Creative freedom is dying because of the mainstream blight?

Andy Shandy

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Jun 7, 2010
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Sung-Hwan said:
Andy Shandy said:
Sung-Hwan said:
or how Anitia Sarkeesian desires to twist Mirror's Edge to her agendas now that it is in her creative control.
Going to need a source on that. One that doesn't source that made up nonsense blog post on Destructoid.

As for the rest of it, well I'm with everyone else. There's no decent argument made at all so far.
There are a dozen YouTube videos on this and a petition to actually remove that witch from development of the game. What became of that, I do not know.
Oh, I've seen the videos. Pretty much all that I've seen either list said blog post as their source, or have none at all!

As for the petition, I assume you mean the petition where EA themselves responded by saying that "This petition is based on inaccurate information. EA is not working with Anita Sarkeesian on development of Mirror?s Edge." [http://www.change.org/p/dice-remove-anita-sarkeesian-from-mirror-s-edge-2-game-development/responses/25746]

So yeah, still going to need some better proof about that "witch".
 

IceForce

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Sung-Hwan said:
Why exactly do you consider Destructoid bogus on this matter?
Because it was a blog post. A. Blog. Post. Not a published article. And no other sources can be found that support and echo what was said in the blog post.

Does GamerGate want journalistic integrity or not? It would be nice if y'all could make up your minds.
 

Sung-Hwan

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IceForce said:
Sung-Hwan said:
Why exactly do you consider Destructoid bogus on this matter?
Because it was a blog post. A. Blog. Post. Not a published article. And no other sources can be found that support and echo what was said in the blog post.

Does GamerGate want journalistic integrity or not? It would be nice if y'all could make up your minds.
Haha finding out about this, this is pretty interesting if it isn't bogus on EA's part. It's interesting because it goes to show just how much gamers hate Anitia Sarkeesian among the myriad of reasons and how time has proven.

Still, my other points, including the Bravely Default/Dragon's Crown ones, stand. I'll also toss in GTAV if you people want.
 

Teoes

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Jun 1, 2010
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Are.. are you able to prove that it was a corrupt collaboration that saw Lightning Returns receive lower scores? Are you sure it's not just several unrelated people all independently came to the conclusion they they didn't particularly like something?

I'd love it if there was a conspiracy.

Sung-Hwan said:
Andy Shandy said:
Sung-Hwan said:
or how Anitia Sarkeesian desires to twist Mirror's Edge to her agendas now that it is in her creative control.
Going to need a source on that. One that doesn't source that made up nonsense blog post on Destructoid.

As for the rest of it, well I'm with everyone else. There's no decent argument made at all so far.
There are a dozen YouTube videos on this and a petition to actually remove that witch from development of the game. What became of that, I do not know.
That's not how one cites a source.
 

Lera00

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Sung-Hwan said:
Prince of Ales said:
Sung-Hwan said:
12 is the highest rated FF game ever on GR/MC and it wasn't a fluke as Edge Magazine still considers it one of the greatest games of all time.
You started off by saying it was the media's impossible standards that destroyed the series. You've just defeated your own hypothesis.
Not really, it's interesting to note FF12 is pretty complicated in that it's the highest rated game and generally beloved by those shady journalists even today, yet is vocally one of the most disliked FF games by the fan base.

I find it hard to say where it stands.
Well, remember that the notion of what its the consumers who have the real standards, not a reduced group of journalists. Some people prefer to have a button that makes the protagonist kick the monster ass in their games, instead off going trough the menu screens and selection in mid-combat, the same way there is people who love that kind of thing.

The point its that its isn't the media who truly set the standards, the consumers do, because what its mainstream its that way because there is people that buy those games and support the company .
 

IceForce

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Sung-Hwan said:
I'll also toss in GTAV if you people want.
What about GTAV? I hope you're not going to claim that "feminists censored it!"
Because if you do, you will have played pretty much every card in this thread you can possibly play.
 

Sung-Hwan

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IceForce said:
Sung-Hwan said:
I'll also toss in GTAV if you people want.
What about GTAV? I hope you're not going to claim that "feminists censored it!"
Because if you do, you will have played pretty much every card in this thread you can possibly play.
No the issue is they didn't succeed but like DC, they tried everything in their power. Bravely Default was an example where they succeeded in censorship.
 

Teoes

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Jun 1, 2010
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IceForce said:
Sung-Hwan said:
I'll also toss in GTAV if you people want.
What about GTAV? I hope you're not going to claim that "feminists censored it!"
Because if you do, you will have played pretty much every card in this thread you can possibly play.
Chuck it all at the wall in the hope that some of it sticks.
 

Sung-Hwan

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Somewhat off-topic, but I'm curious why this site's community never agrees with me on my views on mainstream media and everything pertaining to it. I might not fully grasp everything quite yet, but other people I've talked to elsewhere do agree on some parts of what I say, like its oppressive effects on creativity from any artistic medium. And I've had over sixteen years with gaming and several years in other mediums to make decent observations.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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Hubblignush said:
Lil devils x said:
Video game profits declined by $3.8 billion since 2009...
That's just cherrypicking, http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Video_game_industry?file=US_Inflation-Adjusted_Revenues.png as you can see here it's basically on the same level as 2006, and the 2006-2009 period was mostly just a spike. Gaming isn't really on any sort of decline, and 2014 was mostly just the year of the overhyped duds with Watch_Dogs, Destiny, Assassin's Creed: unity and Titanfall, I'd say gaming is doing quite well.

Also, most gaes that feature cosmetics are already somewhat marketed towards women (or atleast nto exluding them), I doubt addint different types of hats to Gears of War would make women flock to them though.

OnT: No, the end isn't nigh, but I did have to laugh about your comment with the Final Fantasy series with "amazingly consistent in quality", uh huh? A huge amount of the fanbase longs back to the days of 6/7 (it's often either one of them) with 10 being very polarised, and I fucking dare you to find someone that doesn't go into ragemode anytime sometimes mentions 10-2. Quality is very subjective indeed (I don't really want to touch any Fnial Fantasy game anytime soon) but when most of the games released the last 15 years are vehemently hated by the fanbase, I wouldn't really use the word "consistent".

Also, why this delusion that feminists are in control of the games industry. Don't you think they'd make games that they wouldn't fucking despise then? Seriously try to find a mainstream game that caters mostly to feminists, or rather, try to find the most popular game that caters to feminists and we'll havea big ole' laugh about it.
Of course the issue with the spike is that investors want it to KEEP spiking. Their profits are supposed to go up instead of down, the cosmetic industries are... Looks over at that gaming ad in glamour again.. it just seems so out of place there. LOL
 

Teoes

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Sung-Hwan said:
I've had over sixteen years with gaming and several years in other mediums to make decent observations.
I've got in the region of 26 years experience in gaming, does that mean I outrank you or that my opinion is more valid?
 

Erttheking

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Uh no, people demonize final fantasy because they think the series sucks now. If you don't agree, that's fine, but don't try and make other people's opinions to be invalid. I know one person whose played most of the series, thinks that 4/6 were the best, and thinks 13 is awful because Lightning is a horrible main character, in fact ALL of the cast is horribly written, the game takes place too much in corridors, the plot is clogged up with too much unnecessary bullshit-

TL;DR, people say Final Fantasy sucks BECAUSE THEY THINK IT SUCKS!

Bravely Default's "butchered localization" I admit to not having finished the game because that Vampire sidequest pissed me the hell off, made me put it down and never picked it up again, but what butchered localization? I looked it up and the only thing that I could find was that they made some of the skimpier outfits slightly less so. SLIGHTLY. And they bumped the ages of the characters up because in the original version they would be underage by western standards, and we kind of have a stigma against scantily clad underage characters. Something I can't really get that made about. And frankly, I didn't even know this until I looked it up, I looked at the skimpy outfits and said "Damn those are really damn skimpy" and "why the fuck is the religious outfit required for the purification of crystals worn by an incredibly chaste character a sexy backless dress? Not only does this not make any sense in terms of design and Agnes' character, but it makes it really hard for me to take the game seriously in these sections. Hot tip for devs, sacred robes and sexy backless dress don't really mix) So if that's the feminist and SJWs (God I HATE that term) taking over the industry, I think much fuss has been raised about nothing. Then again I always thought that, but now I have another piece of evidence for a pile

ATLUS DIDN'T MAKE DRAGON'S CROWN! They just published it! Vanilaware developed it! If you want to talk about developers standing up for their "artistic vision" can you at least get who did what down? And why is it that you say that fans not being able to get enough volume to be heard is a GOOD thing? Artistic Freedom is good, yes, but it's not a shield from criticism. I liked SMT IV but I have some problems with it, a lot of fans did. A lot of the designs were absolutely bone headed. I mean what the hell did they do to the archangels? Why does Lucifer look like he's Lord Voldemort going to disco to take his mind off of the fact that he has cancer? Why does Medusa look so cartoony? Most of the new designs are just stupid, with a few exceptions here and there (The new Minotaur design is actually pretty awesome) And the combat, why the hell is every single character made out of glass? Why isn't there a defense stat? Why is it possible to miss the Neutral ending because you were TOO NEUTRAL!? Why is the overworld map much a pain in the ass to navigate? Why is the weapon store owner such an insufferable prick that I have to listen to over and over again? Why are the Archangel battles DLC only? See, I like Atlus games, but they are FAR from perfect, and Atlus needs to listen to its fans on things they don't like. See the fact that they keep fucking Europe over. A LOT of people had problems with the latest SMT game, and if you're right and niche fans can't make themselves heard enough to make a solid change, I'm concerned for the future of the series.
 

Sung-Hwan

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Teoes said:
Sung-Hwan said:
I've had over sixteen years with gaming and several years in other mediums to make decent observations.
I've got in the region of 26 years experience in gaming, does that mean I outrank you or that my opinion is more valid?
It's not necessarily the amount of time that matters, but the observations made along the way. I've personally always had the thought of how gaming seems so different and soulless in recent years compared to the early 2000s to late 1990s. Trying to express it through writing nowadays, like now; specifically, the problems I blame on my archenemy that is the intangible force known as mainstream influence.
 

Sung-Hwan

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erttheking said:
Uh no, people demonize final fantasy because they think the series sucks now. If you don't agree, that's fine, but don't try and make other people's opinions to be invalid. I know one person whose played most of the series, thinks that 4/6 were the best, and thinks 13 is awful because Lightning is a horrible main character, in fact ALL of the cast is horribly written, the game takes place too much in corridors, the plot is clogged up with too much unnecessary bullshit-

TL;DR, people say Final Fantasy sucks BECAUSE THEY THINK IT SUCKS!

Bravely Default's "butchered localization" I admit to not having finished the game because that Vampire sidequest pissed me the hell off, made me put it down and never picked it up again, but what butchered localization? I looked it up and the only thing that I could find was that they made some of the skimpier outfits slightly less so. SLIGHTLY. And they bumped the ages of the characters up because in the original version they would be underage by western standards, and we kind of have a stigma against scantily clad underage characters. Something I can't really get that made about. And frankly, I didn't even know this until I looked it up, I looked at the skimpy outfits and said "Damn those are really damn skimpy" and "why the fuck is the religious outfit required for the purification of crystals worn by an incredibly chaste character a sexy backless dress? Not only does this not make any sense in terms of design and Agnes' character, but it makes it really hard for me to take the game seriously in these sections. Hot tip for devs, sacred robes and sexy backless dress don't really mix) So if that's the feminist and SJWs (God I HATE that term) taking over the industry, I think much fuss has been raised about nothing. Then again I always thought that, but now I have another piece of evidence for a pile

ATLUS DIDN'T MAKE DRAGON'S CROWN! They just published it! Vanilaware developed it! If you want to talk about developers standing up for their "artistic vision" can you at least get who did what down? And why is it that you say that fans not being able to get enough volume to be heard is a GOOD thing? Artistic Freedom is good, yes, but it's not a shield from criticism. I liked SMT IV but I have some problems with it, a lot of fans did. A lot of the designs were absolutely bone headed. I mean what the hell did they do to the archangels? Why does Lucifer look like he's Lord Voldemort going to disco to take his mind off of the fact that he has cancer? Why does Medusa look so cartoony? Most of the new designs are just stupid, with a few exceptions here and there (The new Minotaur design is actually pretty awesome) And the combat, why the hell is every single character made out of glass? Why isn't there a defense stat? Why is it possible to miss the Neutral ending because you were TOO NEUTRAL!? Why is the overworld map much a pain in the ass to navigate? Why is the weapon store owner such an insufferable prick that I have to listen to over and over again? Why are the Archangel battles DLC only? See, I like Atlus games, but they are FAR from perfect, and Atlus needs to listen to its fans on things they don't like. See the fact that they keep fucking Europe over. A LOT of people had problems with the latest SMT game, and if you're right and niche fans can't make themselves heard enough to make a solid change, I'm concerned for the future of the series.
It should be noted most of these "people" are the vocal FF7 fanboys that speak for FF's mainstream status. The series is too diverse across fourteen games and it's impossible to actually generalize; there are even fans of FF13 in sizable numbers across the West and JP.

The very fact that Square Enix censored Bravely Default out of sheer fear for feminist backlash shows how much influence they have; it worries me for other companies following in the same direction. Censorship is the greatest sin against art in my opinion.

They didn't, but they published it. Had the feminists had enough power to threaten Atlus in a very bad way, they'd request Vanillaware make some changes, but they didn't. It proves why ATLUS games are consistently so polished in quality, because they don't listen to these shitty "journalists" or pay much mind to their more whiny fans. Sort of why for all the screaming SMT and Persona fans make with demands, ATLUS just does their own thing.
 

Fappy

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erttheking said:
Uh no, people demonize final fantasy because they think the series sucks now. If you don't agree, that's fine, but don't try and make other people's opinions to be invalid. I know one person whose played most of the series, thinks that 4/6 were the best, and thinks 13 is awful because Lightning is a horrible main character, in fact ALL of the cast is horribly written, the game takes place too much in corridors, the plot is clogged up with too much unnecessary bullshit-

TL;DR, people say Final Fantasy sucks BECAUSE THEY THINK IT SUCKS!

Bravely Default's "butchered localization" I admit to not having finished the game because that Vampire sidequest pissed me the hell off, made me put it down and never picked it up again, but what butchered localization? I looked it up and the only thing that I could find was that they made some of the skimpier outfits slightly less so. SLIGHTLY. And they bumped the ages of the characters up because in the original version they would be underage by western standards, and we kind of have a stigma against scantily clad underage characters. Something I can't really get that made about. And frankly, I didn't even know this until I looked it up, I looked at the skimpy outfits and said "Damn those are really damn skimpy" and "why the fuck is the religious outfit required for the purification of crystals worn by an incredibly chaste character a sexy backless dress? Not only does this not make any sense in terms of design and Agnes' character, but it makes it really hard for me to take the game seriously in these sections. Hot tip for devs, sacred robes and sexy backless dress don't really mix) So if that's the feminist and SJWs (God I HATE that term) taking over the industry, I think much fuss has been raised about nothing. Then again I always thought that, but now I have another piece of evidence for a pile

ATLUS DIDN'T MAKE DRAGON'S CROWN! They just published it! Vanilaware developed it! If you want to talk about developers standing up for their "artistic vision" can you at least get who did what down? And why is it that you say that fans not being able to get enough volume to be heard is a GOOD thing? Artistic Freedom is good, yes, but it's not a shield from criticism. I liked SMT IV but I have some problems with it, a lot of fans did. A lot of the designs were absolutely bone headed. I mean what the hell did they do to the archangels? Why does Lucifer look like he's Lord Voldemort going to disco to take his mind off of the fact that he has cancer? Why does Medusa look so cartoony? Most of the new designs are just stupid, with a few exceptions here and there (The new Minotaur design is actually pretty awesome) And the combat, why the hell is every single character made out of glass? Why isn't there a defense stat? Why is it possible to miss the Neutral ending because you were TOO NEUTRAL!? Why is the overworld map much a pain in the ass to navigate? Why is the weapon store owner such an insufferable prick that I have to listen to over and over again? Why are the Archangel battles DLC only? See, I like Atlus games, but they are FAR from perfect, and Atlus needs to listen to its fans on things they don't like. See the fact that they keep fucking Europe over. A LOT of people had problems with the latest SMT game, and if you're right and niche fans can't make themselves heard enough to make a solid change, I'm concerned for the future of the series.
The glass-canon aspect of SMT IV really only bothered me at the beginning of my first playthrough. When I got used to the fast pace of the fights it got a lot more fun. All the other criticisms are fair though :p

Still my second favorite 3DS game after FE: Awakening.
 

Erttheking

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Sung-Hwan said:
Oh really? REALLY? People who criticize the overall quality of a game series are just fanboys? It's funny how you talk about how you can't generalize the quality of 13 games, but you seem to have no problem generalizing hundreds of thousands of people. And there are people who like FF 13? Yeah, and there are also people that don't, a LOT of people that don't. Your point? Someone saying "I don't like this game" is not canceled out when someone else says "Well I do." You enjoy the game? Good for you. Doesn't stop someone else from having problems with it.

Feminism? I'm pretty sure most people who play video games would be uncomfortable with scantily clad underage girls. I still get creeped out by Nowi in Fire Emblem. There's this thing called a cultural barrier, and you need to change your product for when it crosses a cultural barrier. It's writing for an inter-national audience 101.

Whiny is a word I hate with a passion. Because it's basically a word described to negate criticism. "Oh, you don't like that? You're just whining." Also, Vanillaware is run by grown ups. If they're not dedicated enough to their cause that they can't take some criticism and stand by their artistic vision, I question how invested in it they truly were.

Also you've yet to address all the problems I have with Atlus games that your future of Atlus never listening to me would cause to go unaddressed.
 

Sung-Hwan

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CutesySiren said:
For every person who wants to make every FF-related thread into whining about FFXIII, there's several dozen people who actually played and liked the game.

But evidently they don't exist because they don't whine about the game on the internet.

Sometimes there's a simple answer to the idea that games aren't the way you want them to be because they're "pandering" (or whatever you'd want to say) to a specific group.

Specifically: Maybe they aren't.
Wasn't FF13 directly a product of Square Enix thinking casual gamers wanted less complexity in their game due to mainstream fan backlash for FF12's massive and intricate design? That's what I mean by creative freedom being chained down.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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Sung-Hwan said:
Teoes said:
Sung-Hwan said:
I've had over sixteen years with gaming and several years in other mediums to make decent observations.
I've got in the region of 26 years experience in gaming, does that mean I outrank you or that my opinion is more valid?
It's not necessarily the amount of time that matters, but the observations made along the way. I've personally always had the thought of how gaming seems so different and soulless in recent years compared to the early 2000s to late 1990s. Trying to express it through writing nowadays, like now; specifically, the problems I blame on my archenemy that is the intangible force known as mainstream influence.
You know, this just comes across like ol' fogies complainin' about them youngins ruining everything! LOL

Everyone makes observations, and may draw different conclusions than you do. I am still trying to figure out what you think is mainstream influence and which games is it specifically harming? I played games in the 90's too.. some were good and some sucked. Today, some games are good and some suck... Yea.

Most games I play people never heard of. I prefer full loot pvp no safe zones personally, but most don't like them.