Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

Specter Von Baren

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So... an open source investigation that explicitly states the death toll is in the hundreds. At odds with what you claimed.
"Gaza’s health ministry said on Wednesday had killed 471 Palestinians and wounded 314 others."

“The number [of casualties] is astronomically high, an absolute high range of all time if true.

The crater is not consistent with an airstrike, it is more likely to be a weapon that failed and released its payload over a wide area.

The crater and surrounding damage is also not consistent with a JDAM aerial bomb. The hole on the ground occurred from kinetic energy.”

"Justin Bronk, the senior research fellow for airpower and military technology at RUSI in London, said that while the results were not conclusive, no crater or obvious shrapnel pattern consistent with standard JDAM bombs was visible in images of the aftermath

If this is the extent of the damage then I’d say an airstrike looks less likely than a rocket failure causing an explosion and fuel fire,” he added."

"Evidence indicates there were cars and hundreds of people gathered or being treated in the hospital compound."

The images do not support you, the comments do not support you, regular common sense does not support you. Give up, move on. Enough of your deliberate and malicious obfuscation.
 

Silvanus

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The images do not support you, the comments do not support you, regular common sense does not support you. Give up, move on. Enough of your deliberate and malicious obfuscation.
Obfuscation of what, exactly? What are you accusing me of obfuscating? The perpetrator of the attack, which I have stated-- correctly-- is uncertain? Your own source doesn't contradict me on that.

You are the only one here making claims that are objectively at odds with the investigation you just posted. Your own source states, in very clear words at the very top, that hundreds were killed. So according to what you just posted, you were wrong.

Bast almighty, this is pathetic.
 

tstorm823

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Or: two quite understandable errors were made, but solely because of your political differences and lack of good faith, you'd prefer to imagine it as part of a sinister campaign of deception.
Again, this is years of the same behavior, with no sign of good faith at any point.
 

Silvanus

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I have no doubt that Israel is satisfied with there being no solution. But as regards Palestinians, it depends on how the question is asked.
It does indeed depend on how the question is asked-- though the very highest number hovers in the 30s, when no specifics are outlined. For a secular formation? You can look at much lower numbers.

And regardless, nobody is going to be able to accomplish a solution that is political anathema to two thirds of the population living in the area: the population of Israel.

Don't get me wrong, the two-state solution is also currently opposed by majorities of both Palestinians and Israelis. But support for the two-state solution often commands support in the 40%+ range in both groups, and has commanded majority support among Palestinians in the past. Those are numbers that can at least be worked with.
 
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Thaluikhain

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I can't believe I'm saying this, but fuck you Biden! What kind of noncommittal answer is that? "No confidence" in the death count? Who the fuck are you scared of? If it's the Republicans, fuck them! They don't give a crap about you anyway!
You gotta reach out to the far-right, in the hopes of getting some support you won't ever actually get, at the cost of alienating your own base. For some reason, it's something done over and over.
 

Seanchaidh

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It does indeed depend on how the question is asked-- though the very highest number hovers in the 30s, when no specifics are outlined. For a secular formation? You can look at much lower numbers.

And regardless, nobody is going to be able to accomplish a solution that is political anathema to two thirds of the population living in the area: the population of Israel.

Don't get me wrong, the two-state solution is also currently opposed by majorities of both Palestinians and Israelis. But support for the two-state solution often commands support in the 40%+ range in both groups, and has commanded majority support among Palestinians in the past. Those are numbers that can at least be worked with.
Any numbers can be worked with and the views of the colonizers are of questionable importance. The continued existence of a regime of Jewish Supremacy cannot be part of a solution because it is most of the problem; an end to the siege of Gaza (to be clear: the blockade that Israel imposed when Hamas was elected) and whatever the hell is supposed to happen with the West Bank settlement project-- even if it is totally dismantled-- still leaves a hostile state capable of incredible violence next door. And that is before we say word one about the right of return.

You know what's funny? You start posting a lot again after months of relative absence, and another user that attacked me frequently during that time seems to fall off the face of the earth. Hmmmm...
 

Ag3ma

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I have no doubt that Israel is satisfied with there being no solution. But as regards Palestinians, it depends on how the question is asked.
Israel is very obviously satisfied with the status quo, because the status quo is the steady de facto annexation of Palestinian land. And the more Palestinian land that Israel fills with Jewish settlers, the less will ever return to the Palestinians in negotiated settlement - short of Israel suffering some sort of crisis that forces it to negotiate from a position of substantial weakness.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Obfuscation of what, exactly? What are you accusing me of obfuscating? The perpetrator of the attack, which I have stated-- correctly-- is uncertain? Your own source doesn't contradict me on that.

You are the only one here making claims that are objectively at odds with the investigation you just posted. Your own source states, in very clear words at the very top, that hundreds were killed. So according to what you just posted, you were wrong.

Bast almighty, this is pathetic.
It isn't uncertain. I have provided multiple sources that show evidence that it was a terrorist rocket, 500 were not killed by it, and it did not hit a hospital. I provide evidence, quotes, videos, pictures, and you response is to pretend it doesn't exist.

I don't quite know WHY you are acting like this, but it's clear that you will never believe the truth.
 

Ag3ma

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and it did not hit a hospital.
Dude, it most certainly hit a hospital.

The relevant issue for a missile is not the precise point of the projectile's impact, but what the blast area hits. And the blast area certainly included the hospital buildings, causing significant damage to them.

It isn't uncertain. I have provided multiple sources that show evidence that it was a terrorist rocket,
Yes, but what about the multiple sources that say it wasn't? There's a summary of competing views recently compiled by the BBC:

A failed / intercepted munition with its fuel igniting on hitting the ground is maybe the most supported answer (consistent with a militant rocket). However, this evidence is far from beyond reasonable doubt either.

I'd also severely question the reliability of nearly all state actors on the issue, given that they are not neutral sources.
 

Silvanus

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It isn't uncertain. I have provided multiple sources that show evidence that it was a terrorist rocket, 500 were not killed by it, and it did not hit a hospital. I provide evidence, quotes, videos, pictures, and you response is to pretend it doesn't exist.
What you posted did not pretend to have a definitive answer about the perpetrator; you're misrepresenting it.

Hundreds were killed. I didn't claim 500 specifically-- I said it was in the hundreds. You claimed hundreds weren't killed, so your own source is directly contradicting only you.

It hit a hospital, in the central parking area. Literally nobody, even your own source, disputes that.

My response has been to actually read the fucking source you posted. And what did I find? It didn't say what you claimed it did, and directly contradicted you on casualties.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Dude, it most certainly hit a hospital.

The relevant issue for a missile is not the precise point of the projectile's impact, but what the blast area hits. And the blast area certainly included the hospital buildings, causing significant damage to them.



Yes, but what about the multiple sources that say it wasn't? There's a summary of competing views recently compiled by the BBC:

A failed / intercepted munition with its fuel igniting on hitting the ground is maybe the most supported answer (consistent with a militant rocket). However, this evidence is far from beyond reasonable doubt either.

I'd also severely question the reliability of nearly all state actors on the issue, given that they are not neutral sources.
One of the dissenting opinions is from the Forensic Architecture agency. Quoting their wiki page.

"It consists of an interdisciplinary team of investigators including architects, scholars, artists, filmmakers, software developers, investigative journalists, archaeologists, lawyers, and scientists. It investigates alleged human rights violations by states or corporations on behalf of civil society groups."

"Forensic Architecture describes forensic work as operating across three spaces: the field, the laboratory, and the forum. Lacking the privileges of the state's forensic process - access to crime scenes, resources, and the power to set the rules of evidence - the agency employs 'counter-forensics', the process of turning the 'forensic gaze' onto the actions of the state. This includes operating in multiple 'forums', or public spaces, engaging not only with parliamentary and juridical processes but also museums, art galleries, citizens' tribunals, and the media. The ways in which the investigations by Forensic Architecture oscillate between judicial proof and art work is subject of an ongoing theoretical debate on evidence, aesthetics, and third-generation institutional critique."

Does this sound like a source for good information? You'll also notice that very few people believe it was an Israeli missile and the place of origin heavily factors into that. We have had four separate governments determine that the odds that this was an Israeli missile are very unlikely, the link you gave me has a picture of the blast site at night without hundreds of bodies around it. And even in the cases where different opinions are given, they never address all of the problems.

You question the reliability of all state actors yet people are still taking it as a given that Gaza is telling the truth?

You say the blast radius caused "significant damage to the hospital yet in the VERY ARTICLE you linked me, it says...

"But we have not seen any evidence of weapon fragments being recovered and there has been no significant update from officials in Gaza about their investigation.
Hamas told the New York Times that the missile had disintegrated beyond recognition. "The missile has dissolved like salt in the water. It's vaporised. Nothing is left," said Ghazi Hamad, a senior Hamas official."

"There were damaged tiles, broken windows and shrapnel marks on surrounding hospital buildings but no visible structural damage."

Is everything beyond reasonable doubt? No. Is all of the evidence showing the snap claim that Israel hit a hospital with a missile and killed 500 people at all believable? No.

Also, stop trying to gaslight me with the "it technically hit the hospital since it hit the parking lot, you all know very well that is not what people that believed the story thought it meant.
 

Ag3ma

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One of the dissenting opinions is from the Forensic Architecture agency. Quoting their wiki page.
You sit here boring us shitless by going on about "logic", but if you were to apply logic to this, it's a) just cherry picking a single source with b) ad hominem.

In a sense, I don't mind you making this argument, but I do think it stinks when you make grandiose claims about how illogical and irrational other people are when you're not putting together a logically sound case yourself. If you were a little more clear-sightedly introspective, I think you'd probably recognise that in this and many other cases, just like most everyone else you pick a side because it suits your emotional and political belief systems, and you'll die on that hill irrespective of the evidence and logic.

You'll also notice that very few people believe it was an Israeli missile and the place of origin heavily factors into that.
I think you can quite plainly notice I said that the most plausible case stated is that a rocket (likely from a Palestinian militant group) failed or broke up over the hospital and then fell on it. This seems a reasonable conclusion to me.

We have had four separate governments
Yes, four governments (including Israel itself) that have supplied what is essentially uncritical and unconditional support for Israel, and I think we need to think very carefully about these governments' history of truthfulness when lying suits their policy objectives - e.g. Saddam's alleged WMDs.

You question the reliability of all state actors yet people are still taking it as a given that Gaza is telling the truth?
Again, in some thoroughly shoddy logic of yours, this is a straw man. I offered no assumption Hamas was telling the truth either.

Is everything beyond reasonable doubt? No. Is all of the evidence showing the snap claim that Israel hit a hospital with a missile and killed 500 people at all believable? No.
What is your weird obsession with this straw man? I don't think that many people were ever wedded to the fact it must have been an Israeli missile, they've long since soaked up the extra information and moved on.

Also, stop trying to gaslight me
Oh look, it's the current zeitgeist buzzword thrown about in lieu of a real point :rolleyes:
 

Seanchaidh

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Israel is very obviously satisfied with the status quo, because the status quo is the steady de facto annexation of Palestinian land. And the more Palestinian land that Israel fills with Jewish settlers, the less will ever return to the Palestinians in negotiated settlement - short of Israel suffering some sort of crisis that forces it to negotiate from a position of substantial weakness.
A withdrawing of US support could be such a crisis.

Is all of the evidence showing the snap claim that Israel hit a hospital with a missile and killed 500 people at all believable? No.
Of course it's believable. It is possible to have that many people gathered in an area. It is possible for Israel to bomb that area. Israel has dropped many thousands of bombs on Gaza. They also specifically warned that hospital to evacuate so they could bomb it, as with other hospitals. Israel then released some obviously fake audio to frame someone else; that it was an Israeli munition remains the most likely explanation.
 

Seanchaidh

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damn, this would be a sick as hell 7 Days to Die base... not very (any) good at stopping zombie hordes, but quite fun to build.

Anyway, it's very weird for a government to present this as 'proof' of something. Wow, you've got some people who can do 3d graphics and draw red shapes on an image. So convincing!