CliffyB: Microsoft Tried to "Have it Both Ways"

[blackdwarf]

or make games that nobody wants to resell. I can't understand why he hates used gaming, but at the same time, was all for the share function that would maybe allow 10 people to use one copy of a game. and if the old situation causes so many problems, why do we still have an industry? used games have been there from day one.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

Until game download speeds are fast enough to where they can beam a PS3 title straight into the console, it's still faster just to drive to the store and buy it. Infamous took me over 24 hours to download (on a fast connection). That means if I had downloaded it the day it came out, I'd be playing it a day late. I picked up Bioshock Infinite at the store the day it was released and was playing it 10 minutes later when I got home.

 

[MiskWisk]

Question: Why are we bothering with this guy? We know he is an idiot.
Can we agree to just ignore him?

 

[electric method]

Ha! Why are we listening to the guy who's claim to fame is strapping a chainsaw on a gun and creating one of the worst of the dudebro franchises in gaming? Cuz he's obviously the source for all things rational in gaming? I Think Not!

Each and every time I read something CliffyB has said/posted I think how out of touch can one person get followed by ponce. See here's the thing, Devs/pubs/MS/etc cannot have their cake and eat it too. They can't charge $60 for a game, cry foul that they didn't sell enough copies of their games when most are publically traded companies that release annual budgets/p&l statements and people see they spent 200 million to market said game. It's fairly simple for people to look into their financial health and see these companies are the authors of their own problems.

I swear it's like almost the entire gaming industry has forgotten what it means to be fiscally responsible with their companies AND how to treat their customers. FFS! One does not blame their customer(s) for bad business decisions.

 

[Vivi22]

you could make a film for a billion dollars...

you could...

but they don't.

the whole "development costs masses and masses of money" thing is rank bullshit.

when was the last time anyone pointed out the software tools that make the task easier advance at exactly the same pace as the product ? oh that's right never...

half the supposed game "devs" nowadays have never seen so much as a line of C++ because they don't have to and yet still the line is spun about how hard and costly it is to put a game together...on a prebuilt 3rd party engine most of the time...using APIs and industry standard modelling and art programs half the people on this site are probably familiar with...

load. of. fucking. crap.

according to Activision Modern Warfare 2 (for example) cost $40-$50 million to make but that was probably a lie and industry analysts put the real development costs closer to around 20. it easily brought in over 600 million...but Activision spent between 100-200 million (of the games "budget") on "marketing" ^^

its not the "dev costs" (or the profits generated at the point of sale) that are the problem.

if it were companies like CD Projekt or Runic simply wouldn't be able to "come from nowhere" and make a "AAA quality" game would they ?

no, if "dev costs" where a real problem the only people who could possibly make game would be the huge pre existing publishers which simply isn't reality...much as they might like it to be.

I think you misunderstand the issue. The problem isn't that development of AAA games has to cost a lot of money, but that many publishers choose to spend a lot of money while paying no heed to how much the game will probably actually sell.

Companies like EA are so hell bent on making games that are the new COD in terms of sales that they'll do things like make Dead Space 3 for a cost that requires it to sell 5 million copies to be profitable. A sales level that neither of the first two Dead Space games ever got close enough to so much as spit at. Same goes for the recent Tomb Raider game which needed to sell 5 million copies to be a financial success. It actually sold around 3 million and was considered a market failure because it was so expensive to develop. But it also sold a lot more copies than any Tomb Raider game ever.

The reason that companies like CD Projekt Red, or From Software with Dark Souls, can make what are essentially great AAA quality games without breaking their budget and failing to turn a profit is that they are under no illusions about how much their games are going to sell. They aren't chasing COD sales and spending like they're realistically possible. They know they won't sell that much, so they develop games more smartly and leaner on budget, and as a result, when they sell 2 million copies instead of 5 million, they're perfectly happy.

The Xbone wasn't going to do anything to address the fundamental idiocy with which most major publishers and developers manage their business. It wasn't going to stop them from chasing some pie in the sky sales number that they pulled out of their ass.

 

[Andy Shandy]

Shocker, Cliffy B wants something that is much better for business rather than the consumer. Well, you're allowed your opinion Clifford, but equally as well we're allowed to tell you to go fuck yourself for it.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

Are used games the cause of the games industry's problems? Or are they a symptom?

Perhaps the industry should take a long, hard look in the mirror.

The industry has a strange habit of blaming the consumer for it's own shortcomings.

Agreed. We are the customer. We do not serve you, nor will we be held responsible for your problems. If someone in just about every sector I can think of treated their customers like you do, you'd be out of a job by the end of the day.

 

[CriticalMiss]

I bet Cliffy B is taking it both ways from Microsoft. HIIIYOOOOO. Can I get a high five? *hand up*

 

[alj]

The problem is that microsoft went about things totally the wrong way. As usual in the console world they wont fully commit to anything. What they should have done is quite simple.

-Fully digital distribution
-Once game is downloaded you can play it offline if you need to, if you are online just check in when you launch it.
-only allow you to play the came if you are logged into the account that purchased it.
- Allow a flexible pricing model for different types of games not every game has to cost millions to make and sell for £40

This is also known as the "do what steam does method"

The problem you have is if there is no competition then the price can be as high as they can get away with, this is the problem origin has. This could be solved by developers selling keys to multiple sources as well as microsoft like greenman gaming or retail.

In fact just put steam on a console.

Oh wait they did but it was crap.

Ok put steam on a GOOD console

There done.


EDIT

On used games, they are a symptom of an industry that is just about ready to crash, stop selling games that last for 6 hours and are shit for £40, stop spending millions and millions trying to clone call of duty and expect the same return, and finally make games people want to keep, last time i looked all of the PS1 final fantasy games and resident evil games are sitting on my shelf right now and i have played through them all multiple times.

 

[PoolCleaningRobot]

Am I the only one left on the planet who likes physical media? I'm proud to look at my bookshelves full of games dating all the way back to the NES and when my friends bring their kindles over and say "look I've got like 100 books on this thing" it seems so lame.

Exactly. If consoles got rid of physical media then there would be practically no benefits over pc. I like digital media for books and movies but for games I only buy digital when it's convenient. I'd much rather have a library that can bought, sold, and traded and it means I play any game on whim because I won't have to deal with downloading like 10 gigs onto my hard drive (barring game installs). I'll be depressed if the gen after this loses physical games

 

[IronMit]

Studio's are closing because the market is competitive and they just aren't. You need to deliver quality efficiently.

In the longterm, digital drm cannot stop this. The studio's will simply have more money to play with because competition dictates that your competitor will invest more so you have to too..or you will be left behind.

In the shortrun publisher's will make ridiculous abnormal profits....which would just tempt more entrants into the market and then no more abnormal profits and they will be crying again. An industry crash is more likely in this scenario then it is now.

Obviously there are other factors to consider such as the established brands with a good foothold would have an increased steady stream of revenue but it's not concrete

 

[J Tyran]

Am I the only one left on the planet who likes physical media? I'm proud to look at my bookshelves full of games dating all the way back to the NES and when my friends bring their kindles over and say "look I've got like 100 books on this thing" it seems so lame.

If there is a neat collectors edition I'll grab it physically, but other than that no, not really. I have transitioned fully to digital media, from books to games, i even burned all my dvds to my hard drive and run it through a media player to my TV. It prolly has something to do with my dislike for clutter and my requirement for everything to be tidy and neat. That's just personal preference though.

Same for me, I can understand some people like having a collection and feel comforted by having physical media but for me I like the convenience of having almost everything digital. I do not need to carry disks around and can watch my media on any connected device in the house. With good 3G or a hot spot I can access my stuff anywhere, a £8 phone accessory allows me to display media on almost anything. If I want to watch a movie at a friends no need to take the disk, I can just use my phone as a media extender. That's great for those spontaneous "lets watch xxxx tonight" moments. I save almost 10M of shelf space with digital games, movies and music. Then there are the books as well.

I prefer to save space and reduce clutter, its more convenient to access my stuff too.

 

[PunkRex]

All other media can be purchased in digital form yet (as far as I know) owning physical copies is still the most popular option. Alot of people (myself included) like holding what they buy, I know some might find this out dated but its how its always been, I don't think people are ever going to embrace digital on the scale these guys want. I know there are exceptions, downloadable music for one (although there's another reason for that being so popular) and Steam is alright.

 

[Smeatza]

I bet Cliffy B is taking it both ways from Microsoft. HIIIYOOOOO. Can I get a high five? *hand up*

*high fives*
Very nicely done.

OT: Mr. Bleszinski. I would rather see the death of Triple A games than I would the death of game ownership.
What is it about AAA that is so special I should want to sacrifice my consumer rights? What AAA game is that good?
Gears of War? Fuck off.

 

[RicoADF]

That guy is a prick. No getting rid of used games will not solve the issue, if their so stupid that their not able to budget accordingly then that won't fix the issue. All it will do at best is put dumb companies on life support while they screw their consumers for more money. If AAA companies like EA need to go out of business for the industry to grow then so be it. It's normal for companies to rise and fall, others will take their place. We have an amazing indie industry ready to grow with smarter ideas into the next Rockstar etc. This is just greedy corporations trying to keep control and people like 'cliffyB' support them because it help THEM and/or their too dumb to see the issue. No other industry on earth treats the consumer like the gaming industry, no other industry treats their consumer like criminals, while stealing from them all the time, and no other industry has removed the right of resale of the product or licence. And no games are not special they don't have magic rights just because they have a licence, movies and music also give you licence to watch/listen to them when you buy their disc, and yet everyone agrees you have the right to give away the copy of Avatar you no longer watch.

 

[UberNoodle]

Cliff, when you were actually making games, we semi-cared about your existence. Nobody could make cookie cutter shooting games about gruff and burly (yet soft hearted) men, like you could, at least not with as much projection, I mean, machismo. But you see, anybody could have made those games. Your presence was as disposable as the characters in the game. So, now that you're on early retirement, you've made this 'Fox Contributer' style transition to gaming industry pundit, and we don't actually want you. Go remake your space rabbit game, or make a 'spiritual successor' to Gear of War, like Gizmos of Gore or how about, Tools of Conflict.

 

[UberNoodle]

Digital games may be cheaper? I call bullshit. There's no precedent.

Just look at Ubisoft's UPlay, EA's Origin, and MS's XBL. New releases on those platforms are the same price as physical media and most older games (the ones no longer available on physical media) are still their full release-day price.

Apparently Wii U game downloads from 3rd parties have reduced in price over time. Is that true?

 

[mechalynx]

WOW, just WOW! Lemme break this down for you, Cliffy. It is up to the game industry to cater to the market, not the other way around. If the market (read gamers) considers the terms of sale unappealing, they will turn the seller down. That is the reality. You are in the business of "want", not "need". I may want your game, but you're the one who needs me to buy it. And at the end of the day there are only so many hoops people are willing to jump through for a few hours of escapism.

 

[Mr. Q]

At times like these, I wish someone would make a YouTube clip of Alan Rickman from Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves of him saying "SHUT UP, YOU TWIT!" It would be so perfect anytime CliffyB opened his mouth and proved to the world once more what a colossal twat he is. -_-

 

[Gorrath]

Hey Cliffy, we've got a chicken and egg problem here. If they want us to embrace digital, they have to give us an incentive first. You alluded to that in your statement and it is correct. The best incentive is a cost reduction for digital purchases. If the on-disc game is 60 and the digital version is 40, we'll eat that 40 dollar version up.

The other thing you can do is stop expecting to sell umteebazillion copies of JustlikeCoDbutnot 4. Instead, you can produce quality games with lower budgets that aren't attempting to 'broaden the audience'. They do this with movies too, by down playing elements and watering things down to get a PG13 rating. They reason this works for films is that people can't trade their watered down screening of notagoodhorrorflick 5. They CAN trade in their eight hour, bland-as-hell, tacked on multiplayer JustlikeCoDbutnot 4.

If you want to hurt used game sales, make games we'd actually like to play more than once!