Creative freedom is dying because of the mainstream blight?

[Sung-Hwan]

Mainstream in regards to gaming is poisoning because it does not promote creativity; in fact, it demolishes freedom of creativity and art. This is obvious in how Call of Duty never changes its formula but people rush out to buy it,

Just so I'm clear, if a game series reaches a point where it's insanely popular without needing any changes done to it, you expect the devs to change it anyway in the name of "creativity"?

Yes? Are you seriously asking if it's okay to sell the same game under full price tags annually?

 

[Basement Cat]

I think any argument that relies on claims that FFXIII wasn't well-received can be safely ignored here.

For one thing no one on Escapist likes FFXIII and Ben Croshaw along with Jim Sterling tried to boycott the game so I think what you said is kind of invalid.

I do believe that you made a declaration:

Last post I'll make for this site, and thankfully for the sake of my health.

I ask you, honor to honor, why you continue to post in threads upon this site when you have declared that you have had enough and shall not do so again?

Apparently your word is devoid of value. Your lack of sincerity has not gone unnoticed. Neither shall it be forgotten.

OT:

The Triple-A system is a bloated swine that needs an enema to recognize that it's eating habits result in poor health.

The Gaming Industry, as always, shall recover. It's all about money. Just follow the money...whomever is paying it.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

Somewhat off-topic, but I'm curious why this site's community never agrees with me on my views on mainstream media and everything pertaining to it.

Because they are bizarre, unfounded and ridiculously biased?

Also, mainstream exposure is what brought about so many of the games you seem to value. Hate it all you want; companies can't make games unless they make money, and they make money by selling lots of games. If the first Final Fantasy game hadn't sold like hotcakes, Squaresoft would've gone under and you wouldn't have gotten any of the other games you value so highly. Your selfish desire to keep all your favorite things to yourself so the "unwashed masses" can't "ruin" them is only self-defeating.

All I'm saying is in its current state, Final Fantasy is fine for being such a big series, but sooner or later the vile audience Square Enix is trying to cater to will be their demise. Just go niche like SMT for the better. Bravely Default's audience is the kind Final Fantasy needs to reach out to; cutting out all the fat of the fanbase for the true fans.

 

[IceForce]

Mainstream in regards to gaming is poisoning because it does not promote creativity; in fact, it demolishes freedom of creativity and art. This is obvious in how Call of Duty never changes its formula but people rush out to buy it,

Just so I'm clear, if a game series reaches a point where it's insanely popular without needing any changes done to it, you expect the devs to change it anyway in the name of "creativity"?

Yes? Are you seriously asking if it's okay to sell the same game under full price tags annually?

If it sells, what's the problem? That's business. Businesses exist to make money.

If and when people stop buying it, then that will likely be the driving force behind changing the game formula.

 

[IceForce]

All I'm saying is in its current state, Final Fantasy is fine for being such a big series, but sooner or later the vile audience Square Enix is trying to cater to will be their demise. Just go niche like SMT for the better. Bravely Default's audience is the kind Final Fantasy needs to reach out to; cutting out all the fat of the fanbase for the true fans.

Okay, I see where you're going with this. You expect companies to cater to the smallest audience and niche fanbases, and cut out their largest market.

Am I to assume you want these companies to go bankrupt? Or do you just simply not understand how businesses work?

 

[Sung-Hwan]

All I'm saying is in its current state, Final Fantasy is fine for being such a big series, but sooner or later the vile audience Square Enix is trying to cater to will be their demise. Just go niche like SMT for the better. Bravely Default's audience is the kind Final Fantasy needs to reach out to; cutting out all the fat of the fanbase for the true fans.

Okay, I see where you're going with this. You expect companies to cater to the smallest audience and niche fanbases, and cut out their largest market.

Am I to assume you want these companies to go bankrupt? Or do you just simply not understand how businesses work?

Sir, ATLUS is not bankrupt. And ATLUS appeals almost entirely towards niche audiences. Square Enix would be fine if they just went in a similar direction and focused on releasing JRPGs on handhelds.

 

[BytByte]

Somewhat off-topic, but I'm curious why this site's community never agrees with me on my views on mainstream media and everything pertaining to it. I might not fully grasp everything quite yet, but other people I've talked to elsewhere do agree on some parts of what I say, like its oppressive effects on creativity from any artistic medium. And I've had over sixteen years with gaming and several years in other mediums to make decent observations.

Here is what I will tell you. You come in and make wild accusations that you believe to be truly evident to yourself, but not to people on this site. Then, instead of trying to understand where they are coming from, you stuff your ears with corn and keep repeating your same points over and over again. And these points boil down to you being better than "mainstream" audiences because you say you're smarter than them (you think this is true, others do not). Whenever you make an accusation about corrupt journalism or feminism, you don't provide any links or substantial information, you just say things that you think are "facts" but are largely debated by people on this site. You don't think you're better than other people, you know it, which is not only subjective but highly pretentious.

Please please please, listen to this. You are not more special than other people because you know more about games than them. Even when talking about those games you know so much about, people can still have different opinions than you, and just because you know more about them or think you are more "informed" it does not make your opinion inherently better.

You come off as smug and superior and extremely ignorant of anything not coming out of your own mouth. I truly hope that some time down the line you change and come back to this site and look at how dismissive and smug you were, and feel bad that you were like that, but also good that you will no longer be like you are now. Otherwise, you are going to miss everything cool and die angry.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

No I don't consider a large part of the FF fanbase legitimate. There are the ones that will look at the games and SE rationally with fair criticism, and the cancerous plague that always complain and demand a FF7 remake.

In a similar story, there's a more interesting situation with Shin Megami Tensei. The series was a strong niche until Persona 3 and 4 brought it into the spotlight, and the fans brought in by that angle are antagonized so frequently by the core SMT fans they rarely make any noise. That's how I'd like it to be with FF.

or how Anitia Sarkeesian desires to twist Mirror's Edge to her agendas now that it is in her creative control.

Going to need a source on that. One that doesn't source that made up nonsense blog post on Destructoid.

As for the rest of it, well I'm with everyone else. There's no decent argument made at all so far.

There are a dozen YouTube videos on this and a petition to actually remove that witch from development of the game. What became of that, I do not know.

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to go a bit more direct with you but

YOU BLOODY WHAT MATE?!?!?!

Oh, you don't want your precious games to be brought into the public and "brought down" by the normal people with their feminist critique and more varied viewpoints. Geez you sound like Troy from "Reality Bites": hipster to the extreme and utterly insular to say the lest.

No, creativity is still well and alive in games these days. Guilty Gear Xrd, Gat out of Hell, Under Night In Birth, Blazblue, hell even Wildstar was creative to some extent. Games are alive and well

I think your main issue is that you think that people are unfairly criticizing your games when really they bring up good points

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

I always thought the reason creativity is getting the shaft is because games cost too much too make now. As such, major companies are too scared to take risks, and thus try to copy whatever is popular, and so everything ends up playing like everything else. Then someone takes a risk, it's wildly successful, and for a time things are good, but then the cycle starts again. That's the cycle of logic that I follow anyway.

This comment gets all the cookies on the entire sodding internet

Games are an increasingly expensive endeavor and while we may not have a genuine spark from the triple A industry in all but a blue moon with a moon princess descending down to greet us, smaller companies are still doing stuff with less limitations. Hell, Never Alone probably couldn't have come out in the 90's.

Give things time and critique everything that enters your sight.

 

[Kinokohatake]

Somewhat off-topic, but I'm curious why this site's community never agrees with me on my views on mainstream media and everything pertaining to it. I might not fully grasp everything quite yet, but other people I've talked to elsewhere do agree on some parts of what I say, like its oppressive effects on creativity from any artistic medium. And I've had over sixteen years with gaming and several years in other mediums to make decent observations.

I will have to say because you are antagonistic, slightly racist, and say things like

No I don't consider a large part of the FF fanbase legitimate.

You are an elitist. You claim to be the foremost authority on certain matters and tear down others who claim to be on par or more knowledgeable on the matter if they don't agree with you.

And the "censorship" for Bravely Default is adding a little bit of clothes to a character who looks 8 years old.

 

[Michael Tabbut]

Somewhat off-topic, but I'm curious why this site's community never agrees with me on my views on mainstream media and everything pertaining to it. I might not fully grasp everything quite yet, but other people I've talked to elsewhere do agree on some parts of what I say, like its oppressive effects on creativity from any artistic medium. And I've had over sixteen years with gaming and several years in other mediums to make decent observations.

Maybe because your views come off as extremely arrogant. Maybe because you don't back up what your saying with sources or videos that support your arguments. I'm gonna be frank Sung-Hwan, with the attitude you have, you won't make friends here on The Escapist. I will fully admit to finding your opinions distasteful but at the same time I would love to see you grow out of them. This is all I will say on the matter, good day Mr. Hwan.

 

[PainInTheAssInternet]

Let me just make it really clear and obvious: Mainstream in regards to gaming is poisoning because it does not promote creativity; in fact, it demolishes freedom of creativity and art. This is obvious in how Call of Duty never changes its formula but people rush out to buy it, and how some genres like survival horror are dying, so Resident Evil and Dead Space go in a similar direction to COD. Final Fantasy 13 (not counting its sequels) was a direct product of Square Enix trying to cater to what mainstream gamers like: setpieces and linearity. This is in such startling contrast to XII its almost scary, since that game promoted nothing but total freedom and complex design.

Where do you get the idea that the survival horror market is dying? I must admit I never liked Resident Evil or Dead Space, the former suffering at the hands of developers who don't care about survival horror beyond supposed roots and a fancy paint job who wound up making RE6 and the latter being a case of EA's insistence on being bombastic. That's not much of a case of survival horror dying off as it is EA being EA, read; Bioware. What's killing games today are budgets that could actually buy some countries that inevitably need to see a return of investment achievable only through unrealistic sales expectations.

However, I'd say survival horror is in a better place now than it has ever been. There's been a deluge of them in the indie market and a few notable larger releases. In fact, one of the best experiences in this genre was released a few months ago as a Triple-A movie-licensed game. An Alien licensed game. A franchise heralded by feminists for great portrayal of a female protagonist and issues related to that (more on-the-nose with Cameron but still). If that isn't proof that we're in fairly good hands in that respect, I don't know what is.

For one thing no one on Escapist likes FFXIII and Ben Croshaw along with Jim Sterling tried to boycott the game so I think what you said is kind of invalid.

What? I've never heard of this. Do you mean they criticized it? Is criticizing now boycotting?

Somewhat off-topic, but I'm curious why this site's community never agrees with me on my views on mainstream media and everything pertaining to it. I might not fully grasp everything quite yet, but other people I've talked to elsewhere do agree on some parts of what I say, like its oppressive effects on creativity from any artistic medium. And I've had over sixteen years with gaming and several years in other mediums to make decent observations.

People have differing opinions for a start. What you've basically asked in confusion (though more likely a shrouded accusation of us lacking intellect given your position on everything else) is why everyone doesn't agree with you just like some other people you spoke to that one time.

 

[Teoes]

I've had over sixteen years with gaming and several years in other mediums to make decent observations.

I've got in the region of 26 years experience in gaming, does that mean I outrank you or that my opinion is more valid?

It's not necessarily the amount of time that matters, but the observations made along the way.

Well, see, your confessed attitude in the past has been one of dismay towards those who came into your hobby after you did and therefore know less than you, automatically making their opinions not only worthless but contemptible in your eyes.

But for all the observations you've made in 16 years, think of all the extra observations I've made in the decade I've got on you. Where does that leave your opinions, by the standards you apply to others?

 

[Scow2]

It should be noted 9 is far and wide considered the better game than 7, if not the best game in the series; 10 has a strong following; 11 was fairly well received; 12 is the highest rated FF game ever on GR/MC and it wasn't a fluke as Edge Magazine still considers it one of the greatest games of all time.

The FF7 fans are the problem really. The same whiny, obnoxious fans that are never satisfied and brought FF into the mainstream spotlight.

That still doesn't really mean consistent if a big part of the fanbase (however illlegitimate you consider them) doesn't really like a big part of the series, also despite many of the games do havea strong following (which is pretty impossible to deny) a bunch of still pretty despised by the fanbase. This I should say would make the games polarising, not consistent.

Can't really add much more than pedantry though, since I aren't all too familiar with the series, but JRPG:s heavily influenced by anime aren't really for me.

No I don't consider a large part of the FF fanbase legitimate. There are the ones that will look at the games and SE rationally with fair criticism, and the cancerous plague that always complain and demand a FF7 remake.

In a similar story, there's a more interesting situation with Shin Megami Tensei. The series was a strong niche until Persona 3 and 4 brought it into the spotlight, and the fans brought in by that angle are antagonized so frequently by the core SMT fans they rarely make any noise. That's how I'd like it to be with FF.

So... you want the Final Fantasy VI and VII fans to get so vocal and spiteful to the newer fans of games such as IX and XII until you are forced to shut up? Is that what you're saying? Because that's exactly what you're saying. You are just as much the cancerous plague that you accuse others of being.

I've had over sixteen years with gaming and several years in other mediums to make decent observations.

I've got in the region of 26 years experience in gaming, does that mean I outrank you or that my opinion is more valid?

It's not necessarily the amount of time that matters, but the observations made along the way.

Well, see, your confessed attitude in the past has been one of dismay towards those who came into your hobby after you did and therefore know less than you, automatically making their opinions not only worthless but contemptible in your eyes.

But for all the observations you've made in 16 years, think of all the extra observations I've made in the decade I've got on you. Where does that leave your opinions, by the standards you apply to others?

Also contempt and derision to those who came into the hobby before him, and are a decrepit 'cancerous plague"

 

[ryukage_sama]

If you want a better explanation for the financial woes of Square Enix, Jim Sterling has some good breakdowns of the situation. Just look at this video that was posted here on the Escapist: [link]http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/9617-Batman-Is-Everything-Wrong-With-Square-Enix[/link]

And I've had over sixteen years with gaming and several years in other mediums to make decent observations.

Or you could have spent 16 years learning all the wrong lessons, just like Square Enix. Besides you're not just arguing observations, you're arguing conclusions based on your observations.

 

[Super Cyborg]

I never liked the idea that anything mainstream lacks originality. Is it for the most part? Yes, but it doesn't mean it doesn't have some original ideas, or that it is even bad. Mainstream is more just taking what is popular and have that as the selling front. Shooters are popular, so there are a lot of them, but some of them can have their own ideas that haven't been used much. Also with so many games, I wonder how original a game can be considered at this point. Whenever an indie/niche game is talked about, I see so many times people are like "it's like if x met y with a little bit of z". It's almost as if there really isn't anything that could be considered original. Now lack of diverse games, whether gameplay or story, is a whole different thing.

As for the SMT fanbase, I never knew it was like that. Maybe because I don't browse the internet that much, but the fans I've seen seem pretty chill. I assume this is another thing you have to go to the dark corners to find.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Mainstream isn't a thing onto itself. It's a adjective. A game is mainstream. Basically what you're saying is "Games being popular is ruining games" which simply isn't true. Now if what you're trying to say is that a lot of AAA gaming companies have really messed up priorities then I think you'll find a lot common ground on this website. A lot of people here dislike the direction Resident Evil, Dead Space and Call of Duty went. But they don't blame the games for being popular. They blame Activision, Capcom and EA for being greedy bastards. (Microstransactions in a sixty dollar game, REALLY EA!?)

However, you cross a bit of a line with that next comment. See, plenty of AAA companies have screwed up priorities, but that doesn't automatically make all AAA games bad. Really I've played most of them, and they've got plenty of polish and solid gameplay. They can be bland a lot of the times but trust me they're nothing compared to what a bad indie game looks like. Not to mention there are actually some pretty damn good AAA games out there. Wolfenstein the New order, Shadow of Mordor, Alien Isolation, Borderlands 2 (Haven't played the Pre-Sequel) Far Cry 3 & 4 just to name a couple of recent ones.

At this point you go off into pure speculation territory. You say that feminists damage gaming without really going into why. And the Bravely Default example is a pretty bad one considering that I guarantee you feminism could've been outlawed and that still would've been censored, western countries are really uncomfortable with sexualized underage girls. If feminists were really as bad as you make them out to be, there would've been a lot more uproar over all the sexualized demons in the Persona/SMT games (Including one demon whose name escapes me that has tits on her head, knees and shoulder). Also, why is it that everytime a localization is censored it's the fault of feminists? There are plenty of people besides them who think there shouldn't be sex in video games, and really only sex-negative feminists in the feminist field argue for censorship, and they've gotten a bad rap from most people, other feminists included.

As for the guy who says he's on my ignore list...he probably did it for one of the many MANY times I get my temper get the better of me...well...in the million to one chance he sees this, I'm sorry.

Also I'm sorry if, no, for when I did lose my temper with you too Sung

 

[CaitSeith]

I think Bravely Default's butchered localization is a strong indication of how much SJWs and feminists control what goes in and out with this industry now.

Localization existed in Square Enix (Squaresoft back then) games since the SNES era! Shiva in FFIII in SNES (well FFVI) was censored. Heck, instead of Pubs, we had Cafes!

I think pandering the mainstream audience can have negative effects in creative freedom; but I think you got the demographic of mainstream gaming slightly wrong. The publisher may say "appealing to a wider audience", but their games clearly show they tried to cater to the people who bought the game/franchise with the most sales out there.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

So after thinking overnight I came to a simple decision. Despite Final Fantasy being neckdeep tainted with the mainstream plague, I'll continue to play through the mainline games along with SMT games and keep writing articles about my thoughts and experiences with each game; ignoring what puppets like Jim Sterling like to shove down the unwitting populaces throats, I'll just think for myself and continue to find my own conclusions. If at any point, any one of his minions bothers me with the typical bull with no context or etc, I will simply resort to hurling those really terrifying insults I am quite good at until they flee back to their master.

I do thank Escapist for making me realize that even though the pollution of mainstream may be too high, there's no reason to just abandon something if it has value like Final Fantasy.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Gaming is the same as what it was in the past. Only thing that is different is the cost to make a game. No company is going to make a multiple million bet on a risky game. There is a lot of creative freedom, and thats in indie developers. I think MS are releasing a game making software for XB1 at some point (unless its been cancelled) which a lot of gamers can use their imagination to create interesting titles. An also titles on PSN/Live like Meatboy, Shovel Knight, Fez and Limbo show that these companies can create interesting games on a smaller budget.

On top of that, you have the amazing stuff modders are creating on the PC and keeping older games alive with new content or reskinning to create something new. Like the rpgs created with the Oblivion/Skyrim official creator kits (cant remember name of it). For every AAA title there are many more overlooked and creative games that go unnoticed. An instead of complaining, we as gamers should be promoting these games so they dont go under the rader.