Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

dreng3

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How do you compromise with a people who believe that you are so low that they riot when they get in trouble for raping you? How do you compromise with a people that throw garbage and debri at you? How do you compromise with a people who treat you like this?

Like...compromise went out the window ages ago. You might as well ask why Black People wouldn't compromise with Jim Crow Laws or ask why The LGBT won't compromise with The Westboro Baptist Church. How do you compromise with a people who literally want you to die just for existing?

Hey, I'm not the enemy here, I don't like, or respect, Israel anymore than you do (I am the OP of this thread and wanted to draw attention to the horrible treatment of palestinians at the hand of Israel), but I also recognize that if we go down the road of "Israel is STILL illegitimate" there is only two likely outcomes, ethnic cleansing or genocide, neither of which is a moral course of action.

By compromise I don't mean accept whatever Israel wants (nor whatever Hamas wants), but rather have a third party resolve/manage the conflict, hopefully to an extent where both parties find the solution shitty but tolerable.

An eye for an eye is rarely a good course of action, and you won't make every Israeli move somewhere else, so we'll have to be realistic, personally I don't find the borders of the 1995 border unacceptable, but I'd also be open to turning the entire region into a non-state area managed by a coalition government or a third party.

There is no palestinian victory or supremacy anywhere on the horizon and I don't think an agreement should be made on the precondition that both parties are just biding their time until they have the strength to destroy the other, so a forced peace it must be.

(I hope this intoxicated rambling finds you well and I sincerely hope for peace in the region within our lifetimes)
 

tippy2k2

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Hey, I'm not the enemy here, I don't like, or respect, Israel anymore than you do (I am the OP of this thread and wanted to draw attention to the horrible treatment of palestinians at the hand of Israel), but I also recognize that if we go down the road of "Israel is STILL illegitimate" there is only two likely outcomes, ethnic cleansing or genocide, neither of which is a moral course of action.

By compromise I don't mean accept whatever Israel wants (nor whatever Hamas wants), but rather have a third party resolve/manage the conflict, hopefully to an extent where both parties find the solution shitty but tolerable.

An eye for an eye is rarely a good course of action, and you won't make every Israeli move somewhere else, so we'll have to be realistic, personally I don't find the borders of the 1995 border unacceptable, but I'd also be open to turning the entire region into a non-state area managed by a coalition government or a third party.

There is no palestinian victory or supremacy anywhere on the horizon and I don't think an agreement should be made on the precondition that both parties are just biding their time until they have the strength to destroy the other, so a forced peace it must be.

(I hope this intoxicated rambling finds you well and I sincerely hope for peace in the region within our lifetimes)
Just to be clear, I'm (trying at least) not to be aggressive at you, I'm just incredibly irked at what I've learned and I have come to the conclusion that there is only one way for the area to be peaceful; Israel can no longer exist. The rot is just so ingrained into their very culture and people that I see zero ways to save it.

I suppose I could be wrong but that would require a much heavier hand from a third party than is ever going to be used. Like..."The US invading Iraq" heavy hand to get Israel to stop being absolute monsters. Although I suppose that's just as likely as Israel being completely dismantled so I suppose I could cheer for either to happen but I feel like it's way more likely that Israel would get wiped out when they poke the Middle East Hornet's Nest one too many times than for The US to be willing to stage an intervention and get them to stop being such cunts to everyone.
 

tstorm823

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Just to be clear, I'm (trying at least) not to be aggressive at you, I'm just incredibly irked at what I've learned and I have come to the conclusion that there is only one way for the area to be peaceful; Israel can no longer exist. The rot is just so ingrained into their very culture and people that I see zero ways to save it.
Whoever you are "learning" from, shut them out. You clearly lack the disposition to not be talked into genocide, so just don't give others the opportunity.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Just to be clear, I'm (trying at least) not to be aggressive at you, I'm just incredibly irked at what I've learned and I have come to the conclusion that there is only one way for the area to be peaceful; Israel can no longer exist. The rot is just so ingrained into their very culture and people that I see zero ways to save it.

I suppose I could be wrong but that would require a much heavier hand from a third party than is ever going to be used. Like..."The US invading Iraq" heavy hand to get Israel to stop being absolute monsters. Although I suppose that's just as likely as Israel being completely dismantled so I suppose I could cheer for either to happen but I feel like it's way more likely that Israel would get wiped out when they poke the Middle East Hornet's Nest one too many times than for The US to be willing to stage an intervention and get them to stop being such cunts to everyone.

To add to it, the officers at the center of this are claiming they tried to rape the prisoner to death in self defense.

Whoever you are "learning" from, shut them out. You clearly lack the disposition to not be talked into genocide, so just don't give others the opportunity.
 

dreng3

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Just to be clear, I'm (trying at least) not to be aggressive at you, I'm just incredibly irked at what I've learned and I have come to the conclusion that there is only one way for the area to be peaceful; Israel can no longer exist. The rot is just so ingrained into their very culture and people that I see zero ways to save it.

I suppose I could be wrong but that would require a much heavier hand from a third party than is ever going to be used. Like..."The US invading Iraq" heavy hand to get Israel to stop being absolute monsters. Although I suppose that's just as likely as Israel being completely dismantled so I suppose I could cheer for either to happen but I feel like it's way more likely that Israel would get wiped out when they poke the Middle East Hornet's Nest one too many times than for The US to be willing to stage an intervention and get them to stop being such cunts to everyone.
While I'd love for the US to just offer up Indiana as the new jewish homeland I don't think the Israelis would go for that, even though it would more than quadruple their territorry and the neighbours would be less annoying.

And with Israel having nuclear weapons, and the Samson Option being a very real thing I doubt Israel will ever face a truly existential threat.
 
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Eacaraxe

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And with Israel having nuclear weapons, and the Samson Option being a very real thing I doubt Israel will ever face a truly existential threat.
It's hardly been discussed in the wake of more pressing events, but Israel currently faces (and has faced for some time) a very existential threat -- and surprise, it's why Israel's reliant on forever war as an economic vehicle. The country has no peacetime economic foundation, and is artificially supported by US military aid. Its economy is a paper tiger and dependent on perpetual war; it's a PIIGS country with lipstick. You see, Netanyahu signed the country's death warrant fifteen years ago. He did a hardcore neoliberal and broke the economy's back; most notably in the agriculture, education, and housing sectors.

The agriculture one is actually pretty funny; Israel's agriculture industry is dependent on settlement, since most of its agricultural production comes from kibbutz and moshav farming...and the labor on those farms used to come from Palestinian de facto slave labor, until recent events sharply curtailed that for reasons that should be obvious. The next biggest source of Israel agricultural labor is international itinerant labor, mostly from Arab, eastern African, Indian subcontinent, and Pacific island countries; again, not exactly the most secure labor sources in wake of recent events. Israel has such an agricultural labor shortage right now they're pressing IDF recruits, cadets, and soldiers to work fields rather than train or fight (and covering it up by doing a "for the good of the people"/"soldiers working hand-in-hand with the people they serve" propaganda).

Getting more into brass tacks, Israel doesn't actually produce a staple crop. What little wheat and sorghum they produce goes to livestock. Otherwise, it's all fruit, veg, citrus, and...decorative flowers. They produce a trivial amount of grapes (which go to their middling wine industry) and cotton for export. They're completely dependent on import/export.

By the way, here's a funny: the CAWMBLERMUNISMS!-hating right-wingers who love Israel never quite noticed Israel's agricultural sector is dominated by state-sanctioned, subsidized, communal farms. Which would be the rote definition of it, but for the fact it's all "settlement" land and run by the ultra-Orthodox crazies who enjoy immense social, political, and economic privilege under Likud governments...while those demos simultaneously remain the poorest in Israel. If that demographic situation is vaguely reminiscent of that of certain central European countries in the 1930's which shall remain nameless, you're not entirely wrong.

Education speaks for itself. Netanyahu gutted Israel's public education system and poured money into...wait for it...private Orthodox religious schools. Hence the massive brain drain that's been happening for over a decade, peaking with the current genocide.

Housing is even funnier than agriculture: he jacked up property taxes across the board while heavily subsidizing settlements.

Of course, all the typical "gut social welfare, deregulate and deindustrialize" neoliberal nonsense applies, but taken to extreme. Most of Israel's vaunted venture capital sector is foreign investment, subject to the wiles of international whimsy, public perception, and profitability. That famous Israel tech sector is likewise dependent on offshoring, and almost entirely defense tech -- all those US-based MNC's that operate in Israel, offshored their defense departments there and/or contract with Israel for defense applications of existing tech.

In fact, defense is the only economic sector in Israel which doesn't only look good on paper.

That's Netanyahu's catch-22: during his rule, he's seen the transition of Israel into a country whose economy is solely dependent on one thing and one thing alone: Palestinian genocide and manufacturing consent for it. In fact, I could be persuaded to argue the Israeli economy has never been based on anything but war and genocide, given the Israeli boom-bust cycle coincides near-perfectly to cyclical conflicts against Palestine and the external Arab world (it booms during the ramp-up, peaks during the conflict, and busts after its resolution). Except this time around, Netanyahu fucked the country over so thoroughly it has no economic cornerstone independent of Palestinian genocide.

TLDR: no Palestinian or Arab on earth, or country full of them, represents an existential threat to Israel. The BDS movement does, because Netanyahu destroyed Israel's peacetime economy.
 
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Silvanus

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One of the most frequent allegations against Hamas by Israel concerns the use of 'human shields'.

Well, surprise surprise, the IDF itself uses the tactic extensively, as documented by Haaretz and the Israeli veterans' campaign group Breaking the Silence.