CNN Insider admits hyping death toll of Covid to drive ratings.

Agema

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As every politician is. This is why I hate politics in general, they all suck, they all are full of shit, and now they have the unpleasant reality of living in a world where cameras and the internet are everywhere so we see it clearly.
No, politicians vary, like everyone else. They obviously have tendency to sugar-coat their own position and overcriticise the opposition, but it is simply wrong to imagine that the average politician is as epistemologically challenged as Donald Trump.

Like when AoC went online to tell her story of the riot attacks only for people to call her on her bullshit as she wasn't even in the same building as the rioters. Or the time she pretended to bash Trump about the kids in cages, posting a video of her crying against one of the "cages", only for people to reveal she was in a vacant parking lot in a different state.
You realise both those stories are made up, right?

And look I think Trump would have been great if he kept his stupid fucking mouth shut and stayed off Twitter. But big ego's gotta ego and whatever. Trump could have kept his head down and said fuck the press, while he just did his damn job and it would have been all gravy. But because he is a big orange jackass, he kept digging that hole over and over again.
He kept digging that hole because he's incompetent.
 

tstorm823

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You realise both those stories are made up, right?
Made up is a bit far. They're exaggerations of exaggerations. AOC routinely does the most literal political theater on the internet, and then her critics blow her nonsense even more out of proportion. Should she be mocked for doing a photo-shoot looking sad at a fence outside a detention center? Yes, yes she should. That is dumb. Are her live streams comically stupid? Yes, yes they are. Are those stories precisely accurate? No. Are they made up? No, they definitely derive from the antics of someone behaving as an instagram influencer /US Representative.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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Made up is a bit far. They're exaggerations of exaggerations.
So made up, then.

AOC routinely does the most literal political theater on the internet, and then her critics blow her nonsense even more out of proportion. Should she be mocked for doing a photo-shoot looking sad at a fence outside a detention center? Yes, yes she should. That is dumb. Are her live streams comically stupid? Yes, yes they are. Are those stories precisely accurate? No. Are they made up? No, they definitely derive from the antics of someone behaving as an instagram influencer /US Representative.
They're comical antics to dinosaurs disconnected from modern youth (which with the rate of social change due to the internet is a large percentage of over 40s - and thus most Republicans). Take a look at Instagram, the success of influencers, the ubiquity of smartphone recordings, and all the yoof getting their information from Reddit and YouTube. She's a politician who knows her key audience are young adults and how to reach them. She's vastly more savvy than the majority of her peers, who are pretty much still in a mode of going out on the streets shaking hands and kissing babies like its still 1960. Critising AOC for being wildly successful at connecting with her core demographic is a bit like being a grumpy old guy saying the youth of today don't know they're born and refusing to buy a smartphone because it's too damn complicated to work out how to make a call on one.

As for political theatre, it's just loltastically illogical. Sure, many of the more cynical amongst us roll our eyes whenever a president / minister pompously struts on an aircraft carrier looking tough, wanders around a disaster zone looking sombre, or visits a hospital and chats to the plebs in a concerned manner as if they hadn't just put forward a bill to reduce the healthcare budget. But the reason they do it is because not everyone's a cynic and overall it works: image matters. What this complaint therefore boils down to is "I don't like AOC".
 
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tstorm823

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They're comical antics to dinosaurs disconnected from modern youth (which with the rate of social change due to the internet is a large percentage of over 40s - and thus most Republicans). Take a look at Instagram, the success of influencers, the ubiquity of smartphone recordings, and all the yoof getting their information from Reddit and YouTube. She's a politician who knows her key audience are young adults and how to reach them. She's vastly more savvy than the majority of her peers, who are pretty much still in a mode of going out on the streets shaking hands and kissing babies like its still 1960. Critising AOC for being wildly successful at connecting with her core demographic is a bit like being a grumpy old guy saying the youth of today don't know they're born and refusing to buy a smartphone because it's too damn complicated to work out how to make a call on one.

As for political theatre, it's just loltastically illogical. Sure, many of the more cynical amongst us roll our eyes whenever a president / minister pompously struts on an aircraft carrier looking tough, wanders around a disaster zone looking sombre, or visits a hospital and chats to the plebs in a concerned manner as if they hadn't just put forward a bill to reduce the healthcare budget. But the reason they do it is because not everyone's a cynic and overall it works: image matters. What this complaint therefore boils down to is "I don't like AOC".
I don't not like AOC. I have reasonable hopes for what she might become given time to actually have her own opinions publicly. The problem with "influencers" is that they aren't actually influencers, they're people following the popular trends to get attention for themselves, they are the most influenced people on the planet. Cortez doesn't really have influence in her "core demographic" as you put it, quite the opposite, she's popular largely for repeating the internet's favorite talking points, and would likely be dropped like a rock if she deviated too far from those anytime soon. It's not any particular coincidence that AOC once publicly suggested she was excited to work with Ted Cruz on a bill where they had genuine agreement about the policy, and now she's made a hobby of angrily responding to his tweets to make reddit headlines. The first strategy got poor reviews from the population that supports her, and she cannot deviate from their opinions. And to be completely fair, all of that would be perfectly reasonable if her congressional district was reddit.

AOC seems intelligent, rhetorically talented, and more concerned with issues than partisanship, and for that I hope she gains enough personal influence to take some stances that aren't all such blatant internet pandering. At the moment though, she seems to be digging deeper into that.
 

Agema

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I don't not like AOC. I have reasonable hopes for what she might become given time to actually have her own opinions publicly. The problem with "influencers" is that they aren't actually influencers, they're people following the popular trends to get attention for themselves, they are the most influenced people on the planet. Cortez doesn't really have influence in her "core demographic" as you put it, quite the opposite, she's popular largely for repeating the internet's favorite talking points, and would likely be dropped like a rock if she deviated too far from those anytime soon. It's not any particular coincidence that AOC once publicly suggested she was excited to work with Ted Cruz on a bill where they had genuine agreement about the policy, and now she's made a hobby of angrily responding to his tweets to make reddit headlines. The first strategy got poor reviews from the population that supports her, and she cannot deviate from their opinions. And to be completely fair, all of that would be perfectly reasonable if her congressional district was reddit.
Well, here's the thing. If politicians don't pay attention to what their constituency wants, they tend to put themselves at risk of removal. One might note the vigorous attempts to remove Liz Cheney for having the temerity to challenge Donald Trump, for instance. In fact, most of Trump's strongest Republican critics throughout his presidency were those resigning, dying, or otherwise lucky enough to be safe, because nearly all the other chickenshits who secretly resented him wouldn't dare risk the consequences of overt opposition.

There is thus a balance that all politicians must tread of using their wisdom and beliefs judiciously to overrule their voters for the general good, but also knowing there are points where they must make concessions to those voters. I see no particular reason to believe AOC is unusually slavish to her electorate.
 

tstorm823

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I see no particular reason to believe AOC is unusually slavish to her electorate.
Then isn't it, from your perspective, just a question of whether the average politician is deserving of criticism for the pandering they do?
 

Silvanus

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I don't not like AOC. I have reasonable hopes for what she might become given time to actually have her own opinions publicly. The problem with "influencers" is that they aren't actually influencers, they're people following the popular trends to get attention for themselves, they are the most influenced people on the planet. Cortez doesn't really have influence in her "core demographic" as you put it, quite the opposite, she's popular largely for repeating the internet's favorite talking points, and would likely be dropped like a rock if she deviated too far from those anytime soon. It's not any particular coincidence that AOC once publicly suggested she was excited to work with Ted Cruz on a bill where they had genuine agreement about the policy, and now she's made a hobby of angrily responding to his tweets to make reddit headlines. The first strategy got poor reviews from the population that supports her, and she cannot deviate from their opinions. And to be completely fair, all of that would be perfectly reasonable if her congressional district was reddit.
Why do you think she doesn't agree with the things she's saying?
 

tstorm823

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Why do you think she doesn't agree with the things she's saying?
a) I gave a specific example.
b) Nobody really does.

Edit: to close the obvious door I stupidly left open, not "nobody believes what they say", rather "nobody believes every single popular opinion on reddit".
 

Silvanus

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a) I gave a specific example.
What, that she was mean to Ted Cruz once?

b) Nobody really does.

Edit: to close the obvious door I stupidly left open, not "nobody believes what they say", rather "nobody believes every single popular opinion on reddit".
OK, but AOC doesn't express support for "every single popular opinion". Her platform is just a broadly popular quasi social-democratic one.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Oh yeah, they're doing fucking great
Probably because they know well enough to fucking wear a mask when people are sick and not trawl the bars just because they're fucking bored.

Are you seriously using *migrant farmers in California* and other essential workers, me fucking included, as an excuse for why people should just be allowed to hang out in bars on "personal responsibility" grounds? In the land of "I'm going to lie about fictional lung conditions to avoid wearing a mask indoors for a few minutes because the wuhan flu is fake"?

Fucking delusional.
Japan has 83 deaths per million from covid, the US has 1,755 per million (21 times the difference btw). Also, if you apply Japan's deaths per million to the US population that's 27,000 deaths and an average amount of deaths by the flu in a given year. In Japan, the government literally can't shutdown business so bars were open there the entire time. Schools were also open nearly the entire time. People were masking well enough in the US, especially in the blue states (that didn't do any better than red states really) that made masking next to godliness. Tons of other countries masked too. There's something else that's going on in Japan that nobody cared to study.

My points always get so misconstrued. My point is most people don't have the luxury of not working. Whether you're supporting a worker at a grocery store by going there and buying things or going to a bar and buying things, what's the difference between supporting either workers? Again, YOU JUST CAN'T HAVE PEOPLE STAY HOME FOR A YEAR+, they have to work. No country in the world was able to do that because that's impossible even if you are only keeping the essential workforce working, you can't pay probably over half the population to stay home for a year. The other option, like I said, was to pull a China and do actual real lockdowns so the virus wouldn't be slowly moving through the essential workforce just waiting for the country to open back up again (because it can't stay closed). Or you figure out what happened in Japan. The social democratic countries in Europe that have more public welfare programs didn't do too much better than the US because they didn't do Australia or China and couldn't figure out Japan just like us and the rest of the world. Please feel free to find some 4th option that no one else in the world knows about that anyone could've done.
 
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Seanchaidh

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AOC seems intelligent, rhetorically talented, and more concerned with issues than partisanship, and for that I hope she gains enough personal influence to take some stances that aren't all such blatant internet pandering.
She is regularly skewered on the internet by her base for her stances on Israel, Venezuela, Biden "exceeding expectations", how much she should have asked in return for voting for Nancy Pelosi for Speaker of the House, and probably some other things that aren't coming to mind at the moment.
 

Schadrach

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No rule prohibits him to release tax returns under audit. Also, why is the audit taking so long?
No rule required him to release tax returns either - it's another of those things that's a norm (and not a terribly old one either - it was started by Nixon in reaction to a scandal) rather than a rule.

As for why the audit is taking so long, it likely has a lot to do with people like Trump having extraordinarily complex finances, often intentionally obtuse ones as well (easier to hide money or put it in non-taxable places that way). Detangling it can take a while.
 

tstorm823

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She is regularly skewered on the internet by her base for her stances on Israel, Venezuela, Biden "exceeding expectations", how much she should have asked in return for voting for Nancy Pelosi for Speaker of the House, and probably some other things that aren't coming to mind at the moment.
a) You're not her base. Her base thinks you're a "tankie."
b) Reddit, twitter, and instagram are not like here. If you do not dig into the fringe and see only the popular content on those sites, you will get 99% "Biden is great, Biden is great, Biden is great". "Biden is exceeding expectations for progressives" is not an unpopular opinion. You may think it's dumb, I may think it's dumb, but that doesn't mean it's not the front page of reddit every freaking day.
c) It's honestly a pretty good illustration of your atypical worldview that you think she said anything controversial about Venezuela.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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Then isn't it, from your perspective, just a question of whether the average politician is deserving of criticism for the pandering they do?
The ultimate job of a politician (in my view) is to govern well: which I would define as getting the most benefit to the most people. How they do that it is not something that necessarily has strict "rules".

I remember an ex-flatmate of mine met George Bush (Snr.): he asked whether Bush had ever changed his position for politics. Bush told him that he was against the death penalty, but Reagan told him he'd have to publically support it to become Reagan's VP. So he changed his stance. Was this right or wrong for him to do? Honestly, I don't think that's an easy question to answer. To do good with power, one must hold power: and to hold power in politics requires compromise. That's even true of dictators, because dictators too can be dragged down.

It is bad to pander to electorate to the detriment of the people. However if that detriment is a "expense" that can afford a greater advantage, it may be reasonable. Much of politics is compromise and making deals: pay a cost here, get a benefit there. And much of this is extraordinarily hard to assess - potentially it is only many years later the reality of success or failure becomes clear. My feeling is that many politicians pander to the people with the primary intent of holding power for personal gain, or that they squander their popularity for little or no accomplishment. I do not think the former is true of AOC, and I do not think she has ever had enough power to criticise her for failing to deliver.

I also draw a distinction between what I like, and what is effective: such as photo ops, which I usually find rather contemptible, but appreciate millions do find important, inspiring, etc. So I see no reason to criticise politicians for it, even if I personally have no time for it.
 
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Seanchaidh

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For whatever reason, we don't hear from the Bari Weiss's of the world and most other free speech warriors about things like the above.

The ultimate job of a politician (in my view) is to govern well: which I would define as getting the most benefit to the most people. How they do that it is not something that necessarily has strict "rules".

I remember an ex-flatmate of mine met George Bush (Snr.): he asked whether Bush had ever changed his position for politics. Bush told him that he was against the death penalty, but Reagan told him he'd have to publically support it to become Reagan's VP. So he changed his stance. Was this right or wrong for him to do? Honestly, I don't think that's an easy question to answer. To do good with power, one must hold power: and to hold power in politics requires compromise. That's even true of dictators, because dictators too can be dragged down.
On the other hand, it was Bush I, so he wasn't doing good either way.