Celebrate old Escapists! The war against the newbies has been won!

Hyrist

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Apr 5, 2005
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... Why would we ever consider this a good thing?

Adaptation to accommodate new, civil members of the community should always be the goal, should it not? I've been around for a long time but rarely do I post simply because I approach Escapist primarily as a reader. Much along the lines as the generation before me would frequently regular the newspapers or a favored magazine.

As such, I've kept to myself as far as the discussion community. It was only after the wake of the Gamergate debacle that I decided to toss my chip into the pile more frequently - and I retain my opinion that animosity and segmenting something that is quintessentially an entertainment medium that was designed to be inclusive is both puzzling and counterproductive - even more so when we're primarily consumers, hobbyists, and spectators of the medium.

So this sort of thread has me puzzled. Why again are we actively discouraging new members into the fold of a medium that started out small, niche, and desperate for some validation?

(Also find it rather peculiar that I have almost a half-decade or so over almost everyone here except LordLundar, and he seems to be of the same opinion as I am about this.)
 

Falling_v1legacy

No one of consequence
Nov 3, 2009
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Something Amyss said:
Falling said:
Wait. 2010 is considered old now? 2009, and I don't particularly feel like an old one.
5 years is a lot of time for most people to participate in an online forum. Hell, many of the ones I've frequented haven't survived that long. Which is probably my fault.
I guess that's so. I guess it's just that the main forum I frequent, the real oldies are from 2003, whereas 09/10 was a huge influx of new people (me), followed by even more probably peaking in 2012, and tapering off now. So while I feel like I have been around for awhile, you don't feel like a true veteran when there are people that have been around for a decade or even more.

But as to the OP. Didn't know it was a war, but I'm pretty sure we didn't start the fire. No we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Falling said:
I guess that's so. I guess it's just that the main forum I frequent, the real oldies are from 2003, whereas 09/10 was a huge influx of new people (me), followed by even more probably peaking in 2012, and tapering off now. So while I feel like I have been around for awhile, you don't feel like a true veteran when there are people that have been around for a decade or even more.
I was an active poster on a board from 1999 until like 2013, so I get that. But, I mean, join dates older than mine are kind of a rarity around here. And even dates a year or two after me. So 2010 does seem sort of veteran relative to this site.
 

Atmos Duality

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Hyrist said:
So this sort of thread has me puzzled. Why again are we actively discouraging new members into the fold of a medium that started out small, niche, and desperate for some validation?
Because politics.
Politics is the most destructive force known to mankind.

The Escapist's forms have had their share of issues before; mainly its infamous passive-aggressive "soft-trolling" behavior. But adding to that, is how intensely politically polarized the vocal gaming community is now.

It seems wherever there is action, there's passive-aggressive shitflinging along party lines (GG vs aGG is a daily occurrence in GID) and where there isn't controversy (like, actual game discussion) it's practically a ghost town.

Small wonder why there are so few new users sticking around; there's less little genuine interest in discussion, and more in playing ideological tug of war. New users are being driven off before they get established (save for the surge of ban jumpers; who already have an axe to grind).

Whatever burst of energy The Escapist (and others) enjoyed from the major controversies of last year is really winding down, and it's becoming clear how unsustainable this pattern is. The Escapist Forums (and likely the main site, sadly) are living on borrowed time methinks, just like so many other sites.
 

IamLEAM1983

Neloth's got swag.
Aug 22, 2011
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Yay, glorification of meaningless statistics!

Post counts and join dates typically get classified by my brain as "shit that's as trivial and useless as PSN Trophy lists, XBOX Gamerscore and Destiny Grimoire points".

Y'all are fun people, honestly. You aren't stats to flaunt around.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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DeanCain said:
*grabs sniper rifle*

Something Amyss said:
*pew pew*
WAR AIN'T OVER YET, OLDIES! US NOOBS ARE STILL KICKIN'!
Oh, right. A sniper rifle. You probably rely on quickscoping, too.

WolvDragon said:
How sad you want "newbies" to leave in some sort of stupid made up internet war no one thought existed.
The OP has stated their intent multiple times now. If you're disinterested in that, that's fine, but to call somethig they didn't actually say sad and attribute it to them is wrong.

IamLEAM1983 said:
Post counts and join dates typically get classified by my brain as "shit that's as trivial and useless as PSN Trophy lists, XBOX Gamerscore and Destiny Grimoire points".
Hey, you do NOT mess with my GS.

Y'all are fun people, honestly.
You take that back! Take it back now!
 

ToastiestZombie

Don't worry. Be happy!
Mar 21, 2011
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2012 isn't too late to the party, right?

But then again, being so relatively young (in age) and having only starting lurking internet sites around 2010 I've missed so many parties it's amazing. This is why I've never been into fighting games, MOBAs, Neogaf or MMOs.

Oh, I'm on Page 6? Guess I'm late again...
 

ToastiestZombie

Don't worry. Be happy!
Mar 21, 2011
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Hyrist said:
... Why would we ever consider this a good thing?

Adaptation to accommodate new, civil members of the community should always be the goal, should it not?
It should be, but it isn't, especially in gaming. It's why so many kids are flocking to DOTA/LOL, COD, Twitch and Youtube. Gaming just isn't very inclusive at all, both its culture and the games themselves.
 

Hyrist

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ToastiestZombie said:
Hyrist said:
... Why would we ever consider this a good thing?

Adaptation to accommodate new, civil members of the community should always be the goal, should it not?
It should be, but it isn't, especially in gaming. It's why so many kids are flocking to DOTA/LOL, COD, Twitch and Youtube. Gaming just isn't very inclusive at all, both its culture and the games themselves.
That's never been the case both historically and in the present - when you pay attention to the scope of Gaming verses any and all other artistic and entertainment mediums. Behind novels, we're actually one of the more progressive mediums. There is a problem with a certain genre and approach of modern Tripple A titles, but even those have been continually showing good forward examples of progress and exclusivity.

Culture wise, the issue with a subset of our communities is not one specific to only the gaming communities. Trolls and aggressive people exist at all levels of cyberspace and Cyberbullying is a medium-wide problem - and truly should be addressed as such. But as part of this problem 'gamers' have been stereotyped as the poster child of the cyber-bullying issue. But really this is a recent issue due to the advent and lack of proper oversight and control of online communities in general. Gaming has just been one of the driving forces of such networking, and, sadly, one of the more lax components in terms of policing.

You pair this off with the hypersensitivity of those who identify closely with video games as a hobby and the subset of geek culture that is still new and sore from the scrutiny it as a medium and its early adapting hobbyists during its infancy, and it comes as no surprise that it comes off as overly defensive when confronting any problem that tries label it as a source or cause.

That, of course, does not divorce it from the joint-responsibility- but it does explain why our community's reaction is so volatile verses harsh criticism, whether or not it is well placed.

This gets further compounded by the media's tendency to use sensationalism as a means of gathering attention (and through such attention, revenue). Well meaning or otherwise, saying something provocative in order garner attention. My biggest critsism of the "Gamers Are Dead" articles is that, as a group they attempted to separate themselves, and giving credit where it was due, make a call to their readership and the gaming community to divorce itself from the label 'gamers' as a means to separate the average hobbyist and core audience from the stereotype. This was a horrible narrative to take and should have been seen coming.

In no way would a column or organization in the 90's focused on an audience of Science fiction fans write an article called "Trekkies are Dead." In order to divorce Star Trek fans from the negative sterotypes of a subset of their genre, simply because Star Trek was becoming more widely accepted. The fact that was adopted was meant purely for shock value and to gather attention.

Understanding the history and context of the environment, the blow-back and resulting internal struggle (representative of the struggle between those that valued validation and protection from exploitation verse those who valued acceptance and progressive thinking - with the true problem egging both sides on) comes as no surprise, as there was already existing tensions boiling beneath the surface, most prominently between Consumers and major gaming Publishers who were (and continue to) exploit its customers for whatever dollars they can scarp together.

It was striking sparks to get attention, ignoring the fact that they were standing in a power-keg room with several barrels already spilled.

It's my speculation that collectively, we've approached all of these problems in a terrible way. Had certain gaming journalists written articles with the focus of trying to rally those who identified under the title of 'Gamer' in an effort to abolish the internet-wide problem of misbehavior and harassment commonly (and erroneously) associated with the title - the reaction could have been the opposite extreme.

Likewise, it behooves the communities themselves to not be baited in the negative cycle so easily. Gaming communities and games development have spearheaded Charities, community movements, assistance and emotional support for its members in times of loss and crisis, civil rights, and powerful consumer advocacy that are all ultimately healthy for humanity in general. And it would benefit itself to stand behind those accomplishments and let them speak louder than the nay-sayers and accusers.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So in summary:

Trolls and Harassers - Exist as an element in the entire internet, not just gaming, and should be addressed as such.

Gamers and Game Culture - Inclusive but overly Gun-shy. They want validation, they want acceptance, they want belonging. They generally believe that the medium should be for everyone and specific subsections of each community at the same time, which causes internal conflicts to try to balances these naturally opposing values. They are highly sensitive of being exploited in any way, (for good reason) which leads to difficulties of adapting new concepts for fear of it being a Trojan Horse.

Game Development and Publishers: A mixed bag. Some are very forward thinking, others take little risks. Some are after a vision or motive, others are just out to make money. The industry itself right now is in a bloated, awkward phase that everyone keeps fearing or expecting to crash, but so far hasn't. It's difficult to keep in mind that many of the people in all levels of this field are passionate game fans as well.

Game Journalism: Passionate and opinionated. Often more diverse than given credit, has to balance the need for good relationship and validation from the publishers/developers and the consumers while at the same time turning enough of a profit to self-sustain and grow. Has the same failings of any news medium.

___________________________________________________________

I would highly recommend looking at "In Defense of Video Games" from the Game Overthinker series. In many ways it acknowledges our failings while looking at our blessings, and I join the call it makes to embrace our diverse, accepting roots as well as our current gems in our community to spearhead a more positive narrative and movement throughout the industry.

Believe me, I know that's a difficult struggle, especially seeming it is contrary to the narrative our world tends to take in terms of media coverage and conversational discourse. But out of any grouping, Games Media has a strong shot of archiving it. If we can agree to adapt it as mainstream.


This philosophy of mine is why I'm opposed to unilaterally pressing on new members of the community based on join date. We should be more inclusive and celebrating those we do keep.
 

Belaam

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Hyrist said:
My biggest critsism of the "Gamers Are Dead" articles is that, as a group they attempted to separate themselves, and giving credit where it was due, make a call to their readership and the gaming community to divorce itself from the label 'gamers' as a means to separate the average hobbyist and core audience from the stereotype. This was a horrible narrative to take and should have been seen coming.

In no way would a column or organization in the 90's focused on an audience of Science fiction fans write an article called "Trekkies are Dead." In order to divorce Star Trek fans from the negative sterotypes of a subset of their genre, simply because Star Trek was becoming more widely accepted. The fact that was adopted was meant purely for shock value and to gather attention.
What I got from most of the "gamers are dead" articles was that so many people game now that it is a pointless identifier. I literary don't know a person in my family who doesn't play video games in some form, whether they be complex RPGs or quick, time wasting Tetris-esque games. "Hi, I'm a gamer" is just as useless as "Hi, I'm a driver" or "Hi, I'm a TV and movie watcher"..


This philosophy of mine is why I'm opposed to unilaterally pressing on new members of the community based on join date. We should be more inclusive and celebrating those we do keep.
I would definitely agree that "We aren't attracting new members" isn't something to be cheered.
 

MrHide-Patten

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I check in very now and again for the weekly ZP and Liana's stuff but as others have said, I've stopped stalking the forums as I once did.
 

Hyrist

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Belaam said:
What I got from most of the "gamers are dead" articles was that so many people game now that it is a pointless identifier. I literary don't know a person in my family who doesn't play video games in some form, whether they be complex RPGs or quick, time wasting Tetris-esque games. "Hi, I'm a gamer" is just as useless as "Hi, I'm a driver" or "Hi, I'm a TV and movie watcher".
This is a valid point when phrased the way you do. But we do get people saying that they are Trekkies, even today though that leans towards the older generation. We have Whovians if we want to get more recent. Harry Potter fans may identify with their favorite Hogwarts house. Soon we'll be getting into more popular discussions on which side the fans lean on Marvel's Civil War arc.

It's almost supporting of my original argument that 'gamers' are a more accepting bunch when it comes to fandoms when you think that really, the moniker itself covers the entire spectrum of games and there can be various kinds of gamers all capable of accepting one another under the same general hobby identifier. At our root, we started as a niche interest and now have grown to become a simple household thing.

My criticism of the articles was the uniformity of that message that the identifier was useless, as you say, and that they were trying to justify abandoning it by citing all the negatives associated with it. They took it into the opposite of my recommended course of action - citing how broad our identifier is, embracing that fact as part of how we can be accepting and open, and using it to unify those that do to help clean up the mess that commonly gets associated with it.

Instead the way the articles were written ended up having the opposite effect - we feel more divided now, more jaded, and we're struggling against even more misbehavior on all fronts.

Anyways, viewpoint wise, I understand the perspective you have on the article. But I fundamentally disagree with the article on several points and that their attempt to divorce themselves and their audience from the identifier was in error, much the same way as some choice 2009-2010 members here are trying to divorce themselves from newer adapters.

Over lengthy attempt to draw parallels, in short. Neither approach is ultimately healthy for the overall communities they are referencing.
 

FalloutJack

Bah weep grah nah neep ninny bom
Nov 20, 2008
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*Blink*

Sorry, there was a war? I was just punching people and getting drunk.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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FalloutJack said:
*Blink*

Sorry, there was a war? I was just punching people and getting drunk.
You must have blacked out.

I mean, what you managed to do with the ferret and the chainsaws was a work of art. A shame you missed it.