So you have an issue with vile people that complain a lot and cannot stand other opinions? I want you to tell me what exactly you think you are and what you're doing.Sung-Hwan said:
Creative freedom is dying because of the mainstream blight?
- Thread starter Sung-Hwan
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But the most important fact is for the problems these small fanbases may have, they don't dictate changes from their creator; hence Atlus doing what they like and making games like Catherine and even SMT for that matter, something that no Americans at large will generally buy.erttheking said:
Square Enix though, is listening too much to what their fans complain about and try to keep spinning their games to what their fans like; thus going back to the point of what I said with creative freedom being shackled.
You know criticism is always criticism, it doesn't automatically become dictate just because you disagree with it. Something no American will buy? And people who create entertainment NEED feedback, otherwise they'd just lock themselves in an echo chamber and never improve. Catherine? Uh, I hate to tell you but plenty of Americans DID by the game. Nearly TWICE as many as Japanese gamers for the matter.Sung-Hwan said:
http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=catherine
.45 million in North America. .23 million in Japan. Really, you keep making these massive claims but a few minutes on google shows me just how little evidence is backing up your arguments.
Square Enix is listening to their fans? Funny because I've talked to quite a few of their fans and the general opinion that I'm getting is that Square Enix is shoving its fingers in its ears, going "LALALALALALLALA" and stubbornly marching forward. Also I've yet to hear a convincing argument why listening to your fans is a bad thing. As a writer, I would like to dispel the myth that people who create are infallible, because someones we need an extra perspective to realize what we thought was a good idea was a massive fuck up.
Also you haven't answered my question yet. Are "bad" fans people who mindlessly follow mainstream media or who never stop complaining?
Nah criticism is what you call well thought out feedback with a healthy amount of context; something creators would do well do listen to. The "criticism" Square Enix is catering to is this, and don't bullshit when you say you don't see this when you visit Youtube.erttheking said:
"OMG FINAL FANTASY DEAD I WANT FF7 REMAKE FUCKING GONNA KILL A ***** LOL THIS GAME FUCKING SUCKS RIP LEWL"
It's why, while it wasn't their total intention, I applauded their unintentional trolling of those unpleasant fans during the FF7 *chuckle* "remake" announcement.
Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure that isn't actually what the majority of the Final Fantasy fanbase looks like and I'm pretty sure you're stereotyping them into something to easily make fun of. In other words you're using a strawman argument. Also, no one who has been on the internet for more than a month goes to Youtube for constructive criticism.Sung-Hwan said:
Also, you've been making several contradictions. Are bad fans people who mindlessly follow mainstream media and buy whatever, or do they never stop complaining about things they like? Because the two kinda contradict each other.
Setting aside everything else you've said, you do realize that just by saying the part that I put in bold there pretty much robs your point of all legitimacy, right?Sung-Hwan said:
But what does it matter anyway? Your point is one of faith, not one of ratio. You've even said it, quite literally:
You're not even slightly interested in learning through dialogue, you've proven as much here. So what are you even doing here making this thread? Why should we even respond?Sung-Hwan said:
I wish to award you with a tolerance medal for being able to calmly argue with this fellow as long as you did. You're a better man than I am, ert.erttheking said:
"Also, you've been making several contradictions. Are bad fans people who mindlessly follow mainstream media and buy whatever, or do they never stop complaining about things they like? Because the two kinda contradict each other."erttheking said:
Both. What you have to understand is the mainstream crowd, for all their bitching and moaning (see CoD), will buy whatever the companies shovel out because they're such mindless slaves to consumerism. It's only after this stick runs dry do they sort of catch on and stop, though when it dries it really does vary; people still buy Call of Duty rehashes for example, while the stick for the XIII trilogy dried out at Lightning Returns.
Yeah, that doesn't work. How do you know that the same people that constantly complain about the staleness of CoD actually by the game? Check out the recent CoD thread in gaming discussion and you see that plenty don't. Also, you can buy a game, like it, and STILL complain about it, plenty of people do it for just about every game. You're doing the exact same thing that you've done this entire thread, go purely off of sterotypes. And please stop talking about mindless slaves to consumerism, it's plain old hyperbole.Sung-Hwan said:
I think the mainstream develops quite organically, and to think that it would somehow be possible to actively "fight" it is foolish.
I wouldn't exactly claim that games aren't art, but in this respect, especially when so many of the players think they deserve any kind of creative control, I could never, ever agree that they are.
I wouldn't exactly claim that games aren't art, but in this respect, especially when so many of the players think they deserve any kind of creative control, I could never, ever agree that they are.
There is zero chance you're serious and on the level with all this. No way. You'd be more believable if you'd held some of this invective back to slide into the next thread, but you've just thrown too much out there at once here.
Try us! Go on, hypothetical situation, don't aim it at any of the users here, just do your worst. Let's see what's so impressive as to send sheep scuttling back to their master. C'mon, it'll be funny.Sung-Hwan said:
Also, going back to what you said, I don't visit Youtube for constructive criticism; I visit Youtube to get an idea of what the mainstream crowd is like. The people posting comments on popular Youtube videos ARE the mainstream audience. For quicker reference, I just look at old Pewdiepie video comments or just listen to his fans.erttheking said:
I think you missed my point with that but I strongly believe in human elitism/survival of the fittest; which means I think a large chunk of humanity (the mainstream crowd) are no different from wild animals and it is up to the elite to tower over them. I don't consider myself quite up there yet, but am progressively trying to climb up.IceForce said:
So basically you're getting exactly one source to get a view of something that deals with millions upon millions of people. That is hardly what I would call in depth research. You've really only confirmed what I've been thinking for a long time. You're basing your views on stereotypes. Youtube is not a 100% accurate depiction of everything that is mainstream. Even then really you're only focusing on specific aspects of youtube. What about the Markiplier I am Bread video where the highest rated comments were about concerns for the guy's health?Sung-Hwan said:
No he didn't, he was spot on.Sung-Hwan said:
Well you can beleive in whatever you want, but when people start coming up to you and start telling you why what you think is lacking in terms of supporting evidence, you better be ready to listen. And frankly, these "wild animals" that you keep talking about? What exactly about you makes you better than them?
Also you pretty much talked about how you're pretty much ok with a dictatorship.
Pewdiepie is the most subscribed person on Youtube and specifically centered around popular gaming trends among other things. He's a perfect icon for mainstream observations; why else would I have chosen him? As a person, Pewdiepie also symbolizes the power of mainstream control over the masses.erttheking said:
I'm very perceptive, have a lot of experience in regards to various mediums on my shoulders, and generally make a lot of good points/observations that get tons of positive feedback when I decide to post on sites like reddit. I don't consider myself perfect since my experience and knowledge is admittedly still lacking in some areas, but that's why I work to make observations and write; it's all to learn more about things.erttheking said:
Just because he has more subscribers than anyone else you know what that means? That people watch him more than anything else. That's it He does not exercise any sort of control over his subscribers, in fact I imagine most of them see he posted a new video, watch it, then move on with their lives. Unless you feel like going in depth into how exactly he has control over them and affects their behavior.Sung-Hwan said:
You reached a conclusion that was ideal to you, talked about how it was right, and flat out ignored everyone who pointed out the countless holes in your logic. Places like Reddit sound a lot like an echo chamber or the bias effect. You surround yourself with people who agree with you, talk about things you already agree with, then sit back to hear people talk about how right you are. It rarely leads to any intellectual growth. For someone who says he wants to learn more about things, you seem to be flat out ignoring everyone who is pointing out how heavily flawed your arguments are.Sung-Hwan said:
This is why a society ruled by elites is a horrible idea. The elites commonly aren't really that elite, they just say that they're better than everyone else without much of anything to back it up.