China: We're Beating the Pirates

[Li Mu]

Well, my basic attitude is that the only way to deal with the issue would be to effectively go to war with China, because short of that they have no real motive to stop what they are doing, which is why it continues.

You are a perfect example of one of the many things wrong with the US.

"We tried one or two things but they didn't work, SO LETS BOMB THE FUCK OUT OF SOME CIVILIANS!!!!! MAKE THEM DIE!!! I WANT BABIES TO EXPLODE IN A SHOWER OF BLOOD! GOD SAVE AMERICA! EVERY COUNTRY SHOULD DO AS WE SAY BECAUSE WE ARE RIGHT!"

great job.
Actually, that's the same attitude the British Empire had and look at how many friends they made...

As Montgomery once said;

Rule 1, on page 1 of the book of war, is: "Do not march on Moscow". Various people have tried it, Napoleon and Hitler, and it is no good. That is the first rule. I do not know whether your Lordships will know Rule 2 of war. It is: "Do not go fighting with your land armies in China". It is a vast country, with no clearly defined objectives.

 

[Li Mu]

China is just... such a horrible country.

Have you ever been there? That's a rather racist remark to make based entirely upon one piece of information.

Lets look at Detroit. I've been to Detroit and can confidently say that I've also been to third world countries which had less obvious poverty than that city. I mean, I was on the highway and little kids with torn clothes were trying to sell hand made necklaces to people at traffic lights! But I wouldn't go as far as to say, "Detroit is a terrible place....America is just...such a horrible country."
That would be extremely unfair and an uneducated comment to make.
Detroit does not represent the qualities of America or its people in the same way that capital punishment doesn't represent China or its people.
Also, do I really need to point out that the US also has capital punishment? Should I look down my nose at those 'barbaric and evil' Americans because my country stopped executing people decades ago? No, I shouldn't.


I have lived and traveled extensively in China and I have to say that it is one of the safest places I have ever lived. I was in a small village in WuYiShan and had the children of this village (who are far from wealthy) buy me ice cream. I argued against it and attempted to buy them ice cream but they refused. They considered me a guest in their village and insisted on treating me. (I should point out that a village in China still tends to have a population of 200,000+ people. So don't think of little wooden huts.) Most Chinese are genuinely good people, the likes of which you can also find in every country. They have the same problems, trials, loves and goals as anyone else.

I could bore you with a dozen such stories, but I wont.

In short, most Chinese are just trying to make their way in the world. They are enthusiastic about how well their country is doing right now and they really do hope for a better life. It could be considered a mirror of the American dream. This 'Chinese dream' revolves around getting a good education (which is why Chinese study like nothing I've ever seen before) and then getting a good job and improving their life.

They don't want to invade anyone. They don't want to interfere in the business of others. You don't see them demanding a war with Iraq or America. They are very much focused on their own problems.


Also, the Chinese government is a pretty flawed beast, but what government isn't? The Japanese government is actually more corrupt than China's. But Japan is 'our friend' so we tend to ignore that fact. Lets not even pretend that the governments of the US, UK and Europe are free of corruption.

Actually, China is moving towards a democratic government. It has been stated by several party members. But they will do it slowly and at a pace which keeps their system stable. To do it quickly would result in a similar collapse the Soviet Union had. Of course, many western countries would love to see such a collapse, especially those who owe money to China. If China collapsed it would write off the billions of dollars owed to them.

China will have a major political change. They have to, the people know it and the government know it. It will probably happen in our life time, but it will take a decade or two to do.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

They don't want to invade anyone. They don't want to interfere in the business of others. You don't see them demanding a war with Iraq or America. They are very much focused on their own problems.

Let me know when they do something about their oppressive leadership that murders its own citizens and views freedom of speech in the same light we see high treason.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Also, do I really need to point out that the US also has capital punishment? Should I look down my nose at those 'barbaric and evil' Americans because my country stopped executing people decades ago? No, I shouldn't.

China executes about 25 times more people per ten million than the U.S. The Chinese government murderers activists and imprisons innocent people on a daily basis. I dare you to hold up a Free Tibet sign out front of a government building. Just make sure you do your will first.

The U.S. and China aren't even comparable.

 

[Li Mu]

Let me know when they do something about their oppressive leadership that murders its own citizens and views freedom of speech in the same light we see high treason.

SOPA = destroying freedom of speech in the US.

Australia is actually the worst country in the world for imprisoning Child immigrants in detention centres.

That's right, number one. Australia has come under severe criticism for what has been called an inhumane practise. These children are imprison for undefined lengths of time simply for the crime of being dragged by their parents to Oz. Children as young as 6.
Even China doesn't do that.

What about the internet censorship bill which Stephen Conroy is attempting to pass? It would put Australia's internet filtering on a worse level than China's. That's right, it would actually be WORSE than China. (I've seen the list of potentially banned sites and it does come out worse)

Again, since you have no idea what you are talking about I shall give you a bit of information.
People in China are frequently critical of the government. There are news paper articles which are also critical of the government. In day to day life people voice their concerns about what is happening and they don't get arrested or imprisoned.

For sure, there are numerous occasions where the Chinese government decides to be one huge dick and censor EVERYTHING!!!! Ai Wei Wei is a good example.
I've been to rock concerts only to find that the band has been pulled because the local government didn't like their content. These things indeed happen, I wont deny it.
But you ignorantly talk as though the entire population is under constant threat of imprisonment, which is simply not true.

China executes about 25 times more people per ten million than the U.S.

That is actually speculation. There are no real statistics concerning how many people are executed in China. The assumed 'statistics' were made by an American governmental body from what I remember. Not that they would be biased in any way...ahem.

 

[Tadd]

So how's google dealing for you guys?
OH WAIT

"OH WAIT" what? We use google fine over here; but it's .hk not .cn
How's the internet censorship over there for you guys? PIPA, etc (actually, what happened with that?)

As I've mentioned before, there has been a crack-down on pirating over here, I've witnessed it and felt it. Dodgy, fake DVD/game shops are now a rarity, a few years back I could practically find one on every road, at 5-6 yuan a pop (thats like 50-60p for you Brits maybe a dollar for the americans).

Don't get me wrong, they can still be found, if you know where to look.

I guess my point is, don't be too quick to jump on the "China-is-bad-because-of-what-the-media-says" bandwagon.

Did you know, the Escapist first refused to allow me to make an account here, because I registered from China? (That's the actual response I got where I enquired as to why I was refused registration). Food for thought.

 

[Li Mu]

Interestingly, there is a list of 'Perceived Corruption'. Of course, such a thing is hardly the most scientific as it is based on how people 'perceive' their country and other countries to be.

But number one (the least corrupt) was New Zealand. Go Kiwis!
Oz was 8th, Canada 10th, UK 16th, US 24th.
China was waaay down in 75th, but was still ahead of countries like Greece, Bulgaria, Peru, Albania, India, Argentina, Mexico...etc

Poor Russia, all the way down in 143rd.

So how's google dealing for you guys?
OH WAIT

"OH WAIT" what? We use google fine over here; but it's .hk not .cn
How's the internet censorship over there for you guys? PIPA, etc (actually, what happened with that?)

As I've mentioned before, there has been a crack-down on pirating over here, I've witnessed it and felt it. Dodgy, fake DVD/game shops are now a rarity, a few years back I could practically find one on every road, at 5-6 yuan a pop (thats like 50-60p for you Brits maybe a dollar for the americans).

Don't get me wrong, they can still be found, if you know where to look.

I guess my point is, don't be too quick to jump on the "China-is-bad-because-of-what-the-media-says" bandwagon.

Did you know, the Escapist first refused to allow me to make an account here, because I registered from China? (That's the actual response I got where I enquired as to why I was refused registration). Food for thought.

Unfortunately this is part of the problem. People who live in their little bubbles, having never stepped outside of their own yard, tend to be the ones to make the biggest assumptions about other nations.
It's a bit like the Cold War, when the Soviets all believed that the American's were all evil money hungry fiends who would leave vast portions of their population starve to death. The American's were all told that the Communists were all evil monsters with horns and tales.

Neither the average American or average Russian had any real idea as to what the other was like, so they made big assumptions.
Today is no different. People get their idea of what China is like from things they heard on Fox news and the like.

As I said, the last few Japanese Prime ministers have had strong links with the Yakuza. I forget the name (although if anyone is interested I can look it up) but one of Koizumi's predecessors actually had a father who was a high ranking Yakuza. He became leader of Japan due to the money and support which came from organised crime. His father then became a member of government too and was called the 'tattooed politician'.
The entire government is corrupt and run by mafia money, but we don't think a bad thing about that.

If a Chinese government official would do the same thing it would be in all the papers for weeks on end. That's just how it works I guess.



Oh yeah, I should add...

Porn is viewable in China. :-D
But if Stephen Conroy gets his way in Australia, it wont be there.

 

[hazabaza1]

So how's google dealing for you guys?
OH WAIT

"OH WAIT" what? We use google fine over here; but it's .hk not .cn
How's the internet censorship over there for you guys? PIPA, etc (actually, what happened with that?)

As I've mentioned before, there has been a crack-down on pirating over here, I've witnessed it and felt it. Dodgy, fake DVD/game shops are now a rarity, a few years back I could practically find one on every road, at 5-6 yuan a pop (thats like 50-60p for you Brits maybe a dollar for the americans).

Don't get me wrong, they can still be found, if you know where to look.

I guess my point is, don't be too quick to jump on the "China-is-bad-because-of-what-the-media-says" bandwagon.

Did you know, the Escapist first refused to allow me to make an account here, because I registered from China? (That's the actual response I got where I enquired as to why I was refused registration). Food for thought.

Huh, I heard a while back that google was totally banned in China. Apologies for the ignorance of my part.
From what I know all the PIPA and SOPA stuff is dying out, luckily enough.

 

[deshorty]

As a resident in China, I have but one thing to say to this and that is: Are you serious? You aren't beating the pirates! Do you know what is set up not a block away from where I live? A fake DVD shop (a shop to buy fake DVD's that is). One of millions. A little bit beyond that? A fake game store. The government cracked down a tiny bit by blocking things like thepiratebay, but honestly? Piracy here has gotten even worse.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

lol

Wait, let me check the Human Development Index.

Well, look at that! Seems it's been Norway, Australia and Sweden in the top three spots quite often. Now, let's find China on the list. Oh, what do you know, they're behind almost every other major developed country every single year. Funny how that works out. But I'm sure it's a fantastic country :/

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

So how's google dealing for you guys?
OH WAIT

"OH WAIT" what? We use google fine over here; but it's .hk not .cn
How's the internet censorship over there for you guys? PIPA, etc (actually, what happened with that?)

As I've mentioned before, there has been a crack-down on pirating over here, I've witnessed it and felt it. Dodgy, fake DVD/game shops are now a rarity, a few years back I could practically find one on every road, at 5-6 yuan a pop (thats like 50-60p for you Brits maybe a dollar for the americans).

Don't get me wrong, they can still be found, if you know where to look.

I guess my point is, don't be too quick to jump on the "China-is-bad-because-of-what-the-media-says" bandwagon.

Did you know, the Escapist first refused to allow me to make an account here, because I registered from China? (That's the actual response I got where I enquired as to why I was refused registration). Food for thought.

Huh, I heard a while back that google was totally banned in China. Apologies for the ignorance of my part.
From what I know all the PIPA and SOPA stuff is dying out, luckily enough.

Google China is available, just heavily, heavily censored.

 

[Li Mu]

lol

Wait, let me check the Human Development Index.

Well, look at that! Seems it's been Norway, Australia and Sweden in the top three spots quite often. Now, let's find China on the list. Oh, what do you know, they're behind almost every other major developed country every single year. Funny how that works out. But I'm sure it's a fantastic country :/

And yet they are still far from bottom. Also, China is not a first world country. Everyone knows this and nobody has ever tried to claim otherwise, so I'm not sure why you are comparing their Human Development Index with more established first world countries.

Each province of China is the size of a small country to the rest of the world. If you look at the eastern provinces you will see that they have a very high standard of living, comparable to that of many first world developed countries. Unfortunately much of the western provinces are still rural and undeveloped, which is what brings down the average. (In fact, eastern China is only slightly behind Australia in his HDI)


It has never claimed to be first world. It's slowly getting there, but it definitely hasn't made it. It certainly has a first world economy, but as we all know, economies move at a different speed to social development.

If you expect a country with 1.3 billion people to improve it's social standards in just 10 years then you are simply more stupid than you appear.
If you look at the social and economical growth of China over the past two decades you can clearly see that it's the fastest growing nation in the world. But as I said, it still takes time. It will get to the level of a first world country, but it will take many many more years of social change to do so.

But that still doesn't make it a terrible country and nor does it make it's people bad.
Again, you have never been there as a tourist or lived there as an expat, so you really have no idea what you are talking about.

I am not saying (nor will I) that China is a perfect place. It has a multitude of problems and indeed the government does do some pretty stupid things, but so do other countries. We have US police macing innocent peaceful protestors. We have the Australian government trying to restrict the internet. We have the German government kicking out foreigners who cannot find a job quick enough (despite being a legal resident for many years). So we cannot say that China is a barbaric nation and we are the shining light of civility, it's just not true.
China's treatment of the Xinjiang and Tibetan people is disgusting, but so is America's continued embargo of Cuba and refusal to allow them to join in the 'Summit of Americas' despite now having a better human rights policy than many other central and South American countries.

Concede that you don't know what you're talking about and we can end this pointless discussion.

From what I know all the PIPA and SOPA stuff is dying out, luckily enough. Google China is available, just heavily, heavily censored.

Again, not entirely accurate. I would say that from experience 90% of the internet is still available. Facebook, Twitter and Youtube are blocked, although there are Chinese equivalents (Tudou and Yokou are actually better than Youtube IMO since the general quality of videos are much higher. Far less YouPoop crap)
There are several Chinese social networks also available, although I never signed up so I don't know how good they are.

Again, most foreign online news outlets are available. A few were banned several years back, but I haven't had problems seeing ANY major UK news site. The only one I know which is banned is the Deutschewelle site, although I have no idea why. Wikipedia is fine with the exception of some editing of the Mao article.

Sometimes websites will go on and offline for no apparent reason. In general my life was no worse for not having access to Facebook.
I would not advise checking Wikipedia for it's list of banned websites in China as it's about 5 years old and most of those sites are now accessible.

Blogs were also banned for a period and I think Blogspot still is, but others such as Livejournal are fine to use. Every year they release their control over the internet.

So yet again we find that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Care to add more?

Edit;
Sorry, I thought I'd put up the statistics for HDI for eastern China and comparisons...

Shanghai; 0.908
Beijing; 0.891
Tianjin; 0.875
(plus 11 other provinces over 0.8)

United Kingdom; 0.863 (below eastern China)
United States; 0.910
South Korea; 0.897

So yes, while the western provinces (especially Tibet) are low in their HDI the more developed parts are comparable with the west. Hu Jintao is currently putting billions into the west to try and elevate their way of life, so hopefully things will improve for them in the coming years.

 

[jklinders]

i think they mean something different when they say "beating"

Glad to see I was not the only one to attribute the word "beating" in that way. This is China after all.

 

[josemlopes]

Im sorry, what?

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Again, you have never been there as a tourist or lived there as an expat, so you really have no idea what you are talking about.

Cool assumption. Too bad it's wrong. You know what they say about assuming things.

Also, China is not a first world country.

Your defense to my "China is a bad country" argument, is to tell me China isn't even first-world? lolwut. I'll assume you're referring to the modern concept of first world and not the actual definition (first-world, second-world and third-world are all terms created by the U.S. during the cold war to group the world according to alignment, from ally, to neutral, to enemy respectively) so, pray tell, how China not being a first-world country makes it better? That's like saying it's not so bad that the dog pissed on the rug because it's seventeen years old and riddled with disease; yeah sure, it explains a lot, but you've still got a dog pissing on your carpet.

The government consists of murderers and dictators who sensor whatever they feel like (because there's no one stopping them) and control the nations media at a whim, their legal system is beyond repugnant and wouldn't fly for a second in a nice country and the's virtually no middle class with the money dived between the very rich and the poverty stricken.

Your pushed to work your fingers to the bone for a wage half that of a nice country. Health system? What health system? Conformity isn't an option or a choice, but a lifestyle enforced. The communist ruling class use fear and force to ensure the mass of lower class citizens never speak out. The military and the police have almost unquestioned and unchecked power to "quell unrest."

For one of the oldest nations on Earth, China sure is a world behind.

Nazi Germany in all but race.

You can tell me your opinion all you want, but I'm fairly certain we will never agree.

 

[Daveman]

Now they just need to work on all the other breaches of copyright and intellectual property and we'll be fine.

http://www.cracked.com/article_19742_the-5-most-insane-examples-chinese-counterfeiting.html

 

[Yan007]

I'm currently on my second year working here in China. I live up North in a rich city. Li Mu is spot on on his descriptions of China although I would add to his comments.

I hold an ESL Degree and was a teacher for a short time in Quebec (Canada) before coming here to work. My experience both at private and public schools has shown me that the education system here is, to put it nicely, lagging behind. I plan to do a Masters on comparative education and what I see here is often frustrating and saddening. While my students do work extremely hard to get good grades, the system is built in such a way that what they produce will never be good enough. Students go to private schools after their regular school hours to learn more about English, music and so on. You would think this to be the greatest thing ever, but unfortunately for the vast majority here an education is a means to an end and more often than not the end is getting a good job (good meaning well-paying) so the learning itself has little to no meaning and intrinsic value. Some would probably argue that people have the same goal in Canada for their children, but the adage "money doesn't buy happiness" has a resonating truth to it in Western societies while here in China money has become the end-game goal of life for many. Unfortunately, most won't make as much money as they hope they would or they will hate their job/life. It should be noted that the same thing happens in our societies to many who make money their goal in life. Still, I don't think it is entirely fair to judge Chinese people on moral grounds on this because being rich is a relatively new issue here and like anything else people need time to adjust.

Students get the bad end of the stick though and must always jump through hoops for approval (and often love, unfortunately). This leads to a lot of stress and frustration, especially when the big test for universities is not too far. I'm pretty sure that this culture will change eventually (in the mid/long-term) and that schools here will someday create lifelong learners, but that certainly is not the case right now. I also think we can learn from what is happening today in China to look at our own schools and wonder if what we are doing with them is really in line with the kind of future we wish our children to experience.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

China is beating the pirates. It only took 18,633 civilian casualties, 3 extinct river species, the increase of CO2 presence to 340 PPM in Beijing, a 30% upsurge of infant femicide and the torture of 8 foreign nationals, but they're beating the pirates.

That seems reasonable. Small price to pay for less DRM, amirite!

 

[kouriichi]

Down 38%? Considering you dont actually know the number of pirates out there, id say that number is probably far lower.

Then again, i dont really trust most statistics. You cant trust people with numbers. People tend to be..... stupid.
"The smartest scientist who cant change a tire is still the stupidest person stranded in the desert." Not sure who said it, and if no one said it, then let it be known i said it.

Anyway, back on topic. Trying to "beat" pirates will never work. You need to moderate the pirates. Telling them all "Downloading is illegal, and were gunna arrest someone after several warnings", isnt the most threatening thing ever. And even if it was, they arnt going to listen. You need to find the reason they pirate in the first place, and fix that.

Games cost to much? Make games cheaper. Minecraft is the biggest example of this. Produced by a single person, for no cost but his own free time. Make a game people want to pay for, and it will sale like hotcakes. It helps if the game is cheap to purchase, and the smaller the budget people have to work with, the more innovation has to be bred. Torchlight 2 is going to be a good example of this when it hits the shelves.

Captcha is "sharp stick". Good to poke pirates with, not so great when they poke back though.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

It will sale like hotcakes.

How does one tell others their hotcakes are selling well?

/divide by zero