Critical Miss: Dragon Age: Destiny

mechanixis

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I was 100% behind David Geider until they rolled this one out. I wasn't aware you could kill Leliana until I heard about this, and I think nullifying that choice is overstepping some implicit boundaries. Just substitute her with a crappy stand-in character if you have to, but don't shatter my causality! At least slap an alternate model on her with a nasty scar or something.
 

thethain

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Basically DA2 seems like a bit of a cop out.

They realized somewhere in DA1, when making a ton of back stories that might play out in different ways. "Shit we are going to have to have 100 contingency plans for a sequel" So they said F that. And went with a brand new person. And apparently along the way decided they didn't want to have to bother remembering all the possible killings.

Now for some official handwavery:
"No no no, there aren't any bugs in our new shiny game. There is a bug in our old busted games, you see you only incapacitate Zevren, Liliana, or any other character who is still alive in DA2, DA1 should not have played the gory kill animation, that is the bug right there...."

Honestly though, when Leliana got her own DLC. I knew they were going to toss out the possibility of her death. Even though it was how you became a Reaver without just buying the book. Believe it or not, developers are people and they have favorites too. So the thought that one of them wanted to make Liliana's character so zealous to die for the ashes, but then not want to have to deal with the possibility that happened makes perfect sense.
 

BiscuitTrouser

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Drakulea said:
Wait, so Leliana shows up even if you killed her in the imported Dragon Age Origins save?

Talk about sloppy work.
I know right? Like once, it battle, some darkspawn totally killed Justice in Awakening with a combination of immolation, cutting, acid, biting, poison and ice and anders just used his REVIVE spell to bring him back. It was really weird, and it only happened a total of 200 times so it made the occurance very out of the ordinary. Sloppy work bioware. Sloppy work.

Then i murdered some ex priestess in front of a very holy icon near some priests with the power to revive and she DIDNT DIE! THE OUTRAGE! Bioware just CANT decide how their universe functions.

Madara XIII said:
She's had worse /sarcasm
She has... she died under the effects of fire, acid, lightning, ice biting, mauling, crushing and being eaten like a bazillion times when i played on the hardest mode. And then wayne revived her.
 

Woodsey

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rsvp42 said:
Woodsey said:
I was referring specifically to Anders, and how there's only one ending.
Ah. Never really did much in Awakenings, myself.
No, the BIG THING that Anders does in DA2 that happens no matter what you may or may not do to help him.
 

Legion

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Oct 2, 2008
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KeyMaster45 said:
You can't call it retcon if there were multiple paths to take. I played through the game and didn't kill Leliana at the ashes part, if you chose to, well that was your choice. I don't see why people are up in arms over it, just frigging deal with it. Just cause you chose to kill her doesn't mean other people chose to as well.

I suppose the flip side to this is they could have just chosen not to include her at all and everyone would have been happy. Of course they could have also chosen to not include Zevran (the elf rogue dude I don't remember his name) which if you remember you had an option to kill him as well.

TL;DR: Tough titty, deal with it. It's not retcon.
It is retcon, because she always turns up even if you did kill her and import her. If they did what they had done in Mass Effect 2 and had her alive if she survived, and replaced by someone else if she didn't then there wouldn't be an issue.

BiscuitTrouser said:
Drakulea said:
Wait, so Leliana shows up even if you killed her in the imported Dragon Age Origins save?

Talk about sloppy work.
I know right? Like once, it battle, some darkspawn totally killed Justice in Awakening with a combination of immolation, cutting, acid, biting, poison and ice and anders just used his REVIVE spell to bring him back. It was really weird, and it only happened a total of 200 times so it made the occurance very out of the ordinary. Sloppy work bioware. Sloppy work.

Then i murdered some ex priestess in front of a very holy icon near some priests with the power to revive and she DIDNT DIE! THE OUTRAGE! Bioware just CANT decide how their universe functions.

Madara XIII said:
She's had worse /sarcasm
She has... she died under the effects of fire, acid, lightning, ice biting, mauling, crushing and being eaten like a bazillion times when i played on the hardest mode. And then wayne revived her.
They don't die, that's why. They get knocked unconscious, as unrealistic as that is, they are never supposed to actually be killed in combat.

rsvp42 said:
Woodsey said:
Hey, I agreed with you mostly. I liked the game, but the seeming lack of consequences is quite shocking. I mean, there are major decisions in DA2 alone that don't affect anything, and then they're introducing the implementation of save files that are retconned anyway.
Wait... what? This is news to me. I finished DA2 a couple nights ago and it seemed like there some pretty significant choices that affected what characters survived, ran off, etc. Hell, I even got crap from Aveline for selling her husband's shield. I dunno, seemed like there were a decent number of big choices.

Also, I had no clue Leliana could be killed in Origins. Then again, I rarely used her after I got Wynne. I needed those extra heals.
Try playing it the other way around from what you did before, and watch how it ends in exactly the same way.

Side with Mages and help Anders = Anders blows up the Chantry, Orsino becomes an abomination and attacks. Meredith fights you, you leave Kirkwall and go on the run.

Side with the Templars and refuse to help Anders = Anders blows up the Chantry, Orsino becomes an abomination and attacks. Meredith fights you, you leave Kirkwall anyway.

The game is pretty good overall, but the "choices" are an absolute joke.
 

rsvp42

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Legion said:
Try playing it the other way around from what you did before, and watch how it ends in exactly the same way.

Side with Mages and help Anders = Anders blows up the Chantry, Orsino becomes an abomination and attacks. Meredith fights you, you leave Kirkwall and go on the run.

Side with the Templars and refuse to help Anders = Anders blows up the Chantry, Orsino becomes an abomination and attacks. Meredith fights you, you leave Kirkwall anyway.

The game is pretty good overall, but the "choices" are an absolute joke.
Well I suspected as much...
once I had to fight Orsino. But you get the option of killing Anders for what he did, right? I didn't because well, heals and I was supporting mages the whole game, but that made Sebastian swear a death oath against me, which seems pretty serious.

Oh and Bethany doesn't have to die, right? Or maybe she dies whether you take her to the deep roads or not? I haven't gotten there on my second playthrough yet. So... you can leave that answer out if you want. Isabela left me and I'm sure that didn't have to happen.

Plenty of other smaller choices throughout as well. Some people you let live show up later, etc. I wouldn't say there's a lot of big choices, but an okay amount and for at least the first go, they cover up stuff well enough that it doesn't scream "this will happen either way!" At least until the end.
 

Legion

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rsvp42 said:
once I had to fight Orsino. But you get the option of killing Anders for what he did, right? I didn't because well, heals and I was supporting mages the whole game, but that made Sebastian swear a death oath against me, which seems pretty serious.

Oh and Bethany doesn't have to die, right? Or maybe she dies whether you take her to the deep roads or not? I haven't gotten there on my second playthrough yet. So... you can leave that answer out if you want. Isabela left me and I'm sure that didn't have to happen.
The main issue is that Bioware seem to pride themselves on the ability to make choices in their games, if they didn't then it wouldn't be so much of an issue. The same reason people disliked being rail-roaded into working for Cerberus in Mass Effect 2, despite paragon Shepards being very much against the organisation.

As for my reply to the spoilers:

once I had to fight Orsino. But you get the option of killing Anders for what he did, right? I didn't because well, heals and I was supporting mages the whole game, but that made Sebastian swear a death oath against me, which seems pretty serious.

Oh and Bethany doesn't have to die, right? Or maybe she dies whether you take her to the deep roads or not? I haven't gotten there on my second playthrough yet. So... you can leave that answer out if you want. Isabela left me and I'm sure that didn't have to happen.

Anders can be killed, yes, but it doesn't change anything within the game itself. Sebastians behaviour is determined by his friendship/rivalry, as is all companions. If you have either then they will support you, even if they disagree with you.

The sibling dies if you take them to the deep roads, always. If you don't something else happens which I won't spoil for you (it's actually quite interesting)

Isabela leaves if you tell her to give the book to the Qunari rather than letting her have it. She leaves if you let her have it, but will return near the end. This may also be affected by friendship/rivalry but I am unsure.

True enough, there are lot's of little choices, but the problem is that none of them really mean anything. The problem with the three I mentioned, is that it effectively makes any choice you made completely pointless, it really makes no difference which side you choose as the outcome is the same.

Like I said, still a very good game, it was just rushed out, it would have benefited greatly from another 6-12 months work, and it wouldn't have received the angry reception if they had chosen to delay it.
 

hitheremynameisbob

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ecoho said:
ok there are a few things that need to be addressd.
1. in any game of that many choices there is always a "cannon" story which the developers agree on.
2.this is not even a real retcon. the decapitation animation is random for all enimies so she could have been rezed or saved by the ashes.
3.in the case of zevren hes and elf they do funky things............

in the long run they told you what they take as cannon (theyve said that the shepard thats cannon is male already btw) and people got butthurt cause in a small amount of play throughs they killed her.(a little more people killed zevren but like i said elves are weird like that)
1. That'd be true if they weren't also acting like your choices mattered. They put in a save import feature and made a big ****ing deal about how choices from the first game impact events in this one. People are not disappointed that there's a set cannon in and of itself, but that there is and they acted like there wasn't going to be one (and implemented a save game import system that totally ignores some pretty significant details, leaving your game "half imported," so to speak). People are rightly annoyed that they were pretending their game does something to a degree that it really doesn't. Sure, it recognizes SOME choices, but what's the point when it also ignores some pretty huge ones? It ends up coming off like they're trying to trick the player, which honestly I think they were.

2. Being "rezed" in DA only works (with the revive spell, anyway) if you're "unconscious," not dead. If your whole party falls in battle, you DIE, because there's nobody there to revive you and you bleed out or the enemies finish the job. Given that the only people there beside your party are the cultists, I don't think anyone is bringing Leliana back. Saying "the Ashes did it" could MAYBE work, but this is the sort of thing that they'd have had her mention if they'd thought of it. The evidence suggests, instead, that they just didn't care that some players killed her, and decided to disregard that choice because they didn't have time to write around it. (Really, putting a generic NPC in her place would have solved the issue, no big deal).

3. Elves don't do "funky things" unless they explicitly make mention of it happening. Nobody in the series has ever said "sometimes elves just magically come back to life," hence elves can't just magically come back to life. The whole issue here is that they haven't bothered to even TRY to explain these things, which means that they're just, as you noted, sticking to one established cannon where neither character died. In which case, the problem isn't that they're doing that, but that they did it and pretended they weren't.
 

winter2

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I never knew you could kill Leliana off in DAO. I'm not sure why you would want to.. she is a lil' hottie!

And apparently I must be getting my time line confused here. For some reason I thought DA2 was more of a prequel to DAO. But apparently I am very much mistaken there. I guess I will find out whenever I get around to play that thing.
 

Compatriot Block

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Wynne died before you even met her in DA:O. She was dead, dead, DEAD. She got brought back by a spirit from the Fade.
Why not Leliana too?

Of course, acknowledging that plot point might put a damper on some of the rage focused on Leliana, eh?
 

Cory Rydell

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The reason it probably shouldn't have been overlooked in this one and changed is that the character would be wildly different personality wise (I imagine) if she had been brought back from the dead versus just living to that point in the story.

Or at least that is how I saw it. That and obviously dropping a plot point they included before.
 

Therumancer

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Sir John the Net Knight said:
Edit: Scratch that joke, it'll scare children...

[sub][sub][sub][sub]Actually, I just dun wanna get banned for NSFW jokes.[/sub][/sub][/sub][/sub]

Instead, I'll ask if this now makes Suchong a miniature giant space hamster fancy rat.
Wabblefish said:
Nice comic I guess but it seems a little harsh lol, it was only one retcon and this is just more ammuninition for the old school Rpg mega fanboys to use.
Well, actually it's not only one retcon. This is just one of the most popular ones, because it's well known. See, a lot of people wound up killing Leliana on "evil" playthroughs, and it was also something that typically occured in the process of unlocking the Reaver specialization since she was a mainstay of a lot of people's parties. Pretty much any character you could have killed in the first game has been retconned back to life. Zevran, Justice, and others.

On top of this Anders was clearly not gay in "Awakenings" despite the jokes about what ear his earring was in.

In short, it's a matter of there being a complete lack of consistincy, and honestly I think it was done out of sloppiness more than anything personally.

As far as David Gaider goes, perhaps I'm not getting a joke, but honestly he's been getting pretty solidly curb stomped. I suppose a lot of people with the right (or should I say left) politics cheered for his pro-gay declarations, but it's important to note that the gays themselves have been upset by the portrayals in the game. On top of this, when I heard about these occurances here on The Esacapist I went to the forums to check out the threads and comment only to find them locked.

To put it bluntly, despite him trying to turn it into a political statement and get the left wing user base behind him, I think in the end the way the homosexuality was done in "Dragon Age II" was like so much in the game, simply a matter of sloppy game design. It was easier to make ever character bi-sexual than to work out which characters went which way (so to speak). Just as it was easier to throw waves of spawning opponents at the player than to carefully balance out each encounter tactically so you could actually do things like use choke points and tanking and the like, and just as it was easier to keep re-using the same maps again and again, AND just as it was easier to resurrect Dragon Age: Origins characters that should be dead rather than creating a new character or sequence of events to replace their involvement if they weren't around.

So basically, the guy showed up and tossed off a response or two, and there were some comments after that, but then we had the threads locked. He's not successfully "fighting the universe", it's pretty much like it is every time a dev responds. If you look past any political kudos you might want to give him, it's actually pretty sad overall, esecially seeing as I don't even think he really deserves them since I don't think there was any carefully conceived statement intended in the game to be honest.

I'll also point something else out, even if you forgive them not being able to actually fulfill the ambitions of the series by going so far as to create alternative characters to replace the fallen, they didn't even go so far as to alter lines of dialogue to reflect what surviving characters would have been liable to think. To use Leliana as an example, her specific desicians as "Agent Nightengale" and attitudes make no sense if she was in a romance with a Gray Warden who was a mage.

Honestly, it was a quick, sloppy cash in, and I think they wanted to toss out as many referances to the first game as possible and assumed fanboys would just mindlessly embrace it. The "everyone is bi-sexual" thing is not only an easy way out, but also gives Bioware something politically correct to trot out... Bioware made some comments a whiole back that there would be no gay or bi-sexual characters/romances in the upcoming "Old Republic". I think that was here on The Escapist, and was never changed. That irritated some people, and honestly I think they are willing to take whatever PC-cred they can get at the moment, and will have this to point to when inevitably someone makes complaints about "Old Republic Online".
 

ecoho

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hitheremynameisbob said:
ecoho said:
ok there are a few things that need to be addressd.
1. in any game of that many choices there is always a "cannon" story which the developers agree on.
2.this is not even a real retcon. the decapitation animation is random for all enimies so she could have been rezed or saved by the ashes.
3.in the case of zevren hes and elf they do funky things............

in the long run they told you what they take as cannon (theyve said that the shepard thats cannon is male already btw) and people got butthurt cause in a small amount of play throughs they killed her.(a little more people killed zevren but like i said elves are weird like that)
1. That'd be true if they weren't also acting like your choices mattered. They put in a save import feature and made a big ****ing deal about how choices from the first game impact events in this one. People are not disappointed that there's a set cannon in and of itself, but that there is and they acted like there wasn't going to be one (and implemented a save game import system that totally ignores some pretty significant details, leaving your game "half imported," so to speak). People are rightly annoyed that they were pretending their game does something to a degree that it really doesn't. Sure, it recognizes SOME choices, but what's the point when it also ignores some pretty huge ones? It ends up coming off like they're trying to trick the player, which honestly I think they were.

2. Being "rezed" in DA only works (with the revive spell, anyway) if you're "unconscious," not dead. If your whole party falls in battle, you DIE, because there's nobody there to revive you and you bleed out or the enemies finish the job. Given that the only people there beside your party are the cultists, I don't think anyone is bringing Leliana back. Saying "the Ashes did it" could MAYBE work, but this is the sort of thing that they'd have had her mention if they'd thought of it. The evidence suggests, instead, that they just didn't care that some players killed her, and decided to disregard that choice because they didn't have time to write around it. (Really, putting a generic NPC in her place would have solved the issue, no big deal).

3. Elves don't do "funky things" unless they explicitly make mention of it happening. Nobody in the series has ever said "sometimes elves just magically come back to life," hence elves can't just magically come back to life. The whole issue here is that they haven't bothered to even TRY to explain these things, which means that they're just, as you noted, sticking to one established cannon where neither character died. In which case, the problem isn't that they're doing that, but that they did it and pretended they weren't.
your answer to number 2 is a bit far fetched seeing how if thats the case whos to say she wasnt just knocked out?(as the decapitation is random it doesnt count as a real death)

they went with what they considered cannon and seeing as you dont play the warden in the second game there realy no need for the explanation right then.(theyll probily have some kind statment going out that sounds less like a fuck you that explains why shes alive)

in the case of zevren......ok you got me there he should of had a wrex thing but like i said elves are weird they have many gods who knowsmaybe the dred wolf saved him:)

could they of handled this better? hell yeah but it is their right to deside whats cannon.

BTW: in the case of choices im betting that they are going the mass effect route there were they hint at some in 2 but you dont see anything major till 3. Im ok with that but then i like long running fantisy books:)
 

Wolfbane_Daoine

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Grey Carter said:
The illustrious Tycho over at Penny Arcade described Gaider as a "King" [http://www.penny-arcade.com/2011/4/4/] and honestly, that sounds right. The man is an inspiration. Next time someone posts a not-quite-as-clever little comment about Erin having sideburns I may just abandon my angry stoicism and instead just pick them up and throw them out a window.
Wait, so Erin doesn't have sideburns?? How is that possible, those are totally sideburns dood! Don't try that retcon that stuff on us! We deserve an explanation! :p
 

The Wooster

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Wolfbane_Daoine said:
Grey Carter said:
The illustrious Tycho over at Penny Arcade described Gaider as a "King" [http://www.penny-arcade.com/2011/4/4/] and honestly, that sounds right. The man is an inspiration. Next time someone posts a not-quite-as-clever little comment about Erin having sideburns I may just abandon my angry stoicism and instead just pick them up and throw them out a window.
Wait, so Erin doesn't have sideburns?? How is that possible, those are totally sideburns dood! Don't try that retcon that stuff on us! We deserve an explanation! :p
I can and will throw you out of a window.
 

Gunner 51

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Really, I played through DA:O in a completely honorable fashion (Much to Morrigan's displeasure) and there wasn't a single retcon in the sequel for me.

Zevran didn't betray me, because I was a massive dick-tease to him.
Leliana and Wynne remained loyal because I used Andraste's ashes to cure Connor of Redcliff. (Much to Teeeeeeagan's relief.)
Morrigan has remained loyal, namely because I boinked her and then me and her kind of took a fancy to each other. (Though me and her had one last fling before smacking the ever-loving crap out of the Archdemon.)