Civil Unrest in Kazakhstan plus Russia sending Troops.

Seanchaidh

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you can literally have fascist street violence with support from the United States (and its media) in a country and it's like oh yeah, you know, the people there really want economic liberalism, that's why some of them are going to Colombia
 
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Avnger

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you can literally have fascist street violence with support from the United States (and its media) in a country and it's like oh yeah, you know, the people there really want economic liberalism, that's why some of them are going to Colombia
We're still waiting for you to provide any actual evidence of this* other than you wanting it to be...

*explicitly the "street violence" being done solely by "fascists" and the US providing material support to the protestors
 
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tstorm823

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You believe that refugees from a country that is under sanctions designed to punish the populace and also suffers shortages because capitalist businesses deliberately underproduce is people fleeing 'socialism'? That's weird.
When capitalists stop trading with people, they chase after the capitalism... you think that is a point in socialism's favor, eh?
 

Seanchaidh

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We're still waiting for you to provide any actual evidence of this* other than you wanting it to be...

*explicitly the "street violence" being done solely by "fascists" and the US providing material support to the protestors
In Venezuela? Do your own research

When capitalists stop trading with people, they chase after the capitalism... you think that is a point in socialism's favor, eh?
This is one of the dumbest things I've read today.
 

Generals

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you can literally have fascist street violence with support from the United States (and its media) in a country and it's like oh yeah, you know, the people there really want economic liberalism, that's why some of them are going to Colombia
Now now, why do you pretend disliking Fascists? You are the biggest pro fascist on this forum and blindly defend the only actual Fascist superpower. You can't both love the Fascist Chinese Party and pretend to be against fascism. It doesn't work like that.
 

Satinavian

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you can literally have fascist street violence with support from the United States (and its media) in a country and it's like oh yeah, you know, the people there really want economic liberalism, that's why some of them are going to Colombia
The GDR would probably have been a better example then. People fleeing because they are sick of all the shortages, sick of all the planned economy based mismanagement and sick of seeing consistently higher living standards in otherwise similar capitalist countries was widespread enough to bleed the country dry.
 

Thaluikhain

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We're still waiting for you to provide any actual evidence of this* other than you wanting it to be...

*explicitly the "street violence" being done solely by "fascists" and the US providing material support to the protestors

Seanchaidh didn't say "solely" or use the term "material" there, mind.

Ok, there was an implication that the fascists and the US were a big part of it, can't speak to that, but there certainly would be some fascists at it, even if they aren't the minority, and the US and its media is going to be rather dubious at best in how it responds to this.
 

Avnger

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Seanchaidh didn't say "solely" or use the term "material" there, mind.

Ok, there was an implication that the fascists and the US were a big part of it, can't speak to that, but there certainly would be some fascists at it, even if they aren't the minority, and the US and its media is going to be rather dubious at best in how it responds to this.
Fair enough (and something I'd realized after posting), but he hasn't shown that fascists make up even a meaningful minority, let alone what he's implying.

I'll also agree that the US and it's media are likely to take that path as well simply because of the geopolitical reality, but the point is that he's making the claim they already are without any facts supporting it beyond his pre-determined opinion.
 

Silvanus

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Now now, why do you pretend disliking Fascists? You are the biggest pro fascist on this forum and blindly defend the only actual Fascist superpower. You can't both love the Fascist Chinese Party and pretend to be against fascism. It doesn't work like that.
I have an intense dislike for the CCP, but it's not fascist. Fascist does not just mean authoritarian.
 

Generals

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I have an intense dislike for the CCP, but it's not fascist. Fascist does not just mean authoritarian.
No it means: Authoritarian, Ultra Nationalist, Racist and adopting state capitalism. All fit the CCP. And that's just on the surface, if you dig a bit deeper you will see many more similarities.
Why so many people like to fool themselves is beyond me, they check all the frigging boxes. Is it to make people feel better about the fact they buy goods and services from a Fascist state?

Let me actually ask you this: what are the meaningful differences between China and a Fascist state?
 
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Seanchaidh

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Silvanus

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No it means: Authoritarian, Ultra Nationalist, Racist and adopting state capitalism. All fit the CCP. And that's just on the surface, if you dig a bit deeper you will see many more similarities.
Why so many people like to fool themselves is beyond me, they check all the frigging boxes. Is it to make people feel better about the fact they buy goods and services from a Fascist state?

Let me actually ask you this: what are the meaningful differences between China and a Fascist state?
Well, to list a few;

* Fascism obsessively pursues economic self-reliance ("autarky"), whereas China pursues extremely extensive reciprocal trade connections throughout the world.
* Fascism pursues the imperial conquest of other countries. China annexed Tibet in the 1950s, and continues to aggressively threaten Taiwan, but has not actually invaded another sovereign country in 70 years.
* Fascists intentionally whip up racism and xenophobia among the population, and use it to create an "us-vs-them" siege mentality. The CCP, meanwhile, tends instead to hide and deny its racism and violence (such as against the Uyghurs), even from its own people.

Of course, none of this has stopped historical communists from referring to each-other as fascists. Various Soviet figures referred to the CCP as "social fascist".
 

Generals

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Well, to list a few;

* Fascism obsessively pursues economic self-reliance ("autarky"), whereas China pursues extremely extensive reciprocal trade connections throughout the world.
* Fascism pursues the imperial conquest of other countries. China annexed Tibet in the 1950s, and continues to aggressively threaten Taiwan, but has not actually invaded another sovereign country in 70 years.
* Fascists intentionally whip up racism and xenophobia among the population, and use it to create an "us-vs-them" siege mentality. The CCP, meanwhile, tends instead to hide and deny its racism and violence (such as against the Uyghurs), even from its own people.

Of course, none of this has stopped historical communists from referring to each-other as fascists. Various Soviet figures referred to the CCP as "social fascist".
1) Yes and No, they are effectively economically colonizing third world countries to ensure their self reliance. Heck they even buy land which they than exploit solely with Chinese workers.And now they are ensuring they can get those resources to the mainland with chinese made infrastructure. While it's not a real annexation factually it is getting close to it.
And let's be honest here, it's just the modern version of annexation. We no longer live in the early 20th century. History has now shown colonization and invasions are extremely costly and often don't yield the results which are expected. This was not the case back than when many countries still held colonies and major powers didn't have to have to fear a nuclear holocaust. China is just doing what needs to be done for its autarky in a modern world.

2) They did invade Tibet, stolen maritime waters and indeed still threaten Taiwan and consider annexing the latter as key to "restore Chinese greatness". Right now they are also still at stage of "invading" their own country trying to fully Han-ise it and fully taking control of Hong Kong for instance. And said above, invading countries now is not the same as back when A.H. and B.M. were alive. Also note that Franco wasn't keen on invasions either, yet he's widely considered a Fascist.

3) They don't hide it internally at all. Anti Uyghur racism is spread quite actively, how else do you think they can justify what happens there? The Han ethnicity and culture is actively being idealized as well. The violence may somewhat be hidden but the fact they want to culturally get rid of them is not. What China is actively trying is hiding it from the rest of the world, not the Han population.
Also, Chinese propaganda does love to us "us vs them" mentality with the "them" being the west.

And let's not pretend Fascists actively used the violence they used as publicity either. For example, Information about the death camps was only purposely released into the wider population when the Nazi's started losing in order to make the population fear retaliations and fight to the end.
 
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Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

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You believe that refugees from a country that is under sanctions designed to punish the populace and also suffers shortages because capitalist businesses deliberately underproduce is people fleeing 'socialism'? That's weird.
I'm not going to argue anything about socialism, in this argument I don't really care. However you're implying the Venezuela economy crashed because of American manipulation. Sanctions were not the thing that caused the economy to collapse. The collapse happened because of poor economic planning and over dependents on oil.


I don't care what you have to say for socialism or your hate boner for the United States (which to be fair is justifiable to have) but don't try to rewrite history to fit your argument.

Also why are we talking about socialism and Venezuela in a thread about the protests in Kazakhstan.