Competitive Players Alone Cannot Sustain Smash Bros., Says Sakurai

[Razhem]

If the competitive playerbase can't sustain games, how are Starcraft and Street Fighter still going for something like 2+ decades?

Because games that have a known competitive legacy and are built around the group are obviously going to have more of those people. The reason I would never want this to be a smash staple is simple. I can't bust out street fighter at a party and expect everyone to have a good time. We have plenty of competitive fighting games, how about we leave the casual party one to the casual party crowd. (this is coming from someone who enjoys playing street fighter a great deal btw)

There is only one franchise like Smash Brothers. It isn't like other fighting games, so saying to leave it as just a shallow slog for casual purposes is still missing the point.

Melee is not just known as the competitive one, it's also known to many as the one with the best mechanics. Those people want to see it improve from there for quality purposes. It really shouldn't be about casuals and hardcores, it should be about trying to aim for perfection, to be a great experience.

I haven't seen anyone yet say it should be hardcore only, and who would listen to that anyway? However, I've seen many who would like to see an improvement, and in my opinion, the PAL version of Melee had the perfect speed.

But the thing is, if smash is so unique, why the hell does the competitive crowd want to smother all of the joy in it which is what makes it different? No stage hazards because bad, no items because bad, no more than 2 players because bad, for gods sake, the only mechanics you people keep is stacking damage and sending somebody flying, the rest of the mechanics that make smash SMASH are frowned upon which kind of defeats the point. Expecting special loving when you deny a lot of the point of the game is pure absurdity, I mean, the reason why they probably don't go insane about the perfect physics engine for LOLcombos is because crap is supposed to be happening all the time on screen with explosions everywhere.

 

[Nazulu]

If the competitive playerbase can't sustain games, how are Starcraft and Street Fighter still going for something like 2+ decades?

Because games that have a known competitive legacy and are built around the group are obviously going to have more of those people. The reason I would never want this to be a smash staple is simple. I can't bust out street fighter at a party and expect everyone to have a good time. We have plenty of competitive fighting games, how about we leave the casual party one to the casual party crowd. (this is coming from someone who enjoys playing street fighter a great deal btw)

There is only one franchise like Smash Brothers. It isn't like other fighting games, so saying to leave it as just a shallow slog for casual purposes is still missing the point.

Melee is not just known as the competitive one, it's also known to many as the one with the best mechanics. Those people want to see it improve from there for quality purposes. It really shouldn't be about casuals and hardcores, it should be about trying to aim for perfection, to be a great experience.

I haven't seen anyone yet say it should be hardcore only, and who would listen to that anyway? However, I've seen many who would like to see an improvement, and in my opinion, the PAL version of Melee had the perfect speed.

But the thing is, if smash is so unique, why the hell does the competitive crowd want to smother all of the joy in it which is what makes it different? No stage hazards because bad, no items because bad, no more than 2 players because bad, for gods sake, the only mechanics you people keep is stacking damage and sending somebody flying, the rest of the mechanics that make smash SMASH are frowned upon which kind of defeats the point. Expecting special loving when you deny a lot of the point of the game is pure absurdity, I mean, the reason why they probably don't go insane about the perfect physics engine for LOLcombos is because crap is supposed to be happening all the time on screen with explosions everywhere.

Anyone that wants to smother another persons joy is a dickhead, you always ignore dickheads. If you're saying that most Melee tournament players are like that, that's complete bullshit.

Now if you are just complaining about tournaments in general, then that's silly. The only way to have a fair fight without random interferences is to keep it plain, and that's perfectly fine when people want to play like that. Everyone is allowed there own preference. The stuff that needs to be left out isn't frowned upon, that would be ridiculous. Also, they do have 4 player tournaments, I used to watch them, I know a lot about it.

The last part of the paragraph is fluff. No one is expecting "special love", just talking what they prefer for a better game, like we do with every game ever. We all criticize what we don't like, and praise what we do like.

Saying "denying the point of the game" is absurd in itself, as it was meant to played in any way anyone wants to be played. The freedom of choice is what makes these games special, no one can dictate which way is right or wrong. If you find yourself telling others how they are meant to play the game, you are wrong and should just stop it.

When I'm talking about the mechanics of Melee, I meant how they move, how they hit, how they dodge, the speed, and certain other things that makes Melee a very different game. Melees basic functions are the most fluent and I easily prefer it over the other Smash games.

 

[Bocaj2000]

There's three markets: casual, intermediate, and professional.

Casual represents the skill floor and how easy it is for someone who has never played the game to jump into. Games like SSB have always had a low skill floor so that even a child could play it with ease. More often than not, the 'story mode' of a game establishes the skill floor and completing it is a right of passage into the multi-player realm in which you're expected to be an intermediate.

Intermediate players are the majority of a fan base and the ones that must be appealed to the most. The reason they are the largest group is because they cover the widest range of skill: They have enough knowledge of the game to wipe the floor with any casual, but aren't skilled enough to stand a chance against a professional. In other words, they are competent, but not expert. This is the level of play in which any kind of advantage will be exploited to its fullest: this is where having an objectively better character/equipment/build decides everything and why "pay to win" would be a major problem. I would argue that this is the most important fan base and where a lot of the focus should be to make mid-tier level play as enjoyable as possible. That way you get more professionals.

Similar to a middle class American family not wanting to tax the rich in expectation that they too will be wealthy, intermediate players don't want the game to get more "casual" in expectation that they will be/are professional. All of the problems with intermediate play don't affect professionals because they either already have the best equipment/character/build or know how to use what appears to be lesser ones to their fullest potential. To a professional, there is no such thing as a "bad hand" in a card game nor bad character in a fighting game (yes there are tier lists, but those are to find the marginally better characters, not the objectively bad ones). Poor design simply doesn't affect them as much as intermediate players.

tldr: The focus of appeal should be in the intermediate market since that consists of the most people. The decision to keep SSB4 "casual" was actually a way to keep it intermediate and is a good thing in my book.

EDIT: The only games that have a specific market for the casual are usually freemium games that literally involve no skill and no intermediate/professional market. SSB4 is not a casual game.

 

[ShakerSilver]

This really makes me want to scream at the sky, what the hell is a "viable" map supposed to be? And now you are telling me that the Final Destination variants aren't balanced?! For gods sake, for crap like this is why the melee scene is considered to be full of incredibly anal people that suck the joy out of the game. The moment you only use a fraction of the game and then pretend to despite that be catered to baffles me completely.

Final Destination and variants of it are rather unbalanced in that they favor characters with projectiles as it provides them with plenty of space to spam. It also favors characters with chaingrabs, allowing for them to continue uninterrupted by platforms. Marth can get chaingrab Fox and Falco for days on FD. Characters with poor recovery options also have a hard time on FD due to the lack of platforms preventing them from recovering high as opposed to on the ledge.

Even in Melee FD was never considered completely balanced. Stages like Battlefield and Smashville in Brawl are considered to be more balanced. The only reason why Sakurai picked FD over Battlefield when making stage variants is because the Japanese competitive scene prefers FD and only really plays there because of how their meta developed, and its the only scene Sakurai has ever paid any mind to. Even then, just as the other poster said, not all FD variants are equal: some have walls along the side that allow for easier, but more predictable recovery, favors characters with wall-jumping; some are a lot longer than usual, makes projectile spam easier.

Being ignorant of the topic you're discussing certainly does not give you the right to yell at those you think are "anal". Read up on things you don't fully understand.

A couple of hundred people obsessing about a given game does not sustain it in the way that any company that wants to make money out of it considers valuable, specially when said same people will cry BETRAYAL and MURDER, no matter what you do in the sequel.

A couple hundred? Is that why Melee had a larger stream turnout than Street Fighter 4 at EVO 2013 and 2014? My last statement applies here as well.

 

[gonenow]

Good. Those neckbeards should realize this is a party game, not a life or death button masher like they make all the other fighters out there.

You don't make any sense at all. The games are meant to have variety, to suit everyone, that's the magic of it. Hell, in Smash U they've added a new option to make all the stages like Final Destination. I wouldn't say they're completely against the competitive scene.

It does however show they are very ignorant of the scene as final destination is normally a counter pick map which has created a rift between tournaments which actually run real maps and the online FD players. It also doesn't help that most of the 3ds maps are pretty terrible with only around 3-4 maps being viable (Not that big of an issue since most people will use the Wii U version for competitions but it sucks for those wanting to play on 3DS). Plus on top of that the omega mode has imbalances of its own with not every final destination being made equal with there being around 5 different types of final destination IIRC which give certain fights advantages on certain types of final destination.

This really makes me want to scream at the sky, what the hell is a "viable" map supposed to be? And now you are telling me that the Final Destination variants aren't balanced?! For gods sake, for crap like this is why the melee scene is considered to be full of incredibly anal people that suck the joy out of the game. The moment you only use a fraction of the game and then pretend to despite that be catered to baffles me completely.

Maybe you should really look into the game before you shout at other people. We give the game life and are probably a lot more passionate about the game than casual players. We just understand what can make for an EVEN playing field.

Can you honestly tell me that an items on game on warioware will accurately determine who the best player is?

Sure it sucks we have to eliminate a large portion of the game for competitive games but shock and horror - those things we cut out are still there in the game whenever we want to actually have fun. They don't go anywhere and a lot of people have fun having pokemon battles etc etc just not for competitive games.

 

[FriedRicer]

It baffles me that people still see the presence of advance techniques as a compulsion to use them. If you never cared to wave-dash with your friends - fine. I don't see why my group had to suffer. It feels like a parity issue , where casuals have to have their play-styles validated by removing all extra styles of play.Think about it - does a casual player notice the absence the SHFFL?The DACUS? Will they go to a tourney ? I played the new smash and while it is an improvement, the lack of freedom makes me weep inside at all the wasted potential.No L-cancel - the game decides where & when my move should end. Hit-stun? Pfft. Auto ledge grab still in are you serious? What if I wanted to up-B early on purpose to get a hit?Nope. the move is canceled and Marth grabs the edge....I said his name.I promised I would'nt.Oh, Marth-e-kins... - I need to be alone now.

TLDR : I love Sakurai , but he removed features to cater to a group that are mostly ignorant to the impact of said features on the meta-game longevity. This was not a case of less is more but less is less.

No L-cancel? Better learn how to actually use your moves to not get caught with your pants down.

As long as there isn't anything like Brawl's 'tripping' - better learn the new ruleset and adapt.

^ I did know the moveset - When it began till its end. It's like you never even read what I said. How is adding auto- anything leaving me with my pants down? Sounds like you focused too hard on this "new game, adapt" thing more than the changes is mentioned. Probably the reason why you didn't address them. I have beaten people who have played this game at launch 1 vs x -I'm not bad at Smash . Never was. But the game is so plain now it really hampers creativity when options are removed. I'm not sore - I'm bored.

 

[weirdee]

While I get that people will not be satisfied by this, that's the thing, isn't it? I don't think anything short of ruining the game's future prospects would appeal to the people who keep harping about melee. They're still divided on the Other M project, and that thing's constantly being developed for the sole purpose of pandering to these people! You can keep claiming you're the lifeblood but after the televised competitions are over, it's just constant griping on every single detail even after we left brawl behind.

As for people saying that they're "removing features" to spite anybody, keep in mind that they rebuild this stuff almost entirely from scratch every game so that every game is going to turn out with a different set of results due to varying design elements which may not be as malleable or identical on every Nintendo system thus resulting in an unpredictable metagame development (which people seem to pride themselves over insulting their flaws after the fact), and that they are always challenging Nintendo's hardware and infrastructure to create a game that by all means shouldn't even run like it does on such cheap stuff and cramming way more shit into it than they originally planned on the fly, while the new gen struggles to find its place inbetween the money and the lies. I find the dedication of these developers to the game quite inspiring, and it seems insulting to suggest otherwise.

I mean, I'm kinda sad about Olimar too, but let's be real here he was mostly supported by Brawl's slower gameplay and even when they've ripped the carpet out from under him he still holds up okay with the last set of changes, if not entirely intact

 

[Svarr]

He is absolutely correct in saying it's wise to make the game as appealing as possible to the console's core audience. In the interest of business success, it's the smart move. And, personally, one I fully support.

However...

Appealing to the casual player base DOES NOT, and SHOULD NOT, come at the expense of purposeful nerfing or removal of core features (intended or not) utilized by the competitive player base.

It's one thing to add features that appeal to a wider audience. It's quite another to remove them just to spite a smaller audience.

Well said.

Sakurai, can get rid of the baby stroller though. XD
We're not that casual... >.>

 

[FriedRicer]

As for people saying that they're "removing features" to spite anybody, keep in mind that they rebuild this stuff almost entirely from scratch

The reason Project M exists is due to how little they removed mechanically and how much of melee's code they(Nintendo) ported over for Brawl. In fact , they brought back the old knockback system in smash4 .They have access to the essence most meta players want but disable for parity among player groups that would probably never play together that much anyway(People who hate advanced techniques vs people who don't). Lowering the skill floor of a game makes broadens the appeal and I think if it could be lower - go for it! But lowering the skill ceiling doesn't affect anyone at the bottom but dulls the meta of people who try to get to the ceiling.

Let's say that the average competitive Smash player is at a SkillHeight of 80 and 100 is the Mew2King,Ken - Combo , Gimpyfish level of goodness. Even at that height(80) there is still something to do. Now the next game comes out and the SkillHeight is 55.....the hell?! For the people who will forever remain at a 30 - 40 range it's no biggie but everyone above get's screwed. You go to an outing , pick up the controller for the first time thrash people 1v1 , 1v2, 1v3 - with less movement tools, speed, combos , physics etc. People stereo-type meta-players for neckbeards who just want/need glitches to win but it really sucks when I connect a hit or survive or get a KO and it was really the game on auto-pilot. Seriously , some of the KO's are just...off.

I just play it with items on at Max(Happy Sakurai?) now when ever my cousin asks me to play and I do have fun but in the back of my mind I'll always know it could have gone further.

 

[Lightknight]

Two questions that should be asked:

1. Can the game as is not be played competitively?

2. Could a hardcore mode not have been easily created? (why not both?)

 

[xaszatm]

Two questions that should be asked:

1. Can the game as is not be played competitively?

2. Could a hardcore mode not have been easily created? (why not both?)

1. ...yes.

2. There is a tournament mode being worked on right now (along with Mewtwo and the Miiverse stage), so that should cater to the "hardcore" crowd. Though, all we've seen from it so far is a screen so who knows.

OT: Why do I get the feeling the people who are complaining about how Sakurai is breaking competitive play hasn't actually SEEN a Wii U tournament? Oh, right, because they haven't. Smash 4 is not Melee in techniques, but that's because it's not trying to be and people who are still stuck on that game really need to move on. Smash 4 did address the largest problems of Brawl (no random tripping, changes to air dodging) and added and changed multiple techniques as well. There is now a "rage" mechanic in which larger percentages equals larger knockback, changing how the game is played throughout the match. Wavedashing has been replaced by Perfect Pivoting. Jump Cancel and Dash Cancel has switched in usefulness. Ledge Grabbing Meta-Game has been completely overhauled. So many changes and techniques that have added to the game that so many people are flat out ignoring in favor of screaming how the game isn't like their precious Melee.

 

[Gladion]

I always thought the appeal of competitive Smash was because it was designed to be more casual, but if you were really really good, you could play professionally. Wouldn't reversing that kinda defeat the point?

 

[Atmos Duality]

And once again, Sakurai and the "Pros" seem to miss the point.
It's not a matter of designing the game to appeal to just one or the other; that's not how this works.

Just look at, say, Starcraft 1.
Blizzard did not design Starcraft 1 specifically to appeal to anyone, let alone South Korean gamers and tournament organizers; but it became one of the first proverbial "e-sports/pro games" by virtue of being a great game with a high skill cap.

"Easy to learn, Difficult to Master"

That's what happened with Melee. The only reason there's any backlash to speak of is because, well, a few of those Melee players were INCREDIBLY toxic elitist fuckheads. (I'm not joking when I say I've seen 8+ man brawls and friendships end over that game because of that mentality. It's why I stopped playing highly competitive games.)