Critics Ruin Video Games? ?Good!

[Moonlight Butterfly]

It's when people mix violence against women with making it sexy that it makes me uncomfortable. Not violence against women.

 

[Rienimportant]

You really don't know anything about the source material, do you?

No, the C-Squad in NIght City do not go around gunning down hookers "for their depraved ways." they do it because people who've grafted so much cyberware on their bodies that it's driven them to go carve up people for fun. For fuck's sake, given Night City's anime-level crime problem, prostitution doesn't even warrant enforcement let alone deploying the most heavily armed and armored band of trigger happy cops the city has. The Cyber Psycho unit is only called out when someone suffers from a very specific form of psychotic rage and begins slaughtering people for being filthy fleshbags that are using up his or her oxygen.

I'm not sure that it really ought to make a difference. Saying that, "Oh, you just don't understand because you don't know the source material" is great and all if it was something that was specifically found in areas dedicated to people who know the source material.
The internet is not one such area. Everyone is here. Including those who have no idea what is going on in the setting of Cyberpunk. As such, it's a trailer marketed towards the general public, who cannot be expected to have any background information on the subject.

 

[phylline]

Not really feeling it I got to say.

The devotion to Sarkeesian's drivel as well fighting up imaginary enemies is making it hard for me to take this as serious as the author intended. I am sorry when you start critiquing the Cyberpunk 2077 without any sort of understanding of what the trailer is portraying and then start using it as springboard for another Sexism argument I am going to stop listening.

What was cyberpunk 2077 portraying? I'm sorry, I don't get the damn trailer at all. The premise seems to be "people are getting a lot of implants, people with implants want to kill the meatbags, men in combat gear shooting half naked lady with impractical looking blades coming out of her arms and massive honking tits. Oh and her skin is bulletproof apparently." I'm sorry but what the flying fuck was going on in that trailer? Why did she have to be half naked? Why did she need the F cup? I don't get why that trailer got everyone so hyped for the game, it couldn't turn me off faster.

Why is it people are constantly in a giant uproar about things like this:

Spoiler

But no one cares when you have things like this:

Spoiler

I mean all of them are idealized, none of them are your average man or woman and all of them have their provocative parts exposed (cleavage, belly, abs etc). Sorry but people in video games aren't average. In videogames, people are idealized, it doesn't matter if they're male or female.

I can't find the comic that I was looking for that demonstrates my point pretty well, but the images you've just posted are conforming to a male power fantasy - it's not just the issue that they're idealized.

Anyway, on the topic of this thread... We live in a sexist, racist, etc, society. Video games aren't any more at fault than the general mainstream is. But nor am I going to really drag that out or argue this point to gamers.

 

[phylline]

I can't find the comic that I was looking for that demonstrates my point pretty well, but the images you've just posted are conforming to a male power fantasy - it's not just the issue that they're idealized.

Anyway, on the topic of this thread... We live in a sexist, racist, etc, society. Video games aren't any more at fault than the general mainstream is. But nor am I going to really drag that out or argue this point to gamers.

Great... The same game also has characters who don't conform to the "male power" bullcrap and make them a lot more effeminate.

Spoiler

And women who hold the power

Spoiler

Men and women have different body types, men are generally more muscular than women, and women are deemed attractive by most if they have flat chests and big breasts. All of these things are idealized in games.

You may not have realized this... But pretty much ALL fictional settings and characters are FANTASY. The characters within them are FANTASY. They're going to look the same as the creator's FANTASY.

Hey - I'm not willing to discuss this with you if you begin to condescend me.

I think you may have misunderstood me or I didn't explain myself too well. Yes, they're all idealizations. Yes, women are deemed more attractive to men if they have bigger breasts and buttocks. However, men are generally not deemed more attractive to women if they have absolutely huge muscles (note: absolutely huge). That's more what men aspire to be, because it shows power and the ability to dominate. Yes, they're all fantasy as you quite patronizingly pointed out. But they're quite clearly fantasy tailored to a male target audience which is what people have issue with I think.

Edit: I also don't think you noticed/I didn't make it clear enough that I was talking specifically about the images you posted (and I am aware they're all from LoL). Whilst I think the images you've recently chosen aren't representative of how women and men are painted in gaming generally, I was pointing out the issue with the two images you chose.

 

[Evilpigeon]

However, men are generally not deemed more attractive to women if they have absolutely huge muscles (note: absolutely huge). That's more what men aspire to be, because it shows power and the ability to dominate. Yes, they're all fantasy as you quite patronizingly pointed out. But they're quite clearly fantasy tailored to a male target audience which is what people have issue with I think.

This always bugs me. Can somebody give me a decent explanation of where this comes from? I mean seriously, go find yourself a sample group of men and go:

"Who wants to look like a body builder!"

I doubt you'll see many people put their hands up. It's not an aspirational male fanatasy, it's just not. I really want to know where this bullshit comes from, are there psychological studies out there? Does it come from women trying to translate from their perspective? Most women are significantly more preoccupied with their appearance, hence why they spend so much more money on it, and I could understand trying to find an equivalence. I don't know, is there some genuine research or anything actually backing this up or is it just a convincing sounding falsehood invented at some point by some writer trying to help prove their point.

 

[phylline]

However, men are generally not deemed more attractive to women if they have absolutely huge muscles (note: absolutely huge). That's more what men aspire to be, because it shows power and the ability to dominate. Yes, they're all fantasy as you quite patronizingly pointed out. But they're quite clearly fantasy tailored to a male target audience which is what people have issue with I think.

This always bugs me. Can somebody give me a decent explanation of where this comes from? I mean seriously, go find yourself a sample group of men and go:

"Who wants to look like a body builder!"

I doubt you'll see many people put their hands up. It's not an aspirational male fanatasy, it's just not. I really want to know where this bullshit comes from, are there psychological studies out there? Does it come from women trying to translate from their perspective? Most women are significantly more preoccupied with their appearance, hence why they spend so much more money on it, and I could understand trying to find an equivalence. I don't know, is there some genuine research or anything actually backing this up or is it just a convincing sounding falsehood invented at some point by some writer trying to help prove their point.

I'm not sure if there are studies yet which makes this topic a shaky one, but I don't think the issue is always "do men want to look like this?" as such, nor do I think it's a falsehood - although I fully accept there's only so far I can go with this when there's nothing concrete (yet I don't think there CAN be anything concrete). What do big muscles do and what can they signify? They signify the ability to attain physical power and the ability to dominate. They suggest extreme physical strength. It isn't conforming to what women want in men to attempt to appeal to them sexually (as very big breasts and buttocks do in female characters). Can you please clarify why you brought up women spending more time and money on their appearance?

 

[phylline]

Hey - I'm not willing to discuss this with you if you begin to condescend me.

I think you may have misunderstood me or I didn't explain myself too well. Yes, they're all idealizations. Yes, women are deemed more attractive to men if they have bigger breasts and buttocks. However, men are generally not deemed more attractive to women if they have absolutely huge muscles (note: absolutely huge). That's more what men aspire to be, because it shows power and the ability to dominate. Yes, they're all fantasy as you quite patronizingly pointed out. But they're quite clearly fantasy tailored to a male target audience which is what people have issue with I think.

Edit: I also don't think you noticed/I didn't make it clear enough that I was talking specifically about the images you posted (and I am aware they're all from LoL). Whilst I think the images you've recently chosen aren't representative of how women and men are painted in gaming generally, I was pointing out the issue with the two images you chose.

No, that's not being condescending. If I came across that way then I apologize, but that's not what was intended.

Also, games are generally created by men. Women are in the gaming industry, however it's mostly dominated by men. It's more of a sexist community rather than sexist game developers.

If men are making these games, the games will look how they want them to look. Also, not everyone sees the same things as attractive. Some people don't find flat chests and big tits to be attractive, some people don't find the muscles to be attractive. It's all subjective.

However the point is that they're all being portrayed in the same way. They're ALL idealized.

Thank-you for apologizing!

I'm aware games are mainly created by men, and that has an effect. The position of whoever creates the game will always drip through, it's unavoidable, so I understand why a lot of games come from a male perspective even though I have issues with that.

I know not everyone sees the same thing as attractive, but in society the thing that is seen as ideal for a woman (for a man - I'm not sure this ideal is pushed on women so much, I haven't formed an opinion... I can never decide if stick thin is pushed upon us or perfect hourglass is) is the perfect hourglass figure with big T&A.

I disagree that they're all being portrayed the same way although I agree that they're all idealized. I simply feel uncomfortable with how the genders are idealized. I think, /in general/ (there are of course exceptions), women are sexualized in video games and men aren't so much, even though all genders (another topic for another day, trans* individuals are represented piss-poorly in games) are portrayed very unrealistically.

 

[phylline]

I disagree that they're all being portrayed the same way although I agree that they're all idealized. I simply feel uncomfortable with how the genders are idealized. I think, /in general/ (there are of course exceptions), women are sexualized in video games and men aren't so much, even though all genders (another topic for another day, trans* individuals are represented piss-poorly in games) are portrayed very unrealistically.

It all eventually comes back down to body types. Men have more testosterone than women which causes them to have heavier builds and be more aggressive.

And men are arguably sexualized more in games. It's hardly uncommon in games for the male to somehow lose their shirt, or constantly be wearing a shirt which shows their chest off for no reason at all. Whether you find them attractive is subjective, but they're all shown the same way.

Hell, in Devil May Cry Dante starts the game stark naked...

They do indeed, but I don't think that detracts from my point, could you please explain what you mean?

Ooh - that's very arguable! I'd argue the only reason women keep their shirt in video games is because they're more sexualised. Breasts are seen as inherently sexual so it would be too explicit to show them. Men's bodies, however, aren't seen as inherently sexual simply for existing so they may take off their shirt.

edit: Oh! My friend just linked me to the comic I was looking for in my first post here! http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/2011-12-02-sexy.png

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Which is why I said the trailer made a mistake by not giving better context and some background. A few seconds would have been all it took to say "around here, people who get too much cybernetic implants go crazy, and then we have to deploy these badass cops to put them down before they start killing entire neighborhoods" ect....

Cyber psychosis is like the very tip of the iceberg.

When my gaming group ran a grimy low-powered campaign of Cyberpunk 2013 (That's the very first edition) in order to tenaciously crawl out of the abject poverty of a dystopian future, our characters had to do some pretty awful, terrible and criminal stuff. I specifically remember that more often than not we would drag away the fresh corpses of obvious chromers and harvest the technological gadgets installed in their flesh to sell to a used cyberware dealer. In a tight pinch trapped between getting caught and abandoning the prospect of loot, sometimes the group's medic would make the 'educated' guesses of a med-school dropout about what parts of the corpse was dead weight and those pieces would end up being left behind while the rest would be put in a watertight duffel bag.

You know what? Why didn't they put that in the trailer? That would've been fantastic.

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

I disagree that they're all being portrayed the same way although I agree that they're all idealized. I simply feel uncomfortable with how the genders are idealized. I think, /in general/ (there are of course exceptions), women are sexualized in video games and men aren't so much, even though all genders (another topic for another day, trans* individuals are represented piss-poorly in games) are portrayed very unrealistically.

It all eventually comes back down to body types. Men have more testosterone than women which causes them to have heavier builds and be more aggressive.

And men are arguably sexualized more in games. It's hardly uncommon in games for the male to somehow lose their shirt, or constantly be wearing a shirt which shows their chest off for no reason at all. Whether you find them attractive is subjective, but they're all shown the same way.

Hell, in Devil May Cry Dante starts the game stark naked...

They do indeed, but I don't think that detracts from my point, could you please explain what you mean?

Ooh - that's very arguable! I'd argue the only reason women keep their shirt in video games is because they're more sexualised. Breasts are seen as inherently sexual so it would be too explicit to show them. Men's bodies, however, aren't seen as inherently sexual simply for existing so they may take off their shirt.

edit: Oh! My friend just linked me to the comic I was looking for in my first post here! http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/2011-12-02-sexy.png

Seeing those images of what women really find desirable in male characters always make me feel self conscious and insecure. May I claim to know that feel now? Because I believe I know that feel now.

Oh, and stop looking at me like that, big-eyed lean Batman. You're making me blush.

 

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

Well dicks aren't generally seen as being visually appealing to most... They're just things that kind of hang down and flap about,

You know, having seen porn made by women, for women, I would contest that.

Spoiler: I will give you a clue as to the content

Although having said that, they're generally not hanging down

 

[phylline]

I disagree that they're all being portrayed the same way although I agree that they're all idealized. I simply feel uncomfortable with how the genders are idealized. I think, /in general/ (there are of course exceptions), women are sexualized in video games and men aren't so much, even though all genders (another topic for another day, trans* individuals are represented piss-poorly in games) are portrayed very unrealistically.

It all eventually comes back down to body types. Men have more testosterone than women which causes them to have heavier builds and be more aggressive.

And men are arguably sexualized more in games. It's hardly uncommon in games for the male to somehow lose their shirt, or constantly be wearing a shirt which shows their chest off for no reason at all. Whether you find them attractive is subjective, but they're all shown the same way.

Hell, in Devil May Cry Dante starts the game stark naked...

They do indeed, but I don't think that detracts from my point, could you please explain what you mean?

Ooh - that's very arguable! I'd argue the only reason women keep their shirt in video games is because they're more sexualised. Breasts are seen as inherently sexual so it would be too explicit to show them. Men's bodies, however, aren't seen as inherently sexual simply for existing so they may take off their shirt.

edit: Oh! My friend just linked me to the comic I was looking for in my first post here! http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/2011-12-02-sexy.png

Well dicks aren't generally seen as being visually appealing to most... They're just things that kind of hang down and flap about, if women didn't have tits they'd still show their chests and the sexism points would still exist. When you think about it, both men and women are showing the same body parts, but males are generally more muscular and women are generally curvy and slim. Which links back to the different body types of men and women.

Also, for the power fantasy comic... Some men in videogames are shown as being like that (lean instead of muscular etc)... Just look at Dante in Devil May Cry and Ezreal/Taric in League of Legends... Those are just examples I've already given...

For your first paragraph - I'm having a hard time seeing how that's relevant/a counter-argument, could you please explain it to me?

And yes, as said, there are notable exceptions (although I'd argue that Taric isn't particularly "lean" - he's still huge muscles huge armour). But I've noticed it's not the majority.

 

[Treblaine]

THIS shows how the perception about gamers IS around the gaming world and the people who make products for gamers / game reviewers/ game suppliers.

Sorry, but I've never ever heard of that website, I don't know of that video existing until someone posted a video complaining about me (I am a gamer) watching it.

How can it possibly represent all gamers.

Even if a small proportion of gamers watched it and liked it, so what?

You know what ELSE exists? PORNOGRAPHY! No one is freaking out - any more - about pornography existing.

And women are human as well, they have their boy bands, Justin Timberlake flashing his abs, Twilight, 50 Shades of Grey. If women had such a problem with men indulging in some sexual pandering they wouldn't indulge in it themselves.

you dont quite seem to get it.

you could make a comparisson to this video with a guy telling everyone how much of a gamer guy he is while fondling his testicles and nipples and slightly moaning.

and that video doesnt represent every gamer. it represents the perception publishers and developers have about gamers. there is a difference.

another example of this would be dead islands big chested female torso.
a developer and publisher thought people would like it. because in their minds gamers love boobs and violence enough to justify a higher priced limited edition version.

because sex and violence is all those immature gamers are interested in.

The thing is I guarantee you will find something like that in chat-roulette or somewhere else on the internet.

The internet is FULL TO BURSTING with perverted over-sexualised stuff and endless crossovers with any sort of related interests.

it represents the perception publishers and developers have about gamers.

No, it is just what a few people made likely with no authorisation or guidance. You can't possibly think that went all the way to the top and they okayed it. If the entire industry is to be judged by the actions of a few, why don't you judge it by the few who are unanimously praised, not the few who are unanimously booed. Judge not by the worst.

another example of this would be dead islands big chested female torso.

It's not like high profile depictions of dismemberment aren't already an established and accepted part of the media we consume. The game in that image above, Resident Evil 4 was showered with awards and everything to do with it, including marketing, was praised. Edge is not an obscure gaming magazine and that is not the only promotional depiction of Resident Evil 4 that had that extreme level of violence and gore.

The statuette in question is not sexist, it doesn't impose or assert any values on or about women, it is for a game that entirely about a zombie massacre at a beach resort. A bikini clad women is a common representation of a beach resort. What else would they have done? Have another indistinct generic decomposing man's head? The likes of which have filled our media since the 1920's dating back to things like The Mummy and Frankenstein and carried on with various ghouls and zombies since then?

Really you can see the fine line they are walking here, they are making a game - a form of entertainment - to do with people being dismembered. THAT IS WHAT THE GAME IS ABOUT! You can't say all that extreme violence and gore is fine as long as it's only happening to well covered up men. This isn't exceptional violence directed at women because they are women. This isn't sexist, this can simply be misrepresented as sexist which is not the same thing.

because in their minds gamers love boobs and violence enough to justify a higher priced limited edition version.

So you're psychic now?

See I don't depend on baseless assumptions of what they were thinking, I link together other evidence.

It's part of the zombie genre, that means extreme violence and dismemberment and gore are par for the course and accepted. It is set on a beach resort, women in bikinis are an iconic part of that. This naturally follows. What does not naturally follow is they ONLY did it because "violence + boobs".

No. That's far too simplistic, you are just playing word association games and not thinking like any rational person ever would. Put yourself in THEIR SHOES and try to get or of your mindset of indignant outrage and consider they might not be trying to do what you immediately assumed they were trying.

 

[DjinnFor]

I'm curious as to how Anita has so much power over you that simply commenting on and observing sexism in action (correct or otherwise) can make your hobby unenjoyable. Does she beam directly into your brain when you play or something? Has she changed a single thing? Is she taking your games away or even trying to?

What anti-ism apologists pretend is happening

Step 1: Claim that a game/trailer/concept is "x-ist"
Step 2: Rally a bunch of support from extremist anti-"x-ism" groups
Step 3: Convince non-extremists that your position is defensible
Step 4: Spread the word and inform your fanbase
Step 5: Game developers and publishers literally do not give a shit
Step 6: ???
Step 7: Profit

What actually happens:


Step 1: Claim that a game/trailer/concept is "x-ist"
Step 2: Rally a bunch of support from extremist anti-"x-ism" groups
Step 3: Convince non-extremists that your position is defensible
Step 4: Generate a bunch of negative PR
Step 5: Game developers and publishers actually think there is an issue they should address
Step 6: ???
Step 7: Profit

Because I'm having trouble thinking of a real scenario where she could reasonably impact your enjoyment.

There's rumors that the rape scene from Laura Croft 2013 has been removed from the game. There was literally 0 reason to do so except that a bunch of extremist groups preyed on the stupidity and laziness of the masses in order to mischaracterize it as an actual issue. What I lose out of the whole arrangement is a possibly crucial piece of character development in her character arc that may seriously effect the impact of the story, even if they manage to shoehorn in some other conflict to replace it.

*snip*

You're awesome. Just saved me like an hour of typing. Thanks.

 

[The Material Sheep]

I disagree that they're all being portrayed the same way although I agree that they're all idealized. I simply feel uncomfortable with how the genders are idealized. I think, /in general/ (there are of course exceptions), women are sexualized in video games and men aren't so much, even though all genders (another topic for another day, trans* individuals are represented piss-poorly in games) are portrayed very unrealistically.

It all eventually comes back down to body types. Men have more testosterone than women which causes them to have heavier builds and be more aggressive.

And men are arguably sexualized more in games. It's hardly uncommon in games for the male to somehow lose their shirt, or constantly be wearing a shirt which shows their chest off for no reason at all. Whether you find them attractive is subjective, but they're all shown the same way.

Hell, in Devil May Cry Dante starts the game stark naked...

They do indeed, but I don't think that detracts from my point, could you please explain what you mean?

Ooh - that's very arguable! I'd argue the only reason women keep their shirt in video games is because they're more sexualised. Breasts are seen as inherently sexual so it would be too explicit to show them. Men's bodies, however, aren't seen as inherently sexual simply for existing so they may take off their shirt.

edit: Oh! My friend just linked me to the comic I was looking for in my first post here! http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/2011-12-02-sexy.png

Power fantasy argument... it's so damn hypocritical. Certainly there is context to be considered but... at the end of the day isn't the over sexualized male character just an unfair portrayal of the ideal male as much as the female character is? Can the arguments not be reversed? If not, then why? Is it just because there is a blanket acceptance that in any and all context whether consciously or subconsciously it was always intended by those who created it to be intended for a males benefit at the detriment to the females? Is there no middle ground? Is that comic a pedantic jab that paints every straight female as having a certain idealized male that is objectively an ideal image of sexually appealing to women, at a detriment to those who like big hunks?

At the end of the day there is NOTHING wrong with sexualized characters. There is nothing wrong with a character being a shameless slab of beef, or a walking pair of breasts, with the qualifier that not all characters be forced into this roll. The problem is the lack of proper and realistic characters, not the existence of the cheap and pandering. Things are not perfect right now, but you really can't say there isn't male objectification. There is. However there are a lot more worth while and deep multifaceted male characters, the female and that's something we need to be working towards. Oh well, said my piece I suppose.

 

[lithiumvocals]

Ugh. This has got to be my least favorite thread in a while. I got about a paragraph into three Therumancer posts before realizing it.

Yeah, gaming has a bit of an issue when it comes to portraying sexes fairly. Not that there is anything inherently evil about sexualized characters and stuff. The problems come when there's not enough to balance it out.

That being said, I didn't watch the trailer, but upon viewing several stills from it, I've come to following conclusion: You've got to be some masochist to order a hooker with blade arms.

 

[phylline]

I disagree that they're all being portrayed the same way although I agree that they're all idealized. I simply feel uncomfortable with how the genders are idealized. I think, /in general/ (there are of course exceptions), women are sexualized in video games and men aren't so much, even though all genders (another topic for another day, trans* individuals are represented piss-poorly in games) are portrayed very unrealistically.

It all eventually comes back down to body types. Men have more testosterone than women which causes them to have heavier builds and be more aggressive.

And men are arguably sexualized more in games. It's hardly uncommon in games for the male to somehow lose their shirt, or constantly be wearing a shirt which shows their chest off for no reason at all. Whether you find them attractive is subjective, but they're all shown the same way.

Hell, in Devil May Cry Dante starts the game stark naked...

They do indeed, but I don't think that detracts from my point, could you please explain what you mean?

Ooh - that's very arguable! I'd argue the only reason women keep their shirt in video games is because they're more sexualised. Breasts are seen as inherently sexual so it would be too explicit to show them. Men's bodies, however, aren't seen as inherently sexual simply for existing so they may take off their shirt.

edit: Oh! My friend just linked me to the comic I was looking for in my first post here! http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/2011-12-02-sexy.png

Power fantasy argument... it's so damn hypocritical. Certainly there is context to be considered but... at the end of the day isn't the over sexualized male character just an unfair portrayal of the ideal male as much as the female character is? Can the arguments not be reversed? If not, then why? Is it just because there is a blanket acceptance that in any and all context whether consciously or subconsciously it was always intended by those who created it to be intended for a males benefit at the detriment to the females? Is there no middle ground? Is that comic a pedantic jab that paints every straight female as having a certain idealized male that is objectively an ideal image of sexually appealing to women, at a detriment to those who like big hunks?

At the end of the day there is NOTHING wrong with sexualized characters. There is nothing wrong with a character being a shameless slab of beef, or a walking pair of breasts, with the qualifier that not all characters be forced into this roll. The problem is the lack of proper and realistic characters, not the existence of the cheap and pandering. Things are not perfect right now, but you really can't say there isn't male objectification. There is. However there are a lot more worth while and deep multifaceted male characters, the female and that's something we need to be working towards. Oh well, said my piece I suppose.

Hi, you bring up a pretty interesting argument.

I've explained this before - both genders are idealized to hell and are utterly unrealistic. This could be a problem! I don't know. I don't know if the common big-muscled-masculine-power-trip character hurts men. It could. I'm not a man, so it's not my area and I don't know. It could be an issue and it could need changing, I'm definitely not arguing that these characters are okay or good (I'm a little uncomfortable about how everything needs to be hyper-masculine to be portrayed as powerful at the least).

I don't think designers make their characters intending to play women down. It's just the background noise of our culture, which is a shame, but I've already said I don't think video games are any more at fault than any other mainstream media. The thing I'm trying to say is, whilst the typical men in video-games (hyper-masculine big-muscled hulk) are portrayed really unrealistically (perhaps harmfully), they're not sexualised. Muscles signify physical strength and the ability to dominate - power. That's what muscles /do/. They have little to do with trying to pander to what women want (although they can represent the ability to "win" a woman, which is problematic). However, big boobs and buttocks with the perfect hourglass figure? In combat, it's not going to do much. It's purely there to objectify the female in question and place her firmly in the sexual sphere.

And you're right, every now and again, there's nothing wrong with a character being a "shameless slab of beef"! However, I find that incredibly distasteful and offensive, and seeing characters like that make me uncomfortable. Every now and again - fine, but I wouldn't like it. However, at the moment it's pretty common (although there are exceptions, I don't think they're the majority).

Why did I ever come to debate sexism on the escapist, it's an utter minefield...

 

[Lictor Face]

I dont understand the CYBERPUNK example in the link though. Sure shes over-sexualised. But over-emphasis in the CYBERPUNK genre is one of its core features. People OVERmodify themselves and they begin to hate non OVERmodified people and all that.

So what if shes in a tank top. She has blades portruding out of her wrists still wet with the blood of innocent people. If this were in real life she'd probs be executed with the proverbial if not literal bullet to the head.

People don't understand that a small puddle could be half a kilometer deep

 

[The Material Sheep]

I disagree that they're all being portrayed the same way although I agree that they're all idealized. I simply feel uncomfortable with how the genders are idealized. I think, /in general/ (there are of course exceptions), women are sexualized in video games and men aren't so much, even though all genders (another topic for another day, trans* individuals are represented piss-poorly in games) are portrayed very unrealistically.

It all eventually comes back down to body types. Men have more testosterone than women which causes them to have heavier builds and be more aggressive.

And men are arguably sexualized more in games. It's hardly uncommon in games for the male to somehow lose their shirt, or constantly be wearing a shirt which shows their chest off for no reason at all. Whether you find them attractive is subjective, but they're all shown the same way.

Hell, in Devil May Cry Dante starts the game stark naked...

They do indeed, but I don't think that detracts from my point, could you please explain what you mean?

Ooh - that's very arguable! I'd argue the only reason women keep their shirt in video games is because they're more sexualised. Breasts are seen as inherently sexual so it would be too explicit to show them. Men's bodies, however, aren't seen as inherently sexual simply for existing so they may take off their shirt.

edit: Oh! My friend just linked me to the comic I was looking for in my first post here! http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/2011-12-02-sexy.png

Power fantasy argument... it's so damn hypocritical. Certainly there is context to be considered but... at the end of the day isn't the over sexualized male character just an unfair portrayal of the ideal male as much as the female character is? Can the arguments not be reversed? If not, then why? Is it just because there is a blanket acceptance that in any and all context whether consciously or subconsciously it was always intended by those who created it to be intended for a males benefit at the detriment to the females? Is there no middle ground? Is that comic a pedantic jab that paints every straight female as having a certain idealized male that is objectively an ideal image of sexually appealing to women, at a detriment to those who like big hunks?

At the end of the day there is NOTHING wrong with sexualized characters. There is nothing wrong with a character being a shameless slab of beef, or a walking pair of breasts, with the qualifier that not all characters be forced into this roll. The problem is the lack of proper and realistic characters, not the existence of the cheap and pandering. Things are not perfect right now, but you really can't say there isn't male objectification. There is. However there are a lot more worth while and deep multifaceted male characters, the female and that's something we need to be working towards. Oh well, said my piece I suppose.

Hi, you bring up a pretty interesting argument.

I've explained this before - both genders are idealized to hell and are utterly unrealistic. This could be a problem! I don't know. I don't know if the common big-muscled-masculine-power-trip character hurts men. It could. I'm not a man, so it's not my area and I don't know. It could be an issue and it could need changing, I'm definitely not arguing that these characters are okay or good (I'm a little uncomfortable about how everything needs to be hyper-masculine to be portrayed as powerful at the least).

I don't think designers make their characters intending to play women down. It's just the background noise of our culture, which is a shame, but I've already said I don't think video games are any more at fault than any other mainstream media. The thing I'm trying to say is, whilst the typical men in video-games (hyper-masculine big-muscled hulk) are portrayed really unrealistically (perhaps harmfully), they're not sexualised. Muscles signify physical strength and the ability to dominate - power. That's what muscles /do/. They have little to do with trying to pander to what women want (although they can represent the ability to "win" a woman, which is problematic). However, big boobs and buttocks with the perfect hourglass figure? In combat, it's not going to do much. It's purely there to objectify the female in question and place her firmly in the sexual sphere.

And you're right, every now and again, there's nothing wrong with a character being a "shameless slab of beef"! However, I find that incredibly distasteful and offensive, and seeing characters like that make me uncomfortable. Every now and again - fine, but I wouldn't like it. However, at the moment it's pretty common (although there are exceptions, I don't think they're the majority).

Why did I ever come to debate sexism on the escapist, it's an utter minefield...

I think your heart is in the right place, but perhaps your being oversensitive and putting too much value in the opinion of others. I also think that you may be dismissing the forest for the trees, in that if a character is in fact a good character, just having an idealized beautiful body doesn't detract from that unless directly contrary to the character's premise. I also don't get what you mean by hulks aren't sexualized. All those traits you offered are things that reinforce the gender roll of the protector. Males in society are seen as ideal if they can protect the family and being a super hunk implies strength not necessarily to dominate, but to protect the wife and children. Offering the stability of protection and power is seen as the ideal of what a man can bring to a woman therefore societal views of the idealized features of what a beautiful male looks like is the hunk or at the very least a tall strong man. Just like the hour glass frame and large breasts are considered signs of fertility and caring which are suppose to be what society has deemed as the ideal of what a woman can bring a man. These are just gender rolls seen through the ideal of beauty our culture has fostered over the centuries. Whats wrong with it is not necessarily that these ideals on beauty exist, but that often times they are acted upon which is what is problematic.

As a gay woman I can't tell you what I find attractive about a man. I can use logic to try and asses the cause of these views held by the culture, and by those who I've met and have more interactions with. I don't try and profess this as how every female should be thinking or how every male should be thinking like I've found many anti porn feminists seem to view anything regarding sexuality. They see any sexualized aspect of the human form as something that signifies a deep and depraved mental illness. Such things like bdsm is a rape culture, and shaving your pubic region encourages pedophilia. These incredible grasps for there to be something heinously wrong when there isn't something so dramatic going on. The sexualized hulk not being what society thinks are the only things males have to offer a woman, but a sinister power fantasy that wants to brutally take and abuse women. It just comes off taking a problem, and making it far more dire and dramatic then it actually is. Not trying to insult of course, it just seems like that is a common line of logic with anti porn feminists. My point in the long run is, maybe when you hear hoof beats next time think horses, not zebras.

 

[phylline]

I disagree that they're all being portrayed the same way although I agree that they're all idealized. I simply feel uncomfortable with how the genders are idealized. I think, /in general/ (there are of course exceptions), women are sexualized in video games and men aren't so much, even though all genders (another topic for another day, trans* individuals are represented piss-poorly in games) are portrayed very unrealistically.

It all eventually comes back down to body types. Men have more testosterone than women which causes them to have heavier builds and be more aggressive.

And men are arguably sexualized more in games. It's hardly uncommon in games for the male to somehow lose their shirt, or constantly be wearing a shirt which shows their chest off for no reason at all. Whether you find them attractive is subjective, but they're all shown the same way.

Hell, in Devil May Cry Dante starts the game stark naked...

They do indeed, but I don't think that detracts from my point, could you please explain what you mean?

Ooh - that's very arguable! I'd argue the only reason women keep their shirt in video games is because they're more sexualised. Breasts are seen as inherently sexual so it would be too explicit to show them. Men's bodies, however, aren't seen as inherently sexual simply for existing so they may take off their shirt.

edit: Oh! My friend just linked me to the comic I was looking for in my first post here! http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/2011-12-02-sexy.png

Power fantasy argument... it's so damn hypocritical. Certainly there is context to be considered but... at the end of the day isn't the over sexualized male character just an unfair portrayal of the ideal male as much as the female character is? Can the arguments not be reversed? If not, then why? Is it just because there is a blanket acceptance that in any and all context whether consciously or subconsciously it was always intended by those who created it to be intended for a males benefit at the detriment to the females? Is there no middle ground? Is that comic a pedantic jab that paints every straight female as having a certain idealized male that is objectively an ideal image of sexually appealing to women, at a detriment to those who like big hunks?

At the end of the day there is NOTHING wrong with sexualized characters. There is nothing wrong with a character being a shameless slab of beef, or a walking pair of breasts, with the qualifier that not all characters be forced into this roll. The problem is the lack of proper and realistic characters, not the existence of the cheap and pandering. Things are not perfect right now, but you really can't say there isn't male objectification. There is. However there are a lot more worth while and deep multifaceted male characters, the female and that's something we need to be working towards. Oh well, said my piece I suppose.

Hi, you bring up a pretty interesting argument.

I've explained this before - both genders are idealized to hell and are utterly unrealistic. This could be a problem! I don't know. I don't know if the common big-muscled-masculine-power-trip character hurts men. It could. I'm not a man, so it's not my area and I don't know. It could be an issue and it could need changing, I'm definitely not arguing that these characters are okay or good (I'm a little uncomfortable about how everything needs to be hyper-masculine to be portrayed as powerful at the least).

I don't think designers make their characters intending to play women down. It's just the background noise of our culture, which is a shame, but I've already said I don't think video games are any more at fault than any other mainstream media. The thing I'm trying to say is, whilst the typical men in video-games (hyper-masculine big-muscled hulk) are portrayed really unrealistically (perhaps harmfully), they're not sexualised. Muscles signify physical strength and the ability to dominate - power. That's what muscles /do/. They have little to do with trying to pander to what women want (although they can represent the ability to "win" a woman, which is problematic). However, big boobs and buttocks with the perfect hourglass figure? In combat, it's not going to do much. It's purely there to objectify the female in question and place her firmly in the sexual sphere.

And you're right, every now and again, there's nothing wrong with a character being a "shameless slab of beef"! However, I find that incredibly distasteful and offensive, and seeing characters like that make me uncomfortable. Every now and again - fine, but I wouldn't like it. However, at the moment it's pretty common (although there are exceptions, I don't think they're the majority).

Why did I ever come to debate sexism on the escapist, it's an utter minefield...

I think your heart is in the right place, but perhaps your being oversensitive and putting too much value in the opinion of others. I also think that you may be dismissing the forest for the trees, in that if a character is in fact a good character, just having an idealized beautiful body doesn't detract from that unless directly contrary to the character's premise. I also don't get what you mean by hulks aren't sexualized. All those traits you offered are things that reinforce the gender roll of the protector. Males in society are seen as ideal if they can protect the family and being a super hunk implies strength not necessarily to dominate, but to protect the wife and children. Offering the stability of protection and power is seen as the ideal of what a man can bring to a woman therefore societal views of the idealized features of what a beautiful male looks like is the hunk or at the very least a tall strong man. Just like the hour glass frame and large breasts are considered signs of fertility and caring which are suppose to be what society has deemed as the ideal of what a woman can bring a man. These are just gender rolls seen through the ideal of beauty our culture has fostered over the centuries. Whats wrong with it is not necessarily that these ideals on beauty exist, but that often times they are acted upon which is what is problematic.

As a gay woman I can't tell you what I find attractive about a man. I can use logic to try and asses the cause of these views held by the culture, and by those who I've met and have more interactions with. I don't try and profess this as how every female should be thinking or how every male should be thinking like I've found many anti porn feminists seem to view anything regarding sexuality. They see any sexualized aspect of the human form as something that signifies a deep and depraved mental illness. Such things like bdsm is a rape culture, and shaving your pubic region encourages pedophilia. These incredible grasps for there to be something heinously wrong when there isn't something so dramatic going on. The sexualized hulk not being what society thinks are the only things males have to offer a woman, but a sinister power fantasy that wants to brutally take and abuse women. It just comes off taking a problem, and making it far more dire and dramatic then it actually is. Not trying to insult of course, it just seems like that is a common line of logic with anti porn feminists. My point in the long run is, maybe when you hear hoof beats next time think horses, not zebras.

Hey - I'd appreciate it if you didn't dismiss my opinion as "being oversensitive", nor do I see how I'm putting too much emphasis on other's opinions by taking the view that women are more sexualised in video games (and society). If we make this personal, I'm not willing to have this conversation with you, nor do I want any assumptions about my character being used in an argument.

I understand why you've made the leap from this point of view to sex-negative feminism, but this isn't what I'm discussing nor am I going to make any link there. I see mildly how it's relevant: but it'd be much more relevant to discuss women's representation in video games than go down the slippery road of porn too (...I can't figure out if that was a euphemism).

If you look in, say, women's magazines, I don't think "big strong hulk muscle man" is a type that is shown for women to idealise in a man. Flicking through, it does seem to be the "nice eyes" lean sort of thing. Either way, MASSIVE huge masculine men (as are the type in video games more often than not) aren't portrayed as something women should want. Whilst you're right about gender roles still being forced, I think it's much less about what it can do for the traditional family now - so I don't think big muscles mean sexualised men. In a video game, it's easy to see how big muscles can simply equal masculine power and the ability to physically dominate, as it would be directly useful in combat (something many video games revolve around). As I've said before though, big boobs and butts? Is squeezing out and feeding a baby easily going to kick the enemies ass? Not really. But what do they do? Give something for young teenagers to leer at. As said before - it's not that I don't think the idealization of hyper-masculine-man is a bad thing (it may well be), I just don't think it's an overtly sexual thing.

edit: As the poster below me said, I really think the muscled characters are there to make male gamers feel more powerful rather than to be shoved into a stereotype for the benefit of women (although they are shoved into a stereotype, but not /for women/). I think a lot of games are created either with a male audience in mind or by a male creator and I think that drips through.