Critical Miss: Riotous Anger

[riles481]

Disclaimer: Wall of text and some controversial stuff, I'd appreciate if those who did respond actually took the time to read and understand, thank you.

First things first, I don't entirely disagree with the subject of this Critical Miss, but I do disagree. I've seen a lot of posts on either side in this thread and I would like to respond to them all, but I'll just stick to the main subject.

So anyway, we're supposed to be blaming the rioters themselves right? Especially those who committed murder/manslaughter during the conflict or those who simply took advantage of the chaos and looted for personal greed. This I can and also cannot agree with. I absolutely think those who killed or looted were completely at fault and there is no justification for these actions, but its very dangerous to take the actions of the more general rioters out of context and simply call them "animals" (the comic did not reference this, but several subsequent posts did).

Calling people animals or dehumanizing them in any way is an extremely slippery slope that can lead to very dangerous places, especially if the society is willing to let dehumanizing comments become an acceptable way of referring to certain groups of people such as the rioters.

This argument can lead back to such basic concepts as natural prejudice and even eugenics. What I mean by this is that an argument of a Eugenicist (when there was still such a thing) may be something like "the natural state of a black man is to be a slave, whereas the natural state of a white man is to be a master, this is not only current practice, but biological fact." This argument suggests that Africans were slaves not because they were the victims of conquest and colonialism, but because it was natural for them to be so. They were less human than humans. So leading back to my argument about dehumanization, it is not only simplistic, but also dangerous to dehumanize the rioters as a whole by doing so we assume that those who riot are naturally uncivilized, prone to violence, and need to be ruled with an iron fist (ie., a master-slave relationship). Sound familiar?

Naturally those who did the worst crimes should (and hopefully will) be punished, but as for those who were explosively expressing their rage and fury in response to years of exploitation, prejudice, and hopelessness? They need to be understood on a different level. Logic did not cause these riots and they cannot be viewed through a lens of rational thought, to understand the why we need to be willing to see things on their level or else it can not be truly said that what caused the build up of so many suppressed emotions has been addressed or solved at all.

Concluding my main point, there is no justification for a riot, but there are reasons. These reasons need to be addressed or this will happen again. Not today, not tomorrow, but the cycle will repeat.

Don't believe me?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

Replace L.A. with London, Rodney King's beating and trail with Mark Duggan's shooting, and the entire thing seems eerily similar.

Also:
George H.W. Bush
Conversely, President Bush argued that the unrest was "purely criminal". Though he acknowledged that the King verdicts were plainly unjust, he maintained that "we simply cannot condone violence as a way of changing the system ... Mob brutality, the total loss of respect for human life was sickeningly sad ... What we saw last night and the night before in Los Angeles is not about civil rights. It's not about the great cause of equality that all Americans must uphold. It's not a message of protest. It's been the brutality of a mob, pure and simple."[59]

vs.

David Cameron
http://in.reuters.com/video/2011/08/11/cameron-recalls-uk-parliament-over-riots?videoId=218214443&videoChannel=117762

19 years and the responses to the riots are virtually identical, I mean you could practically play political Mad Libs with either of these speeches and you'd get the speech that'd be given for NEXT time this happens. The cycle needs to end, and it starts with understanding, not demonizing.

 

[JoJo]

When you break it all down, the only reason this crap is actually happening is one very simple answer.

People suck.

No that's wrong, just a few people suck and ruin it for everyone else. Don't tar us all with the same brush because of the actions of a few idiots, there are about 9 million people in London and just a few thousand rioters in total.

No. People suck. They just suck in different ways. Only some of them riot violently. Others are greedy, hateful, envious or downright ignorant in various other ways. Most are simply apathetic and myopic until things go wrong, and then they swing to the opposite side of the spectrum and become reactionary.

Really? So the person who dedicates much of their life to running a charity for sick children "sucks"? Or the person who takes someone-elses place to die in a concentration camp "sucks"? The person who protests against oppressive regimes at risk to their own life "suck"?

Sure, some people are bad, some are good. That's life and when you grow up a bit more you will realise the benefits of looking on the bright side of life

Umm... you should realize that: A) I was largely using hyperbole for the sake of humor, B) refusal to criticize average people doesn't help them, C) there's always room for improvement and even self sacrificing people are probably flawed in other ways, and D) the self sacrificing examples you just cited would have to be .01% of the population so they're really the exception that proves the rule.

Read some Nietzsche. He's a perfect example of how you can be a harsh social critic and still look on the bright side of life.

Same as I told the other guy, nothing is perfect, that doesn't mean that it sucks though, which is generally used to mean something is overall negative. If you don't mean that, use a different phase next time.

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

When you break it all down, the only reason this crap is actually happening is one very simple answer.

People suck.

No that's wrong, just a few people suck and ruin it for everyone else. Don't tar us all with the same brush because of the actions of a few idiots, there are about 9 million people in London and just a few thousand rioters in total.

No. People suck. They just suck in different ways. Only some of them riot violently. Others are greedy, hateful, envious or downright ignorant in various other ways. Most are simply apathetic and myopic until things go wrong, and then they swing to the opposite side of the spectrum and become reactionary.

Really? So the person who dedicates much of their life to running a charity for sick children "sucks"? Or the person who takes someone-elses place to die in a concentration camp "sucks"? The person who protests against oppressive regimes at risk to their own life "suck"?

Sure, some people are bad, some are good. That's life and when you grow up a bit more you will realise the benefits of looking on the bright side of life

Umm... you should realize that: A) I was largely using hyperbole for the sake of humor, B) refusal to criticize average people doesn't help them, C) there's always room for improvement and even self sacrificing people are probably flawed in other ways, and D) the self sacrificing examples you just cited would have to be .01% of the population so they're really the exception that proves the rule.

Read some Nietzsche. He's a perfect example of how you can be a harsh social critic and still look on the bright side of life.

Same as I told the other guy, nothing is perfect, that doesn't mean that it sucks though, which is generally used to mean something is overall negative. If you don't mean that, use a different phase next time.

No, as a rule humanity does kinda suck. It's not entirely bad, but it isn't good either. There's a lot of room for improvement. The only acceptable form of optimism is the optimism that takes pleasure in the struggle for self-overcoming. It is an optimism for what we can become, not about what we already are. Everything else is stagnation and wretched contentment.

 

[Jamous]

Very, very well said. For once someone keeping a decent grasp of the situation.

 

[JoJo]

When you break it all down, the only reason this crap is actually happening is one very simple answer.

People suck.

No that's wrong, just a few people suck and ruin it for everyone else. Don't tar us all with the same brush because of the actions of a few idiots, there are about 9 million people in London and just a few thousand rioters in total.

No. People suck. They just suck in different ways. Only some of them riot violently. Others are greedy, hateful, envious or downright ignorant in various other ways. Most are simply apathetic and myopic until things go wrong, and then they swing to the opposite side of the spectrum and become reactionary.

Really? So the person who dedicates much of their life to running a charity for sick children "sucks"? Or the person who takes someone-elses place to die in a concentration camp "sucks"? The person who protests against oppressive regimes at risk to their own life "suck"?

Sure, some people are bad, some are good. That's life and when you grow up a bit more you will realise the benefits of looking on the bright side of life

Umm... you should realize that: A) I was largely using hyperbole for the sake of humor, B) refusal to criticize average people doesn't help them, C) there's always room for improvement and even self sacrificing people are probably flawed in other ways, and D) the self sacrificing examples you just cited would have to be .01% of the population so they're really the exception that proves the rule.

Read some Nietzsche. He's a perfect example of how you can be a harsh social critic and still look on the bright side of life.

Same as I told the other guy, nothing is perfect, that doesn't mean that it sucks though, which is generally used to mean something is overall negative. If you don't mean that, use a different phase next time.

No, as a rule humanity does kinda suck. It's not entirely bad, but it isn't good either. There's a lot of room for improvement. The only acceptable form of optimism is the optimism that takes pleasure in the struggle for self-overcoming. It is an optimism for what we can become, not about what we already are. Everything else is stagnation and wretched contentment.

Sources please. Any evidence that badness isn't limited to a minority of assholes such as the rioters?

 

[Arkhangelsk]

there is a way to protest and this is not it. My fellow brits i must ask you:
[HEADING=1]WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING!! HAVE YOU NO PRIDE OR HONOUR FOR YOUR FELLOW COUNTRYMEN[/HEADING]
been gone for a year and you let the economy go to pot and act like bloody savages!

*thanks for pointing out the typo*

Your avatar just makes the post even more perfect.

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

When you break it all down, the only reason this crap is actually happening is one very simple answer.

People suck.

No that's wrong, just a few people suck and ruin it for everyone else. Don't tar us all with the same brush because of the actions of a few idiots, there are about 9 million people in London and just a few thousand rioters in total.

No. People suck. They just suck in different ways. Only some of them riot violently. Others are greedy, hateful, envious or downright ignorant in various other ways. Most are simply apathetic and myopic until things go wrong, and then they swing to the opposite side of the spectrum and become reactionary.

Really? So the person who dedicates much of their life to running a charity for sick children "sucks"? Or the person who takes someone-elses place to die in a concentration camp "sucks"? The person who protests against oppressive regimes at risk to their own life "suck"?

Sure, some people are bad, some are good. That's life and when you grow up a bit more you will realise the benefits of looking on the bright side of life

Umm... you should realize that: A) I was largely using hyperbole for the sake of humor, B) refusal to criticize average people doesn't help them, C) there's always room for improvement and even self sacrificing people are probably flawed in other ways, and D) the self sacrificing examples you just cited would have to be .01% of the population so they're really the exception that proves the rule.

Read some Nietzsche. He's a perfect example of how you can be a harsh social critic and still look on the bright side of life.

Same as I told the other guy, nothing is perfect, that doesn't mean that it sucks though, which is generally used to mean something is overall negative. If you don't mean that, use a different phase next time.

No, as a rule humanity does kinda suck. It's not entirely bad, but it isn't good either. There's a lot of room for improvement. The only acceptable form of optimism is the optimism that takes pleasure in the struggle for self-overcoming. It is an optimism for what we can become, not about what we already are. Everything else is stagnation and wretched contentment.

Sources please. Any evidence that badness isn't limited to a minority of assholes such as the rioters?

You're construing "badness" far too narrowly. Under "badness" I would not only include violent behaviors but also greed, self centered-ness, a lack of critical thinking and a general disposition to uphold the consumption of goods as a more worthy life-goal than acts of intellectual, artistic or physical creation. These are crimes of which the vast majority of mankind is guilty.

 

[Custard_Angel]

Its this kind of situation that has me questioning the value of freedom. Dont get me wrong, its something that i have always seen as an essential human right, but then again it also allows scumbags to start shit like what happened in London. Talk about a double edged sword.

Not really. People just need to learn that there is a time and a place for police brutality. Large scale riots like the one in London are most definatly the correct time and place. You would not believe how fast a riot will stop when you start firing tear gas at them then move in to beat the crap out of everybody with clubs.

Sure is China in here...

 

[Lancer873]

"Ralph wept for the end of innocence, the darkness of man's heart, and the fall through the air of the true, wise friend called Piggy."
- William Golding, Lord of the Flies, final line... I don't think it's been this relevant in ages.

 

[JoJo]

When you break it all down, the only reason this crap is actually happening is one very simple answer.

People suck.

No that's wrong, just a few people suck and ruin it for everyone else. Don't tar us all with the same brush because of the actions of a few idiots, there are about 9 million people in London and just a few thousand rioters in total.

No. People suck. They just suck in different ways. Only some of them riot violently. Others are greedy, hateful, envious or downright ignorant in various other ways. Most are simply apathetic and myopic until things go wrong, and then they swing to the opposite side of the spectrum and become reactionary.

Really? So the person who dedicates much of their life to running a charity for sick children "sucks"? Or the person who takes someone-elses place to die in a concentration camp "sucks"? The person who protests against oppressive regimes at risk to their own life "suck"?

Sure, some people are bad, some are good. That's life and when you grow up a bit more you will realise the benefits of looking on the bright side of life

Umm... you should realize that: A) I was largely using hyperbole for the sake of humor, B) refusal to criticize average people doesn't help them, C) there's always room for improvement and even self sacrificing people are probably flawed in other ways, and D) the self sacrificing examples you just cited would have to be .01% of the population so they're really the exception that proves the rule.

Read some Nietzsche. He's a perfect example of how you can be a harsh social critic and still look on the bright side of life.

Same as I told the other guy, nothing is perfect, that doesn't mean that it sucks though, which is generally used to mean something is overall negative. If you don't mean that, use a different phase next time.

No, as a rule humanity does kinda suck. It's not entirely bad, but it isn't good either. There's a lot of room for improvement. The only acceptable form of optimism is the optimism that takes pleasure in the struggle for self-overcoming. It is an optimism for what we can become, not about what we already are. Everything else is stagnation and wretched contentment.

Sources please. Any evidence that badness isn't limited to a minority of assholes such as the rioters?

You're construing "badness" far too narrowly. Under "badness" I would not only include violent behaviors but also greed, self centered-ness, a lack of critical thinking and a general disposition to uphold the consumption of goods as a more worthy life-goal than acts of intellectual, artistic or physical creation. These are crimes of which the vast majority of mankind is guilty.

Then I'm afraid we must agree to disagree as I will never accept the "lack of critical thinking" as a crime or badness. People should be allowed to do as they wish as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others, so if they wish to consume rather than create then who are we to stop them?

 

[Woodsey]

As someone who lives in London, who took part in the street clean-up afterwards and had a few favourite local shops absolutely wrecked I have to say: a lot of you people are talking absolute shite.

I would clarify more, but I don't feel like internet arguing, to be honest.

Sooo... do you think it is because people are angry or just because they're a bunch of retards?

Im gonna do what I can to keep this post even tempered, but Im raging quite substantially at that comic.
I still cannot get my head around this notion that people have that riots start out of nowhere, the areas that riots started in are the poorest areas of the country, areas made poorer by the actions and policies of Mr David Cameron- these people where pushed and pushed ot the very edge where they snapped.
So yeah blame the rioters and looters for acting like animals, but dont for one fucking second make out that the blame lands solely with them.

Read the bit under it. Fleshes out his argument, but I agree with the overall sentiment of the comic.

A murderer could kill someone because of societal pressures, poverty, anger at the government, anything. But that doesn't excuse him from the fact that he murdered someone.

But the main thing I'm annoyed about to do with the riots? The fact that they're trying to introduce curfews. They won't affect me personally, but the whole idea of them is just outrageous.

I agree, they're now knee-jerking-off completely in their reactions. First we got the good old "moral degradation" argument (as opposed to what? The heinous amounts of racism, homophobia and sexism in previous decades?), now all the stupid new rules.

National service-esque stuff for all 16-year-olds is another one. A surprisingly large number of the rioters weren't even the people they're completely blaming. Ages of those arrested reportedly ran wildly between those in their late teens to those in their 40s, and across a huge number of professions.

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

When you break it all down, the only reason this crap is actually happening is one very simple answer.

People suck.

No that's wrong, just a few people suck and ruin it for everyone else. Don't tar us all with the same brush because of the actions of a few idiots, there are about 9 million people in London and just a few thousand rioters in total.

No. People suck. They just suck in different ways. Only some of them riot violently. Others are greedy, hateful, envious or downright ignorant in various other ways. Most are simply apathetic and myopic until things go wrong, and then they swing to the opposite side of the spectrum and become reactionary.

Really? So the person who dedicates much of their life to running a charity for sick children "sucks"? Or the person who takes someone-elses place to die in a concentration camp "sucks"? The person who protests against oppressive regimes at risk to their own life "suck"?

Sure, some people are bad, some are good. That's life and when you grow up a bit more you will realise the benefits of looking on the bright side of life

Umm... you should realize that: A) I was largely using hyperbole for the sake of humor, B) refusal to criticize average people doesn't help them, C) there's always room for improvement and even self sacrificing people are probably flawed in other ways, and D) the self sacrificing examples you just cited would have to be .01% of the population so they're really the exception that proves the rule.

Read some Nietzsche. He's a perfect example of how you can be a harsh social critic and still look on the bright side of life.

Same as I told the other guy, nothing is perfect, that doesn't mean that it sucks though, which is generally used to mean something is overall negative. If you don't mean that, use a different phase next time.

No, as a rule humanity does kinda suck. It's not entirely bad, but it isn't good either. There's a lot of room for improvement. The only acceptable form of optimism is the optimism that takes pleasure in the struggle for self-overcoming. It is an optimism for what we can become, not about what we already are. Everything else is stagnation and wretched contentment.

Sources please. Any evidence that badness isn't limited to a minority of assholes such as the rioters?

You're construing "badness" far too narrowly. Under "badness" I would not only include violent behaviors but also greed, self centered-ness, a lack of critical thinking and a general disposition to uphold the consumption of goods as a more worthy life-goal than acts of intellectual, artistic or physical creation. These are crimes of which the vast majority of mankind is guilty.

Then I'm afraid we must agree to disagree as I will never accept the "lack of critical thinking" as a crime or badness. People should be allowed to do as they wish as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others, so if they wish to consume rather than create then who are we to stop them?

I'm not a moral realist, values come down to individual will as far as I see it. So agreeing to disagree is perfectly reasonable. However, I will leave you with this thought: the holocaust couldn't have been perpetrated by a few individuals alone, no matter how bloodthirsty they were. The necessary conditions for the holocaust also included the lack of critical thinking and the downright willful ignorance of the German people. A lesser evil than those who ran the gas chambers to be sure, but still an evil by any reasonable account.

Even deontology, which ignores virtues and vices and merely judges people by their actions, requires that people be rational agents. How could someone possibly be considered a rational agent if they lack an ability to think critically?

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

I won't lie, the dress and the Mega Man choker are kinda hot. Though I see poor Erin is still trying to get past that stutter.

But having a march to the police station with a large crowd of people is NOT a smart thing to do.

No, I'd say that's the best thing to do- an organized peaceful protest in front of the police to display anger at the shooting. The problem is that a bunch of mental reprobates decided "Hey, this is a great time to steal anything I can lift, burn everything else and beat innocent people to death".

I'm entirely comfortable with blaming them. Displaying your dissatisfaction with the authorities does not require you to murder an elderly accountant or run over immigrant businessmen trying to protect their property.

 

[JoJo]

When you break it all down, the only reason this crap is actually happening is one very simple answer.

People suck.

No that's wrong, just a few people suck and ruin it for everyone else. Don't tar us all with the same brush because of the actions of a few idiots, there are about 9 million people in London and just a few thousand rioters in total.

No. People suck. They just suck in different ways. Only some of them riot violently. Others are greedy, hateful, envious or downright ignorant in various other ways. Most are simply apathetic and myopic until things go wrong, and then they swing to the opposite side of the spectrum and become reactionary.

Really? So the person who dedicates much of their life to running a charity for sick children "sucks"? Or the person who takes someone-elses place to die in a concentration camp "sucks"? The person who protests against oppressive regimes at risk to their own life "suck"?

Sure, some people are bad, some are good. That's life and when you grow up a bit more you will realise the benefits of looking on the bright side of life

Umm... you should realize that: A) I was largely using hyperbole for the sake of humor, B) refusal to criticize average people doesn't help them, C) there's always room for improvement and even self sacrificing people are probably flawed in other ways, and D) the self sacrificing examples you just cited would have to be .01% of the population so they're really the exception that proves the rule.

Read some Nietzsche. He's a perfect example of how you can be a harsh social critic and still look on the bright side of life.

Same as I told the other guy, nothing is perfect, that doesn't mean that it sucks though, which is generally used to mean something is overall negative. If you don't mean that, use a different phase next time.

No, as a rule humanity does kinda suck. It's not entirely bad, but it isn't good either. There's a lot of room for improvement. The only acceptable form of optimism is the optimism that takes pleasure in the struggle for self-overcoming. It is an optimism for what we can become, not about what we already are. Everything else is stagnation and wretched contentment.

Sources please. Any evidence that badness isn't limited to a minority of assholes such as the rioters?

You're construing "badness" far too narrowly. Under "badness" I would not only include violent behaviors but also greed, self centered-ness, a lack of critical thinking and a general disposition to uphold the consumption of goods as a more worthy life-goal than acts of intellectual, artistic or physical creation. These are crimes of which the vast majority of mankind is guilty.

Then I'm afraid we must agree to disagree as I will never accept the "lack of critical thinking" as a crime or badness. People should be allowed to do as they wish as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others, so if they wish to consume rather than create then who are we to stop them?

I'm not a moral realist, values come down to individual will as far as I see it. So agreeing to disagree is perfectly reasonable. However, I will leave you with this thought: the holocaust couldn't have been perpetrated by a few individuals alone, no matter how bloodthirsty they were. The necessary conditions for the holocaust also included the lack of critical thinking and the downright willful ignorance of the German people. A lesser evil than those who ran the gas chambers to be sure, but still an evil by any reasonable account.

Even deontology, which ignores virtues and vices and merely judges people by their actions, requires that people be rational agents. How could someone possibly be considered a rational agent if they lack an ability to think critically?

The holocaust happened because of a minority of haters and evil people, it's a sad fact that certain times these people will emerge from the cesspool to commit attrocitys. I've met a number of people online and even a couple in real life who I believe could we become capable of that if put in the right circustance. Remember though the Nazi's were a repressive regime who oppressed those who opposed them so you can't blame people for willfully ignoring atrocities for fear of their own life, you and me would very likely act the same way.

Also, no person is a rational agent, that's just silly. Everyone is molded to some degree by their environment and peers, no-one is free from bias. Anyone who believes they are entirely rational is a class A fool.

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

When you break it all down, the only reason this crap is actually happening is one very simple answer.

People suck.

No that's wrong, just a few people suck and ruin it for everyone else. Don't tar us all with the same brush because of the actions of a few idiots, there are about 9 million people in London and just a few thousand rioters in total.

No. People suck. They just suck in different ways. Only some of them riot violently. Others are greedy, hateful, envious or downright ignorant in various other ways. Most are simply apathetic and myopic until things go wrong, and then they swing to the opposite side of the spectrum and become reactionary.

Really? So the person who dedicates much of their life to running a charity for sick children "sucks"? Or the person who takes someone-elses place to die in a concentration camp "sucks"? The person who protests against oppressive regimes at risk to their own life "suck"?

Sure, some people are bad, some are good. That's life and when you grow up a bit more you will realise the benefits of looking on the bright side of life

Umm... you should realize that: A) I was largely using hyperbole for the sake of humor, B) refusal to criticize average people doesn't help them, C) there's always room for improvement and even self sacrificing people are probably flawed in other ways, and D) the self sacrificing examples you just cited would have to be .01% of the population so they're really the exception that proves the rule.

Read some Nietzsche. He's a perfect example of how you can be a harsh social critic and still look on the bright side of life.

Same as I told the other guy, nothing is perfect, that doesn't mean that it sucks though, which is generally used to mean something is overall negative. If you don't mean that, use a different phase next time.

No, as a rule humanity does kinda suck. It's not entirely bad, but it isn't good either. There's a lot of room for improvement. The only acceptable form of optimism is the optimism that takes pleasure in the struggle for self-overcoming. It is an optimism for what we can become, not about what we already are. Everything else is stagnation and wretched contentment.

Sources please. Any evidence that badness isn't limited to a minority of assholes such as the rioters?

You're construing "badness" far too narrowly. Under "badness" I would not only include violent behaviors but also greed, self centered-ness, a lack of critical thinking and a general disposition to uphold the consumption of goods as a more worthy life-goal than acts of intellectual, artistic or physical creation. These are crimes of which the vast majority of mankind is guilty.

Then I'm afraid we must agree to disagree as I will never accept the "lack of critical thinking" as a crime or badness. People should be allowed to do as they wish as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others, so if they wish to consume rather than create then who are we to stop them?

I'm not a moral realist, values come down to individual will as far as I see it. So agreeing to disagree is perfectly reasonable. However, I will leave you with this thought: the holocaust couldn't have been perpetrated by a few individuals alone, no matter how bloodthirsty they were. The necessary conditions for the holocaust also included the lack of critical thinking and the downright willful ignorance of the German people. A lesser evil than those who ran the gas chambers to be sure, but still an evil by any reasonable account.

Even deontology, which ignores virtues and vices and merely judges people by their actions, requires that people be rational agents. How could someone possibly be considered a rational agent if they lack an ability to think critically?

The holocaust happened because of a minority of haters and evil people, it's a sad fact that certain times these people will emerge from the cesspool to commit attrocitys. I've met a number of people online and even a couple in real life who I believe could we become capable of that if put in the right circustance. Remember though the Nazi's were a repressive regime who oppressed those who opposed them so you can't blame people for willfully ignoring atrocities for fear of their own life, you and me would very likely act the same way.

Also, no person is a rational agent, that's just silly. Everyone is molded to some degree by their environment and peers, no-one is free from bias. Anyone who believes they are entirely rational is a class A fool.

You seem to be implying that a person is bad if they are driven by hatred. Critical thinking is directly tied to this. If one responds emotionally to an argument without analyzing it then one can easily be driven to extremes. While I of course agree that no one is a completely rational agent, it doesn't mean that there aren't different levels of rationality. A person who is incapable or unwilling to analyze claims for truth or falsehood has a very limited agency. While it is true that the basis for action ultimately resides at an emotional level, we also need the rational ability to analyze a situation and act so that we bring about what we desire.

While it is true that the Nazis rose to power partially due to violence and intimidation, it would be impossible for them to do so solely by those means. It is quite daft to think that the entire country assented to Nazi rule out of fear, even though that may have been the case at the very end after they had already come to power. The Nazis and their philosophy had the won the support of many ordinary people because of the spectacles they put on and their incredibly effective use of propaganda, both of which rely upon a lack of critical thinking.

Furthermore, someone who is unaccustomed to thinking critically and derives most of their views from faith and indoctrination is much more likely to respond to criticism with fanaticism rather than rational argument. If you value rational argument and understanding as a source of conflict resolution rather than violence, then you must admit the indispensability of critical thinking. How can a person be 'good' if they are incapable of adopting and entertaining opposing views and accepting that they might be wrong? Being a bigoted self-righteous ass and lacking critical thinking go hand-in-hand. Surely your definition of a 'good person' precludes application to such people?

 

[Saltyk]

See that people? That's what we call logic. Blame the guy acting like an asshole for acting like an asshole. Why don't more people do this?

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

See that people? That's what we call logic. Blame the guy acting like an asshole for acting like an asshole. Why don't more people do this?

Well, if you just treat it as a bunch of people acting out for no reason then you aren't going to know how to prevent it from happening again. Sure, probably the majority of the rioters are just in it for loot and chaos, but one needs to suss out why it erupted in the first place so that one can fix the situation. Treating the rioters as mindless beasts that just need to be constrained is just as stupid as saying that they were completely controlled by external forces and had no choice in the matter.

 

[Saltyk]

See that people? That's what we call logic. Blame the guy acting like an asshole for acting like an asshole. Why don't more people do this?

Well, if you just treat it as a bunch of people acting out for no reason then you aren't going to know how to prevent it from happening again. Sure, probably the majority of the rioters are just in it for loot and chaos, but one needs to suss out why it erupted in the first place so that one can fix the situation. Treating the rioters as mindless beasts that just need to be constrained is just as stupid as saying that they were completely controlled by external forces and had no choice in the matter.

I'm just saying we blame the people themselves for their own actions. Don't let them shirk their responsibility behind some scapegoat. Finding the root of the problem is fine. But don't let that excuse their actions. Let it explain their actions, but not excuse it. Blame the people who took place in the riot for the riot.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Damn straight, and the rioters seem so thrilled and happy too. Having a (wrecking) ball.

 

[Alar]

One would think that, if they were really pissed at the government and the police and the like, they would ONLY BE ATTACKING GOVERNMENT INSTITUTIONS AND POLICE STATIONS. But, ya know, I could be wrong.