Critical Miss: The Sega Guide

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ArmorArmadillo

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Grey Carter said:
ArmorArmadillo said:
KeyMaster45 said:
Legally the situation is black and white; Sega has every right to shutdown a fan project. That doesn't mean we have to agree with their decision; nor does it mean we can't view it in a negative light. Since by all outward appearances they let the game go through the full 8 years (maybe less) of development and shut it down only when it was released. If they didn't want them making it they should have shut them down long before now.
It's slightly more complex than that. A sad feature (and big flaw IMO) of copyright law is that if you are aware of something that violates your IP, you are OBLIGATED to shut it down, and if you don't you will be seen to have waived your right to enforce your IP and will lose claim to it in the future.
Now a lot of the apologists for Sega (and Square when they shut down that sweet looking Chrono Trigger Remake) cite this particular law and the biggest counter point is, yet again, Valve. There are countless mods/remakes/adaptations of Half Life and it's code yet somehow no shadowy forces have swept in and stolen the Half Life IP from under them.
If everyone in the world was Valve we'd live in a world without war or poverty and cars would run on carbon dioxide and have cupcakes for exhaust.

I'm not trying to be an 'apologist' for Sega, but I am suggesting that there is a legal reason for them to do so other than they're desire to be jerks.

As for Valve, if there was ever a legal fight over the Half-Life IP they may have a real problem on their hands. Of course, the reason they can take these risks is because Valve is in such a secure position, currently controlling the best digital distribution medium, games that Yahtzee can't criticize, and a fanbase that would gladly leap into a volcano to unlock a Portal 2 teaser trailer.

At this point, all Sega has is its old IPs. Which, again, their fault for not making better more recent games, but still, a reason to be more protective.

(As a side note, none of this should stand in your way of making funny comics like this one)
 

Gindil

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ArmorArmadillo said:
KeyMaster45 said:
Legally the situation is black and white; Sega has every right to shutdown a fan project. That doesn't mean we have to agree with their decision; nor does it mean we can't view it in a negative light. Since by all outward appearances they let the game go through the full 8 years (maybe less) of development and shut it down only when it was released. If they didn't want them making it they should have shut them down long before now.
It's slightly more complex than that. A sad feature (and big flaw IMO) of copyright law is that if you are aware of something that violates your IP, you are OBLIGATED to shut it down, and if you don't you will be seen to have waived your right to enforce your IP and will lose claim to it in the future.

The smarter move though: Find great fan projects, and then convince the fan devs to come make it into an official project that they can release.

Also, why pick on Sega when other people are doing the same thing and yet still fanatically praised by fans. Star Fox 64 on the DS? An 'update' of Kirby Superstar where the only new level was a palatte swap?
No, you're thinking of trademark law. There's no obligation to shut down a project by any means in US copyright law.
 

toapat

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ArmorArmadillo said:
It's slightly more complex than that. A sad feature (and big flaw IMO) of copyright law is that if you are aware of something that violates your IP, you are OBLIGATED to shut it down, and if you don't you will be seen to have waived your right to enforce your IP and will lose claim to it in the future.

The smarter move though: Find great fan projects, and then convince the fan devs to come make it into an official project that they can release.
you apparently dont understand how copyright law works then. Copyright law applies only to the country where the business is founded, and so in the US, this is a simply black and white issue, in Japan, this is nowhere near as obvious of a solution, because they do not have the same laws as we do.
 

Echo136

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zombie711 said:
Sega has the right to do this. Did the fans ever bother to contact sega in the EIGHT FRIGGGIN years it took to make that game and ask for permision to use their IP, (no seriously a group of guys spent 10 years making a kings quest game, and they were allowed to release because they asked for permision from Activision). I know 8 years is a lot of work, but most fan games (except mario games) are shut down so you should have seen this comming.
Seriously, it was mentioned just 2 posts above you that they got permission to do this multiple times, and yet they got shut down probably because the fan remake would interfere with their actual game.
 

Gindil

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toapat said:
ArmorArmadillo said:
It's slightly more complex than that. A sad feature (and big flaw IMO) of copyright law is that if you are aware of something that violates your IP, you are OBLIGATED to shut it down, and if you don't you will be seen to have waived your right to enforce your IP and will lose claim to it in the future.

The smarter move though: Find great fan projects, and then convince the fan devs to come make it into an official project that they can release.
you apparently dont understand how copyright law works then. Copyright law applies only to the country where the business is founded, and so in the US, this is a simply black and white issue, in Japan, this is nowhere near as obvious of a solution, because they do not have the same laws as we do.
Uhm... I could go into TRIPS and the various treaties that tell most high income nations that the copyright law of the US is respected in another country.

Yes, there's some differences, but the law is still pretty similar in most of the G8 countries.
 

archvile93

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twaddle said:
Oh for the love of god people. The 2d sonic games were great, yes, but the sonic adventure games were great as well. The first sonic adventure had it's flaws yes and sega realized these said flaws and completely fixed them in the next game Sonic adventure 2. And the sonic advance games weren't that bad either especially sonic advance 3. I can't speak for the other games because they did seem bollocks. There was one more sonic game that was actually quite good that i can think of since the old 2d style ones and that was sonic rush. It was the first time they introduced a new character we were actually interested in and you have to admit that fight between blaze and sonic dragon ball z style was pretty sweet. Sonic Team isn't all bad they have a few good games it's just they don't know what to do with themselves.
Adventure 2 was okay, better than one, but certainly had its own share of problems, the main thing being the horrible camera. Summed up perfectly in the fight with the Biolizard, where the camera shifts to showing what's behind you at the points where it chases you so you can see it trying to rip your spine out, neglecting the more important, what's in front of you, like that death drop (okay fast moving current, but the end result is the same). A particularly annoying example considering that it was clearl a concious design choice, whereas at other times it's just poorly done but unintentional coding rearing it's ugly head. I felt like a cartoon villian that runs into a wall as he flees from the heroes because he was too stupid to pay attention to anything but them. I've played (rented) other sonic games after that and I assure you they haven't fixed this at all.
 

ArmorArmadillo

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toapat said:
ArmorArmadillo said:
It's slightly more complex than that. A sad feature (and big flaw IMO) of copyright law is that if you are aware of something that violates your IP, you are OBLIGATED to shut it down, and if you don't you will be seen to have waived your right to enforce your IP and will lose claim to it in the future.

The smarter move though: Find great fan projects, and then convince the fan devs to come make it into an official project that they can release.
you apparently dont understand how copyright law works then. Copyright law applies only to the country where the business is founded, and so in the US, this is a simply black and white issue, in Japan, this is nowhere near as obvious of a solution, because they do not have the same laws as we do.
Unless they want to do business internationally and are dealing with a US fan remake of a game.
 

Twad

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There are days like that i just dont understand the hate some corps have for fan-made content, spin-off fangames or mods or whatever. In the end it just give visibility to their own product and make people interestted in it... plus they can hire the team who made it if they are good.
 

thatstheguy

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To be fair, any fan who spends 8 years making a Sonic game instead of their own is doing it wrong.
 

The Wooster

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Ace IV said:
I googled it, and I can only find stories of Sega shutting down a Streets of Rage remake, not Sonic. Is that what you meant? Can I get a link to what the comic refers to in the second panel?
Streets of Rage Remix. Sonic is a representation of Sega in this case.
 

p3t3r

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hey sega helped with vanquish they can make all the bad sonic games they want. hell vanquish is all about going fast and being awesome
 

Infernai

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Come on Sega, can't you make another Shinobi game? You know...those really awesome, super hard Ninja games you made and transitioned succesfully to 3D (Unlike ANOTHER stagnating property you continually use that has a fanbase so rabid and insane that they make the Twilight Fandom seem like perfectly stable human beings).

Ah well, good comic, describes perfectly how Sega make most of their games..
 

SOCIALCONSTRUCT

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I'm gradually coming to truly hate nostalgia and reference comedy. So basically everything. I hate everything now.
 

robinkom

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Time for the guy with the Sega avatar to chime in.

Yes, this comic is true.

The reason for the stagnation? I would guess the Japanese game industry which itself is stagnating as a whole. Sonic Team are pretty much a "Sonic Factory" at this point. They've even expressed discontent with not being able to work on other games more often. Internally, the current Board of Directors at Sega are extremely conservative, something I would possibly attribute to Sammy, their parent company. They just have Sonic Team churn out game after game no matter the quality which itself is sad.

More times than not, it seems like Sega is hitting big with new IP's over their classic ones that aren't Phantasy Star. While the Online and Universe titles are good, there hasn't been a traditional Phantasy Star RPG in 17 years.

Fan outcry for a comeback of Streets of Rage goes unnoticed.

Shinobi had a mediocre PS2 comeback and follow-up with a different protagonist.

They bastardized Golden Axe with that Beast Rider abomination.

Alien Syndrome was stuck as an unnoticed PSP title with a lackluster Wii port.

They turned the once-awesome Tactical-RPG series, Shining Force, into a horrible Diablo knockoff.

After Burner, while still good, has been relegated to downloadable titles and still doesn't do anymore than the old arcade games did, just with updated graphics.

Sonic finally returns to 2D game play and they somehow cocked it up.

It's almost become as if anything before the Dreamcast, you're not supposed to talk about it, like some kind of unspoken rule I didn't know was in place.

What the current powers that be at Sega strive for is to be like everyone else and release what they do. They're releasing new IPs, some that are really good mind you, that are just playing the "Me too" card alongside similar games from companies like EA or Activision. Of course, if they played to their classic fan base, they'd probably find a way to fail at that too because they're not Nintendo. Or, rather, they don't have a collaboration of the right minds to pull it off like Nintendo.

It's all about making money of course, I'm just not sure at this point whose money they're going after.
 

Nick Angelici

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I want to fix SEGA, If I held some influence as I worked there, I would definitly bring the problems up, Sega has made so many games that I do like, and they arent even Sonic, it sucks that I cant do anything to get them to change.
 

Okysho

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archvile93 said:
twaddle said:
Oh for the love of god people. The 2d sonic games were great, yes, but the sonic adventure games were great as well. The first sonic adventure had it's flaws yes and sega realized these said flaws and completely fixed them in the next game Sonic adventure 2. And the sonic advance games weren't that bad either especially sonic advance 3. I can't speak for the other games because they did seem bollocks. There was one more sonic game that was actually quite good that i can think of since the old 2d style ones and that was sonic rush. It was the first time they introduced a new character we were actually interested in and you have to admit that fight between blaze and sonic dragon ball z style was pretty sweet. Sonic Team isn't all bad they have a few good games it's just they don't know what to do with themselves.
Adventure 2 was okay, better than one, but certainly had its own share of problems, the main thing being the horrible camera. Summed up perfectly in the fight with the Biolizard, where the camera shifts to showing what's behind you at the points where it chases you so you can see it trying to rip your spine out, neglecting the more important, what's in front of you, like that death drop (okay fast moving current, but the end result is the same). A particularly annoying example considering that it was clearl a concious design choice, whereas at other times it's just poorly done but unintentional coding rearing it's ugly head. I felt like a cartoon villian that runs into a wall as he flees from the heroes because he was too stupid to pay attention to anything but them. I've played (rented) other sonic games after that and I assure you they haven't fixed this at all.
But a single camera issue doesn't make sonic adventure 2 a bad game. Call me wet behind the ears, but Sonic adventure 2 was the first game I played that featured anything resembling a moral choice system and actually gave you something for finishing both stories and not only were both the light and dark side stories radically different, you actually were rewarded for essentially beating the game twice! Plus the story was decent (as decent as an E rated game can get, don't give me this shadow the hedgehog (game) crap where he says damnit every 10 seconds.) and maybe it was just me, but the multiplayer had a lot of value.

Moral choice systems that we have today tend to be crap anyways. Yahtzee said it best. "Drink some lead-based paint and retard themselves out of existence."

Many people disregard it (god forbid you like something that isn't 2-D and played on a massive humming brick... I take that brick part back) because it was new and didn't have 16 bit graphics, but Sonic adventure 2 is without a doubt a game that shows you how to do a linear story model RIGHT. Sonic team wasted nothing when making this game. It has three (five if you count kart racing and the chao stuff) different gameplay modes which all fit seamlessly into the story without spreading itself too thin. (which is more than most games can say) and still manages to be intuitive and unique without an open world system (I believe Sonic adventure 1 tried that and it was bloody tedious!)

Frankly I don't understand why no one likes this game.
 

Gindil

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thatstheguy said:
To be fair, any fan who spends 8 years making a Sonic game instead of their own is doing it wrong.
...

Uhm... This was about the streets of Rage remake...