Current Systemic Issues in the Anime Industry and Community

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Izanagi009

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So this thread went places while I was grinding Blitz on granblue versus all day yesterday alright (got 100 draw tickets at the end of it, woo~).


So, lets try to see why the argument doesn't make sense.

One side says Uzaki is mentally too immature to be as hot as people see her as. Meaning, mental maturity is what defines whether you're adult or not, even if your body is hot if you're like Robin Williams in that one film, that's still being a child.

Ok, got it.


So why, then, if Tatsumaki is 28 mentally, and she very much is that, is it bad that her body looks young? Are midgets also supposed to be eternal virgins because they will never grow tall?

This is the issue with this argument people have. You have the one side (lets call it the kittie side for no reason whatsoever!) where it's all about the mentality, then once you go on to adhere to that side you have the other side which just focuses on the body of the character.

The problem is, you, the body people, you are NOT coming to our defense when a char with a mature body is being maligned. You sit in silence, like a judgy ninja, waiting for the chance where a counterpoint to the kittie side is made, and you pounce at the 28 year old that just appearance-wise looks young.

So...which is it? Aren't people only into it for the boobs? If so why would they even like Tatsumaki? Are they...maybe not just into it for the boobs? So then, why would they like Uzaki? Do you see how this doesn't make sense? There's a fundamental contradiction with this logic. The answer is that both judgy groups are totally wrong in their assessments in general.


I deem such a state of affairs as one that is in bad faith. The right course of action is to wholly ignore all this and just have fun.


(also, to clarify, the best part about Tatsumaki is not her looks, it's her voice, she is voiced by Aoi Yuuki, she also does Futaba in p5 and Madoka and a bunch of awesome chars)
To just have fun is disingenuous and ignorant in my mind. We are people with critical minds and the ability to analyze.

The main nuance missing in this is the question of intent. Characters, as i stated, aren't born fully formed from the ether. They are made by human hands for a purpose or reason. While yes, it is presumptuous of me and others to assume absolute malice in the purpose of Tatsumaki's and Uzaki's creation, to just narrow the argument people have to "body or mind" inherently misses the rest of the arguments made about what the author intended with the designs or personality.

Intent is the issue, not just simply the body or the mind
 

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Edit: I will say that personally, using developmental disabilities as a defense isn't a good look. in almost every case, there is a distinct difference between "an adult with a developmental issue" and "a child character with oversized breasts stuck on" or "a child looking character said to be of a certain age".
A developmental disability is the closest real-life thing to Tatsumaki's case, until humans start performing unethical experimentation on little girls that causes their body to stop aging.


But what you said about characters being fully-formed made me think of something.

I've said this before but, would it be okay to be attracted to a picture of Uzaki without knowing anything about her personality?

Would it be okay to be attracted to Tatsumaki only with the knowledge of her age, before her "stopped aging" origins were revealed?

How much of a background check does one need to do on a fictional character before one can be "allowed" to find them attractive?

The detractors won't answer these difficult questions.

In real life, grown men, if given nothing but a picture of a girl, may find the girl attractive. When told their age, they may change their answer because they know that they shouldn't be attracted to a minor. That doesn't change their true feelings. That's just just biology and social standards conflicting.

It's okay to say "I'd like to, but I wouldn't" y'know.
Even Shinji called Tatsumaki sexy.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I really like One Punch Man, but that's giving it too much credit. This is the same manga that has a gay character represented as someone who assaults men, cuz you know, he's gay. It's Japan being Japan.
*grumble*
Yeah, I know. I was mostly trying to convince myself. Hopefully Mob stays good
 
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lil devils x

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Why do you keep trying to throw mumbler and lil devil quotes at me? Are you so bad at debate that you're having to turn to your enemies for arguments?

For the record, I like both of them, but we're not some ideological block just because we disagree with you. I'm sure the three of us disagree about all sorts of things. And that's fine, because neither of them seem like a danger to children.
He keeps trolling me trying to make me take him off ignore so he can troll me more and he thinks he is making everyone fight among themselves but doesn't realize no one is actually fighting here and it is all just in his head because most of us can have disagreements and all still get along pretty well regardless.

 
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fOx

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More like my enemies are fighting amongst themselves now, all I have to do is sit back and watch.
Oh. Ok.

Like Dreiko said, you remain silent when somebody says "the mind is important, not the body", and they remain silent when somebody says "the body is important, not the mind", and both of you care more about sticking it to the weebs than you do having a consistent position that you stand behind, which is indicative of bad faith.
I haven't really been trying to stick it to the weebs at all in this thread. I've barely discussed anime as a medium at all. The only thing I really mentioned was lollis, at which point you tried to make this about real world people. I think this was tactical error. You were on safer ground when you tried to make this about drawings. At this point your just making things up. You've accused me of trying to flex on the weebs for liking anime. You've tried to tell me I support eugenics. You keep grasping as straws because you don't have any actual argument to make, and your floundering. Because you want to try and make this about every topic in the world, except the one you know you can't win.

That It's immoral for adults to be attracted to underage people.
 
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Izanagi009

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A developmental disability is the closest real-life thing to Tatsumaki's case, until humans start performing unethical experimentation on little girls that causes their body to stop aging.


But what you said about characters being fully-formed made me think of something.

I've said this before but, would it be okay to be attracted to a picture of Uzaki without knowing anything about her personality?

Would it be okay to be attracted to Tatsumaki only with the knowledge of her age, before her "stopped aging" origins were revealed?

How much of a background check does one need to do on a fictional character before one can be "allowed" to find them attractive?

The detractors won't answer these difficult questions.

In real life, grown men, if given nothing but a picture of a girl, may find the girl attractive. When told their age, they may change their answer because they know that they shouldn't be attracted to a minor. That doesn't change their true feelings. That's just just biology and social standards conflicting.

It's okay to say "I'd like to, but I wouldn't" y'know.
Even Shinji called Tatsumaki sexy.
Yes, information changes things but while we can feel something from a biological sense, we are humans. We have a mind that can go above the id of biological desire.

As such, if one gains information, one should modify and adjust their feelings as needed.
 

fOx

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He keeps trolling me trying to make me take him off ignore so he can troll me more and he thinks he is making everyone fight among themselves but doesn't realize no one is actually fighting here and it is all just in his head because most of us can have disagreements and all still get along pretty well regardless.

Yeah, he seems to think he's playing 4d chess, but it's not going too well.
 
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Casual Shinji

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*grumble*
Yeah, I know. I was mostly trying to convince myself. Hopefully Mob stays good
Well, One Punch Man is still good, it's just that certain aspects are a little iffy.

I think Berserk is one of the best things I've ever read, but there's still things about it that make me shake my head. Like how Slan is the only female Godhand, so ofcourse she's sexy. And how her being evil/disturbing is represented by her being horny, because a woman being horny is intimidating and unnatural, I guess. And then there's Caska, the only prominent female character, who only really serves to be a love interest.
 

fOx

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Well, One Punch Man is still good, it's just that certain aspects are a little iffy.

I think Berserk is one of the best things I've ever read, but there's still things about it that make me shake my head. Like how Slan is the only female Godhand, so ofcourse she's sexy. And how her being evil/disturbing is represented by her being horny, because a woman being horny is intimidating and unnatural, I guess. And then there's Caska, the only prominent female character, who only really serves to be a love interest.
What, you weren't impressed by the scene where caska apologizes to the entire army for having her period, and then all the soldiers laugh while guts slaps her on the ass?

For the record, berserk is one of my all time favorite stories, but boy did the manga have some iffy moments.
 

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Well, One Punch Man is still good, it's just that certain aspects are a little iffy.

I think Berserk is one of the best things I've ever read, but there's still things about it that make me shake my head. Like how Slan is the only female Godhand, so ofcourse she's sexy. And how her being evil/disturbing is represented by her being horny, because a woman being horny is intimidating and unnatural, I guess. And then there's Caska, the only prominent female character, who only really serves to be a love interest.
Have you not read Berserk past the golden age arc? Cause Caska is old news and the main female chars are Farnese and Shierke, have been so for the last 20~ years too.

What, you weren't impressed by the scene where caska apologizes to the entire army for having her period, and then all the soldiers laugh while guts slaps her on the ass?

For the record, berserk is one of my all time favorite stories, but boy did the manga have some iffy moments.
Caska's early story arc is being the one woman in the entire band of mercenaries and having to deal with being a woman in a world of men, having to try and keep up with the men despite being weaker, so yeah, in that context, having to sit out a fight and potentially endanger the lives of your comrades is indeed something you'd apologize over. There's literally nothing odd about that unless you're looking for her to be treated special compared to how any other guy would be treated for being unable to participate.

To just have fun is disingenuous and ignorant in my mind. We are people with critical minds and the ability to analyze.

The main nuance missing in this is the question of intent. Characters, as i stated, aren't born fully formed from the ether. They are made by human hands for a purpose or reason. While yes, it is presumptuous of me and others to assume absolute malice in the purpose of Tatsumaki's and Uzaki's creation, to just narrow the argument people have to "body or mind" inherently misses the rest of the arguments made about what the author intended with the designs or personality.

Intent is the issue, not just simply the body or the mind
A critical mind is what I just displayed the use of in determining those issues as being arguments made in bad faith for the reasons I explained already and to dismiss them and have fun is the only recourse because they shouldn't get to rob us of our positivity. I don't care what people who behave as I describe have to say and it isn't uncritical to dismiss it. I just judged it critically and it came wanting.

The intent is already addressed. These chars are cute by being how they are, and cuteness is a multifaceted component that can but doesn't necessarily have sexual aspects to it, but which to limit the analysis of to just the hypothetical presence of those aspects, to the exclusion of all else, is in bad faith and does not warrant the ruination of one's enjoyment.

Being critical doesn't mean that any dumb thing anyone comes up is accurate or fits just because it falls in the category of utterances known as "criticism" and to dismiss idiotic criticism isn't to be uncritical. If anything, to accept without any justification or thought random dumb criticism is what the unthinking do.
 

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What, you weren't impressed by the scene where caska apologizes to the entire army for having her period, and then all the soldiers laugh while guts slaps her on the ass?

For the record, berserk is one of my all time favorite stories, but boy did the manga have some iffy moments.
Yeah..... ugh.

And that after that she loses her steely demeaner and becomes all of a sudden more girly. Or that we get two scenarios where she gets almost raped, ripped clothes and everything. Or that when Guts returns after that one year she tries to kill herself by throwing herself of a cliff. Like what the fuck was that about? If those rumors about a Netflix show are true I hope they atleast fix Caska.
 

fOx

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Have you not read Berserk past the golden age arc? Cause Caska is old news and the main female chars are Farnese and Shierke, have been so for the last 20~ years too.


Caska's early story arc is being the one woman in the entire band of mercenaries and having to deal with being a woman in a world of men, having to try and keep up with the men despite being weaker, so yeah, in that context, having to sit out a fight and potentially endanger the lives of your comrades is indeed something you'd apologize over. There's literally nothing odd about that unless you're looking for her to be treated special compared to how any other guy would be treated for being unable to participate.


A critical mind is what I just displayed the use of in determining those issues as being arguments made in bad faith for the reasons I explained already and to dismiss them and have fun is the only recourse because they shouldn't get to rob us of our positivity. I don't care what people who behave as I describe have to say and it isn't uncritical to dismiss it. I just judged it critically and it came wanting.

The intent is already addressed. These chars are cute by being how they are, and cuteness is a multifaceted component that can but doesn't necessarily have sexual aspects to it, but which to limit the analysis of to just the hypothetical presence of those aspects, to the exclusion of all else, is in bad faith and does not warrant the ruination of one's enjoyment.

Being critical doesn't mean that any dumb thing anyone comes up is accurate or fits just because it falls in the category of utterances known as "criticism" and to dismiss idiotic criticism isn't to be uncritical. If anything, to accept without any justification or thought random dumb criticism is what the unthinking do.
Hmm, true. The scene where casks get her clothes ripped off by a giant penis monster, and spends the entire battle buck ass naked, except for her boots and gloves, was actually a delicate social commentary on the treatment of women in the middle ages.
 

fOx

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But what you said about characters being fully-formed made me think of something.

I've said this before but, would it be okay to be attracted to a picture of Uzaki without knowing anything about her personality?

Would it be okay to be attracted to Tatsumaki only with the knowledge of her age, before her "stopped aging" origins were revealed?

How much of a background check does one need to do on a fictional character before one can be "allowed" to find them attractive?

The detractors won't answer these difficult questions.
Oh, hey, I can answer that! It's actually quite simple! If they look like children, and you know nothing about them, except that you find them sexually attractive, then you're definitely a pedophile.

In real life, grown men, if given nothing but a picture of a girl, may find the girl attractive. When told their age, they may change their answer because they know that they shouldn't be attracted to a minor. That doesn't change their true feelings. That's just just biology and social standards conflicting.

It's okay to say "I'd like to, but I wouldn't" y'know.
Even Shinji called Tatsumaki sexy.
Yeah, that means that they're pedophiles.
 

09philj

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Well, One Punch Man is still good, it's just that certain aspects are a little iffy.

I think Berserk is one of the best things I've ever read, but there's still things about it that make me shake my head. Like how Slan is the only female Godhand, so ofcourse she's sexy. And how her being evil/disturbing is represented by her being horny, because a woman being horny is intimidating and unnatural, I guess. And then there's Caska, the only prominent female character, who only really serves to be a love interest.
And Miura just loooooves sexual violence or the threat thereof as a plot device, or demonstration that a character is evil, or just for shock value. The "if in doubt, stick some rape in it" school of writing dark and gritty fiction, which is pretty prevalent in the west as well, especially post Game of Thrones, is very grating.
 
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fOx

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And Miura just loooooves sexual violence or the threat thereof as a plot device, or demonstration that a character is evil, or just for shock value. The "if in doubt, stick some rape in it" school of writing dark and gritty fiction, which is pretty prevalent in the west as well, especially post Game of Thrones, is very grating.
the weirdest part of that is that he actually handled the subject really well with guts. you get to see how is impacted his interactions with other people, his ability to have romantic relationships, his need to feel safe, his ptsd... it's superbly written. and yet, we then get some oafish depiction of rape as drama device five seconds later. It was always there to some extent, but I noticed it got much, much worse after golden age ended.
 

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And Miura just loooooves sexual violence or the threat thereof as a plot device, or demonstration that a character is evil, or just for shock value. The "if in doubt, stick some rape in it" school of writing dark and gritty fiction, which is pretty prevalent in the west as well, especially post Game of Thrones, is very grating.
Honestly, I had little issue with that through most of the story. It deals with hardcore demons which means shit will generally get really, realy nasty. In the Black Swordsman and Golden Age arc there's not even that much there, untill near the end. With Caska it really bugged me in both cases where it's used as a threat, because suddenly she just became a rape magnet. But in the case of Guts at age nine and Caska during the Eclipse I was "fine" with it since it actually impacted the characters - it wasn't just used as a quick shock. Same could be said for princess Charlotte.

I think the only time where I was, like, 'Okay, was that REALLY necessary' was when Wyld comes across that family of farmers that had just helped out Griffith. And you get two scenes of a really horrific sexual nature back-to-back, when I feel only the latter should've sufficed to get to point across as to how awful Wyld and his crew are.

It has been a while since I read Berserk though, and as I'm reading through it again currently I am extremely annoyed by how Caska is written, more so than I ever was. So my opinion on how the sexual violence is presented might've changed for the worse as well.
 

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the weirdest part of that is that he actually handled the subject really well with guts. you get to see how is impacted his interactions with other people, his ability to have romantic relationships, his need to feel safe, his ptsd... it's superbly written. and yet, we then get some oafish depiction of rape as drama device five seconds later. It was always there to some extent, but I noticed it got much, much worse after golden age ended.
Ah, yes, who can forget about Rape Horse. And the trolls. And the evil Faeries doing their "adult attack" or whatever it was called. And Wyald and his gang, twice. Tho he's gotten better at it over time. I don't remember anything with rapey vibes after the Kushan arc.
 

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That It's immoral for adults to be attracted to underage people.
It's wrong to be sexually attracted to people who look like children. There. It's actually quite simple.

You're contradicting yourself again. Which is it? Is Tatsumaki okay because she's not underage, or is she not okay because she looks like a child? Make up your mind.

As such, if one gains information, one should modify and adjust their feelings as needed.
I doubt that such a thing is even possible.

In one of those Law and Order or "Criminal Minds", or one of those other shows, there was a segment where they tested an adult by showing them a picture of a girl and then revealing that girls age, then they would ask if he found her attractive. All the while they were watching his face for markers of attraction. Dilated pupils, flushed cheeks, and that sort of thing. He ended up being attracted to a 17-year-old and they called him out on it. They said that it was okay. That it was completely normal. He said "no", but his body said "yes". They didn't arrest him or call him a pedophile.

That's an example from fiction, but I'm willing to bet that it's based on fact. You can't just turn off your body based on what you "know" in your brain.
You can't avoid salivating when you smell food that belongs to someone else.

Now, acting on those biological urges is a completely different topic, but we're not talking about that. We're just talking about attraction.

I bet that if I tested people in this topic by showing them pictures of 17 or 18-year-olds and asked them "hot or not?" they would end up calling themselves pedophiles, by their own standards, but they'd never participate in good faith.
 

fOx

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You're contradicting yourself again. Which is it? Is Tatsumaki okay because she's not underage, or is she not okay because she looks like a child? Make up your mind.
What are you talking about? In both cases I said it's wrong to be attracted to underage bodies? Can you read?
 

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What are you talking about? In both cases I said it's wrong to be attracted to underage bodies? Can you read?
Read your words again. Carefully.

"That It's immoral for adults to be attracted to underage people."

Here you say that the person must be underage.

" It's wrong to be sexually attracted to people who look like children."

Here you say that the person needs to only APPEAR underage.

So which is it? Is it about age or appearance?
 
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