Early U.S. and Israeli Intelligence Says Palestinian Group Caused Hospital Blast (Published 2023)
U.S. officials cautioned that the analysis is preliminary and that the United States was continuing to collect and analyze evidence.
Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates
- Thread starter dreng3
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listening to this... why is it very obviously in stereo? One of the people is speaking out of my left earphone and the other the right, it's not even subtle. This is amateur shit.
Biden is a liar, everyone knew that.Early U.S. and Israeli Intelligence Says Palestinian Group Caused Hospital Blast (Published 2023)
U.S. officials cautioned that the analysis is preliminary and that the United States was continuing to collect and analyze evidence.www.nytimes.com
I'm not suggesting any of that. But you dismissed him as just an "influencer", as if he's not very much connected to the government, and that was untrue. And its also a fair point that members of the armed forces are often aware of the manoeuvres that their own organisation is involved in.
To be fair, yes, I shouldn't have said in my first post on this topic that the IDF did it. Because while I think the balance of evidence clearly points towards that as the biggest likelihood, its not certain.
That's the clusterfuck expressed as well as can be. "Man, I sure do hope my side wasn't the one that bombed a hospital" implies both sides are aware that both sides can/would bomb a hospital.
Oh sweet summer child, you have no idea what people are capable of. Remember Hamas isn't the Palestinian government, they couldn't care less about "strategic assets" or "civilians". They care about killing Jews and Islamic uprisings. They would absolutely blow up a hospital - for one, those people are already going to die and are way more valuable as social media fodder blaming the Jews, and for second it enflames racial and ethnic tensions across the world and cast a dark cloud of Biden's trip.
I'm not saying the Israelis wouldn't bomb a hospital, but at least for now the evidence points to Islamic terrorists - I think the name is Gaza Jihad or something like that?
Um.
Hamas was elected in 2006 to govern Gaza. Their power is severely proscribed, but they do in fact run the various ministries and so forth. Including the health ministry. That's why you'll see headlines like "Hamas-run Gaza health ministry says..."-- Hamas took over government functions since 2006.
Hamas militantly took over the Government and have been enacting a totalitarian regime and refusing to hold election, yeah, what's your point? China claims it owns Taiwan, doesn't make it true.
Could've been space aliens.
They were elected democratically, or at least as democratically as would satisfy Jimmy Carter. Then Israel began a siege of Gaza. Hamas is more like the de facto government in Taipei than it is the government of China in your example.
Ah yes, the people who last held an election in 2006, roughly 17 years ago, glowing recommendation from '81 president Jimmy Carter. Maybe we should bring up George H W Bush and Bin Laden while we're 30 years out of date?
There is a difference between the 1980s and 90s, and the 2020s, despite what Nintendo tells you.
It is certainly not democratic, but it is still the gouvernment of Gaza doing all of the gouvernment duties that Gazas situation allows. That is why "being in Hamas" does not necessarily mean being part of its military arm. Of course having been basically 30 years in power without a way to be contested has led to a lot of corruption and you can assume that everything that is relevant or involves money in Gaza is somehow in the hand of Hamas associates.
I will say that I respect you for at least having the honor admit that, at least in this case (As in, Israel didn't hit the hospital on Tuesday), you were wrong. As apposed to other responses here.
....he didn't say he was wrong. He said it was a possibility.
Look, we don't know for certain who perpetrated it. But look at what we do know. No Hamas rocket has ever caused anywhere close to the level of damage done to that hospital before. And on the other hand, the hospital director said the IDF had already fired two mortar shells at the building before, as a "warning". Then we have the fact that the IDF has already bombed numerous hospitals in Gaza. And to top it off, an active in-field member of the IDF tweeted that they did it, before deleting it.
Against that, we have... uhrm, just the IDF denial and the US gov (who don't have investigators on the ground) agreeing. Which don't mean much since we have on-record, acknowledged instances of the IDF denying similar stuff they were proved to have done, such as the bombing of Beit Hanoun elementary school.
The balance of probability very clearly points to the IDF. It ain't certain-- there's the outside chance of a rocket misfiring and then igniting car fuel tanks. But I'm going with the scenario that has already happened numerous times before as the likelier option: the IDF bombing a hospital and then denying it.
Dear God almighty, it's -redacted- all over again.
The HOSPITAL. IS STILL. STANDING. I've provided links to articles SHOWING videos and pictures that show the hospital was not destroyed.
You freaking obfuscating socialists.
A new day and new clarity
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ed-as-israel-insists-militant-rocket-to-blame
The hospital is not a single building. It is a complex of buildings around a central courtyard. Which is where the missile hit.
So "the missile hit the hospital" and "the missile hit the parking lot" are not actually contradictory :
Hosam Naoum, the Anglican bishop of Jerusalem, said: “The hospital has at least seven big buildings, and there’s a courtyard in the middle, with the church also in the middle of the compound. Between the library, the administration and the church, the missile hit the parking lot … inside the hospital.”
As for the high number of victims :
“This morning, when I drove into the hospital, I noted how full the hospital courtyard was with families who had sought refuge, inside the hospital [compound], thinking it would be a safe haven,” Ghassan Abu Sitta, a British-Palestinian doctor, told the Guardian.
About 5,000 people left after the first warning, he said. But many returned when airstrikes pummelled the neighbourhood, hoping the hospital compound might be a relative haven amid Israel’s blanket evacuation order that effectively turned the whole city into a target.
“At that point in time [of the blast], we know there were thousands of people there,” he said. “They received a warning, there were some bombing and airstrikes around the hospital and they fled in, and this has been happening all the time, back and forth, people coming in and out.”
Still very much possible. While today i don't read anywhere the number of 500 (471 seems to be the highest) i also did not find a number below 200 and most sources still talk about hundreds.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ed-as-israel-insists-militant-rocket-to-blame
The hospital is not a single building. It is a complex of buildings around a central courtyard. Which is where the missile hit.
So "the missile hit the hospital" and "the missile hit the parking lot" are not actually contradictory :
Hosam Naoum, the Anglican bishop of Jerusalem, said: “The hospital has at least seven big buildings, and there’s a courtyard in the middle, with the church also in the middle of the compound. Between the library, the administration and the church, the missile hit the parking lot … inside the hospital.”
As for the high number of victims :
“This morning, when I drove into the hospital, I noted how full the hospital courtyard was with families who had sought refuge, inside the hospital [compound], thinking it would be a safe haven,” Ghassan Abu Sitta, a British-Palestinian doctor, told the Guardian.
About 5,000 people left after the first warning, he said. But many returned when airstrikes pummelled the neighbourhood, hoping the hospital compound might be a relative haven amid Israel’s blanket evacuation order that effectively turned the whole city into a target.
“At that point in time [of the blast], we know there were thousands of people there,” he said. “They received a warning, there were some bombing and airstrikes around the hospital and they fled in, and this has been happening all the time, back and forth, people coming in and out.”
Still very much possible. While today i don't read anywhere the number of 500 (471 seems to be the highest) i also did not find a number below 200 and most sources still talk about hundreds.
What does this hospital being hit by either the IDF or Hamas actually conclude? That the IDF hasn't already killed twice as many civilians as Hamas did during their attack, and have shown no signs of stopping yet? Misinformation needs to be fought, but the fervent at which people want to prove the IDF wasn't responsible for this particular slaughter... I guess that makes them, like, 0.3% less guilty of the carnage they've subjected the palestinians to over the decades. 
It is a symbol.What does this hospital being hit by either the IDF or Hamas actually conclude? That the IDF hasn't already killed twice as many civilians as Hamas did during their attack, and have shown no signs of stopping yet? Misinformation needs to be fought, but the fervent at which people want to prove the IDF wasn't responsible for this particular slaughter... I guess that makes them, like, 0.3% less guilty of the carnage they've subjected the palestinians to over the decades.
Because it is a hospital run by the Anglican church they can't do their usual routine of "actually is was a secret Hamas base, trust us on that". In contrast to all their other attacks this is pretty indisputibly a warcrime. Similar to the attack on the evacuation convoy which they also claimed to not be responsible for.
Furthermore the total palestinensian death toll so far in the most recent conflict is around 3500. Over the decades it is around 10000 as far as i can find numbers. If 300 of those go on the hospital attack, that is 3% of the total and thus quite a significant event.
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Or that journalist they killed, which was also Hamas, until later on they admitted 'yeah, maybe sorta could've been us actually'. Also, from what I read the IDF had issued evacuation orders to that hospital (along with multiple other hospitals) prior to the bombing. I mean, seems pretty cut 'n dry.
Did I... say it wasn't standing anymore? No. Do you genuinely think there's no middle ground between a complex being bombed and a complex being completely destroyed?
Neither side disputes the strike caused massive damage and loss of life. No serious outlets dispute that. There is also direct video evidence of the building in flames and bodies in the area of impact.