Competitive Players Alone Cannot Sustain Smash Bros., Says Sakurai

[Kittyhawk]

I hear what he's saying, but perhaps Nintendo should have just done a hardcore competitive mode and a casual fighter mode, so both bases were covered. Smash never really was a proper fighting game, mind. In the right hands like Capcom, Arc Systems or Namco, it could be much better, IMO.

 

[OldNewNewOld]

I feel like some people might be missing the bigger point that isn't being directly made. Sure, yes, Sakurai could easily just do Melee again or a game that feels like Melee again and please the fanbase. But, as a creator, how do you think it feels to constantly be requested to do the same game (or song, or story, or joke) over and over again that everyone holds up as the best one, but you're constantly trying to improve upon yourself and introduce new material? Yes, some of it isn't as good as your previous work (like tripping) but there's more variety being offered and some cool ideas being explored. I sympathize with Sakurai because I feel this is how his life is and I can fully understand why he's said he won't be back for the next Smash. He's tired of people shitting on his new ideas (to a degree, not completely) and not accepting his newer ideas he wants to push forward.

(again, this is in reference to competitive gamers, not so much critics or people like myself).

People aren't really asking him to redo Melee again. They are asking for a new Smash that is as good as Melee or better. It should have at least the same depths plus more. What we got from the 2 games after Melee was less. In fact, that should actually make it even worse fro him as a creator because with Brawl and U he didn't deliver anything different. He just made less. The "casual" gameplay of Brawl and U are just as good as Melee. Hell, it's actually worse in Brawl because of the tripping. Even all my casual friends complain about it because losing to pure randomness isn't funny. There is a huge difference between tripping and a hammer spawning next to the enemy. At least you have a chance of countering the second one or run away.

In short people ask for him to build on Melee.
What he does is he takes Melee, removes elements, adds some minimal stuff (Except the roaster. I like it in both games and some of the unusual addition are freaking awesome once you try them. I can't stop playing Duck Hunt Duo.).
As an creator, he did less new stuff than what people asked him to do.

The "competitive", "hardcore" Super Smash Bros. base...?

At the risk of alienating those people, I kind of think the first and second halves of that sentence should be an oxymoron. There's no lack of fighting games that can be analyzed to death with regard to things like the number of frames of unblockability and aerial/juggling versus distance/missile capabilities. Having one game that's steered more towards pick-up-and-play accessibility than savant-like specialist dominance is no bad thing.

I didn't really see anyone complain that Melee wasn't accessible. In fact, most competitive Smash player nowadays were casuals who picked up Melee. The game, as any other Smash game was extremely accessible for casuals. Simple controls, simple visuals, easy learning curve, "casual friendly" setting. Yet it offered enough depth for people to study the game and get good to the point of leaving people speechless when you see what can be done.
While I generally dislike Extra Credits because recently they are more often wrong than right, they did have a nice point about depth and I believe Smash is one of the best examples of it. The game isn't complex, it's easy to pick up and play casually, yet offers enough depth for the hardcore competitive player to master it.
The two user bases never affected each other except if maybe few situation where one friend plays it casually, but the rest competitively making it impossible for him to play with them. But even then the game offers a way to balance it out with randomness, items, stages and handicap.

 

[Akisa]

Competitive communities in general can't sustain a game on their own. In fact, were one to cater solely to the "competitive" scene, a game's audience would eventually just implode.

Or explode... (Cough dota cough)

 

[Nazulu]

I feel like some people might be missing the bigger point that isn't being directly made. Sure, yes, Sakurai could easily just do Melee again or a game that feels like Melee again and please the fanbase. But, as a creator, how do you think it feels to constantly be requested to do the same game (or song, or story, or joke) over and over again that everyone holds up as the best one, but you're constantly trying to improve upon yourself and introduce new material? Yes, some of it isn't as good as your previous work (like tripping) but there's more variety being offered and some cool ideas being explored. I sympathize with Sakurai because I feel this is how his life is and I can fully understand why he's said he won't be back for the next Smash. He's tired of people shitting on his new ideas (to a degree, not completely) and not accepting his newer ideas he wants to push forward.

(again, this is in reference to competitive gamers, not so much critics or people like myself).

I feel like you've missed the point. People keep mentioning Melee because it's believed to be the best one, and in the hopes of mentioning it, we'd like to see it improved from there. Instead he keeps trying to re-invent the wheel and the latest additions seem like a step back instead.

You're right about the variety, but with a franchise that only gets a new sequel with each new console, we'd like that special itch to be scratched one day. Melee is literally the only game of it's type (being specific with the movement and certain other bits and pieces) so it's kinda lonely.

Good. Those neckbeards should realize this is a party game, not a life or death button masher like they make all the other fighters out there.

You don't make any sense at all. The games are meant to have variety, to suit everyone, that's the magic of it. Hell, in Smash U they've added a new option to make all the stages like Final Destination. I wouldn't say they're completely against the competitive scene.

 

[ShakerSilver]

Good. Those neckbeards should realize this is a party game, not a life or death button masher like they make all the other fighters out there.

God forbid people enjoy a game in a way you don't. It's not like Smash has a variety of modes to suit nearly all types of players and their needs.

 

[Trippy Turtle]

He is right, but he shouldn't sacrifice the fun of the competitive players for the casual ones.
you can add things to make casuals enjoy it more, as long as it doesn't impact on the competitive players. Look what happened to Halo 4. It only appealed to casuals because they tried to make it accessible and now its basically a dead game.

 

[FalloutJack]

Really now. You say that after HOW MANY sequels? I call bullshit.

 

[RaikuFA]

Good. Those neckbeards should realize this is a party game, not a life or death button masher like they make all the other fighters out there.

God forbid people enjoy a game in a way you don't. It's not like Smash has a variety of modes to suit nearly all types of players and their needs.

It works both ways. The people that treat Smash like it's life or death act like casual players like me shouldn't even play the game. And then theres the fans of other fighters thats another type that's even worse.

 

[ShakerSilver]

It works both ways. The people that treat Smash like it's life or death act like casual players like me shouldn't even play the game. And then theres the fans of other fighters thats another type that's even worse.

If you're saying all top pros hate casual play, that's provably false. Even the most serious Melee pros like to play a few rounds of Pokeball only matches on Poke Floats when not competing. Being dedicated to competitive Smash doesn't make you despise casual play. Although there's always going to be people in a fanbase spoiling others fun, both people trying to enforce competitive rules and those shunning all competitiveness for the sake of their own enjoyment. Despite your hatred for that type of fan, your own attitude towards how others enjoy Smash echoes them as well.

 

[RaikuFA]

It works both ways. The people that treat Smash like it's life or death act like casual players like me shouldn't even play the game. And then theres the fans of other fighters thats another type that's even worse.

If you're saying all top pros hate casual play, that's provably false. Even the most serious Melee pros like to play a few rounds of Pokeball only matches on Poke Floats when not competing. Being dedicated to competitive Smash doesn't make you despise casual play. Although there's always going to be people in a fanbase spoiling others fun, both people trying to enforce competitive rules and those shunning all competitiveness for the sake of their own enjoyment. Despite your hatred for that type of fan, your own attitude towards how others enjoy Smash echoes them as well.

Thats not the attitude I'm usually given. The comic store I go to for packs usually holds smash tourneys with some of the players getting very defensive when you're not known to the scene and want to try it out. Yeah the judges let newcomers play but they're still looked down upon.

 

[FriedRicer]

It baffles me that people still see the presence of advance techniques as a compulsion to use them. If you never cared to wave-dash with your friends - fine. I don't see why my group had to suffer. It feels like a parity issue , where casuals have to have their play-styles validated by removing all extra styles of play.Think about it - does a casual player notice the absence the SHFFL?The DACUS? Will they go to a tourney ? I played the new smash and while it is an improvement, the lack of freedom makes me weep inside at all the wasted potential.No L-cancel - the game decides where & when my move should end. Hit-stun? Pfft. Auto ledge grab still in are you serious? What if I wanted to up-B early on purpose to get a hit?Nope. the move is canceled and Marth grabs the edge....I said his name.I promised I would'nt.Oh, Marth-e-kins... - I need to be alone now.

TLDR : I love Sakurai , but he removed features to cater to a group that are mostly ignorant to the impact of said features on the meta-game longevity. This was not a case of less is more but less is less.

 

[gonenow]

Good. Those neckbeards should realize this is a party game, not a life or death button masher like they make all the other fighters out there.

You don't make any sense at all. The games are meant to have variety, to suit everyone, that's the magic of it. Hell, in Smash U they've added a new option to make all the stages like Final Destination. I wouldn't say they're completely against the competitive scene.

It does however show they are very ignorant of the scene as final destination is normally a counter pick map which has created a rift between tournaments which actually run real maps and the online FD players. It also doesn't help that most of the 3ds maps are pretty terrible with only around 3-4 maps being viable (Not that big of an issue since most people will use the Wii U version for competitions but it sucks for those wanting to play on 3DS). Plus on top of that the omega mode has imbalances of its own with not every final destination being made equal with there being around 5 different types of final destination IIRC which give certain fights advantages on certain types of final destination.

 

[Scow2]

It baffles me that people still see the presence of advance techniques as a compulsion to use them. If you never cared to wave-dash with your friends - fine. I don't see why my group had to suffer. It feels like a parity issue , where casuals have to have their play-styles validated by removing all extra styles of play.Think about it - does a casual player notice the absence the SHFFL?The DACUS? Will they go to a tourney ? I played the new smash and while it is an improvement, the lack of freedom makes me weep inside at all the wasted potential.No L-cancel - the game decides where & when my move should end. Hit-stun? Pfft. Auto ledge grab still in are you serious? What if I wanted to up-B early on purpose to get a hit?Nope. the move is canceled and Marth grabs the edge....I said his name.I promised I would'nt.Oh, Marth-e-kins... - I need to be alone now.

TLDR : I love Sakurai , but he removed features to cater to a group that are mostly ignorant to the impact of said features on the meta-game longevity. This was not a case of less is more but less is less.

No L-cancel? Better learn how to actually use your moves to not get caught with your pants down.

As long as there isn't anything like Brawl's 'tripping' - better learn the new ruleset and adapt.

 

[FredTheUndead]

Look just drop all other fighting games and buy Jojo's Bizarre Adventure All Star Battle so we can get the next game in English too.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

If the competitive playerbase can't sustain games, how are Starcraft and Street Fighter still going for something like 2+ decades?

 

[Nazulu]

Good. Those neckbeards should realize this is a party game, not a life or death button masher like they make all the other fighters out there.

You don't make any sense at all. The games are meant to have variety, to suit everyone, that's the magic of it. Hell, in Smash U they've added a new option to make all the stages like Final Destination. I wouldn't say they're completely against the competitive scene.

It does however show they are very ignorant of the scene as final destination is normally a counter pick map which has created a rift between tournaments which actually run real maps and the online FD players. It also doesn't help that most of the 3ds maps are pretty terrible with only around 3-4 maps being viable (Not that big of an issue since most people will use the Wii U version for competitions but it sucks for those wanting to play on 3DS). Plus on top of that the omega mode has imbalances of its own with not every final destination being made equal with there being around 5 different types of final destination IIRC which give certain fights advantages on certain types of final destination.

We already know they're ignorant from how they've changed the characters around and nerfed them. Also, this comment Sakurai made now and the ones before never filled me with hope for a good competitive scene.

All I'm saying is with these new options they certainly haven't decided to just cut out the idea of competitiveness. They did that more with the random tripping in Brawl.

 

[jayzz911]

If the competitive playerbase can't sustain games, how are Starcraft and Street Fighter still going for something like 2+ decades?

Because games that have a known competitive legacy and are built around the group are obviously going to have more of those people. The reason I would never want this to be a smash staple is simple. I can't bust out street fighter at a party and expect everyone to have a good time. We have plenty of competitive fighting games, how about we leave the casual party one to the casual party crowd. (this is coming from someone who enjoys playing street fighter a great deal btw)

 

[Nazulu]

If the competitive playerbase can't sustain games, how are Starcraft and Street Fighter still going for something like 2+ decades?

Because games that have a known competitive legacy and are built around the group are obviously going to have more of those people. The reason I would never want this to be a smash staple is simple. I can't bust out street fighter at a party and expect everyone to have a good time. We have plenty of competitive fighting games, how about we leave the casual party one to the casual party crowd. (this is coming from someone who enjoys playing street fighter a great deal btw)

There is only one franchise like Smash Brothers. It isn't like other fighting games, so saying to leave it as just a shallow slog for casual purposes is still missing the point.

Melee is not just known as the competitive one, it's also known to many as the one with the best mechanics. Those people want to see it improve from there for quality purposes. It really shouldn't be about casuals and hardcores, it should be about trying to aim for perfection, to be a great experience.

I haven't seen anyone yet say it should be hardcore only, and who would listen to that anyway? However, I've seen many who would like to see an improvement, and in my opinion, the PAL version of Melee had the perfect speed.

 

[Razhem]

Good. Those neckbeards should realize this is a party game, not a life or death button masher like they make all the other fighters out there.

You don't make any sense at all. The games are meant to have variety, to suit everyone, that's the magic of it. Hell, in Smash U they've added a new option to make all the stages like Final Destination. I wouldn't say they're completely against the competitive scene.

It does however show they are very ignorant of the scene as final destination is normally a counter pick map which has created a rift between tournaments which actually run real maps and the online FD players. It also doesn't help that most of the 3ds maps are pretty terrible with only around 3-4 maps being viable (Not that big of an issue since most people will use the Wii U version for competitions but it sucks for those wanting to play on 3DS). Plus on top of that the omega mode has imbalances of its own with not every final destination being made equal with there being around 5 different types of final destination IIRC which give certain fights advantages on certain types of final destination.

This really makes me want to scream at the sky, what the hell is a "viable" map supposed to be? And now you are telling me that the Final Destination variants aren't balanced?! For gods sake, for crap like this is why the melee scene is considered to be full of incredibly anal people that suck the joy out of the game. The moment you only use a fraction of the game and then pretend to despite that be catered to baffles me completely.

 

[Razhem]

If the competitive playerbase can't sustain games, how are Starcraft and Street Fighter still going for something like 2+ decades?

A couple of hundred people obsessing about a given game does not sustain it in the way that any company that wants to make money out of it considers valuable, specially when said same people will cry BETRAYAL and MURDER, no matter what you do in the sequel.