CliffyB: Epic Must "Drag" the Industry Into the Next Generation

[ablac]

I'd just like to remind people that this is the same person who thought that Fatal Frame - a horror game - needed a multiplayer aspect.

We can handle the next generation just fine without him.

We will be fine without you as well. You didnt read what he said there and made similarily ignorant and unhelpful comments there as well. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/117256-Bleszinski-Japanese-Devs-Need-To-Stop-Ignoring-Multiplayer - just for anyone who missed it and please read the whole thing this time. The Unreal engine is responsible for a damn lot of games and it keeps costs low due to it already having many things covered for developers. They have a powerful engine with plenty of tools able to make a game right out of the box and they get it much cheaper than what would need to be spent to build something which could produce the same results. This sort of thing is important and since the Unreal engine is the top dog right now then yes he has a right and responsibility to make his next one useful enough to help bring gaming further forward technologically. People shouldnt hate him because he is essentially saying that they are working to making game development technology much much better.how could that be a problem with anyone?

 

[ablac]

Hey, if you want to be doing those kinds of things like exploring the universe, start developing for the PC customers who actually have bought the cards capable of doing that next level crap, not something whose strangely specific limitations actually made the "high definition" remake of silent hill 2 to look several times shittier because the ps3 couldn't work with the same types of visual effects in the original.

i mean it's just fog for pete's sake

Consoles set the bar and they make the PC more accessible over time as keeping up isnt as costly. To advance gaming you really need to advance consoles as thats where the games which have the funding to take advantage of better tech reside.

 

[ablac]

Why do I always feel like punching a badger every time CliffyB opens his mouth?

Careful brah, his dad owns a dealership!

OT: Cliff B. do the world a favor, stop talking, and keep making games about shooting people from behind walls. It's what you're good at.

Dear Namels, stop talking until you understand the industry to realise what he is saying is completely true. It is not a difficult thing to learn but your arrogance to say such things despite your ignorance is astounding.

 

[Isalan]

The only thing improving graphics achieves is too highlight the other drawbacks that games regularly suffer. No matter how pretty the game is, there will always be a terrible story, disconnected controls or grindy, samey gameplay waiting round the corner to beat the bump mapping off them.

It doesn't matter if your car is a Bugatti Veyron, if its got dustbin lids for tyres and a sheet of plywood for a windscreen its still not gonna do you much good.

 

[ablac]

Why do I always feel like punching a badger every time CliffyB opens his mouth?

Careful brah, his dad owns a dealership!

OT: Cliff B. do the world a favor, stop talking, and keep making games about shooting people from behind walls. It's what you're good at.

Dear Namels, stop talking until you understand the industry to realise what he is saying is completely true. It is not a difficult thing to learn but your arrogance to say such things despite your ignorance is astounding.

What he is saying is true? Shoehorning in bad multiplayer where it doesn't belong? Creating an experience where single-player is second to multiplayer map packs and expansions?

The industry will be a better place without Cliff B's "vision"

You cant actually believe he said that. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/117256-Bleszinski-Japanese-Devs-Need-To-Stop-Ignoring-Multiplayer one again here is the link. Go and read what he said. All of it. He states that multi player shouldnt be forced in or takced on, however it could be a nice addition to plenty of games coming out of Japan at the moment and would certainly help them sell better. Considering they dont sell very well over here this is a serious issue to the gaming industry. He said that it shouldnt always be versus but player to player interaction in SOME games would be better for the games. For example if Vanquish had a co-op mode. The game is exclusively single player and due to this and its length many gamers, according to him and he is correct, view it as a second hand purchase or a rent for a weekend rather than a day 1 new sale, which means they actually make money. Essentially because its pretty short it isnt worth its full price if its just single player and it isnt worth keeping either. WHat is wrong with his suggestion? He isnt demanding it he is merely suggesting multiplayers inclusion in some form would boost sales. He has made millions with multi player focused games, and there is nothing wrong with a multi player focus, therefore he has the authority to suggest they mimic it to have success over here. Ive already stated but EPIC owns and makes the Unreal engine. This is licensed by many devs to make games as it is extremely powerful and comes with enough tools to make a game out the box. This reduces cost and thus makes high quality games possible for those who cant afford to make an engine iun house or create everything for a game from scratch. What he is saying here is that their next engine must be highly advanced so that when consoles upgrade the jump will be tremendous and this will help both PC and console as the average technical quality of games will be much higher very shortly after consoles launch, consoles suffer on launch of not seeming too advanced from their predecessors for a number of reasons I wont go into. Nothing he said was ever wrong, you are willfully ignorant of this and instead choose to criticise someone who seems to be genuinely trying to better the industry. Your criticism is unjustified and born from ignorance. You probably havent read this far as reading things doesnt seem your forte but ill just say that you need to stop acting like a child. You and your attitude is helping to hold gaming back.

 

[ablac]

Sigh... you'd think people here would also pick up that Epic would also respond on feedback from their various UE3 licenses and improve the editor side of things too.

There's more to UE4 than graphics, and people in this thread are missing a lot of what he's saying.

For instance, texture popping: UE3 supports texture streaming to lessen how long the game is displaying a loading screen, so it can load the textures on the fly as you move throughout the level. If it does happen, it is a fault of the DEVELOPER for overloading the level with a lot of high resolution textures and models, not giving it enough time to load what it needs (especially off the slower optical disc instead of HDD). It is especially prevalent if you immediately start the player in a highly detailed starting area, instead of a more bland one and take advantage of the streaming system to load more in the background.

What Cliff is implying about dragging the industry into the next generation, is improving the hardware with things like mandatory HDD for game installs, that way it speeds up load times vs. loading off the much, much slower optical disc. And larger RAM capacity in both system and video RAM, to reduce to need to have a lot of level streaming volumes so the engine can load and swap textures and portions of the level as you play.

Another thing about improved graphics and speeding up development time is that with a much more powerful engine and hardware backing it up, you can spend less time having to adjust lighting on a level. You could switch to dynamic lighting completely, doing it on the fly and not have to make multiple passes of the level in whatever scenarios are required, baking different lighting and shadow maps, and wasting storage space for said shadow maps. Heck, not having shadow maps can speed up aforementioned texture popping too, as it is one less thing to load.

If you've ever mucked with the UDK, one of the most boring, lengthy things one can do is to hit the "Build Lighting" option then walk away for a drink, food, play another game, raise a kid from birth to graduation, then it's done.

The level designer or artist can make the level, place a handful of lights, instead of dozens of lights to handle all the main, reflected, and back lights, and hit play right away. Speed up iteration process, less time and money wasted on development time.

You'd still need render meshes over skipping them and just using the detail mesh though, a good artist can fake a lot using decent textures, but textures are much larger than mesh information.

And they were just talking graphics! I can't wait til more information on the editor shows up, and if there is any news on a UDK4 release!

If anyone missed this then look at it, he knows way more than me and shows just why he deserves to be heard and why the average resonse is shameful.

 

[SanguineSymphony]

The High price of production seems to have lowered the bar on everything besides graphics this gen -writing, gameplay, art design etc... This just seems like another way to increase production costs.

Of course at that point the only devs/publishers that can compete in the market are the gigantic AAA studios such as Epic... OH.

 

[ablac]

Why do I always feel like punching a badger every time CliffyB opens his mouth?

Careful brah, his dad owns a dealership!

OT: Cliff B. do the world a favor, stop talking, and keep making games about shooting people from behind walls. It's what you're good at.

Dear Namels, stop talking until you understand the industry to realise what he is saying is completely true. It is not a difficult thing to learn but your arrogance to say such things despite your ignorance is astounding.

What he is saying is true? Shoehorning in bad multiplayer where it doesn't belong? Creating an experience where single-player is second to multiplayer map packs and expansions?

The industry will be a better place without Cliff B's "vision"

A) You cant actually believe he said that. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/117256-Bleszinski-Japanese-Devs-Need-To-Stop-Ignoring-Multiplayer one again here is the link. Go and read what he said. All of it.

B) He states that multi player shouldnt be forced in or takced on, however it could be a nice addition to plenty of games coming out of Japan at the moment and would certainly help them sell better. Considering they dont sell very well over here this is a serious issue to the gaming industry. He said that it shouldnt always be versus but player to player interaction in SOME games would be better for the games.

C) For example if Vanquish had a co-op mode. The game is exclusively single player and due to this and its length many gamers, according to him and he is correct, view it as a second hand purchase or a rent for a weekend rather than a day 1 new sale, which means they actually make money. Essentially because its pretty short it isnt worth its full price if its just single player and it isnt worth keeping either.

D) WHat is wrong with his suggestion? He isnt demanding it he is merely suggesting multiplayers inclusion in some form would boost sales. He has made millions with multi player focused games, and there is nothing wrong with a multi player focus, therefore he has the authority to suggest they mimic it to have success over here.

E) Ive already stated but EPIC owns and makes the Unreal engine. This is licensed by many devs to make games as it is extremely powerful and comes with enough tools to make a game out the box. This reduces cost and thus makes high quality games possible for those who cant afford to make an engine iun house or create everything for a game from scratch. What he is saying here is that their next engine must be highly advanced so that when consoles upgrade the jump will be tremendous and this will help both PC and console as the average technical quality of games will be much higher very shortly after consoles launch, consoles suffer on launch of not seeming too advanced from their predecessors for a number of reasons I wont go into.

F) Nothing he said was ever wrong, you are willfully ignorant of this and instead choose to criticise someone who seems to be genuinely trying to better the industry. Your criticism is unjustified and born from ignorance. You probably havent read this far as reading things doesnt seem your forte but ill just say that you need to stop acting like a child. You and your attitude is helping to hold gaming back.

A) I read it. The ignorance and arrogance is displayed mirrors yours very nicely.

B) It's an interesting take from somebody whose recent greatest achievement is a game that sacrificed any longevity (or conherence) in its single player campaign to try and copy CoD and Halo. Pardon me if I take it with a grain of salt.

C) Except that the mechanics that make Vanquish unique (the quick change weapons and the sliding mechanic) would not work well, if at all, in a multiplayer area. Perhaps as an online Co-op, but that really wouldn't extend the gameplay at all. Competitive multiplayer, like the kind Cliff has in all of his games, would be a waste of time since all the mechanics would have to be thrown out the window.

D) Many of the games that come out of Japan don't need or want a Call of Duty experience. Bayonetta would not have been useful with a multi-player aspect. Resonance of Fate didn't need it either. Disgaea 4 doesn't need it, even though it has bare bones multiplayer, no one uses it.

E) Except that the Unreal engine became outdated years ago. Secondly, graphics don't need to increase anymore, since any real visual difference would be negated by a price jump to $70 or $80, which might actually KILL the non-AAA or indy industry.

F) Please keep insulting me. It leaves little doubt over who spends their time playing Gears of War on XBOX Live and who doesn't.

Competetive multi player does not make a game a copy of COD or Halo.That last point made no sense. IS it supposed to be some sort of slight, that I play these games and therefore I am inferior? Please do answer though Someone sopetty is a rare sight even in thsi thread. A lack of these engines will raise prices. It becomes more expensive as games need to, generally, have a certain level of graphical quality to be attractive to consumers. This goes as much for Indy as Triple A. This makes it cheaper to do so therefore reducing prices. Graphics and technology can improve and thus should. However this betrays the other advantages of things like the unreal engine. It comes with tools, im not that involved in these things though I quotes someone not long a go who explained all of this, which make making games in general much much easier. This reduces time and thus cost. If every developer had to make their own engine in house then costs would soar, especially in the smaller scene which relies on these sorts of things, and quality would diminish as well as they are not all capable of creating such impressive tech. Of course the unreal engine is becoming obsolete, they are making a new one because of this. He said that games should not have a tacked on experience but some may benefit sales wise and gameplay wise from a multi player aspect, if you read it you would understand that he said this and stop claiming that he wants all games to have it. He accepts that some games dont need or want multiplayer, he is merely stating that multi player help sell games, helps make new sales and stop pre-owned ones. Japan isnt selling many games over here and even those sales are falling, I think, so he shoudltn be attacked for simply trying to help. He didnt brag, he didnt mock. He is trying to help and people didnt criticise his opinion constructively they just stamped their feet and screamed at him for having the gall to try and help. why? Maybe they are just too fucking immature to understand that the industry doesnt revolve around them and their specific tastes and that if they want their games then they need to stay viable commercially. This viability is fading because people dont view the games as worth buying in such a way that it benefits the makers. If you cant accept that there is a market for multi player focused games then all hope has been lost as that seems to be the case. Vanquish was an example, he wasnt offering to make it but simply said that its short length and being solely single player meant that it wasnt worth it new and there was little value in keeping it. Im angry at you for your ignorance, your unhelpfulness, your lack of constructive criticism and your arrogance. You seem to believe that because you personally dont enjoy the games he makes then he is objectively wrong about everything and cant help anyone else. This is in spite of the boat loads of cash he has made and the fact that he is in fact trying to help the industry improve. How is it right that someone tries to help and they get shouted at and insulted? If you disagree thats fine but say so in a matter which means something and proposes a better alternative. He is trying to help the industry and you are not, you are just whining.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

No Cliffy, that is not what gamers want. We want you to innovate on gameplay and storytelling, not graphics. They look fine now, making them look any better will be pretty unnoticeable at this point. Not only that, but dev costs will go out of control if you do this. Stop being stupid.

In conclusion, Cliffy B is, and has been for a while, an idiot.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

Unless the UE4 has a magical "make development costs go down" button, this is the dumbest thing any developer could wish for. Then again, this is Epic we're talking about; instead of using lateral thinking they resort to clumsy, brute force methods because then people would realize all they make are boring, repetitive, poorly-written corridor shooters with zero depth or variety.

 

[ScruffyMcBalls]

And... how do they plan on keeping game budgets from skyrocketing out of control?

I think we should solve that problem before we tackle making games look even more graphically advanced.

And... how do they plan on keeping game budgets from skyrocketing out of control?

I think we should solve that problem before we tackle making games look even more graphically advanced.

Not having Marketing Budgets up to 5 Times that of the actual Game would probably be a start.

Both of you, thankyou for restoring my faith in humanity.
On a side note, Cliff Bleszinski still needs to go the fuck away and he is still damaging my calm.

 

[Vault101]

I seem to recall a period in the comic book world back in the early 90's where comic books started selling like hotcakes. The biggest craze back then were whomever the hottest artist was at the moment, and whatever biggest gimmick they could come up with.. IE chromium covers, multiple different covers for the same issue, etc. etc. They forgot what made comic books great... THE STORY. The comic book industry imploded, and almost went under.

There is a lesson to be learned there, that some gaming devs should really pay alot of attention to...

All flash, and no substance will not support a gaming future. Not a worthwhile one, at least.

hasnt the race for flashyer graphics ALWAYS been a big thing though? or was the term "graphics whore" only inveted this gen?

 

[Gabanuka]

Good. We need the next generation now, 6 year old tec is not viable people!

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Why do I always feel like punching a badger every time CliffyB opens his mouth?

Probably out of a desire to show him what hardcore actually looks like.