Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

Seanchaidh

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Okay so did Israel really send ground forces in? Now Im reading articles that say no, the Israelis tricked everyone into thinking they did and actively targeted news outlets during their bombs so no one could contradict them.
I don't think I'd characterize it as trickery... unless I had more info which indicated such. They've 'engaged' Gaza with bombs and artillery and have since clarified that they hadn't committed ground troops inside Gaza (I don't know if that's still true). They seem to be finding uses for their soldiers elsewhere than Gaza. Helping the lynch mobs, perhaps.
 

tippy2k2

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The Pen is mightier than The Sword I have heard so it makes sense that instead of bombing apartments with mystery weapons hiding inside them, they would want to target The Media too. They shot first with their "Hey, can you stop bombing us?" attack so Israel was just defending itself, right?
 

Agema

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Oh, no, those borders accomplished their function quite well: To force distinct, historically-hostile groups to intermingle so that they would always be at each others' throats, rather than resisting Western schemes for cheap oil.
It wasn't quite that arbitrary.

The Arabian peninsula essentially represents what the local autocrats controlled without much external interference. Syria and Egypt were effectively units with their own pre-existing identity. The completely artificial creations are Palestine/Israel, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq. The basic point of Iraq was something large enough so that it wouldn't just be instantly carved up and annexed by its neighbours (particularly Iran). Palestine/Israel is the clusterfuck we all know about. Lebanon a little cluster with its own character that didn't really fit with anything else, and that left Jordan as that bit between all the others that was mostly just desert wandered over by Bedouin nomads they couldn't really decide to do anything else with (and maybe ironically, possibly the most stable of the lot).

Now Africa, that was a real screw-up with the borders.
 

Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

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Oh, no, those borders accomplished their function quite well: To force distinct, historically-hostile groups to intermingle so that they would always be at each others' throats, rather than resisting Western schemes for cheap oil.
"As the Savages squabble, our Empires will shine forever." - Empires that died nearly 80 years ago and we are still dealing with their bullshit.
 

Agema

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"As the Savages squabble, our Empires will shine forever." - Empires that died nearly 80 years ago and we are still dealing with their bullshit.
Dude, we're still dealing with the bullshit of empires a thousand years or more dead.
 

SilentPony

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"As the Savages squabble, our Empires will shine forever." - Empires that died nearly 80 years ago and we are still dealing with their bullshit.
I mean depends on which Empire you're talking about. The American Empire, the only reason Israel still exists thanks to financial and military support, LOVES an super armed Jewish state smack in the middle of the Arabian world. They're the first line of defense against a unified Arabian world. They're fucking with Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia. It just going to suck for them when they realize the US is invested in them for 2 reasons: Bring about the Rapture, and as sacrificial lambs in the middle east. They're children have mandatory military service so that American's don't have to.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Honestly, I'm not really liking the holocaust comparisons. Like, the nazis were fast and overt. If Israel were trying annihilate Gaza, it'd look a lot more Warsaw Ghetto. The Nazi comparisons feed into some really bullshit white nationalist talking points.

Which have isn't to say what's going on isn't atrocious. South Africa on steroids.


The Pen is mightier than The Sword I have heard so it makes sense that instead of bombing apartments with mystery weapons hiding inside them, they would want to target The Media too. They shot first with their "Hey, can you stop bombing us?" attack so Israel was just defending itself, right?
See, the building was a "Hamas HQ". Of course, any building can be a Hamas HQ, so...I guess the Gaza Strip just isn't allowed buildings, as decided on the whims of the IDF?

Like, let's take the IDF on faith that Hamas is actively using human shields. The correct response is then to *not bomb the shield that is composed of humans*. Even if we believe the state propaganda wholeheartedly, the IDF is still doing war crimes by indiscriminately shooting the hostage. It's the cops vs UPS driver situation scaled up to national military levels.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Like, let's take the IDF on faith that Hamas is actively using human shields. The correct response is then to *not bomb the shield that is composed of humans*. Even if we believe the state propaganda wholeheartedly, the IDF is still doing war crimes by indiscriminately shooting the hostage. It's the cops vs UPS driver situation scaled up to national military levels.
 
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Hawki

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It would be better than the current situation which is horrific.
Hamas rule would mean the removal of every Jew in Israel, and the creation of an Islamic state.

I mean, okay, if that's what you want...

Sure: but we're talking about Palestine, here. There's no point arguing that Saudi Arabia creating a hostile environment for Christians proves Hamas are responsible for victimising Christians.
I didn't mention Saudi Arabia.

But that aside, the de-Christianization of the ME is a process that's gone on for centuries, and especially over the last century, well before SA started exporting Washabism. Hamas is part of that process, and is explicit in their charter.

And yet still, the most prominent reason by a huge margin given by Palestinian Christians is that the conflict is destroying their livelihoods and opportunities and that they are fed up with Israeli harassment for being Palestinians, not that they were attacked by Palestinian Muslims or discriminated against by the PA. See for instance:

The second link is far more explicit than the first in that, the first highlights Muslim antagonism towards Christians as much as Jewish.

This is also true of Lebanon. Christians were a majority in Lebanon for most of its history from independence, and basically ran it up to its civil war. They are a minority now because they are emigrating out: not because of discrimination but to avoid the disorder. They are relatively highly educated, relatively wealthy, connected into the global community, so they have relatively high ability to leave and integrate well into Western society with all its wealth and opportunities, so they have done so.
That's leaving out Hezbollah and other Islamist groups that operate within Lebanon, not to mention discrimination from the government itself (e.g. increased taxes and denial of land), not to mention that Lebanon is a safe haven for Christians who've fled persecution in neighbouring countries.

Like, I know this is arguably falling into whataboutism, but consider the state of the ME - Zoroastrianism's been erradicated outside some small pockets in Iran. Christianity's in its death throes outside Lebanon. The Jews have a single state (Israel), and have been driven out from every ME country (and North Africa for that matter). So while none of this excuses Israel's own sins, when people propose a secular state, what do they think is going to happen, and why would it be different from every other country in the region? I mean, the Two State Solution is pretty much dead (partly because the PLO has rejected at least five offers of a separate state, partly because of Israel's settlement policy), so the One State Solution isn't too absurd a prospect, but since minority rights aren't safeguarded in the ME, and power sharing led to corruption in Lebanon, then, well...

Like, let's take the IDF on faith that Hamas is actively using human shields. The correct response is then to *not bomb the shield that is composed of humans*. Even if we believe the state propaganda wholeheartedly, the IDF is still doing war crimes by indiscriminately shooting the hostage. It's the cops vs UPS driver situation scaled up to national military levels.
Hamas openly brags about using human shields, this isn't a secret.

Also, the "solution" isn't much of a solution. It's basically relying on the Iron Dome to operate with 100% efficiency (which it can't, it can intercept 80% of rockets), which basically means constant bombardment.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Also, the "solution" isn't much of a solution. It's basically relying on the Iron Dome to operate with 100% efficiency (which it can't, it can intercept 80% of rockets), which basically means constant bombardment.
There are more options besides complete passivity and "kill them all, let god sort them out, raze the Strip"
 

Hawki

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There are more options besides complete passivity and "kill them all, let god sort them out, raze the Strip"
Well, fortunately, that isn't what's happening.

Israel could wipe Gaza off the face of the Earth if they wanted to. That hasn't happened.

No, says Hamas. Quite explicitly. Actually even more explicitly since I've given them the benefit of the doubt that they'd simply expel all the Jews rather than actually bother wiping them out, despite statements of such intent.
 

Seanchaidh

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No, says Hamas. Quite explicitly. Actually even more explicitly since I've given them the benefit of the doubt that they'd simply expel all the Jews rather than actually bother wiping them out, despite statements of such intent.
Just ignoring everything Agema posted, then?
 

Hawki

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Just ignoring everything Agema posted, then?
No, I read both charters, not to mention numerous Hamas quotes that call for Jewish eradication. Even the 2017 charter, which tones down the language, still calls for an Islamic state.
 

Agema

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Hamas rule would mean the removal of every Jew in Israel, and the creation of an Islamic state.
No, Hamas rule would mean the disenfranchisement of post-1947 Jewish immigrants to Israel into becoming non-citizens. What happens after that might be hard to say.

I didn't mention Saudi Arabia.
You cited articles that did as the basis of your argument, and thus they are the basis of your argument, too. But Palestine is conspicuously little mentioned in those articles. They make a very general case without proper reference to the specifics you are talking about.

Hamas is part of that process, and is explicit in their charter.
The Hamas charter definitely does not explicitly support de-Christianisation: quite the opposite, in fact. Although I suspect in practice, Hamas would not be terribly concerned about persecution of Christians beyond the PR damage in the international community.

But that aside, the de-Christianization of the ME is a process that's gone on for centuries, and especially over the last century, well before SA started exporting Washabism. Hamas is part of that process, and is explicit in their charter.
Well, sure. de-Christianisation has been going on since the 7th century, if you want to look at it that way, but it's not necessarily very useful to go back that far.

There has clearly been a rapid decline in the last few decades, attributable in large part to emigration. But that emigration has more been driven by war, disorder and economic hardship than anything else. In many cases, where persecution has occurred, it has been enabled by this war and disorder. Much war and disorder has been inflicted by Western and Israeli actions. Al-Qaida and ISIS were born of resentment of Western interference, and ISIS flourished in Iraq where the West destroyed the local authority. At a significant step down in Islamism, being much more pragmatic / nationalist, Hezbollah was founded in response to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, and Hamas in response to the First Intifada. Hezbollah was subsequently vastly empowered by the 2006 Israeli attack on Lebanon, and Hamas by the persistent failure of Israel and Fatah to secure a future for the Palesinians.

Key here of course is the fact that the West is viewed as Christian. Every time the West interferes politically or militarily, it can be perceived by some Middle Easterners as an attack by Christians on Muslims, and increases the risk that the native Christian populations become viewed as an enemy within. The upswing in Islamic fundamentalism such as Wahhabism makes this even more likely.

This is the tragic truth. The West and Israel have probably done more to de-Christianise the Middle East than centuries of preceding Muslim rule without their interference. Although of course, Israel couldn't give a shit about de-Christianisation and in terms of Israel/Palestine, effectively supports it.

That's leaving out Hezbollah and other Islamist groups that operate within Lebanon, not to mention discrimination from the government itself (e.g. increased taxes and denial of land), not to mention that Lebanon is a safe haven for Christians who've fled persecution in neighbouring countries.
Hezbollah was founded in 1982. The Christian population of Lebanon has been in relative decline (much through emigration) significantly longer. See also above about the drivers for Hezbollah's growth. Iran can supply arms and funds, but it is anger against Israel that drives recruitment
 
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Seanchaidh

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No, I read both charters, not to mention numerous Hamas quotes that call for Jewish eradication. Even the 2017 charter, which tones down the language, still calls for an Islamic state.
by that logic Israel's commitment to a Jewish state necessarily means expelling or murdering everyone who is not Jewish.