Court Declares Oslo "Game Addict" Killer Breivik Sane

[Ukomba]

3 months per murder. Which means the 242 he injured are freebees. There are some crimes that deserve the death penalty.

You really believe dying is worse then life in prison? I'm fairly sure he'd prefered death if giving the choice. Justice isn't about vengeance.

Yes! Especially when it's not life in prison. It's 21 years with the chance for more. Honestly, that's such a stupid argument. If he would have rather died, he could have done that, he could have suicided after the shooting. If you really think life in prison is worse than the death penalty, why do those on death row fight so hard? It takes forever for a death penalty to be carried out because of the endless appeals. Strange that all those people experiencing life in prison seem to want to continue it rather than die.

I'm not talking vengeance, I have nothing to avenge in this case since his crime didn't hurt me in any way. This is just an evil man who deserves to die.

 

[Jack Rascal]

I kind of wished he would have been declared insane, as that would've made the sentence much harsher for him, but from all I have read he did not seem insane (medically speaking) at all. But it does look like he'll be spending the rest of his life in confinement. I doubt he can be released to linger with other captives too often.

 

[Ukomba]

He kills 77 people and only gets 21 years in prison!?!?!? Norway is messed up.

They have a murder rate seven times less than the states.

It's so low, in fact, that this single man is enough to quadruple their murder rate for 2011.

I hate to criticize a system that actually seems to work. Maybe they're not the ones that are messed up.

They also have a population 1/100th that of the United states. They have a vastly more homogenous population. They're surrounded by stable, successful, western countries. Not really comparable situations.

You might as well say Texas has a superior legal system to Washington DC because it has 1/5th the murder rate. Or New Hampshire vs New Mexico where New Hampshire has 1/11th the murder rate.

Since New Hampshire has a murder rate about the same as Norway I guess that means it's got just as good a justice system. Right?

Actually, you know what country seems to have an amazingly good justice system? China. Iran and Syria also apparently have a better justice system than the United States too.

 

[Morten Skiftesvik]

They also have a population 1/100th that of the United states. They have a vastly more homogenous population. They're surrounded by stable, successful, western countries. Not really comparable situations.

The size of the population doesn't matter, it's a percentage, not an actual specific number.
And more homogeneous? Hardly. One of the thoughts Breivik had as reasoning for his actions was to strike a blow to the multicultural society we have here(oh btw, I'm Norwegian, just to make it clear).

I'll admit that Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Russia and the UK is a bit more stable than Mexico, but the sheer size of the US makes the comparison kinda moot. Comparing individual states, maybe(they're closer in population etc too).

I recall the BBC corespondent saying the difference of how trials are in Norway compared to a lot of other places(hinting at the UK/US without saying it openly), there was no police around Breivik, and with some more details I forget while writing this, it almost seemed like he admired the system.

... I'm ranting here, I can tell.


Long story short, He's going to jail, probably for the rest of his life, in a country where the maximum base penalty is 21 years, and one of the last ones executed as a legal(questionable, but serves as an example) penalty(Quisling, rings a bell?) was involved in the Nazi occupation during WWII. That's 60+ years of no death penalty. And keeping it that way is important as a principle of the legal system, where the idea is to rehabilitate, not punishment.


(wow, I'm in a ranting mood)

 

[lacktheknack]

He won.

I didn't see this coming.

I didn't either.

God. Damn. It.

That's not meant in the sacrilegious way, either... God, please damn it to hell.

And to everyone saying "He did not win", he totally did. He went out exactly how he wanted to.

 

[Morten Skiftesvik]

And to everyone saying "He did not win", he totally did. He went out exactly how he wanted to.

True enough, but the integrity of our legal system is intact.
Breivik doesn't respect the legal system, which he has openly stated, but he has to abide by it's ruling.
From what I've heard he wants to be crowned regent in 10 years or so, in addition to "cleanse" Norway of much of the multicultural.
So if he won or lost his little crusade won't be known for a few years(or more).

 

[Farther than stars]

I was hoping he'd be declared insane, just because I'm loathe to give that man anything he wants.

This isn't about giving him what he wants, this is about carrying out justice - something that can only be done when you let go of your own emotions and look at the facts to carry out a verdict.
But personally I think the outcome of him being declared sane is the best one. This means that he is responsible for his crimes and the sentence he's facing is much harsher.

oh great. why not kill him?? ah yes, right. how could i forget. human right system. why do i always think the middle ages had the best punishment?

Because you didn't have to live then and experience the flip side of the coin, in a time when nepotism was more valuable than your life and when you would not have had the freedom of speech to oppose the state in the way that you just have. If you were atheist in those times, if you were gay in those times, you would have been demonized as badly as the Norwegian Shooter is now and you would have been the one facing the noose.
So what if we don't kill criminals anymore? Big woop. It's a fair price to pay for the fact that the majority of the people live more easily.

Let's not be sensationalists and change a fully functional law because of one guy.

21 Years, pending future evaluation is a great outcome and will in pretty much all certainty ensure the guy stays behind bars for the rest of his life.

He doesn't really deserve the honour of a law being changed just for him, that won't even affect his sentence due to it already being passed.

It's funny how the person called "lunatic" is one of the few on this forum who's actually making any sense.

 

[Tufty94]

He kills 77 people and only gets 21 years in prison!?!?!? Norway is messed up.

Not to mention that getting sentenced to a Norwegian prison is like getting a free holiday.

 

[Morten Skiftesvik]

He kills 77 people and only gets 21 years in prison!?!?!? Norway is messed up.

Not to mention that getting sentenced to a Norwegian prison is like getting a free holiday.

His cell(the one I saw a picture of) has a bed, a desk, and a chair. And a bathroom. And nothing else, besides white paint on the walls.
(and he'll probably be devoid of most human contact, so he'll have to spend 21 years, or more, alone)

That's like a free holiday? You've got some pretty weird standards.

 

[DracoSuave]

He kills 77 people and only gets 21 years in prison!?!?!? Norway is messed up.

They have a murder rate seven times less than the states.

It's so low, in fact, that this single man is enough to quadruple their murder rate for 2011.

I hate to criticize a system that actually seems to work. Maybe they're not the ones that are messed up.

They also have a population 1/100th that of the United states. They have a vastly more homogenous population. They're surrounded by stable, successful, western countries. Not really comparable situations.

You're next to Canada, ffs. Come on.

You might as well say Texas has a superior legal system to Washington DC because it has 1/5th the murder rate. Or New Hampshire vs New Mexico where New Hampshire has 1/11th the murder rate.

Since New Hampshire has a murder rate about the same as Norway I guess that means it's got just as good a justice system. Right?

Actually, you know what country seems to have an amazingly good justice system? China. Iran and Syria also apparently have a better justice system than the United States too.

Dude, US has got the worst murder rate of ALL developed countries. (Except Russia) I'm not saying it's the penal system, but let's face it... the states is simply NOT an authority on the matter from any standpoint.

 

[Ukomba]

They also have a population 1/100th that of the United states. They have a vastly more homogenous population. They're surrounded by stable, successful, western countries. Not really comparable situations.

The size of the population doesn't matter, it's a percentage, not an actual specific number.
And more homogeneous? Hardly. One of the thoughts Breivik had as reasoning for his actions was to strike a blow to the multicultural society we have here(oh btw, I'm Norwegian, just to make it clear).

The size of the population does matter since it effects statistics. It's all about sample size. A small population has a small sample size which means small variations show huge statistical swings. Montserrat has a murder rate of 19.7 with just 1 murder. Monaco gas a murder rate of 0. It doesn't mean Monaco is perfect or Montserrat is terrible, your sample size is just too small. As was said, this one man quadrupled Norways murder rate. That's a population size issue.

Yes, Norway is more homogenous. 86.2% of the total population are Ethnic Norwegians. 63.7% of Americans are Non-Hispanic whites, which is the biggest population size. Even that is being really vague since that 63.7% since that counts people from England the same as a man from the Middle East.

You're right about his fears but that is because the current growth rate in Norway is hugely skewed to immigration. If it keeps up, Norway will have a demographics more like America.

I'll admit that Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Russia and the UK is a bit more stable than Mexico, but the sheer size of the US makes the comparison kinda moot. Comparing individual states, maybe(they're closer in population etc too).

I notice you neatly clip out of your quote the part where I do just that. But, hold on, I'm confused. Didn't you JUST say "The size of the population doesn't matter, it's a percentage, not an actual specific number." Which is it?

I recall the BBC corespondent saying the difference of how trials are in Norway compared to a lot of other places(hinting at the UK/US without saying it openly), there was no police around Breivik, and with some more details I forget while writing this, it almost seemed like he admired the system.

I don't really care what a BBC corespondent thinks of a Norways justice system. I'm sure you can find a lot of people who admire the system. I would like to see what would happen if the same system was implemented in France or Spain or Germany or Even England. Since it's so great I'm sure they'll do just that any day now.

... I'm ranting here, I can tell.


Long story short, He's going to jail, probably for the rest of his life, in a country where the maximum base penalty is 21 years, and one of the last ones executed as a legal(questionable, but serves as an example) penalty(Quisling, rings a bell?) was involved in the Nazi occupation during WWII. That's 60+ years of no death penalty. And keeping it that way is important as a principle of the legal system, where the idea is to rehabilitate, not punishment.


(wow, I'm in a ranting mood)

He's going to a country club.
* A former prison governor, Oeyvind Alnaes, believes "The biggest mistake that our societies make is to believe that you must punish hard to change prisoners."
* Prisons have tennis courts, basketball gyms, flatscreen televisions, swimming pools, and even artwork

And only maybe for life, but since the Norwegian justice system so proudly boasts it's huge emphasis on rehabilitation, I wouldn't be surprised to see him released in 31 or 41 years. I wouldn't even be surprised to find out he's out after 21. *The average prisoner only serves 2/3 of their term before being released*.

 

[brighteye]

oh great. why not kill him?? ah yes, right. how could i forget. human right system. why do i always think the middle ages had the best punishment?

Because you hate witches and like sharia laws ? Cutting off a hand for stealing a loaf of bread, yep, we used to do that.

" Sir Bedevere: What makes you think she's a witch?
Peasant 3: Well, she turned me into a newt!
Sir Bedevere: A newt?
Peasant 3: [meekly after a long pause] ... I got better.
Crowd: [shouts] Burn her anyway! "

 

[Ukomba]

He kills 77 people and only gets 21 years in prison!?!?!? Norway is messed up.

They have a murder rate seven times less than the states.

It's so low, in fact, that this single man is enough to quadruple their murder rate for 2011.

I hate to criticize a system that actually seems to work. Maybe they're not the ones that are messed up.

They also have a population 1/100th that of the United states. They have a vastly more homogenous population. They're surrounded by stable, successful, western countries. Not really comparable situations.

You're next to Canada, ffs. Come on.

Yes, I'm clearly talking about Canada. All that violence along the Canadian border I'm always hearing about. e_e American only borders 1 country right? That 22.7 murder rate in Mexico has no effect on... say New Mexico?

You might as well say Texas has a superior legal system to Washington DC because it has 1/5th the murder rate. Or New Hampshire vs New Mexico where New Hampshire has 1/11th the murder rate.

Since New Hampshire has a murder rate about the same as Norway I guess that means it's got just as good a justice system. Right?

Actually, you know what country seems to have an amazingly good justice system? China. Iran and Syria also apparently have a better justice system than the United States too.

Dude, US has got the worst murder rate of ALL developed countries. (Except Russia) I'm not saying it's the penal system, but let's face it... the states is simply NOT an authority on the matter from any standpoint.

In short you're saying. You're American, so shut up. Delightful. But as I said, you want to use Murder Rates to determine how good a justice system is? Great, lets take up China's Justice system or Iran. Both have lower Murder rates, both countries also execute far more people than America does. Heck, China has lower Murder rates than France, England, or Canada. We should all use the Chinese model then.

 

[theultimateend]

I was hoping he'd be declared insane, just because I'm loathe to give that man anything he wants.

Calling anyone who murders people sane has always bothered me.

Unless it is in self defense there is some level of mental breakdown that is required for the act. We just don't want to admit it, I think, because some of the most worshipped folks in the states have or are expected to have killed people.

One aspect that bothered me, as a layman, was this idea that he was "sane".

That's because the legal and medical/psychiatric concepts and definitions of 'sanity' are different... or I should say the legal concepts and definitions are much narrower, mostly having to do with a person's capacity for reasoning and ability to judge moral/ethical/legal actions.

I suppose I could accept that. Though I think that its more the reasoning of mentally capable people on mentally broken ones.

Basically like when someone reads a book and writes a memoir on why the curtains were blue. We give more meaning to things to make it relate more to us.

Sometimes folks are just lacking in the drivers that keep them from murdering. Just like sometimes folks are born with 1 arm, or exceptionally tall, etc. The brain is just another organ that can be damaged during manufacturing and delivery >_>.

 

[Twilight_guy]

Huh. Living in the US, our justice system is more... severe. This guy would probably get the death penalty. If he was tried it Texas, they might hang him during his trial, (I kid, I kid, but he'd definitely get the death penalty in Texas).

 

[theultimateend]

Yes! Especially when it's not life in prison. It's 21 years with the chance for more. Honestly, that's such a stupid argument. If he would have rather died, he could have done that, he could have suicided after the shooting. If you really think life in prison is worse than the death penalty, why do those on death row fight so hard? It takes forever for a death penalty to be carried out because of the endless appeals. Strange that all those people experiencing life in prison seem to want to continue it rather than die.

I'm not talking vengeance, I have nothing to avenge in this case since his crime didn't hurt me in any way. This is just an evil man who deserves to die.

Uh...

People in Auschwitz and other camps tried to stay alive too...

Are you suggesting that just because people fear death that what they are experiencing instead is better than death? We are biologically driven at our very cores to survive, you must overcome the most powerful motivator that exists within you to welcome death. It is not an easy task.

Edit: And no...I'm not saying prison is as bad as a concentration camp, I'm using an extreme example to make a point.... I just know where this conversation would go.

He'll be in prison for the rest of his life, after 21 years they'll extend it another 21.

The US has much harsher laws and they don't lower crime rates in any way. In nations where you can lose a hand for stealing you'll find one handed pickpockets.

Also note that killing him is ok with me, just as long as everyone understands that its a matter of vengeance or frugality (cheaper than housing him). I just don't like when folks try to push the "noble killing" nonsense.

 

[Morten Skiftesvik]

long quote

Sorry, I'm terrible with multiple quotes. :|

I'll try to respond in a proper order.
I chose to say the size of the population, when dealing with percentages, isn't relevant, since it takes the whole population, not just a sample of one, when deriving the number of severe crimes in a given country(here Norway/US). While yes, since Norway has only 5 million people, it's easier to sway the statistics, but over a long period of time there are certain tendencies that will emerge, which are based on the societies the statistics are taken from.

I'll go as far as to say that the US suffers slightly in this regard because of who the initial founders were, puritans, who wanted to punish crimes/misdeeds/etc.
Norway as a state is younger (arguably(my opinion) Norway as is emerged around and in the aftermath of WWII, but that's up for debate).

For the confusion of percentages vs numbers, sorry. D:
My intent was that I prefer looking at percentages, but in case you still wanted to stick to numbers, individual states would be closer in population, that was all.

I mentioned the BBC corespondent because since he is from a different part of the world, he's prone to see the world differently. An extreme example could be if a Chinese, or Iranian corespondent made a comment about how the justice system here is different from theirs, but ah well. People in different nations have different views on the world, some differences are bigger than others.

And lastly...

Normaly, I'd agree to the country club argument.
The difference in this case is that because of the nature of his deeds, Breivik will probably be isolated to avoid being killed by fellow inmates(which could happen, the other prisoners are sent there for good reasons). So while he could read books or the like, most other options would be limited at best.
On that same train of thought. Because the things he did are as serious as they are, and because of his political agenda, it's extremely unlikely that he'll get out, and if he does... well, then the world has changed(I doubt he has) and it's an entirely new discussion that would be relevant.

 

[FalloutJack]

*Reads between certain lines*

This jackass was trying to make us all look like budding criminals!

 

[Bifford]

In some countries, an insanity diagnosis can actually mean the convict will spend a longer time behind bars than if he was judged sane and put in a regular prison, because his time will not be limited to a maximum set by the judge but at the discretion of the doctors. If the patient is a high-profile case, the doctors will bury him in the system.

Does Norway do things differently?