Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

MrCalavera

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So, can someone smarter than me explain to me why Jerusalem isn't aan international city like the Vatican (IE, a three state solution)?
Vatican is important to a single religious denomination.The Holy See has been the one, independent administrator of this area for centuries now.
The country surrounding the Enclave being predominantly Catholic, and more importantly a stable democracy doesn't harm either.

Compare that to Jerusalem which contains holy sites important to 3 major monoteistic religions with all their splits and sects.
And have changed the "owners" from jewish, muslim, to christian, to muslim, to jewish again over the course of history.
And is an actual city with almost a million of citizens, instead of a single hill in Rome with circa 1000 permament residents.

Independent Jerusalem might've work out as well as the Free City of Danzig back in the day.
 

Hawki

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Yeah... no. There are DEFINITELY Uyghur who want that. The Uyghur done LOTS of bombing against China. (Also, a bunch of these Uygurs took part in the Syrian Civil War, just like some Australian Muslims went over there to fight. There's like a over a million of them, of course there are going to be some terrorists) BUT, as with the IDF and Hamas, this group is a small part of the population. Not pointing this out is criminal if you're going to try to justify murder. Using train bombing as a way to round up a whole demographic is, over a million people, is just criminal
All true. However, again, here's the differences:

-China isn't surrounded by countries who tried to wipe it out.

-Han Chinese weren't ethnically cleansed from those countries.

-While it's true that Ughyrs comitted terrorist acts, no Ughyr group, to my knowledge, has the explicit goal of destroying China and replacing it with a Muslim state.

The history of East Turkestan is also different from Israel-Palestine. There's similarities, but the key difference is that with the Ughyrs, it's a group of people (Ughyrs) who came under control of another group (China). Israel-Palestine is a case of two (main) groups of people within the same piece of land wanting control of the land, another group partitioning the land, groups outside the land sparking a war, and so on and so forth.

Lastly, I didnt mean all those people i listed WERE committing genocide (eg. Mandala.) I was trying to state that I don't care which country or leader you are, I'm against any genocidal tendencies (eg. IF Mandala pulled a Zimbabwe, Id be against him.)
If by "pulling a Zimbabwe" you mean Mugabe's expelling of white farmers and tanking the economy, I don't know if that's genocide.

Like, to be clear, I think farm reform in Zimbabwe and South Africa is/were a good idea. Only in the case of Mugabe, he destroyed his country's economy in the process. Similarly, Zimbabwe didn't have the same no. of European settlers that South Africa did.
 

Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

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Every time I look at news like this about the Middle East I think to myself. "All this is happening because the British were bad at drawing borders."

Also about I want to bring up that forcibly removing people from their land is genocide, genocide is not strictly killing all of them but removing people and their culture.

Also removing people's culture like Banning language, clothing, customs, and forced re-education is genocide, it's called cultural genocide (the genocide you do so you can lie to yourself that you're not doing genocide.) This is off topic but people are also bringing up the Ughyrs here and I feel like this must be stated.
 
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Hawki

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China wasn't founded on land theft and ethnic cleansing.
-Pretty much all countries are founded on the above.

-Even that aside, China is doing that right now in East Turkestan, Tibet, and Inner Mongolia.

-Focusing purely on Israel-Palestine, the ethnic cleansing has gone both ways. Palestinians were removed from Israel, just as Jews were removed from Palestine, and expelled from ME countries. Similarly, Jordan demolished Jewish neighbourhoods when it occupied Palestine, and now, Israel is doing the same thing, while ethnic cleansing of Jews is still going on in Yemen for instance.

If you want to make the argument that the sins of ME countries don't excuse Jewish encroachment into Palestine, then yes, that's correct. But that isn't Hamas's goal. Hamas's goal is, to quote their own charter, the erradication of Israel, the explicit rejection of a single, secular state (which is what some have proposed since the Two State Solution is pretty much dead), and replacing the land with a single Islamic state. What happens to the Jews (and Christians) under this state is something I'll leave to your imagination, if you have the stomach for it.
 
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Hawki

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Every time I look at news like this about the Middle East I think to myself. "All this is happening because the British were bad at drawing borders."
That's technically true, but two things to keep in mind:

-The Israeli-Palestinian conflict goes back to the 19th century (this isn't including the long history of anti-semitism in the ME), at which point, the region was under control of the Ottomans.

-The borders of Israel-Palestine by the UN, not the UK.
 

Agema

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If you want to make the argument that the sins of ME countries don't excuse Jewish encroachment into Palestine, then yes, that's correct. But that isn't Hamas's goal. Hamas's goal is, to quote their own charter, the erradication of Israel, the explicit rejection of a single, secular state (which is what some have proposed since the Two State Solution is pretty much dead), and replacing the land with a single Islamic state.
I think you're talking about the founding, 1988 charter.

Hamas moved on and said it was obsolete, eventually replacing it with the 2017 charter, which - at least as an interim measure - accepts a two-state solution with the 1967 borders.

What happens to the Jews (and Christians) under this state is something I'll leave to your imagination, if you have the stomach for it.
Okay, I think you really do not understand what the Hamas charter is about.

Hamas is not ISIS, or even close. The Hamas charter envisages Palestine as a single state representing Palestinians. A Palestinian, as far as they are concerned, is any person resident in Palestine prior to 1947 and their descendants, irrespective of religion. They most certainly view Palestine as an Islamic state: but an Islamic state in the tradition where those of other religions are free to practice without persecution. Let's remember over 10% of Palestinians are Christian, and overwhelmingly they were accepted for centuries and still are.

In the context that Israel is through its constitution explicitly a Jewish state that permits freedom to pursue other religions, one might therefore argue that the main difference between Israel and Hamas' dream of Palestine could be considered simply whether Judiasm or Islam is the state and majority religion.
 

Seanchaidh

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-Pretty much all countries are founded on the above.
No, not really.

-The Israeli-Palestinian conflict goes back to the 19th century (this isn't including the long history of anti-semitism in the ME), at which point, the region was under control of the Ottomans.
Israel was founded in 1948 at the start of its campaign of ethnic cleansing that has continued, in fits and starts, until today.
 

McElroy

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One of the few places where a formalistic approach to sovereignty doesn't work, because Israelis will push their power further and further, treating resistance as proof they have to do it.
And there was a gym at Auschwitz.
Auschwitz I isn't even bad when it comes to concentration/work camps. Now the Birkenau side -- Auschwitz II -- that's where the troubles began. And the people in charge were bad, of course.
 

Hawki

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accepts a two-state solution with the 1967 borders.

I can't find a mention of a two-state solution. Notably, it claims Jerusalem as its capital.

Hamas is still predicated on the idea of an "Islamic state." It's actually kind of eerie reading it, in that it's a mirror image of Zionism.

Okay, I think you really do not understand what the Hamas charter is about.

Hamas is not ISIS, or even close. The Hamas charter envisages Palestine as a single state representing Palestinians. A Palestinian, as far as they are concerned, is any person resident in Palestine prior to 1947 and their descendants, irrespective of religion.
You're pulling a "technically." It's the question of de facto vs. de jure.

I mean, any reading of the charter shows that Islam is being given special treatment.

They most certainly view Palestine as an Islamic state: but an Islamic state in the tradition where those of other religions are free to practice without persecution. Let's remember over 10% of Palestinians are Christian, and overwhelmingly they were accepted for centuries and still are.
Christianity is practically extinct in the ME, and Hamas has done its fair share of persecution.

80% of Christians fled Gaza under Hamas rule. Under the PLO, the Christian population of Bethlehem went from 80% to 15%.

The only region in the ME where Christianity has any notable presence left is Lebanon, and, um, things aren't going well there, to say the least. The only reason it does is because of a power sharing agreement.

Hypothetically, Hamas could not persecute Christians, and hypothetically, could not expel Jews from their state like every other ME country has done, but that's a big "hypothetically."

In the context that Israel is through its constitution explicitly a Jewish state that permits freedom to pursue other religions, one might therefore argue that the main difference between Israel and Hamas' dream of Palestine could be considered simply whether Judiasm or Islam is the state and majority religion.
In a sense, yes. As I commented, the Hamas Charter is an eerie mirror of Zionism, in that it asserts exclusive sovereignty.

However, Hamas's record is clear, as is the record of the ME - minority rights aren't really a thing. That's not to say Israel is a saint, but when everyone's ten feet deep in shit, the person five feet deep in shit is, at the end of the day, less shit.

No, not really.
Human history (and genetic history for that matter) begs to differ.

Israel was founded in 1948 at the start of its campaign of ethnic cleansing that has continued, in fits and starts, until today.
First, none of that contradicts what I said - I've already explained how and why the conflict in its current form dates back to the 19th century. it's a gross misreading of history to say "long ago, the region was at peace, but everything changed when Israel was founded."

Second, if you want to look at the Nakba in isolation, you can, but I can't. I can't ignore the facts that:

a) Just as Palestinians were expelled from Israeli territory, Jews were expelled from Palestinian territory (in a war where the goal was destroying Israel with threats of outright extermination)

b) That after Jordan annexed the West Bank, the cleansing of Jews continued, as well as the wholesale destruction of Jewish architecture

c) That in the aftermath of the war, Jews were similarly expelled from all surrounding countries, and are still being expelled, to the point that Judaism is almost erradicated in the Middle East (Christianity's on a similar path).

Now, none of this exonerates Israel (certainly it's hindered chances of a Palestinian state by allowing settlements in Occupied Palestine), nor are the Palestinians responsible for the sins of the Arab states (including the citizenship refusal issue), but if your stance is "yay Hamas" (which it seems to be, since you've called for them to have even more support than what Iran is providing them with), I'm curious as to what you think a Hamas victory would actually mean (which is the second time I've asked this question, and you haven't responded). In all likelihood, all Jews would be expelled (again), and likely have to flee to Europe (again).
 

Agema

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Christianity is practically extinct in the ME, and Hamas has done its fair share of persecution.

80% of Christians fled Gaza under Hamas rule. Under the PLO, the Christian population of Bethlehem went from 80% to 15%.
They haven't actually been persecuted much at all. Maybe more so recently, with the rise of more aggressive Wahhabism.

The issue with Palestinian Christians is that were more likely to be middle class, and had better international connections, so found the deprivation caused by economic blockade more frustrating and it more easy to emigrate. So emigrate they did (many to South America). The same is true of Lebanon - Christians have been more able and likely to flee the disorder to the West. It's funny you should talk about the Palestinian Christians in Bethlehem leaving. The main complaint for them going is that Israel stole/destroyed their economy. Israel has also encouraged Christian Palestinians to emigrate all the way back since the 1950s, because honestly they're not terribly welcome either.

Hamas are by no means nice people. But they don't need to be made any worse just to simplify a good guys / bad guys narrative.
 

Hawki

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They haven't actually been persecuted much at all. Maybe more so recently, with the rise of more aggressive Wahhabism.

The issue with Palestinian Christians is that were more likely to be middle class, and had better international connections, so found the deprivation caused by economic blockade more frustrating and it more easy to emigrate. So emigrate they did (many to South America). The same is true of Lebanon - Christians have been more able and likely to flee the disorder to the West. It's funny you should talk about the Palestinian Christians in Bethlehem leaving. The main complaint for them going is that Israel stole/destroyed their economy. Israel has also encouraged Christian Palestinians to emigrate all the way back since the 1950s, because honestly they're not terribly welcome either.

Usually I'm wary of posting articles by way of responses, but to the first...no. The Christian decline in the ME has been going on for a century. It may have intensified recently, but that doesn't refute the trend.

Second, I can actually believe you about Israel wanting to drive out Christians, but the Palestinian Authority (and Palestinian Muslims) have done their fair share of it as well. And while this is potentially a separate issue, Israel isn't responsible for what goes on beyond its own borders. Statistically, the most oppressed religious group on Earth are Christians (at least in terms of raw number), but it's not a fact that you'll hear bandied around much for various reasons.

Hamas are by no means nice people. But they don't need to be made any worse just to simplify a good guys / bad guys narrative.
I absolutely agree. Unfortunately, that's not the discourse (at least), which is "Hamas good, Israel bad" (or "Israel bad, everyone else good).

I don't think anyone really holds the moral high ground here.
 

Seanchaidh

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I'm curious as to what you think a Hamas victory would actually mean (which is the second time I've asked this question, and you haven't responded)
It would be better than the current situation which is horrific.

Unfortunately, that's not the discourse (at least), which is "Hamas good, Israel bad" (or "Israel bad, everyone else good).
Israelis in their own words:
 

hanselthecaretaker

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Haven’t read through everything so apologies if already posted -


Kinda ironic the events of the Holocaust spurred the creation of the modern Israeli state, along with all the protection and funding needing to commit acts not far removed from itself.

Makes it easy to think that cynicism is merely a byproduct of humanity’s worst qualities.
 

Agema

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Sure: but we're talking about Palestine, here. There's no point arguing that Saudi Arabia creating a hostile environment for Christians proves Hamas are responsible for victimising Christians.

...but the Palestinian Authority (and Palestinian Muslims) have done their fair share of it as well.
And yet still, the most prominent reason by a huge margin given by Palestinian Christians is that the conflict is destroying their livelihoods and opportunities and that they are fed up with Israeli harassment for being Palestinians, not that they were attacked by Palestinian Muslims or discriminated against by the PA. See for instance:


This is also true of Lebanon. Christians were a majority in Lebanon for most of its history from independence, and basically ran it up to its civil war. They are a minority now because they are emigrating out: not because of discrimination but to avoid the disorder. They are relatively highly educated, relatively wealthy, connected into the global community, so they have relatively high ability to leave and integrate well into Western society with all its wealth and opportunities, so they have done so.
 

SilentPony

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Okay so did Israel really send ground forces in? Now Im reading articles that say no, the Israelis tricked everyone into thinking they did and actively targeted news outlets during their bombs so no one could contradict them.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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Every time I look at news like this about the Middle East I think to myself. "All this is happening because the British were bad at drawing borders."
Oh, no, those borders accomplished their function quite well: To force distinct, historically-hostile groups to intermingle so that they would always be at each others' throats, rather than resisting Western schemes for cheap oil.