Critics Ruin Video Games? ?Good!

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Guys in games like War from Darksiders or Marcus Fenix are there to make male gamers feel powerful not be attractive to women. A build like Loki or Nightwing is more attractive to women. Hence Loki having more fangirls than Thor

Observe

If you think that someone created for example Kratos with the thought of making him sexy you are very much mistaken.

I find the dead island bust offensive (and I'm not the only one [http://www.giantbomb.com/news/eight-women-eight-responses-and-one-dead-island-riptide-statue/4527/]) not only because it dehumanises a woman down to her strangely untouched and perfect breasts but because it also suggests all gamers, who might enjoy dead island, are men. I'm not.

 

[The Material Sheep]

Night

snip

Guys in games like War from Darksiders or Marcus Fenix are there to make male gamers feel powerful not be attractive to women. A build like Loki or Nightwing is more attractive to women. Hence Loki having more fangirls than Thor

Observe

If you think that someone created for example Kratos with the thought of making him sexy you are very much mistaken.

Nightwing and Loki don't look like that at all? They're a slimmer build sure but they are still tall and athletic with clearly masculine features. I mean they aren't out of a Boris Vellejo painting but they are very idealized. That picture I can see making people uncomfortable because it's a man with feminine features which can give an uncanny valley feeling to people. Just like seeing an overly muscular person or a woman who has ridiculously sized breasts. They're off putting because they're so starkly separated from anything resembling reality not because you can make a legitimate case that the male character feels objectified. I also no plenty of women who thought Thor was incredibly attractive... anecdotal at best but still.

And to the poster above that because I can't figure out how to do quotes.

I see your point that the Marcus Fenix like peoples in games are just hyper masculine roid rage self insert I'm awesome types. However I do see a lot of that changing at least to some degree. Nathan Drake, any of the male party members from DA2, Thane and like Moonlight said Nightwing. Female oriented eye candy is making its way the world as the gaming industry struggles to comprehend that female gamers are much larger demographic to appeal to then they originally though. I do however want amend my points from before though. Male power fantasy stuff is similarly demeaning to males, as the cross the board over sexualization of female characters is to women. However I will concede that the male power fantasy is not sexual objectification. So I think to a point we agree!

Also I meant no offense at my assessment that there may be a bit of oversensitivity in your posts. It was not my intent to insult, so if you were insulted I am sorry for that. I was attempting and possibly failing to point out that like many anti porn feminists attribute disgusting mental disorders and depravities as the real reason behind kinks and cultural idealism. I was comparing the labeling of male power fantasy in game as a means for males to feel like they dominate and control women. I think it's as simple as games catering to men in that they want to be the hero, and heroes are generally scene as big and masculine. Protectors not dominating household tyrants. In my likely poorly worded point I just don't know if things are that malicious, but that they just overly favor men instead of appealing to both. Once again... really not trying to offend.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Nightwing and Loki don't look like that at all? They're a slimmer build sure but they are still tall and athletic with clearly masculine features. I mean they aren't out of a Boris Vellejo painting but they are very idealized. That picture I can see making people uncomfortable because it's a man with feminine features which can give an uncanny valley feeling to people. Just like seeing an overly muscular person or a woman who has ridiculously sized breasts. They're off putting because they're so starkly separated from anything resembling reality not because you can make a legitimate case that the male character feels objectified. I also no plenty of women who thought Thor was incredibly attractive... anecdotal at best but still.

As the comic says they are more built for dexterity than impossibly muscled hulks. They are as you say eye candy for women. Said impossibly muscled hulks aren't aimed at women. They are there for men to feel powerful.

The Batman drawing in the comic shows what a majority of women do like to an extreme extent. Nice eyes a slender build and softer features.

It's false equivalence, you can't say games characters like War or Kratos are aimed at women because they just aren't, it's a nonsensical argument.

Spoiler: This is the character Glory as a sexualised fantasy for guys

Spoiler: This is the same character as a power fantasy for women. (and how she is drawn now).

Maybe that will help you see the difference better.

 

[The Material Sheep]

Nightwing and Loki don't look like that at all? They're a slimmer build sure but they are still tall and athletic with clearly masculine features. I mean they aren't out of a Boris Vellejo painting but they are very idealized. That picture I can see making people uncomfortable because it's a man with feminine features which can give an uncanny valley feeling to people. Just like seeing an overly muscular person or a woman who has ridiculously sized breasts. They're off putting because they're so starkly separated from anything resembling reality not because you can make a legitimate case that the male character feels objectified. I also no plenty of women who thought Thor was incredibly attractive... anecdotal at best but still.

As the comic says they are more built for dexterity than impossibly muscled hulks. They are as you say eye candy for women. Said impossibly muscled hulks aren't aimed at women. They are there for men to feel powerful.

The Batman drawing in the comic shows what a majority of women do like to an extreme extent. Nice eyes a slender build and softer features.

It's false equivalence, you can't say games characters like War or Kratos are aimed at women because they just aren't, it's a nonsensical argument.

Spoiler: This is the character Glory as a sexualised fantasy for guys

Spoiler: This is the same character as a power fantasy for women. (and how she is drawn now).

Maybe that will help you see the difference better.

I never claimed War or Kratos were ever such a thing. Kratos is a psychopathic killer who's entire design is that of unabashed and remorseless rage. Everything about his design... at least in the first game is a man of incredible might and incredible terror. There is no power fantasy in that. He's a character with a clearly designed character and premise, at least in the first game. I don't think anyone gets jollies from "being" kratos. Most of my comments apply to the first game however... can't say much for the other two.

War is just massive study in the rule of cool. His design conveys nothing but this artist didn't want to stop stapling things on to guy thinking that every addition would add just as much "cool" as the last. He also shows like... no skin and is completely unreasonably proportioned. Uriel is similarly designed so I don't know what your complaining about exactly with that game. Uriel at least has an attractive face so I suppose she has that over War. Then again I'd say Azreal has reasonably attractive face as well, and a less macho hulk build. Hell I dislike just about all of Darksider's art design.

Though if you wanted a real example for your point, I would have gone with Marcus Fenix and just about everything to do with the Gears of War games. That's a prime example.


And concerning the picture of that comic book character? I don't know about you, but I don't think I have any power fantasy about being as birly and huge as that woman. Then again I don't have any fantasy about being the former either. I simply ask for something reflective the norm for the female body which like it or not is a variation of the hour glass frame. It's how the majority of female bodies are built to an extent. The second picture of the woman is not a female frame, it's a male one. Shoulders are far too broad in relation to the waistline for it to be anywhere representative of even just an average female who's hulked up.
At least idealized straight female attraction to males is attraction to a slim and athletic male frame. Nightwing in particular is very masculine figure, just not the hulk or Marcus Fenix. Why are female visions of a power fantasy just hulk males with bigger boobs and lips? Sorry just seemed like an awkward comparison.

 

[Naqel]

The article did not have me impressed, despite having a few good points.

In the end though, video games are still just a product targeting at a specific audience, accommodating whatever flaws and desires it can exploit.
Nothing outside of the usual, just applied to something we care about more than shampoos and dog/cat food.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

And concerning the picture of that comic book character? I don't know about you, but I don't think I have any power fantasy about being as birly and huge as that woman. Then again I don't have any fantasy about being the former either. I simply ask for something reflective the norm for the female body which like it or not is a variation of the hour glass frame. It's how the majority of female bodies are built to an extent. The second picture of the woman is not a female frame, it's a male one. Shoulders are far too broad in relation to the waistline for it to be anywhere representative of even just an average female who's hulked up.
At least idealized straight female attraction to males is attraction to a slim and athletic male frame. Nightwing in particular is very masculine figure, just not the hulk or Marcus Fenix. Why are female visions of a power fantasy just hulk males with bigger boobs and lips? Sorry just seemed like an awkward comparison.

Well Glory's superpowers are related to strength. She is also half demon half amazon it makes sense that she would have big muscles. I can't see that the sexy version makes any sense at all even putting aside Liefield's random attention to anatomy...

Spoiler: If you want a more regular looking superheroine that is a good female power fantasy try Princess Amethyst.

 

[The Material Sheep]

And concerning the picture of that comic book character? I don't know about you, but I don't think I have any power fantasy about being as birly and huge as that woman. Then again I don't have any fantasy about being the former either. I simply ask for something reflective the norm for the female body which like it or not is a variation of the hour glass frame. It's how the majority of female bodies are built to an extent. The second picture of the woman is not a female frame, it's a male one. Shoulders are far too broad in relation to the waistline for it to be anywhere representative of even just an average female who's hulked up.
At least idealized straight female attraction to males is attraction to a slim and athletic male frame. Nightwing in particular is very masculine figure, just not the hulk or Marcus Fenix. Why are female visions of a power fantasy just hulk males with bigger boobs and lips? Sorry just seemed like an awkward comparison.

Well Glory's superpowers are related to strength. She is also half demon half amazon it makes sense that she would have big muscles. I can't see that the sexy version makes any sense at all even putting aside Liefield's random attention to anatomy...

Spoiler: If you want a more regular looking superheroine that is a good female power fantasy try Princess Amethyst.

You can have a female frame and have muscles they aren't mutually exclusive. That character was built like a line backer. The vast majority don't look anymore like that then the first picture you showed me which had the pair of breasts holding a sword. The comic you just showed though looked reasonably harmless. The women are all reasonably proportioned and not intently focused on the characters as females. They also are clearly females. So yeah that last one wasn't bad .

 

[Deviluk]

I don't understand why men and women can't feel the same way about characters in games AND movies. We all see our respective sexes at their very, fake best and get sad because we compare ourselves to them. But at the same time we enjoy seeing the opposite sex in just that way. I make games and the women who I work with talk about how sexy this character is, and that one, and they like having sex appeal in a main character, its another thing that draws you to someone you've just met. As long as you then appreciate the character for their personality as well.

 

[Piorn]

I don't know if you heard it, but there is a pretty big "sexism scandal" in germany, that is literally all about a politician telling a journalist that she looks nice in a dress. That's it. Think about that.
That's something I'd expect from a cartoon, not real, educated adults.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I don't understand why men and women can't feel the same way about characters in games AND movies. We all see our respective sexes at their very, fake best and get sad because we compare ourselves to them. But at the same time we enjoy seeing the opposite sex in just that way. I make games and the women who I work with talk about how sexy this character is, and that one, and they like having sex appeal in a main character, its another thing that draws you to someone you've just met. As long as you then appreciate the character for their personality as well.

Because it's hard for some women to take really sexed up female characters seriously. Same for men I'd imagine from some reactions I've seen for things like Twilight and various fanfiction involving male characters.

As I showed earlier with pics of Glory and Amara there's a difference between being attractive and being ridiculously over sexualised.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I don't know if you heard it, but there is a pretty big "sexism scandal" in germany, that is literally all about a politician telling a journalist that she looks nice in a dress. That's it. Think about that.
That's something I'd expect from a cartoon, not real, educated adults.

actually he told her she would 'fill out' a Bavarian blouse well. That's kind of an inappropriate thing to say to another professional person. He didn't just say she 'looked nice'.

Also it had brought to light that sexism is pretty rife in Germany.

 

[Piorn]

I don't know if you heard it, but there is a pretty big "sexism scandal" in germany, that is literally all about a politician telling a journalist that she looks nice in a dress. That's it. Think about that.
That's something I'd expect from a cartoon, not real, educated adults.

actually he told her she would 'fill out' a Bavarian blouse well. That's kind of an inappropriate thing to say to another professional person. He didn't just say she 'looked nice'.

Also it had brought to light that sexism is pretty rife in Germany.

I'm sorry, I have to admit it's rather hard to find the original story between all the ...other stuff, especially when you don't look that hard. But I still think it's an important thing to talk about.
Just because you offended a single person doesn't mean you're sexist. Discussing this makes the entire sexism debate seem trivial. If I don't like a person, I should be able to insult that person, and if I find a person attractive, I should be able to tell that, regardless of the gender of that person.
AND that person can then love or hate me for what I said to her, NOT for my, or that person's gender!
You can call him unprofessional or tactless, but it takes more to be sexist than one inconsiderate remark.

 

[veloper]

The article did not have me impressed, despite having a few good points.

In the end though, video games are still just a product targeting at a specific audience, accommodating whatever flaws and desires it can exploit.
Nothing outside of the usual, just applied to something we care about more than shampoos and dog/cat food.

Very concise.
/thread-worthy, but let's not get optimistic. We all love to be trolled around here.

 

[Uriain]

Couldn't be bothered to finish reading it, but from what i've gathered, it spews the same kind of nonsence, overly hysterical "GAEMS R TEH SEXIST" annoying crap I've seen a lot of times, in fact, it's worse than a lot of the things I've seen, because those things actually have some form of logical reasoning behind it.

I wouldn't really call the view of women in some of gaming development and it's fanbases exactly ideal, but you really need to understand the difference between sexism, misoginy, and inexperience.

Calling things liek the new Lara Croft or the Cyberpunk 2077 trailer sexist is about as grounded in reality as calling Django Unchained racist, which is to say, none at all. Seriously, this is just getting absurd, yes, the situation is far from ideal, but these wannabe-GAEM-JURNALISTS are seriously far of from the point, creating distance between teh general population and normal, common-senced wantingness for equality, something that is really natural.

Articles like this and trolls like Sarkeesian however, are just pure nonsence with nothing to contribute but illogical misguided whining.

Your first comment really dictates the level of quality your post can contain. If you cannot be bothered to read the entire article, why shoot off with an "off the cuff" remark about (to use your words) "GAEMS R TEH SEXIST". Not only does it make you look ridiculous, but the points you bring up are terribly brought across and make it seem like you are exactly the type of person this article (and others like it) are talking about.

Let's address a couple of the points here.

There is a fairly strong sexist/racist/homophobic segment of the gaming community, anytime you go online or hit the forums and you will see the amount of hate/racism/sexism/homophobic that really happens. That's not a point that can be contested. So the writer of this article has that piece of information correct. I DO however with you that there needs to be understanding in the things you are writing about. Your points on the perception/knowledge on the subject when people talk about them is quite valid, and one that I feel is the biggest issue when discussing these topics in general.

On the other hand, I feel that everyone should be able to SEE the possibility for sexism, racism, etc within games as some of the content we enjoy and consume is, frankly, pretty weakly veiled as entertainment. A common classic(and apt I might add) offender is DoA. The series has been a fighting Juggernaut for quite a while, but over the past couple of iterations the "Boob physics" and costume choices (or lack their off) has gotten more attention from both the development team and the public, than the fighting engine/mechanics. I personally don't mind, as I have not played DoA since 3 for these reasons, but I fully see how some could consider this to be sexist, regardless if "it's designed to be like that".

Lastly here, to quote your last line:

"Articles like this and trolls like Sarkeesian however, are just pure nonsense with nothing to contribute but illogical misguided whining"

I think this is a really closed minded thing to say. Not because it particularly attacks this article or its writer, or attacks Sarkeesian, but because you assume that they are "whining" as some sort ill-gotten grudge or hate against the industry, and by proxy, the people who enjoy it. If you cannot concede to the fact that other could see the things we play as a community COULD be considered sexist/racist/homophobic etc, then you are not giving the chance for a actual conversation to take place, with people who are actually trying to change the way outsiders look in.

**after re-reading this, I sound like kind of a dick, but I feel the point I am trying to make was made, so sorry for sounding like a dick

 

[WitherVoice]

They didn't look like blades at all, let alone weapons. It just looked like her arms had begun to break apart from the volley of shots she just received from the police.

Let's have a vote on that one. To me, they clearly looked like large, slice-and-dice implements extended from a hidden position.

 

[PrinceOfShapeir]

Nightwing and Loki don't look like that at all? They're a slimmer build sure but they are still tall and athletic with clearly masculine features. I mean they aren't out of a Boris Vellejo painting but they are very idealized. That picture I can see making people uncomfortable because it's a man with feminine features which can give an uncanny valley feeling to people. Just like seeing an overly muscular person or a woman who has ridiculously sized breasts. They're off putting because they're so starkly separated from anything resembling reality not because you can make a legitimate case that the male character feels objectified. I also no plenty of women who thought Thor was incredibly attractive... anecdotal at best but still.

As the comic says they are more built for dexterity than impossibly muscled hulks. They are as you say eye candy for women. Said impossibly muscled hulks aren't aimed at women. They are there for men to feel powerful.

The Batman drawing in the comic shows what a majority of women do like to an extreme extent. Nice eyes a slender build and softer features.

It's false equivalence, you can't say games characters like War or Kratos are aimed at women because they just aren't, it's a nonsensical argument.

Spoiler: This is the character Glory as a sexualised fantasy for guys

Spoiler: This is the same character as a power fantasy for women. (and how she is drawn now).

Maybe that will help you see the difference better.

Oh, cheap shot! Come on, don't break out Rob Liefeld! That's just not fair. It was the nineties, we're sorry! We didn't understand!

 

[Vault101]

There's rumors that the rape scene from Laura Croft 2013 has been removed from the game. There was literally 0 reason to do so except that a bunch of extremist groups preyed on the stupidity and laziness of the masses in order to mischaracterize it as an actual issue. What I lose out of the whole arrangement is a possibly crucial piece of character development in her character arc that may seriously effect the impact of the story, even if they manage to shoehorn in some other conflict to replace it.

THERE IS NO RAPE SCENE...as far as I know

this kind of shit pisses me off to no end (not you that is)

it was a few fucking seconds from a trailer and everyone gets whiped up into a frenzy ERMAGERD RAPE SCENE!!! without stopping to think about the contenxt or what they actuallsaw in the fucking trailer (which was not rape, it was a guy who gets a bit too close for comfort...makes sense in context)

Oh, cheap shot! Come on, don't break out Rob Liefeld! That's just not fair. It was the nineties, we're sorry! We didn't understand!

I have to agree...I dont know who Liefelds unique brand of anatomy is for....but its not for most people

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Oh, cheap shot! Come on, don't break out Rob Liefeld! That's just not fair. It was the nineties, we're sorry! We didn't understand!

There are plenty of examples of disregard anatomy , acquire sexy from todays comics.

Spoiler: the original pic is when she has her butt on your left...anatomy how does it work

Just check out the Escher girls blog if you want to see more boobs and butt based ridiculousness...

 

[The Material Sheep]

lol... just checked out Escher Girl. Oh god the spines... they're BEING TWISTED INTO HORRIBLE NIGHTMARE CREATURES!

dear lord... save me from the hideous aliens disguising themselves as women...

I suppose more on topic. I'm okay with sexy women, because I find sexy women appealing. So long as it makes sense in the context and doesn't break my suspension of disbelief with it's bone/spine breaking impossible poses, and COMPLETELY over top revealing outfits/proportions. My qualifications however don't apply to the vast majority of characters so I suppose they don't really mean much.

 

[Smeatza]

I always find it amusing how anti-sex feminists perpetuate gender role myths with there whole "this has been sexualised for males and not for females" bit.

Aren't we all individuals? How can you say that a character has been sexualised for men? Do individual men not all have different tastes? Are there not women out there that will prefer the "male" sexualisation?

I hear people say "no that is not sexualised for women (talking about Conan the Barbarian, a comic book character, whatever)" yet I know quite a few women that adore the bodybuilder figure and can't stand skinny or regular guys.

It seems to me that it's mostly people saying "I don't personally like this and I am (insert gender here) so this must discriminate against my gender."

Also that Batman comic kind of discredit's it's own point by having the "female version" of Batman look exactly the same as regular batman but with different lips.