Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

[crimson5pheonix]

What...? Cynical actors don't need genuine supporters of the ideology to make the argument. They just need people who're disposed to condemn racism, and also can't very well tell the difference between criticism of a state and racism.

Hence why the accusation of 'russophobia' was thrown at people who criticised the Russian government's invasion. That accusation didn't require loads of casual readers to be sympathetic with Russian imperialism. It was just a lazy smear.

It's required to be effective. The press can't credibly use it as a smear and expect results unless there's a large and sustained belief that it's actually true, a belief that's fostered by both the cynical actors and the actual believers simultaneously, making them indistinct from each other. In other words, Zionists wanted their political opponents removed, they've made an atmosphere where they could be removed, and then they were removed. And once again, the individual feelings of the people pushing Zionism do not at all enter the equation. Whether they're pushing Zionism because they think Jesus will come back, or if they want to start a farm in Palestire, or they just want their political rivals to lose, it doesn't matter. Zionists created the pressure, saying that the purge was Zionist directed is just a statement of fact.

 

[Silvanus]

It's required to be effective. The press can't credibly use it as a smear and expect results unless there's a large and sustained belief that it's actually true, a belief that's fostered by both the cynical actors and the actual believers simultaneously, making them indistinct from each other. In other words, Zionists wanted their political opponents removed, they've made an atmosphere where they could be removed, and then they were removed. And once again, the individual feelings of the people pushing Zionism do not at all enter the equation. Whether they're pushing Zionism because they think Jesus will come back, or if they want to start a farm in Palestire, or they just want their political rivals to lose, it doesn't matter. Zionists created the pressure, saying that the purge was Zionist directed is just a statement of fact.

Yet, I've watched it have a convincing effect on people who have no particular affinity for Zionism or the state of Israel whatsoever. Zionism simply does not have the same weight or baggage to the UK public that it does in the US.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Yet, I've watched it have a convincing effect on people who have no particular affinity for Zionism or the state of Israel whatsoever. Zionism simply does not have the same weight or baggage to the UK public that it does in the US.

The UK votes on a ceasefire as well as the fact that Zionists purged the anti-Zionists from the supposedly left wing party paint a different picture. Or more accurately, you're picking a very specific counter example to weight against instead of viewing things on their own merits.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

 

[Silvanus]

The UK votes on a ceasefire as well as the fact that Zionists purged the anti-Zionists from the supposedly left wing party paint a different picture.

The UK vote on the ceasefire was made by the government-- not the Labour Party or the public. The British public overwhelmingly supports a ceasefire. How does that square with the idea that accusations of antisemitism only had traction because the public has a massive and ardent Zionist contingent?

And the purge, of course, was much wider. Hundreds of members were excluded (often automatically), and a relatively small minority of them could arguably be traced to their views on Israel. Shitty and authoritarian, definitely. But much more to do with consolidating power and direction.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

The UK vote on the ceasefire was made by the government-- not the Labour Party or the public. The British public overwhelmingly supports a ceasefire. How does that square with the idea that accusations of antisemitism only had traction because the public has a massive and ardent Zionist contingent?

The same way the majority of Americans want a ceasefire and realistically only a minority conflate anti-Zionism with antisemitism, but our government worked against those ideas too. The UK has the same issues with the Zionists holding outsized political influence. There doesn't have to be a ton of pro-Zionist sentiment in the populace, just enough for interviewers to have reliable soundbites from. And to have enough people to go to bat for the Zionists by trying to tar anti-Zionism as antisemitic conspiracy theories.

 

[Kwak]

feels like am completely losing my mind, it just won't stop getting worse

It's okay to take a break and focus on gardening and chooks for a while you know, sometimes it's better not to keep up with the world unravelling around you, it will just do what it will.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Israel is turning the Star of David into another swastika.

I can only assume you've failed to follow the point being made, then.

nope

 

[Thaluikhain]

It's okay to take a break and focus on gardening and chooks for a while you know, sometimes it's better not to keep up with the world unravelling around you, it will just do what it will.

Very much second this. Personally, I find it useful to look up previous disasters the world has coped with, but that might not be for everyone.

 

[Gyrobot]

Or we can all fatalistically embrace the disaster out of the making by the politicians as the Palestinians are about to extinct.

 

[Silvanus]

The same way the majority of Americans want a ceasefire and realistically only a minority conflate anti-Zionism with antisemitism, but our government worked against those ideas too. The UK has the same issues with the Zionists holding outsized political influence. There doesn't have to be a ton of pro-Zionist sentiment in the populace, just enough for interviewers to have reliable soundbites from.

OK, so when you said that the smear tactic required genuine believers in the ideology to work, you weren't talking about a sizeable or popular group among the population-- you just meant enough talking heads to make interview clips?

OK, yeah, the smear tactic might need 5-10 committed believers to really sell it. I thought we were discussing actually sizeable demographics-- and at least now we're on the same page that this lobby doesn't have significant membership or size in the UK.

So yeah. That leaves us with the smear tactic making most of its traction among people who don't give a hoot about Zionism (or even know what it is), driven by cynical actors who also don't care. But also a handful of believers for interviews.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

OK, so when you said that the smear tactic required genuine believers in the ideology to work, you weren't talking about a sizeable or popular group among the population-- you just meant enough talking heads to make interview clips?

OK, yeah, the smear tactic might need 5-10 committed believers to really sell it. I thought we were discussing actually sizeable demographics-- and at least now we're on the same page that this lobby doesn't have significant membership or size in the UK.

So yeah. That leaves us with the smear tactic making most of its traction among people who don't give a hoot about Zionism (or even know what it is), driven by cynical actors who also don't care. But also a handful of believers for interviews.

And these people are Zionists, they have through direct or indirect means directed a purge within Labour, and thus Sean was right at the start for stating an obvious fact, yes, congrats on catching back up with the plot.

 

[Kwak]

Or we can all fatalistically embrace the disaster out of the making by the politicians as the Palestinians are about to extinct.

It absolutely deserves our horror and anger, and if you're in a position to take a positive action no matter how small or futile that's a good thing, but also recognise when you need to focus on what's in front of you for your own ability to be functional in this shitshow of an era in time.

 

[Silvanus]

And these people are Zionists, they have through direct or indirect means directed a purge within Labour, and thus Sean was right at the start for stating an obvious fact, yes, congrats on catching back up with the plot.

This is just restatement of your original position, which hasn't been convincingly established. What we have established in the interim is that the actions of the Party and Press (1) do not require a sizeable or powerful Zionist lobby to work; and (2) have other feasible motivations.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

This is just restatement of your original position, which hasn't been convincingly established. What we have established in the interim is that the actions of the Party and Press (1) do not require a sizeable or powerful Zionist lobby to work; and (2) have other feasible motivations.

We've established Zionists criticized Labour and Starmer's faction within Labour acted to appease them. You've admitted this now.

 

[Silvanus]

We've established Zionists criticized Labour and Starmer's faction within Labour acted to appease them. You've admitted this now.

No, we haven't, and my position has not changed. I have not started to believe that they acted to appease a lobby that commands tiny support in the country and a pittance in lobbying funds.

But whatever. This isn't important enough to continue, and we're getting nowhere.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

No, we haven't, and my position has not changed. I have not started to believe that they acted to appease a lobby that commands tiny support in the country and a pittance in lobbying funds.

But whatever. This isn't important enough to continue, and we're getting nowhere.

Oh yes, absolutely unimportant, which is why you tried bringing it up in the first place.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Oh yes, absolutely unimportant, which is why you tried bringing it up in the first place.

It's my fault. I shouldn't have appeared to possibly be charging anyone in the UK with acting for a reason other than ignorance, idiocy, cynicism, or cowardice. Mea Culpa.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

It's my fault. I shouldn't have appeared to possibly be charging anyone in the UK with acting for a reason other than ignorance, idiocy, cynicism, or cowardice. Mea Culpa.

Classic blunder.

 

[Silvanus]

Oh yes, absolutely unimportant, which is why you tried bringing it up in the first place.

Something can be worth mentioning but not worth fighting over for yet 10 more pages. Of course, you also said that the reason 'didn't matter', and then argued lengthily about the reason.

It's my fault. I shouldn't have appeared to possibly be charging anyone in the UK with acting for a reason other than ignorance, idiocy, cynicism, or cowardice. Mea Culpa.

Farbeit from me to question your americentrism by suggesting other countries might have different media landscapes.