CDPR on Cyberpunk 2077 backlash

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

Elegant for an 80's TTRPG, a bit unfortunate in the 21st century where you have amputees and disabled people using prosthetic limbs, hearing implants, pacemakers, etc.

As a long time player and GM, I can tell you that the Humanity loss doesn't become a problem until someone starts really overloading their body with more and more and more tech. Having a hearing aid, a pacemaker, or even a single limb won't affect your psyche, but having your entire body replaced with a weapon bristling frame aside from your brain and spinal cord...that fucks with your perceptions and psychologically does mess with you.

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

To me this is just stupid artifical controversy on both sides to get clicks. A few articles designed to trigger fanboys because that pulls clicks vs a bunch of youtubers defending it against the evil SJW hordes because its great fodder to get clicks from their anti-sjw audience.

I wonder how many alt righters praising Pondsmith also caught "If you want to do something brave against racism, tell your racist uncle at Thanksgiving to shut up!"

 

[Abomination]

Elegant for an 80's TTRPG, a bit unfortunate in the 21st century where you have amputees and disabled people using prosthetic limbs, hearing implants, pacemakers, etc.

As a long time player and GM, I can tell you that the Humanity loss doesn't become a problem until someone starts really overloading their body with more and more and more tech. Having a hearing aid, a pacemaker, or even a single limb won't affect your psyche, but having your entire body replaced with a weapon bristling frame aside from your brain and spinal cord...that fucks with your perceptions and psychologically does mess with you.

Yeah, there comes a point where enough parts of the body have been replaced that pain is no longer a thing and organs stop producing chemical agents. That will probably remove portions of one's "humanity".

Replacing appendages or granting sight/hearing/smell when those senses were otherwise inert is not going to mess with someone's psyche.

Then there's the whole "always jacked into the... web/surge/'verse/whatever-tech-term" that could really mess with someone.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Yeah, still counting the days to 2020 to get this sucker.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

For shame, all of you. I saw an article for this situation about a week ago or something but only now is someone bringing it up here?

Elegant for an 80's TTRPG, a bit unfortunate in the 21st century where you have amputees and disabled people using prosthetic limbs, hearing implants, pacemakers, etc.

As a long time player and GM, I can tell you that the Humanity loss doesn't become a problem until someone starts really overloading their body with more and more and more tech. Having a hearing aid, a pacemaker, or even a single limb won't affect your psyche, but having your entire body replaced with a weapon bristling frame aside from your brain and spinal cord...that fucks with your perceptions and psychologically does mess with you.

Yeah, there comes a point where enough parts of the body have been replaced that pain is no longer a thing and organs stop producing chemical agents. That will probably remove portions of one's "humanity".

Replacing appendages or granting sight/hearing/smell when those senses were otherwise inert is not going to mess with someone's psyche.

Then there's the whole "always jacked into the... web/surge/'verse/whatever-tech-term" that could really mess with someone.

I think this is a perfect example of someone making an assumption without looking into anything. I only know of the Cyberpunk Role Playing Game from the videos Spoony did of it but even with just that he made it very clear that total loss of humanity is meant to be the replacing a very large amount of your body with cybernetics. (Side note: There's actually a similar plot line in a manga I enjoy, Dimension W, where a person could not survive if too much of themselves was machine after the failing of what was to be the first human head transplant to a completely machine body. It's an interesting idea I think.)

 

[Abomination]

Like how is cdproject going to create a nuanced and thoughtful take on queer identities in a dystopian hellscape when they cant not look transphobic on Twitter for five minutes?

Is mentioning attack helicopters now a dog-whistle for transphobes?

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I did not say that anything is special about him being black that makes him more right. I mentioned it because those who usually do are now disregarding him. Never did I imply that him being black lends him or his argument more credibility, you just assumed I was doing that since that's where your head is at. You can show people being hypocritical in a person disregarding someone who they claim should be regarded more without agreeing that indeed they should be.

Considering your stance on these subjects, and you admitting you don't care about equality so long as you get your kicks, I'm gonna say BS.

I don't see how " whatever makes for a better game I support" leads to that conclusion. There's games like the last of us or horizon zero dawn that also get touted as being good for equality but I love them all the same because they're good games.


The key here is to not sacrifice your identity for equality. Every story can be told in an interesting way and I'm gonna welcome the manly redhead cave woman killing robot dinosaurs just as much as I'm gonna welcome the half naked berserker beauty killing demons (Velvet from Berseria is such a cool protag man...loving her more and more with each passing moment) if they're in as good games as they are.

Some people will stil complain if the good game isn't ticking their political tastes though, and that's flat out bad for games, as a good game ought be praised such that we get more like it, politics be damned.

 

[Abomination]

Like how is cdproject going to create a nuanced and thoughtful take on queer identities in a dystopian hellscape when they cant not look transphobic on Twitter for five minutes?

Is mentioning attack helicopters now a dog-whistle for transphobes?

"I identify as an attack helicopter" has been a transphobic meme for years

Ironically, in Cuberpunk 2077, an individual could potentially augment themselves enough to pass as an attack helicopter.

Though I do believe the attack helicopter originated in response to when the number of self-diagnosed gender identities started reaching the double digits. Or was it when people started identifying as other species/races?

 

[Abomination]

Still transphobia

Not really seeing it, it's possible to criticize the more fantastical gender identities while still respecting peoples right to transition between standard gender identities.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

It's dystopian, there are things in this setting that are supposed to make you uncomfortable. Saying that black guys being bad guys is racist stinks of itself as racism. I guess we better go back to Russian and Albanian gangsters to make everyone feel as though the villains are appropriately white.

In the TTRPG, said gang was a gang of white posers appropriating Voodou iconography to be extra scary. Cultural commentary.

Turning them into actual Haitian voodou gangters doesn't look great.

 

[Abomination]

Still transphobia

Not really seeing it, it's possible to criticize the more fantastical gender identities while still respecting peoples right to transition between standard gender identities.

That's assuming it's still the usage of the meme, something you've yet to provide evidence for.

You're alsp purposfully ignoring the other, harder to explain way tweets and only focusing on the single one you can try to dismiss

The OK sign is a dogwhistle to White Supremacy.

That some people have run with the attack helicopter meme and taken it far beyond its original invocation is an example of people being transphobic, it doesn't mean the term is transphobic. Context is king.

 

[Abomination]

It's dystopian, there are things in this setting that are supposed to make you uncomfortable. Saying that black guys being bad guys is racist stinks of itself as racism. I guess we better go back to Russian and Albanian gangsters to make everyone feel as though the villains are appropriately white.

In the TTRPG, said gang was a gang of white posers appropriating Voodou iconography to be extra scary. Cultural commentary.

Turning them into actual Haitian voodou gangters doesn't look great.

Many Haitians disagree, it seems.

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

Still transphobia

Not really seeing it, it's possible to criticize the more fantastical gender identities while still respecting peoples right to transition between standard gender identities.

That's assuming it's still the usage of the meme, something you've yet to provide evidence for.

You're alsp purposfully ignoring the other, harder to explain way tweets and only focusing on the single one you can try to dismiss

The OK sign is a dogwhistle to White Supremacy.

That some people have run with the attack helicopter meme and taken it far beyond its original invocation is an example of people being transphobic, it doesn't mean the term is transphobic. Context is king.

This copypasta was originally written by Team Fortress 2 user Guuse in 2014 on March 17th, and was added to his Pastebin. Guuse originally wrote the copypasta for use as spam by binding it to key terms in game chat rooms during arguments on gender identity politics. In December 2014, Guuse posted a claim of authorship of the copypasta to his recruitment page on the European Team Fortress Two site.

Source: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-sexually-identify-as-an-attack-helicopter

It seems far more likely that the Attack Helicopter meme was, and still is, transphobic, but was also used to make fun of otherkin, people who identify as non-human, when they became infamous.

I did not say that anything is special about him being black that makes him more right. I mentioned it because those who usually do are now disregarding him. Never did I imply that him being black lends him or his argument more credibility, you just assumed I was doing that since that's where your head is at. You can show people being hypocritical in a person disregarding someone who they claim should be regarded more without agreeing that indeed they should be.

Considering your stance on these subjects, and you admitting you don't care about equality so long as you get your kicks, I'm gonna say BS.

I don't see how " whatever makes for a better game I support" leads to that conclusion. There's games like the last of us or horizon zero dawn that also get touted as being good for equality but I love them all the same because they're good games.


The key here is to not sacrifice your identity for equality. Every story can be told in an interesting way and I'm gonna welcome the manly redhead cave woman killing robot dinosaurs just as much as I'm gonna welcome the half naked berserker beauty killing demons (Velvet from Berseria is such a cool protag man...loving her more and more with each passing moment) if they're in as good games as they are.

Some people will stil complain if the good game isn't ticking their political tastes though, and that's flat out bad for games, as a good game ought be praised such that we get more like it, politics be damned.

The complaints games get generally aren't about a specific game not ticking that box, but gaming, usually AAA, as a whole not ticking it. Frankly, even if you don't care about politics it must seem bizzare and downright lazy that most western protagonists are white dudes with brown hair. No redheads or blondes, they are all just variations of the same guy. Yeah, sure, there are a lot of white guys with brown hair walking around in reality, the decision to design a character that blends into every other character.

What we're calling politics is the fact that I'd like to play as a black character every once in a while. That women want to play as women. It isn't actually politics, we just want to see ourselves in games as more than just side characters or romantic interests. I don't think there's anything wrong with that or being disappointed in an industry that pretends I don't exist.

 

[Casual Shinji]

The key here is to not sacrifice your identity for equality. Every story can be told in an interesting way and I'm gonna welcome the manly redhead cave woman killing robot dinosaurs just as much as I'm gonna welcome the half naked berserker beauty killing demons (Velvet from Berseria is such a cool protag man...loving her more and more with each passing moment) if they're in as good games as they are.

Some people will stil complain if the good game isn't ticking their political tastes though, and that's flat out bad for games, as a good game ought be praised such that we get more like it, politics be damned.

Because even good things can have rough spots. Just as good games and movies can have points of contention, like occasional bad acting and wobbly dialoge, they can also have things that are just in really poor taste or racist or sexist. These are mistakes that need to be adressed same as techincal or narrative flaws, and ignoring these issues is what's flat out bad for games.

You seem to think that these things getting called out is the same as saying the game is bad, or that that's all the game is. Unless someone actually likes the questionble racist or sexist elements of a specific game, there's nothing wrong with saying these elements are problematic and need to be worked on. It is then up to the creator whether or not to take it to heart.

But saying these things shouldn't be questioned, I'm sorry, but that's just silly.

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

The "backlash" against Cyberpunk 2077 seems to be blown way out of proportion by a bunch of sinister reactionary ideologues the same way the backlash over... what was it, the trailer of the new Doom, was. It's people trying to create an imaginary enemy who hates artistic freedom so they can distract the public from the fact that they, themselves, are authoritarians.

Maybe that "backlash" only happens where I'm not looking. Maybe that ominous "Resetera" site that I never visit, because a site asking me to jump through that many hoops just so I can sign up can fuck right off. But my educated guess is that it's so minor it can't even be blamed on a vocal minority.

You can talk all you want about entertainment media being dominated by liberals and you may very well not even be wrong (Don't make the mistake of confusing liberals with leftists, though)but the discussion around popular entertainment media is mostly controlled by the fringe right. Discussing video games or mainstream movies has become a complete chore, simply because you get shouted down when you do it from anything other than a reactionary perspective.

Anyway, most criticism of the game I've seen so far was pretty constructive. A preview from Rock Paper Shotgun sticks out which pointed out, among some other things, that enemies belonging to a gang called "The Animals" seemed to be mostly black. The studio clarified that it is, in fact, not s predominantly black gang. If black NPCs were overrepresented in that particular section it'd be easy to replace them with white character models, considering they seem to be just random enemies. It was a good thing he pointed it out and it's easy to rectify.

The only other complaint I've read was about a sexualised advertisment for an energy drink depicting a transwoman with a prominent bulge and it's something I have no issue with. Even in our world advertisements shamelessly sexuakize people and for a considerably more cynical world like that of the game the advert seems actually rather tame. The picture is in bad taste but the game's obviously aware of that, it's not saying "Dude, hot dickgirl!"

Either way, as an authoritarian leftist I can assure you that media is not run by the authoritarian left. I sure wish it was but it isn't. The game is probably gonna be pretty great and no one will deny that, just because they have some grievances with some of the previews sociopolitical implications that may very well not reflect the full game.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

The "backlash" against Cyberpunk 2077 seems to be blown way out of proportion by a bunch of sinister reactionary ideologues the same way the backlash over... what was it, the trailer of the new Doom, was. It's people trying to create an imaginary enemy who hates artistic freedom so they can distract the public from the fact that they, themselves, are authoritarians.

Right? The whole shenanigan about the Haitian's and the weird ad in CP2077 was a thing for like two days when several gaming sites wrote about them, after that it died down and most of the hardcore "SJW" sites I visit barely registered it or talked about it. Yet the discussion about the "outrage" against CP2077 is still going strong. This thread is similar, with some people chiming in to say that they found it problematic, but the most active posters being those that call out the "outrage" against the game and being outraged about the outrage.

Personally, I don't trust CDPR enough in terms of writing quality to believe they won't end up with some really weird, unintended faux pas in terms of race, gender, sexism or ableism. With that said, I honestly don't care enough to debate it online nor will it stop me from getting the game if it turns out to be any good (which I'm much, much more worried that it won't be).

 

[Casual Shinji]

The "backlash" against Cyberpunk 2077 seems to be blown way out of proportion by a bunch of sinister reactionary ideologues the same way the backlash over... what was it, the trailer of the new Doom, was. It's people trying to create an imaginary enemy who hates artistic freedom so they can distract the public from the fact that they, themselves, are authoritarians.

Right? The whole shenanigan about the Haitian's and the weird ad in CP2077 was a thing for like two days when several gaming sites wrote about them, after that it died down and most of the hardcore "SJW" sites I visit barely registered it or talked about it. Yet the discussion about the "outrage" against CP2077 is still going strong. This thread is similar, with some people chiming in to say that they found it problematic, but the most active posters being those that call out the "outrage" against the game and being outraged about the outrage.

When's the last time you heard anything about Anita Sarkesian? Exactly; when she's brought up by people complaining about "SJW's".

The sad fact is that all of these YouTube channels have built their image on "SJW's ruin everything". So in order to be able to make at least one video per day they have to either regurgitate a once popular topic, like Sarkesian, or they need to make a huge fucking deal about one twitter post or news article/column that nobody would otherwise be aware of or would've forgotten about in a couple of days.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Still transphobia

Not really seeing it, it's possible to criticize the more fantastical gender identities while still respecting peoples right to transition between standard gender identities.

That's assuming it's still the usage of the meme, something you've yet to provide evidence for.

You're alsp purposfully ignoring the other, harder to explain way tweets and only focusing on the single one you can try to dismiss

The OK sign is a dogwhistle to White Supremacy.

That some people have run with the attack helicopter meme and taken it far beyond its original invocation is an example of people being transphobic, it doesn't mean the term is transphobic. Context is king.

This copypasta was originally written by Team Fortress 2 user Guuse in 2014 on March 17th, and was added to his Pastebin. Guuse originally wrote the copypasta for use as spam by binding it to key terms in game chat rooms during arguments on gender identity politics. In December 2014, Guuse posted a claim of authorship of the copypasta to his recruitment page on the European Team Fortress Two site.

Source: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-sexually-identify-as-an-attack-helicopter

It seems far more likely that the Attack Helicopter meme was, and still is, transphobic, but was also used to make fun of otherkin, people who identify as non-human, when they became infamous.

I did not say that anything is special about him being black that makes him more right. I mentioned it because those who usually do are now disregarding him. Never did I imply that him being black lends him or his argument more credibility, you just assumed I was doing that since that's where your head is at. You can show people being hypocritical in a person disregarding someone who they claim should be regarded more without agreeing that indeed they should be.

Considering your stance on these subjects, and you admitting you don't care about equality so long as you get your kicks, I'm gonna say BS.

I don't see how " whatever makes for a better game I support" leads to that conclusion. There's games like the last of us or horizon zero dawn that also get touted as being good for equality but I love them all the same because they're good games.


The key here is to not sacrifice your identity for equality. Every story can be told in an interesting way and I'm gonna welcome the manly redhead cave woman killing robot dinosaurs just as much as I'm gonna welcome the half naked berserker beauty killing demons (Velvet from Berseria is such a cool protag man...loving her more and more with each passing moment) if they're in as good games as they are.

Some people will stil complain if the good game isn't ticking their political tastes though, and that's flat out bad for games, as a good game ought be praised such that we get more like it, politics be damned.

The complaints games get generally aren't about a specific game not ticking that box, but gaming, usually AAA, as a whole not ticking it. Frankly, even if you don't care about politics it must seem bizzare and downright lazy that most western protagonists are white dudes with brown hair. No redheads or blondes, they are all just variations of the same guy. Yeah, sure, there are a lot of white guys with brown hair walking around in reality, the decision to design a character that blends into every other character.

What we're calling politics is the fact that I'd like to play as a black character every once in a while. That women want to play as women. It isn't actually politics, we just want to see ourselves in games as more than just side characters or romantic interests. I don't think there's anything wrong with that or being disappointed in an industry that pretends I don't exist.

My solution is an elegant one; I just don't play those games. I play interesting unique stuff like Nier and Asura's Wrath and Sekiro and the aforementioned Berseria. I don't complain about that situation, I just ignore them and go play things that appeal to me so I'll be happy. If anything, the people playing these games are the pitiable ones since their diet of games is very limited and they're missing out.

Also, as a brown haired Mediterranean guy I have never once in my life felt that I identified more because of looking like a character in a game. Trying to make yourself in a game is odd to me. In fact I find such a thing mundane and boring. If I have a chance I'll always pick something that is the exact opposite of myself. Like for example I was super happy you could play as a Qunari in the last dragon age and I was an orc in skyrim. I don't buy that you legitimately can't enjoy a game if you don't superficially share arbitrary physical traits with the protagonist for a second. If one really feels this way their tribal lizard brain is on constant overload and they need to reexamine how they see the world and life in general. Gaming is fantasy based on suspension of disbelief and imaginary situations. People with functioning empathy don't need to look like the people in games in order to associate with them. Hell, I often associate with other beings like dogs and robots and so on too, never mind people.


Finally, I see no point in asking Activision Blizzard to suddenly stop sucking and making a big deal out of that, it's better to focus that energy into positive examples of things done well, even if they have a couple fewer As behind them.

The key here is to not sacrifice your identity for equality. Every story can be told in an interesting way and I'm gonna welcome the manly redhead cave woman killing robot dinosaurs just as much as I'm gonna welcome the half naked berserker beauty killing demons (Velvet from Berseria is such a cool protag man...loving her more and more with each passing moment) if they're in as good games as they are.

Some people will stil complain if the good game isn't ticking their political tastes though, and that's flat out bad for games, as a good game ought be praised such that we get more like it, politics be damned.

Because even good things can have rough spots. Just as good games and movies can have points of contention, like occasional bad acting and wobbly dialoge, they can also have things that are just in really poor taste or racist or sexist. These are mistakes that need to be adressed same as techincal or narrative flaws, and ignoring these issues is what's flat out bad for games.

You seem to think that these things getting called out is the same as saying the game is bad, or that that's all the game is. Unless someone actually likes the questionble racist or sexist elements of a specific game, there's nothing wrong with saying these elements are problematic and need to be worked on. It is then up to the creator whether or not to take it to heart.

But saying these things shouldn't be questioned, I'm sorry, but that's just silly.

These sort of critiques feel irrelevant though.

Say you have a game with a racist scene or a sexist joke...well...is that scene good though? Is the joke funny? Gimme something here. Just telling me you're offended or something is over your personal line is UTTERLY meaningless in this context cause that's just your feelings we're discussing now and how sensitive to this or that crude subjects you are.

And no, it doesn't make those scenes automatically bad if they're offensive to someone with X unspecified tolerance for those subjects. Something can be offensive to everyone and still simultaneously be a good specimen of itself, even.

It's usually the case that people calling things racist or sexist in games conduct themselves as though they're criticizing the game when in fact they're just commenting on their personal tolerance of it in not a dissimilar fashion to how someone may find a horror game too scary to finish. It's a valid reason not to finish a game but nobody would say a horror game being too scary is a bad thing just because some folks lacked the grit to deal with it. I posit to you that the grit one needs to laugh at sexist jokes and what have you is much the same. They're not for everyone and they're juuust fine being that way to boot.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Yeah.

Not to mention the attack helicopter, did you just assume my-, and we will not be replaced tweets that give the developer/publisher as a whole a rather bigoted appearance.

Like how is cdproject going to create a nuanced and thoughtful take on queer identities in a dystopian hellscape when they cant not look transphobic on Twitter for five minutes?

Now you're assuming that people accept this ideology in the first place. The majority of people think all that queer identity whatever whatever is nonsense. Those who do believe it are precisely the ones the majority of us want nowhere near this game's development. I hope they do not create "a nuanced and thoughtful" whatever, I don't want this nonsense in the game. It doesn't matter whether or not one even agrees with the ideology, but modern leftist propaganda does not need to be in our games.

 

[Casual Shinji]

These sort of critiques feel irrelevant though.

Say you have a game with a racist scene or a sexist joke...well...is that scene good though? Is the joke funny? Gimme something here. Just telling me you're offended or something is over your personal line is UTTERLY meaningless in this context cause that's just your feelings we're discussing now and how sensitive to this or that crude subjects you are.

And no, it doesn't make those scenes automatically bad if they're offensive to someone with X unspecified tolerance for those subjects. Something can be offensive to everyone and still simultaneously be a good specimen of itself, even.

It's usually the case that people calling things racist or sexist in games conduct themselves as though they're criticizing the game when in fact they're just commenting on their personal tolerance of it in not a dissimilar fashion to how someone may find a horror game too scary to finish. It's a valid reason not to finish a game but nobody would say a horror game being too scary is a bad thing just because some folks lacked the grit to deal with it. I posit to you that the grit one needs to laugh at sexist jokes and what have you is much the same. They're not for everyone and they're juuust fine being that way to boot.

By that definition any critique is irrelevant. Saying a game's graphics are terrible while someone else claims that it's how it was intended or adds to the charm. Or how a game controls clunky and stiff, but no that just makes it feel more real. But even that is at least an argument and invites conversation on the matter. What you're suggesting is that if it regards sexism or racism in fiction people should just shut up, because it's their problem being offended. And if you're offended your opinion is somehow invalid.

Even if people calling out racist or sexist elements in fiction is them revealing their own personal tolerance, what's wrong with taking their opinion into account? Sharing opinions is generally how we grow and gain new insights. Shutting people down because they dare be offended by something is how society stagnates.

The horror comparison makes no sense because fictional horror by itself doesn't create or perpetuate negative views of specific groups of people, fiction that glorifies racism, sexism, or transphobia does. But hey, let's say it makes even a shred of sense, than it's prefectly valid to criticize a piece of horror fiction for being too obnoxious, i.e. overly shocking in its depiction of its horror themes.