CliffyB: Microsoft Tried to "Have it Both Ways"

[Gray Firion]

So which is it Cliffy? Last week you were praising the Xbone as a godsend, and decrying Sony for not following suit. Now that M$ did a 180, you say their policies weren't the best and it's a good thing it's not forcing matters.

After the last article quoting Cliffy B., Why the hell are we still giving this dude the time of day?

Yeah, not even worth it anymore. Everytime, what a load of hot air.

 

[Overquoted]

I don't think used games are as big of a problem for the industry as they make it out to be. It's just the easiest 'problem' for them to point to. If used IP were an issue, both the movie industry and publishing industry would've sunk years ago (and admittedly, piracy is a problem, but that doesn't mean libraries have been run out of town).

The problem with failing studios isn't with used games. Just like the problem with failing car companies isn't used cars. It's about whether the product is good enough to justify the cost. You can see this in the cost of used games. Really bad games that are resold at high frequency will be cheaper than a fast food meal. Really good games that most people hold onto are nearly as expensive as brand new games.

Really good games that were put out years ago will even get brand new sales years later. I know I bought Okami HD for $20. Same thing happens for movies: a great movie from 20 years ago gets rereleased on Blu-Ray, gets brand new sales.

To be fair, we often hold onto movies and books because we return to experience the comforting familiarity of what we love. Games often rely on novel experiences to be interesting. But if that's all a game has, then it's easy to resell it. The handful of games I would never resell don't rely on the novel (think COD's nuke moment). I want to return to them over and over again for the sheer fun of the game, not because the game has pre-rendered cut-scenes or a shocking twist. I want fun, or humor, or beauty or, if nothing else, gameplay that isn't going to play out exactly the same way every time I play (again, think of COD and the linear battles of single player).

 

[blackdwarf]

or make games that nobody wants to resell. I can't understand why he hates used gaming, but at the same time, was all for the share function that would maybe allow 10 people to use one copy of a game. and if the old situation causes so many problems, why do we still have an industry? used games have been there from day one.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

Until game download speeds are fast enough to where they can beam a PS3 title straight into the console, it's still faster just to drive to the store and buy it. Infamous took me over 24 hours to download (on a fast connection). That means if I had downloaded it the day it came out, I'd be playing it a day late. I picked up Bioshock Infinite at the store the day it was released and was playing it 10 minutes later when I got home.

 

[MiskWisk]

Question: Why are we bothering with this guy? We know he is an idiot.
Can we agree to just ignore him?

 

[electric method]

Ha! Why are we listening to the guy who's claim to fame is strapping a chainsaw on a gun and creating one of the worst of the dudebro franchises in gaming? Cuz he's obviously the source for all things rational in gaming? I Think Not!

Each and every time I read something CliffyB has said/posted I think how out of touch can one person get followed by ponce. See here's the thing, Devs/pubs/MS/etc cannot have their cake and eat it too. They can't charge $60 for a game, cry foul that they didn't sell enough copies of their games when most are publically traded companies that release annual budgets/p&l statements and people see they spent 200 million to market said game. It's fairly simple for people to look into their financial health and see these companies are the authors of their own problems.

I swear it's like almost the entire gaming industry has forgotten what it means to be fiscally responsible with their companies AND how to treat their customers. FFS! One does not blame their customer(s) for bad business decisions.

 

[Vivi22]

you could make a film for a billion dollars...

you could...

but they don't.

the whole "development costs masses and masses of money" thing is rank bullshit.

when was the last time anyone pointed out the software tools that make the task easier advance at exactly the same pace as the product ? oh that's right never...

half the supposed game "devs" nowadays have never seen so much as a line of C++ because they don't have to and yet still the line is spun about how hard and costly it is to put a game together...on a prebuilt 3rd party engine most of the time...using APIs and industry standard modelling and art programs half the people on this site are probably familiar with...

load. of. fucking. crap.

according to Activision Modern Warfare 2 (for example) cost $40-$50 million to make but that was probably a lie and industry analysts put the real development costs closer to around 20. it easily brought in over 600 million...but Activision spent between 100-200 million (of the games "budget") on "marketing" ^^

its not the "dev costs" (or the profits generated at the point of sale) that are the problem.

if it were companies like CD Projekt or Runic simply wouldn't be able to "come from nowhere" and make a "AAA quality" game would they ?

no, if "dev costs" where a real problem the only people who could possibly make game would be the huge pre existing publishers which simply isn't reality...much as they might like it to be.

I think you misunderstand the issue. The problem isn't that development of AAA games has to cost a lot of money, but that many publishers choose to spend a lot of money while paying no heed to how much the game will probably actually sell.

Companies like EA are so hell bent on making games that are the new COD in terms of sales that they'll do things like make Dead Space 3 for a cost that requires it to sell 5 million copies to be profitable. A sales level that neither of the first two Dead Space games ever got close enough to so much as spit at. Same goes for the recent Tomb Raider game which needed to sell 5 million copies to be a financial success. It actually sold around 3 million and was considered a market failure because it was so expensive to develop. But it also sold a lot more copies than any Tomb Raider game ever.

The reason that companies like CD Projekt Red, or From Software with Dark Souls, can make what are essentially great AAA quality games without breaking their budget and failing to turn a profit is that they are under no illusions about how much their games are going to sell. They aren't chasing COD sales and spending like they're realistically possible. They know they won't sell that much, so they develop games more smartly and leaner on budget, and as a result, when they sell 2 million copies instead of 5 million, they're perfectly happy.

The Xbone wasn't going to do anything to address the fundamental idiocy with which most major publishers and developers manage their business. It wasn't going to stop them from chasing some pie in the sky sales number that they pulled out of their ass.

 

[Andy Shandy]

Shocker, Cliffy B wants something that is much better for business rather than the consumer. Well, you're allowed your opinion Clifford, but equally as well we're allowed to tell you to go fuck yourself for it.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

Are used games the cause of the games industry's problems? Or are they a symptom?

Perhaps the industry should take a long, hard look in the mirror.

The industry has a strange habit of blaming the consumer for it's own shortcomings.

Agreed. We are the customer. We do not serve you, nor will we be held responsible for your problems. If someone in just about every sector I can think of treated their customers like you do, you'd be out of a job by the end of the day.

 

[CriticalMiss]

I bet Cliffy B is taking it both ways from Microsoft. HIIIYOOOOO. Can I get a high five? *hand up*

 

[alj]

The problem is that microsoft went about things totally the wrong way. As usual in the console world they wont fully commit to anything. What they should have done is quite simple.

-Fully digital distribution
-Once game is downloaded you can play it offline if you need to, if you are online just check in when you launch it.
-only allow you to play the came if you are logged into the account that purchased it.
- Allow a flexible pricing model for different types of games not every game has to cost millions to make and sell for £40

This is also known as the "do what steam does method"

The problem you have is if there is no competition then the price can be as high as they can get away with, this is the problem origin has. This could be solved by developers selling keys to multiple sources as well as microsoft like greenman gaming or retail.

In fact just put steam on a console.

Oh wait they did but it was crap.

Ok put steam on a GOOD console

There done.


EDIT

On used games, they are a symptom of an industry that is just about ready to crash, stop selling games that last for 6 hours and are shit for £40, stop spending millions and millions trying to clone call of duty and expect the same return, and finally make games people want to keep, last time i looked all of the PS1 final fantasy games and resident evil games are sitting on my shelf right now and i have played through them all multiple times.

 

[PoolCleaningRobot]

Am I the only one left on the planet who likes physical media? I'm proud to look at my bookshelves full of games dating all the way back to the NES and when my friends bring their kindles over and say "look I've got like 100 books on this thing" it seems so lame.

Exactly. If consoles got rid of physical media then there would be practically no benefits over pc. I like digital media for books and movies but for games I only buy digital when it's convenient. I'd much rather have a library that can bought, sold, and traded and it means I play any game on whim because I won't have to deal with downloading like 10 gigs onto my hard drive (barring game installs). I'll be depressed if the gen after this loses physical games

 

[IronMit]

Studio's are closing because the market is competitive and they just aren't. You need to deliver quality efficiently.

In the longterm, digital drm cannot stop this. The studio's will simply have more money to play with because competition dictates that your competitor will invest more so you have to too..or you will be left behind.

In the shortrun publisher's will make ridiculous abnormal profits....which would just tempt more entrants into the market and then no more abnormal profits and they will be crying again. An industry crash is more likely in this scenario then it is now.

Obviously there are other factors to consider such as the established brands with a good foothold would have an increased steady stream of revenue but it's not concrete

 

[J Tyran]

Am I the only one left on the planet who likes physical media? I'm proud to look at my bookshelves full of games dating all the way back to the NES and when my friends bring their kindles over and say "look I've got like 100 books on this thing" it seems so lame.

If there is a neat collectors edition I'll grab it physically, but other than that no, not really. I have transitioned fully to digital media, from books to games, i even burned all my dvds to my hard drive and run it through a media player to my TV. It prolly has something to do with my dislike for clutter and my requirement for everything to be tidy and neat. That's just personal preference though.

Same for me, I can understand some people like having a collection and feel comforted by having physical media but for me I like the convenience of having almost everything digital. I do not need to carry disks around and can watch my media on any connected device in the house. With good 3G or a hot spot I can access my stuff anywhere, a £8 phone accessory allows me to display media on almost anything. If I want to watch a movie at a friends no need to take the disk, I can just use my phone as a media extender. That's great for those spontaneous "lets watch xxxx tonight" moments. I save almost 10M of shelf space with digital games, movies and music. Then there are the books as well.

I prefer to save space and reduce clutter, its more convenient to access my stuff too.

 

[PunkRex]

All other media can be purchased in digital form yet (as far as I know) owning physical copies is still the most popular option. Alot of people (myself included) like holding what they buy, I know some might find this out dated but its how its always been, I don't think people are ever going to embrace digital on the scale these guys want. I know there are exceptions, downloadable music for one (although there's another reason for that being so popular) and Steam is alright.

 

[Smeatza]

I bet Cliffy B is taking it both ways from Microsoft. HIIIYOOOOO. Can I get a high five? *hand up*

*high fives*
Very nicely done.

OT: Mr. Bleszinski. I would rather see the death of Triple A games than I would the death of game ownership.
What is it about AAA that is so special I should want to sacrifice my consumer rights? What AAA game is that good?
Gears of War? Fuck off.