the reasons that so many people have stated. It isn't that I feel I've been slandered against by virtue of gender and skin colour, it's that if we take this idea and run with it, any form of criticism can be dismissed based on the identity of said person doing the critiquing. Rambo and Robocop have already been pointed out as being targeted towards men, but it would be disingenous to say "I'm not interested in the perspective of girls."

Like, I get what Larson was saying (it's good to have diversity in media criticism), and I absolutely agree. But taking them as writ, we're left with the above idea and it's not one I can get behind.

I'm sure he'll have goons to beat up.

If they're anything like the goons in Infinity War, it still seems kinda out of reach for them. The goons gave Iron Man and Peter a run for their money after all.

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

I'm sure he'll have goons to beat up.

If they're anything like the goons in Infinity War, it still seems kinda out of reach for them. The goons gave Iron Man and Peter a run for their money after all.

Just point the pair of them at some Chitauri, same as they handled in Avengers 1. Thanos seems to still have plenty of them kicking around

 

[Kwak]

So Fury officially lost his eye to a scratch from a cat. It's pretty clear the MCU just makes shit up according to what is deemed a worthy throw-away joke. Great stuff.

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

So Fury officially lost his eye to a scratch from a cat. It's pretty clear the MCU just makes shit up according to what is deemed a worthy throw-away joke. Great stuff.

Do you know how much bacteria is on a cats claws? Cat scratches are no joke.

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

Top five for me, but that's opinions for you.

Then again, Larson is the first actor/actress I've seen in a while that wasn't doing low-level pantomime. The subtlety was refreshing.

I thought there was no character to her. She's just generically "determined", as is every female lead in the MCU that isn't Mantis.

Hey. That's not true. She was unfunny and smug also.

 

[Saelune]

'Im not sexist, but I only get mad when women say supposedly sexist things, never when men do though'.

What Brie said wasn't sexist, and people are just getting mad at her cause she is a woman. Just because some people don't like when people point out social injustices, doesn't mean we're wrong.

Maybe bigotry is just actually a big problem and pretending it isn't or that it doesn't exist is itself a huge problem.

 

[Trunkage]

Top five for me, but that's opinions for you.

Then again, Larson is the first actor/actress I've seen in a while that wasn't doing low-level pantomime. The subtlety was refreshing.

I thought there was no character to her. She's just generically "determined", as is every female lead in the MCU that isn't Mantis.

Hey. That's not true. She was unfunny and smug also.

Well, the men leads in the MCU are generically quippy. Except Black Panther, who is a bore and Shuri upstages every time. 20 movies of quipping just gets boring.

I'm personally glad they're trying something different instead of just relying on quips but it does lose it comedic value.

As to smug, I suggest that's more your response to Larsen tweet. Which, I'm going to remind everyone, she APOLOGIZED for and said she made a mistake

Because it's more important to focus on the mistakes rather apologies. We can never be forgiven for our misdeeds

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Top five for me, but that's opinions for you.

Then again, Larson is the first actor/actress I've seen in a while that wasn't doing low-level pantomime. The subtlety was refreshing.

I thought there was no character to her. She's just generically "determined", as is every female lead in the MCU that isn't Mantis.

Hey. That's not true. She was unfunny and smug also.

Fair enough, though I'd argue those two naturally branch off her dull sense of determination.

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

Top five for me, but that's opinions for you.

Then again, Larson is the first actor/actress I've seen in a while that wasn't doing low-level pantomime. The subtlety was refreshing.

I thought there was no character to her. She's just generically "determined", as is every female lead in the MCU that isn't Mantis.

Hey. That's not true. She was unfunny and smug also.

Well, the men leads in the MCU are generically quippy. Except Black Panther, who is a bore and Shuri upstages every time. 20 movies of quipping just gets boring.

I'm personally glad they're trying something different instead of just relying on quips but it does lose it comedic value.

As to smug, I suggest that's more your response to Larsen tweet. Which, I'm going to remind everyone, she APOLOGIZED for and said she made a mistake

Because it's more important to focus on the mistakes rather apologies. We can never be forgiven for our misdeeds

I've never read any "Larson tweet", I've not really paid attention to the controversy around it because I assumed (correctly it seems) that it was a few dribblers that the media was blowing out of proportion.

But her line delivery was smug. Look at the clips of her telling Fury that he asked a relevant question or when she destroys the juke box. If someone talked to me like that in real life I probably start avoiding that person.

 

[Trunkage]

Top five for me, but that's opinions for you.

Then again, Larson is the first actor/actress I've seen in a while that wasn't doing low-level pantomime. The subtlety was refreshing.

I thought there was no character to her. She's just generically "determined", as is every female lead in the MCU that isn't Mantis.

Hey. That's not true. She was unfunny and smug also.

Well, the men leads in the MCU are generically quippy. Except Black Panther, who is a bore and Shuri upstages every time. 20 movies of quipping just gets boring.

I'm personally glad they're trying something different instead of just relying on quips but it does lose it comedic value.

As to smug, I suggest that's more your response to Larsen tweet. Which, I'm going to remind everyone, she APOLOGIZED for and said she made a mistake

Because it's more important to focus on the mistakes rather apologies. We can never be forgiven for our misdeeds

I've never read any "Larson tweet", I've not really paid attention to the controversy around it because I assumed (correctly it seems) that it was a few dribblers that the media was blowing out of proportion.

But her line delivery was smug. Look at the clips of her telling Fury that he asked a relevant question or when she destroys the juke box. If someone talked to me like that in real life I probably start avoiding that person.

Fury keeps interrupting her investigation and if I got this moment right, is the exact point when, in Danvers mind, Fury is highly likely to be a double agent. There is a big shift in her attitude when she has to decide on completing the mission or helping Fury. She visibly groans in frustration, because its against her training. Then a new found respect for Fury develops after Coulson let's them go, that he inspires that sort of loyalty. Then another once she finds out about the Skrulls and again, has to fight her programming. Instead of charging head first like normal, she has to plan and manipulate the situation to her advantage.

She goes from an arrogant, mission orientation, laser focussed solider to a willing to listen, having people's backs, thoughtful, nuanced character that thinks through the situation rather than bashed like she used to, through a series of choices that goes against her training.

 

[Kwak]

So Fury officially lost his eye to a scratch from a cat. It's pretty clear the MCU just makes shit up according to what is deemed a worthy throw-away joke. Great stuff.

Do you know how much bacteria is on a cats claws? Cat scratches are no joke.

So I've heard...

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

Top five for me, but that's opinions for you.

Then again, Larson is the first actor/actress I've seen in a while that wasn't doing low-level pantomime. The subtlety was refreshing.

I thought there was no character to her. She's just generically "determined", as is every female lead in the MCU that isn't Mantis.

Hey. That's not true. She was unfunny and smug also.

Well, the men leads in the MCU are generically quippy. Except Black Panther, who is a bore and Shuri upstages every time. 20 movies of quipping just gets boring.

I'm personally glad they're trying something different instead of just relying on quips but it does lose it comedic value.

As to smug, I suggest that's more your response to Larsen tweet. Which, I'm going to remind everyone, she APOLOGIZED for and said she made a mistake

Because it's more important to focus on the mistakes rather apologies. We can never be forgiven for our misdeeds

I've never read any "Larson tweet", I've not really paid attention to the controversy around it because I assumed (correctly it seems) that it was a few dribblers that the media was blowing out of proportion.

But her line delivery was smug. Look at the clips of her telling Fury that he asked a relevant question or when she destroys the juke box. If someone talked to me like that in real life I probably start avoiding that person.

Fury keeps interrupting her investigation and if I got this moment right, is the exact point when, in Danvers mind, Fury is highly likely to be a double agent. There is a big shift in her attitude when she has to decide on completing the mission or helping Fury. She visibly groans in frustration, because its against her training. Then a new found respect for Fury develops after Coulson let's them go, that he inspires that sort of loyalty. Then another once she finds out about the Skrulls and again, has to fight her programming. Instead of charging head first like normal, she has to plan and manipulate the situation to her advantage.

She goes from an arrogant, mission orientation, laser focussed solider to a willing to listen, having people's backs, thoughtful, nuanced character that thinks through the situation rather than bashed like she used to, through a series of choices that goes against her training.

I think you're filling in a lot of blanks there. At the end of the film she's still arrogant,she's just stronger and not being controlled by the kree.

I don't remember there being any evidence of her being mission orientated laser focussed more so than a soldier normally would be. We see her getting told to control her power by Jude Law then that the Supreme Intelligence doesn't think she should be in Starforce then shes off on a mission anyway. We don't see her refusing to socialise with the rest of her squad to train or anything that would indicate that shes a super-focussed soldier.

If I remember she only listens to the skrulls in the first place because they hold a child hostage. She works with Fury because he wants to fight the skrulls and she wants to figure out her memories. To her, completing her mission and working with Fury are the same thing.

I dunno why I'm bothering though because you won't change your mind and I won't change mine. Avengers 4 is out this week and no one will remember this movie in a few years.

 

[Trunkage]

I think you're filling in a lot of blanks there. At the end of the film she's still arrogant,she's just stronger and not being controlled by the kree.

I don't remember there being any evidence of her being mission orientated laser focussed more so than a soldier normally would be. We see her getting told to control her power by Jude Law then that the Supreme Intelligence doesn't think she should be in Starforce then shes off on a mission anyway. We don't see her refusing to socialise with the rest of her squad to train or anything that would indicate that shes a super-focussed soldier.

If I remember she only listens to the skrulls in the first place because they hold a child hostage. She works with Fury because he wants to fight the skrulls and she wants to figure out her memories. To her, completing her mission and working with Fury are the same thing.

I dunno why I'm bothering though because you won't change your mind and I won't change mine. Avengers 4 is out this week and no one will remember this movie in a few years.

I'm bothering because I like to find out people's point of views. The point of talking is not to always to convince the other person to your way of thinking. It's to understand.

Now, sure, it can be disheartening when the person wants to dismiss you and claims that your just making stuff up. But that's just how it goes.

So, at the start, Danvers charges ahead of her team because she thinks she can finish the objective (i.e. arrogant). Jude Law knows what she is like and warns her not to do this. Even the Skrulls knows this, use her personality fault against her and her arrogance is what traps her.

Later, she plans an escape, using herself as a distraction. This wouldn't have happened if we had Danvers from the start of the movie. She's unimportant compared to what she's protecting. Now, you seem to be calling her arrogant becuase she's willing to take on all the heavy hitters. But she's buying time, not necessarily trying to win. It's no longer about her, it's about getting everyone to escape

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

I think you're filling in a lot of blanks there. At the end of the film she's still arrogant,she's just stronger and not being controlled by the kree.

I don't remember there being any evidence of her being mission orientated laser focussed more so than a soldier normally would be. We see her getting told to control her power by Jude Law then that the Supreme Intelligence doesn't think she should be in Starforce then shes off on a mission anyway. We don't see her refusing to socialise with the rest of her squad to train or anything that would indicate that shes a super-focussed soldier.

If I remember she only listens to the skrulls in the first place because they hold a child hostage. She works with Fury because he wants to fight the skrulls and she wants to figure out her memories. To her, completing her mission and working with Fury are the same thing.

I dunno why I'm bothering though because you won't change your mind and I won't change mine. Avengers 4 is out this week and no one will remember this movie in a few years.

I'm bothering because I like to find out people's point of views. The point of talking is not to always to convince the other person to your way of thinking. It's to understand.

Now, sure, it can be disheartening when the person wants to dismiss you and claims that your just making stuff up. But that's just how it goes.

So, at the start, Danvers charges ahead of her team because she thinks she can finish the objective (i.e. arrogant). Jude Law knows what she is like and warns her not to do this. Even the Skrulls knows this, use her personality fault against her and her arrogance is what traps her.

Later, she plans an escape, using herself as a distraction. This wouldn't have happened if we had Danvers from the start of the movie. She's unimportant compared to what she's protecting. Now, you seem to be calling her arrogant becuase she's willing to take on all the heavy hitters. But she's buying time, not necessarily trying to win. It's no longer about her, it's about getting everyone to escape

She's arrogant and head strong because of her powers though, we don't know if she did it out of selflessness because she doesn't have to, shes very rarely in any danger.

The one time she is at a disadvantage is when shes fighting on the skrull ship and has her fist-beams blocked. She solves the problem by brute force and getting stronger then from that point on she has the advantage over everyone she fights. She knows that because the Kree have told her that shes super strong but they control it. A great TWEEST would have been that shes NOT incredibly powerful and her strength IS her willpower, natural skills and bravery but even in the finale the only threat is to other people.

There's no "jump on a grenade" scene like Captain America had or depowered Thor facing the Destroyer to help his friends. Hell, Captain America wasn't even helping friends, its just to help squadmates who treated him like shit, but he still threw himself on that grenade because he doesn't want people getting hurt if he can help it. Captain Marvel helps the skrulls out of, as far as I can see, mostly guilt over her part in their persecution. Like when she was chasing down the skrull on the train if she'd witnessed a crime or someone in need of help and abandoned the chase to help, then that would have been enough to establish that she's naturally inclined to help people.

I'm not saying guilt isn't a good motivator, Spider-Man is motivated by guilt as well. The difference is that we KNOW Spider-Man will selflessly help people. He throws himself into a fire to retrieve the Vulture instead of letting him die. By comparison Captain Marvel basically slaughters her squad without hesitation. She doesn't try to reason with them or disable them to talk them around despite hugely overpowering them, she just kills them all. inb4 "but they were genocidal space nazis who cares?" Reminder; Gamora and Nebula were also working with/are (I think Drax says something about Gamora leading some of the 50% murder campaign, might be misremembering) genocidal space nazis and we all like them now, how do we know one of Carols squad wasn't in a similar situation? We don't because they're given no development so we don't feel bad when Carol butchers them effortlessly. It'd be like if Iron Man just straight away murdered Captain America at the end of Civil War. I'm pretty sure she even straight up says to Jude Law she's letting him live so he can deliver a message. Might also be misremembering that.

tl;dr Captain Marvel is still the worst, least developed character in an okay film

 

[Trunkage]

snip

Side question. Why is her arrogance so bad for her character? Over Stark's arrogance. Or Thor's. Or Quill's or Strange's. Fury's or Captain America's. I mean, Civil War wouldn't have happened if Stark and Cap weren't so utterly arrogant and they destroyed an airfield and got their buddies locked up.

Argoance is MCU staple. Except for Antman and Hawkeye. And maybe Hulk