Critics Ruin Video Games? ?Good!

[LordLundar]

While there is merit to the discussion and it should be explored in more detail by rational people on both sides, the author is not one of those people. Much like Sarkeesian's actions, there's a lot in that article that is meant to do little more than add fuel to the bonfire about the debate. This article is not meant to promote rational debate, it's instead meant to throw the industry on the defensive again and claim that it doesn't want to discuss the issue.

Both sides need to stop acting like petulant little children and start discussing things like rational adults. Opponents to this need to stop exaggerating things to make the industry seem worse than it is and the industry needs to stop huddling in the corner whenever confronted with rational discussion.

 

[Frostbite3789]

I don't recall at any point saying the trailer was sexist. You are the one who claimed "The hooker represents hedonism and anarchy. A "pleasure" girl showing off different aspects of human carnal desires of lust and envy," and all I said is that that interpretation sounds disturbing. I do think the tone of the trailer aswell as the dozen other things I've mentioned are pretty lazy and bad quality.

What do you want me to say? The news snippet is barely audible, the trailer makes no damn sense and the notion that I'm supposed to go away and do research after watching an advert is ludicrous. You are defending an advert that fails on every conceivable level to perform the functions expected of an advert and on top of that it has a truly disturbing ending shot.

...except that's not even the end of the trailer. You really didn't watch it. This is disgustingly funny. I'm not convinced you're not the dude who runs that site. Because you're making the EXACT same misinformed arguments. The site which has a few shock value articles, then half the front page stuff is him promoting his own art and some project on indiegogo.

After reading some of the 'essays'/articles, that site has one of the most misleading titles ever. He just complains and never puts forth a solution.

 

[Erttheking]

snip

I know I know, someone else already called me out on it. God, I seriously need to learn to keep my fucking mouth shut. Every time, EVERY FUCKING TIME I open it, what comes out amounts to solid waste.

 

[The Artificially Prolonged]

On the article itself it seemed to try and raise some good points but is dragged down by some blatant factual errors, out of context examples and a confrontational tone which make me question the intent of this article. I feel that this article may be trying to provoke an angry reaction rather than facilitate a discussion on the issue.

I reached the same conclusion and just couldn't finish it - I got halfway through it. Well it's either that or the author didn't make the effort to make his intentions clear. It would hint at pretty bad composition and writing skills.

Yeah the layout of the argument is quite poor, honestly it feels more rushed than anything. None the examples points are really fully explained, just mentioned in passing with a picture and the sub headings seemed to jump about a bit without any real flow. On the positive side the formatting on the charts looked quite nice, couldn't fathom the point of them but they where nice

 

[Best of the 3]

You guys are overthinking this. It doesn't matter if the cyborg chick is the villain or not, or that the cops are fascists or not.

The perspective of fictional characters does NOT represent the views of the creators. Disclaimers of that nature are fairly common for good reason it seems. This is FICTION afteral and complaining about the presence of evil in a fictional setting, is like complaining there's swastikas and nazis in a WW2 movie.
While fiction can go wrong, if it goes all political and the intended message is also backwards, at this point nothing suggests anything like that.

Just some shock value here. No big deal.
This stuff will probably sell and that's the bottom line.

This sexism in fiction complaint is one lost cause I don't mind seeing crashing against the cliffs.

I'm tired of people pretending that in the medium of videogames tone doesn't apply.

Well that's unfortunate for you, but unless you can prove some kind of sinister propaganda going on here, you won't get anywhere.
Boobs are allowed and boobs sell. You cannot fight this thing. Even if you boycott such games, there's a big enough audience that doesn't care or even loves this shit.

That's not what I'm talking about at all. Tone is just the emotions that the creator is trying to convey through stylistic choices.

Are you really trying to apply logic to games? To fantasy and imagination?

Spoiler: Trust

Spoiler: me

Spoiler: when

Spoiler: I

Spoiler: say

Spoiler: that

Spoiler: that'll

Spoiler: never

Spoiler: work

 

[JudgeGame]

I don't recall at any point saying the trailer was sexist. You are the one who claimed "The hooker represents hedonism and anarchy. A "pleasure" girl showing off different aspects of human carnal desires of lust and envy," and all I said is that that interpretation sounds disturbing. I do think the tone of the trailer aswell as the dozen other things I've mentioned are pretty lazy and bad quality.

What do you want me to say? The news snippet is barely audible, the trailer makes no damn sense and the notion that I'm supposed to go away and do research after watching an advert is ludicrous. You are defending an advert that fails on every conceivable level to perform the functions expected of an advert and on top of that it has a truly disturbing ending shot.

...except that's not even the end of the trailer. You really didn't watch it. This is disgustingly funny. I'm not convinced you're not the dude who runs that site. Because you're making the EXACT same misinformed arguments. The site which has a few shock value articles, then half the front page stuff is him promoting his own art and some project on indiegogo.

After reading some of the 'essays'/articles, that site has one of the most misleading titles ever. He just complains and never puts forth a solution.

Do you want a solution? Stop doing it. There.

 

[veloper]

You guys are overthinking this. It doesn't matter if the cyborg chick is the villain or not, or that the cops are fascists or not.

The perspective of fictional characters does NOT represent the views of the creators. Disclaimers of that nature are fairly common for good reason it seems. This is FICTION afteral and complaining about the presence of evil in a fictional setting, is like complaining there's swastikas and nazis in a WW2 movie.
While fiction can go wrong, if it goes all political and the intended message is also backwards, at this point nothing suggests anything like that.

Just some shock value here. No big deal.
This stuff will probably sell and that's the bottom line.

This sexism in fiction complaint is one lost cause I don't mind seeing crashing against the cliffs.

I'm tired of people pretending that in the medium of videogames tone doesn't apply.

Well that's unfortunate for you, but unless you can prove some kind of sinister propaganda going on here, you won't get anywhere.
Boobs are allowed and boobs sell. You cannot fight this thing. Even if you boycott such games, there's a big enough audience that doesn't care or even loves this shit.

That's not what I'm talking about at all. Tone is just the emotions that the creator is trying to convey through stylistic choices.

There's manga artists who draw tentacle rape scenes to intentionally convey sadistic power over young women and teenagers and they get away with that too. Not my thing, but there's even a niche for that shit.
This mild, titilating cyberpunk stuff is just mainstream advertisement.

Where it has no place in civil society, the forbidden thought finds it's home in the realm of fantasy. Gamers don't turn to videogames in search for conformity and morality. Games is where we can let ourselves go without harming anyone.

 

[Frostbite3789]

Do you want a solution? Stop doing it. There.

Stop doing bad game design? Oh...oh my god why didn't anyone think of this before? You sir are a genius, call every video game dev ever. The solution to 'bad game design' is to just stop doing it.

 

[Twilight_guy]

I tried to read the article. It's almost immediate venture from informative to emotionally charged and angry caused me to immediately discount it. I skimmed further down and what I saw only seemed to be an angry and misguided assault on a perceived injustice rather then anything worth reading. From reviewing other posts here, it doesn't look there was anything worth reading anyways.

 

[Frostbite3789]

Me too. I just cannot, for the life of me, understand the hype around it. Oh, it's a trailer that shows absolutely zero and almost no relevant or understandable gameplay. I'm just flooded with confidence. Hang on, I'm wrong to by cynical because it uses the word "cyberpunk". Well then, guess that proves me wrong! Srsly, wtf?

It's a new series from CD Projekt Red, the dev studio that brought us The Witcher series. And they're tackling an all new interesting looking setting.

That's why everyone is hyped. Research es #1 2muchard?

 

[DoPo]

Oh, it's a trailer that shows absolutely zero and almost no relevant or understandable gameplay. I'm just flooded with confidence. Hang on, I'm wrong to by cynical because it uses the word "cyberpunk". Well then, guess that proves me wrong! Srsly, wtf?

I wander why you used that "almost" there - it shows no gameplay at all...or at least I thought so. It's a teaser trailer plenty of games have gotten those - just a short "Snippet of our game - mostly art, though" from the devs. I don't think many teasers actually show much of...anything about the game - gameplay, graphics, story, nothing - at best you're hoping to see a main character or some of the setting.

 

[JudgeGame]

You guys are overthinking this. It doesn't matter if the cyborg chick is the villain or not, or that the cops are fascists or not.

The perspective of fictional characters does NOT represent the views of the creators. Disclaimers of that nature are fairly common for good reason it seems. This is FICTION afteral and complaining about the presence of evil in a fictional setting, is like complaining there's swastikas and nazis in a WW2 movie.
While fiction can go wrong, if it goes all political and the intended message is also backwards, at this point nothing suggests anything like that.

Just some shock value here. No big deal.
This stuff will probably sell and that's the bottom line.

This sexism in fiction complaint is one lost cause I don't mind seeing crashing against the cliffs.

I'm tired of people pretending that in the medium of videogames tone doesn't apply.

Well that's unfortunate for you, but unless you can prove some kind of sinister propaganda going on here, you won't get anywhere.
Boobs are allowed and boobs sell. You cannot fight this thing. Even if you boycott such games, there's a big enough audience that doesn't care or even loves this shit.

That's not what I'm talking about at all. Tone is just the emotions that the creator is trying to convey through stylistic choices.

There's manga artists who draw tentacle rape scenes to intentionally convey sadistic power over young women and teenagers and they get away with that too. Not my thing, but there's even a niche for that shit.
This mild, titilating cyberpunk stuff is just mainstream advertisement.

Where it has no place in civil society, the forbidden thought finds it's home in the realm of fantasy. Gamers don't turn to videogames in search for conformity and morality. Games is where we can let ourselves go without harming anyone.

I'm sorry I can't continue talking to you. You're creeping me out.

 

[JudgeGame]

Do you want a solution? Stop doing it. There.

Stop doing bad game design? Oh...oh my god why didn't anyone think of this before? You sir are a genius, call every video game dev ever. The solution to 'bad game design' is to just stop doing it.

I'm assuming that the "moaning" you are referring to are the criticisms of pervasive misogyny and racism in videogames. That isn't game design.

The articles that are strictly about game design contain very little "moaning".

 

[DoPo]

It's a new series from CD Projekt Red, the dev studio that brought us The Witcher series. And they're tackling an all new interesting looking setting.

While it may be interesting looking, it's not new at all - Cyberpunk as a game has been around for 25 years now, maybe not of the oldest RPGs but certainly not a new one. And it's based on largely cyberpunk literature - William Gibson, Bruce Sterling and several others authors who defined the genre about brilliant illegal hackers, faceless governments and large corporations, cybernetics running rampant and the like. Cyberpunk 2013 (and later 2020) just...continued the trend and applied it on the PnP games. Shadowrun probably has more fame but it's essentially the same in terms of cyberpunk, it just adds in magic and elves to the mix.

 

[veloper]

You guys are overthinking this. It doesn't matter if the cyborg chick is the villain or not, or that the cops are fascists or not.

The perspective of fictional characters does NOT represent the views of the creators. Disclaimers of that nature are fairly common for good reason it seems. This is FICTION afteral and complaining about the presence of evil in a fictional setting, is like complaining there's swastikas and nazis in a WW2 movie.
While fiction can go wrong, if it goes all political and the intended message is also backwards, at this point nothing suggests anything like that.

Just some shock value here. No big deal.
This stuff will probably sell and that's the bottom line.

This sexism in fiction complaint is one lost cause I don't mind seeing crashing against the cliffs.

I'm tired of people pretending that in the medium of videogames tone doesn't apply.

Well that's unfortunate for you, but unless you can prove some kind of sinister propaganda going on here, you won't get anywhere.
Boobs are allowed and boobs sell. You cannot fight this thing. Even if you boycott such games, there's a big enough audience that doesn't care or even loves this shit.

That's not what I'm talking about at all. Tone is just the emotions that the creator is trying to convey through stylistic choices.

There's manga artists who draw tentacle rape scenes to intentionally convey sadistic power over young women and teenagers and they get away with that too. Not my thing, but there's even a niche for that shit.
This mild, titilating cyberpunk stuff is just mainstream advertisement.

Where it has no place in civil society, the forbidden thought finds it's home in the realm of fantasy. Gamers don't turn to videogames in search for conformity and morality. Games is where we can let ourselves go without harming anyone.

I'm sorry I can't continue talking to you. You're creeping me out.

You lose the argument then.
Fetish porn simply exists; it's a simple fact and if that shocks you already, then prepare to live your life in a state of shock. I didn't even go into any detail here, nor did I praise the genre.

Seriously, you're already fighting a lost cause and you're not even putting up a proper fight.

 

[Sylveria]

Not really feeling it I got to say.

The devotion to Sarkeesian's drivel as well fighting up imaginary enemies is making it hard for me to take this as serious as the author intended. I am sorry when you start critiquing the Cyberpunk 2077 without any sort of understanding of what the trailer is portraying and then start using it as springboard for another Sexism argument I am going to stop listening.

What was cyberpunk 2077 portraying? I'm sorry, I don't get the damn trailer at all. The premise seems to be "people are getting a lot of implants, people with implants want to kill the meatbags, men in combat gear shooting half naked lady with impractical looking blades coming out of her arms and massive honking tits. Oh and her skin is bulletproof apparently." I'm sorry but what the flying fuck was going on in that trailer? Why did she have to be half naked? Why did she need the F cup?

Well you got the basics of the story right.

They got the story of Psycho's and the Psycho squad in visual representation as a nod to the people who are into the Cyberpunk 2077 setting. Essentially telling the story of a new hire for the Psycho Squad as well as showing what their job is.

The we go into the more symbolic representation. This stuff isn't as deep as it sounds. Essentially is it the basic premise of Chaos VS Order. The hooker represent hedonism and anarchy. A "pleasure" girl showing off different aspects of human carnal desires of lust and envy, and her augmentations showing human desires for everything from dominance and control to fear and the desire for safety. In the mean time we see the policeman in an uniform. His face is covered (half covered at least. Eyes gone, most important part. No eye's = no soul) representing ordered authority. "The Man" if you will. Meant as a symbol of conformity as well oppression. Finalized in the hooker becoming one of them, being "conformed" if you will.

The underlying message of the video is one that has been explored many times before in Sci Fi. If humans are given more or less free opportunity to indulge our every desire through technology we will show ugly sides of human nature, and our destructive and selfish tendencies. This is further enforced through the choice of music for the trailer.

That is what I see anyway.

Dude, that only makes it more disturbing. Executing a prostitute for her depraved ways is very touchy. It isn't cool. This isn't the kind of thing a normal person is supposed to be "hyped" over. It's a bunch of dudes killing a hooker because she's a slut. You seriously don't see why some people have a problem with that?

Did you not notice the pile of bloody corpses around the cyborg with blades dripping with crimson? I'm pretty sure she got executed for the mass murder, not cause she was a hookerbot-9000.

I'm not sure what you think hookers do, considering this is The Escapist and a concerning number of people in the forums seem outright terrified of even the idea that women even exist in fiction I wouldn't surprised if someone thought this was par for the course, but typically an encounter with an escort does not leave a trail of bloody corpses.

 

[Something Amyss]

I'm sorry but Anita

I'm curious as to how Anita has so much power over you that simply commenting on and observing sexism in action (correct or otherwise) can make your hobby unenjoyable. Does she beam directly into your brain when you play or something? Has she changed a single thing? Is she taking your games away or even trying to?

Is there some secret faction within the World Pony Order headed by Sarkeesian out to force you to pay attention to her or stop playing the titles you like?

Because I'm having trouble thinking of a real scenario where she could reasonably impact your enjoyment.

 

[Frostbite3789]

It's a new series from CD Projekt Red, the dev studio that brought us The Witcher series. And they're tackling an all new interesting looking setting.

While it may be interesting looking, it's not new at all - Cyberpunk as a game has been around for 25 years now, maybe not of the oldest RPGs but certainly not a new one. And it's based on largely cyberpunk literature - William Gibson, Bruce Sterling and several others authors who defined the genre about brilliant illegal hackers, faceless governments and large corporations, cybernetics running rampant and the like. Cyberpunk 2013 (and later 2020) just...continued the trend and applied it on the PnP games. Shadowrun probably has more fame but it's essentially the same in terms of cyberpunk, it just adds in magic and elves to the mix.

I meant more new for them. I know cyberpunk isn't new, but it certainly isn't a fantasy setting like The Witcher.

 

[kurokotetsu]

You are completely missing what is being said here

The fact that it is a hooker represents the carnal desire of lust. The make up and revealing dress represent envy.

She isn't being executed/conformed because she feels lust/envy. She is being executed/conformed acting upon base human desires in such a way that it is harmful to society. The policeman being a symbol of the authority of society. It is something we do in reality as well. it is the difference between the guy who looks at a hot babe and the guy who goes and rapes her. Both involves lust, yet lust isn't the crime here. Right here she has gone on a rampage killing multiple people. Why did she go on a rampage? Doesn't really matter. It is the fact that she felt like doing it and that technology enabled her.

You are completely misunderstanding everything I just said.

You going
Executing a prostitute for her depraved ways is very touchy.
make me think you are trying to lead the subject back in order to vindicate your sources failure to understand the subject matter that is being talked about.

Prostitute or not. If you are sitting on a pile of bodies wielding bloody weapons, who you are becomes completely irrelevant to the situation.

- she is a robot
- she just killed 14 civilians
- she is sitting in a pile of corpses with her arm scythes dripping with blood
- "the dudes" are clearly displayed as an enforcement agency, also clearly displayed it is not only men
Therefor we obviously must conclude she was hunted and killed because of her genitalia... obviously.

This is exactly why these discussions can't go anywhere, all sides immediately flip out the moment breasts are in play and then we just watch who can get more absurd with the arguments, or rather stupidity.
Yes there is some really dumb "sell sex" stuff going on in the industry, but when everyone cries wolf all the time these "discussions" are just mindless drivel only appropriate for 4chan and Fox News.

I'm willing to listen. I'm prepared to take your word that the prostitute did in fact kill a bunch of people. That information isn't relayed in the video. I assumed the people firing bullets at the corpses killed the corpses. In my opinion, they could have made the effort to make that clear to anyone who saw the ad. I suppose, if you have prior knowledge to the universe of Cyberpunk 2077 you wcould infer all that.

This is the same problem the article I linked was talking about. Instead of marketing their product at a large audience, they concentrate on a small group and marginalize everyone else. I'd be surprised if they even bothered screening this ad to a random audience to gauge their reaction.

If I am to accept that interpretation, it's terrible composition and real amateur directing. The first thing you see are the woman and the bullet hitting her. Next you see the police who are in formation for some reason even though she only just saw them. Next we see the bullets AND the bloodied corpses which would help us make a false association. Half-way into the video, we see the "scythes" which I didn't recognize as such. To be honest, I had no idea what they were supposed to be until you mentioned it. I could moan about how structurally unsound they look and how ineffective they would be as combat weapons but hey it's sci-fi so I would be prepared to meet the trailer half-way if it at least told me they were weapons. Finally, we see the policeman pointing a gun to the back of her skull, which doesn't make any sense since he's in the line of fire but if we just ignore that it still looks pretty disturbing and not the kind of thing I would find exciting or epic. To most people it's just a bunch of fascist cops executing some random woman war lord style, all in beautifully rendered slo-mo cam so we know it is awesome.

I really can't see why anyone thought it was this scene that would sell the game, I would have chosen something more action-y, less morally compromising.

I had no previous knowledge of Cyberpunk universe and the "killer robot interpretation" was pretty evident to me. There is even a news cut about a "massacre", the arms are clearly sharp and dripping blood. It is very stylish (with the execution and the slo-mo) but it is really clear what is happening by watching it. And even the execution can be argued as part of a cliffhanger about the whole situation. Really, I don't see the point of critique against the trailer. ANd hey, it made me excited for the game, and I didn't know the previous IP.

 

[JudgeGame]

Not really feeling it I got to say.

The devotion to Sarkeesian's drivel as well fighting up imaginary enemies is making it hard for me to take this as serious as the author intended. I am sorry when you start critiquing the Cyberpunk 2077 without any sort of understanding of what the trailer is portraying and then start using it as springboard for another Sexism argument I am going to stop listening.

What was cyberpunk 2077 portraying? I'm sorry, I don't get the damn trailer at all. The premise seems to be "people are getting a lot of implants, people with implants want to kill the meatbags, men in combat gear shooting half naked lady with impractical looking blades coming out of her arms and massive honking tits. Oh and her skin is bulletproof apparently." I'm sorry but what the flying fuck was going on in that trailer? Why did she have to be half naked? Why did she need the F cup?

Well you got the basics of the story right.

They got the story of Psycho's and the Psycho squad in visual representation as a nod to the people who are into the Cyberpunk 2077 setting. Essentially telling the story of a new hire for the Psycho Squad as well as showing what their job is.

The we go into the more symbolic representation. This stuff isn't as deep as it sounds. Essentially is it the basic premise of Chaos VS Order. The hooker represent hedonism and anarchy. A "pleasure" girl showing off different aspects of human carnal desires of lust and envy, and her augmentations showing human desires for everything from dominance and control to fear and the desire for safety. In the mean time we see the policeman in an uniform. His face is covered (half covered at least. Eyes gone, most important part. No eye's = no soul) representing ordered authority. "The Man" if you will. Meant as a symbol of conformity as well oppression. Finalized in the hooker becoming one of them, being "conformed" if you will.

The underlying message of the video is one that has been explored many times before in Sci Fi. If humans are given more or less free opportunity to indulge our every desire through technology we will show ugly sides of human nature, and our destructive and selfish tendencies. This is further enforced through the choice of music for the trailer.

That is what I see anyway.

Dude, that only makes it more disturbing. Executing a prostitute for her depraved ways is very touchy. It isn't cool. This isn't the kind of thing a normal person is supposed to be "hyped" over. It's a bunch of dudes killing a hooker because she's a slut. You seriously don't see why some people have a problem with that?

Did you not notice the pile of bloody corpses around the cyborg with blades dripping with crimson? I'm pretty sure she got executed for the mass murder, not cause she was a hookerbot-9000.

I'm not sure what you think hookers do, considering this is The Escapist and a concerning number of people in the forums seem outright terrified of even the idea that women even exist in fiction I wouldn't surprised if someone thought this was par for the course, but typically an encounter with an escort does not leave a trail of bloody corpses.

My! You arrived late to the party, didn't you? lol