Current Systemic Issues in the Anime Industry and Community

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Dreiko

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I forgot, do senzu beans grow back tails? Or is that just resurrection that does that?

But Yamcha still has that scar on his cheek.
Tails are a thing that regenerates only during a saiyan's youth, so if he loses it past a certain age then his body forgets how to regrow it so at that point they can't get a tail any more. Also you can't be an SSJ with a tail and after becoming one it also won't grow back, so Trunks and Goten who were born SSJ never had one. Though presumably future Trunks did.

And scars are just cosmetic, the tissue underneath it would be repaired.
 
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First one I will point is is related to the Uzaki thing: Skewed and socially dissonant ideals of women.
There is something called "burikko", which is a woman trying to act cute by speaking in a fake, childlike voice. You'll see this in anime, idols, vloggers, and unfortunately people irl.

I don't know what anime you enjoy, but you've probably seen the MC do something perverted, usually by accident, and then get the living shit kicked out of him. I'm pretty sure I've seen more females sexually harassing males, especially in adult comedies. Ironically the males forcing themselves on submissive females are more likely to be found in shoujo manga.

the second point i will rely is dependent on Hiroki Azuma's database theory with regards to otaku culture. The basic tenet is that instead of grand narratives, otaku focus on the collection of tropes and traits from a "database".
I though grand narratives aka meta-narratives were wrong therefore bad. The choice here is deluding yourself with a mass lie, or deluding yourself with your own personal fantasy. Pick your poison.


This has the side effect, imo, of artistic stagnation and an over-focus on the self gratification of hte audience over cultural progression.

Regardless, I wanted to get this out because, man, anime itself feels like it's a snake swallowing it's tail, or an isolated island ecosystem that will die out, a "Galapagos Island Effect" as it were
This sounds like the "otaku are killing anime" meme, which is usually comes with the ulterior motive of trying to sanitize anime. Pandering to otaku is more like a survival strategy for the anime industry in a 30 year recession. Without otaku, the industry would shrink into nothing but the money makers, daytime television and children's toys. I'll take borderline hentai with some good shows mixed in, rather than none of it at all.

Also, masterpieces tend to be underfunded and or have terrible sales, so they are more niche then the supposed "niche audience". This is of course a generalization and depends on your definition of masterpiece, but look at the sales numbers for Monogatari or Fate compared to Shin Sekai Yori or Penguindrum.
 

ObsidianJones

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That just made him kind and not aggressive. It didn't really cause him brain damage as much as undo the programming he had been subjected to in his pod while flying to earth. We see this because other saiyans are similarly-tempered to Goku and I doubt we can assume they all fell on their heads as kids or had to go through reformation kicking and screaming like Vegeta. The universe 6 girls are a prime example of this.

Also he's literally died a bunch of times and eaten senzu beans but he hasn't changed at all. Senzu beans would have healed any supposed brain damage he had as well as being revived by the DBs.
There are limitations. Senzu beans do not reverse aging. Senzu beans were said exactly not to work on the heart virus that Goku had. Senzu beans have rejuvenation prosperities, but not miracle fix everything powers.

Effectively, if the beans worked like you said, they would have healed Goku to being a typical saiyan warrior and he would have destroy the planet.
 

Specter Von Baren

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@Dreiko @Houseman

How many times do we have to tell people to fuck off before they get the message?

It's ok if you don't like something we do. Just go on with your life and ignore us, we're used to that response. You can call us names and insult us as much as you want, hell, we'll join in and make fun of us too, but stop trying to change something you have no interest in now nor would have any interest in if you were to change it how you want it to be.
 

Dreiko

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@Dreiko @Houseman

How many times do we have to tell people to fuck off before they get the message?

It's ok if you don't like something we do. Just go on with your life and ignore us, we're used to that response. You can call us names and insult us as much as you want, hell, we'll join in and make fun of us too, but stop trying to change something you have no interest in now nor would have any interest in if you were to change it how you want it to be.
Nah I am not even saying that, I honestly kinda welcome the debate if it's in good faith because I feel I am fully defensible in my position even if others vigorously disagree, and I think that having these discussions helps push that message further.

Instead of telling people to get lost I just rather thoroughly debunk them. Who knows, maybe someone will take a second look at his opinions.

There are limitations. Senzu beans do not reverse aging. Senzu beans were said exactly not to work on the heart virus that Goku had. Senzu beans have rejuvenation prosperities, but not miracle fix everything powers.

Effectively, if the beans worked like you said, they would have healed Goku to being a typical saiyan warrior and he would have destroy the planet.
The senzu basically speeds up the rate at which your body heals by itself and presumably your body would heal brain damage if given enough time. A disease you have no antibodies for or something the body forgot to heal (or simply aging) are outside that spectrum.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Nah I am not even saying that, I honestly kinda welcome the debate if it's in good faith because I feel I am fully defensible in my position even if others vigorously disagree, and I think that having these discussions helps push that message further.

Instead of telling people to get lost I just rather thoroughly debunk them. Who knows, maybe someone will take a second look at his opinions.
We've had the debate so many times though. The hypocrisy kind of pisses me off. When anime was still considered a niche interest no one cared, even if they still thought the same things, it's only now that it's far bigger that their "principles" come up and they want to change it. And it's not even things like the tentacle rape hentai or vaginas with teeth, or super gorey anime where people get their heads lopped off in graphic detail, no, it's a slice of life romcom.

I know you're right but I just want to vent. Now I watch a cute robot girl dance.

 

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Uzaki is just identity politics. And is only really a problem when 1. Someone pretends that actual females should act like that. 2. They use this identity to exclude all other identities.
 

09philj

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Also, masterpieces tend to be underfunded and or have terrible sales, so they are more niche then the supposed "niche audience". This is of course a generalization and depends on your definition of masterpiece, but look at the sales numbers for Monogatari or Fate compared to Shin Sekai Yori or Penguindrum.
Anime generally functions on exploitation cinema rules, so things that don't pander to a particular audience's sensibilities don't tend to do very well, but conversely you can stick well known crowdpleasers like cute girls or hyperkinetic action or giant robots into your weird art film and this will give it a much better chance of landing an audience. Monogatari and Fate are both pretty good examples of this, as are Madoka Magica and FLCL, but the ultimate instance is, of course, Evangelion.
 

Jarrito3002

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That just made him kind and not aggressive. It didn't really cause him brain damage as much as undo the programming he had been subjected to in his pod while flying to earth. We see this because other saiyans are similarly-tempered to Goku and I doubt we can assume they all fell on their heads as kids or had to go through reformation kicking and screaming like Vegeta. The universe 6 girls are a prime example of this.

Also he's literally died a bunch of times and eaten senzu beans but he hasn't changed at all. Senzu beans would have healed any supposed brain damage he had as well as being revived by the DBs.
You are thinking about this too hard and also not thinking bigger. Goku apparently didn't know what kissing was last I checked. The joke being the Goku has never kissed Chi Chi despite them having 2 kids together. I don't it meant Goku didn't what sex is but to me its funnier that Goku has never kissed Chi Chi but got her to bare him 2 kids in my very fucked up sense of humor.
 

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So if we're talking about weird fixations in the anime industry, they do seem to have like a very strange fixation on innocence and purity which I honestly just don't mind, if I admit it I do watch a lot of "Moe" stuff, mostly because I can kinda relate to those stories more than others, I've mentioned it a few times but I'm asexual, I guess, so these kind of characters do help with kinda seeing myself in the story.

So while I do get that to some degree it's the fetishisation of innocence and childishness, it's not like there are really many characters that are asexual and while I do understand that it's like better than having nothing, like honestly these kinds of characters react much more like I do to everyday life than most others, for example why I think Evangelion is really interesting, but I personally find that whole journey of sexual discovery in teenage life which is a very big part of the show to be completely alienating, and like I'm watching the whole thing from a completely outsider point of view, and while that is fine I don't find many characters in things I like to be very relatable at all, I do think most of us do enjoy the act of seeing oneself in a character every now and then.

Anyways, like I mentioned in the thread that got closed I used to have Kumiko Oumae from Hibike! Euphonium as my avatar for a few years, the reason for that is that I found her to be extremely relatable and at the time pretty much the closest a character had been to my personality, to the point of her having pretty similar reactions to me when I went through similar situations, and her lack of interest in romantic or sexual relationships was a big part of that.
Same thing when I saw Yagate Kimi Ni Naru, with Yuu Koito, though I feel she being unable to feel romance was a much more explicit part of the story and a lot of the agonising she does over it as well as getting into a relationship because she wanted to feel that thing she can't feel are also things I find quite relatable, of course with her the relationship does end up working out, can't say the same thing happened to me.

Anyways, I guess like that's a way to put a positive spin into one aspect of anime culture that is often maligned because of gender politics utilising sexuality politics, or whatever you want to call it.
 
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Specter Von Baren

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So if we're talking about weird fixations in the anime industry, they do seem to have like a very strange fixation on innocence and purity which I honestly just don't mind, if I admit it I do watch a lot of "Moe" stuff, mostly because I can kinda relate to those stories more than others, I've mentioned it a few times but I'm asexual, I guess, so these kind of characters do help with kinda seeing myself in the story.

So while I do get that to some degree it's the fetishisation of innocence and childishness, it's not like there are really many characters that are asexual and while I do understand that it's like better than having nothing, like honestly these kinds of characters react much more like I do to everyday life than most others, for example why I think Evangelion is really interesting, but I personally find that whole journey of sexual discovery in teenage life which is a very big part of the show to be completely alienating, and like I'm watching the whole thing from a completely outsider point of view, and while that is for I don't find many characters in things I like to be very relatable at all, I do think most of us do enjoy the act of seeing oneself in a character every now and then.

Anyways, like I mentioned in the thread that got closed I used to have Kumiko Oumae from Hibike! Euphonium as my avatar for a few years, the reason for that is that I found her to be extremely relatable and at the time pretty much the closest a character had been to my personality, to the point of her having pretty similar reactions to me when I went through similar situations, and her lack of interest in romantic or sexual relationships was a big part of that.
Same thing when I saw Yagate Kimi Ni Naru, with Yuu Koito, though I feel she being unable to feel romance was a much more explicit part of the story and a lot of the agonising she does over it as well as getting into a relationship because she wanted to feel that thing she can't feel are also things I find quite relatable, of course with her the relationship does end up working out, can't say the same thing happened to me.

Anyways, I guess like that's a way to put a positive spin into one aspect of anime culture that is often maligned because of gender politics utilising sexuality politics, or whatever you want to call it.
Yeah, same reason I have Fegor as my avatar. A fairly lazy character that doesn't want to get involved unless it's a "someone has to" kind of situation. Just wants to ultimately be left alone so long as everything's working and people aren't in danger and cares about her family and stand up in righteous indignation when they put themselves in harms way.
 

Izanagi009

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I suppose i best reply to stuff

-Yes, when the medium was smaller, i didn't have these issues. But I have also grown older and found stuff to be irritating at this point. After a firm exposure to the best the medium has to offer as well as the best of film, I find the majority of anime to be stale even by the standards of crowd pleasing mass production shows

-men being beaten by women, women being ogled by men, honestly gender doesn't matter. the tropes are overused even within the idea of a trope collection phenomena.

-why are grand narratives wrong? cultures have meta narratives all the time and it's a matter of decontructing and recontructing over and over until we refine them

-I find the assertion that autism leads to being an anime fan overly reductive but whatever

Regardless, I still hold that the medium is unbalanced in the amount of grand narrative and cultural provocative works compared to the amount of overly tropey database style shows out there. I feel that for the sake of having the medium progress culturally, critical analysis is needed of the shows we watch. What i've said is what i believe.

I will acknowledge my thought process is cold in a sense, focused less on my own self enjoyment and more on overall social trends as well as focused on the idea of "tearing everything apart and putting it back together". I still feel though that critical thought and a desire for better will help the medium
 
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Dreiko

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I suppose i best reply to stuff

-Yes, when the medium was smaller, i didn't have these issues. But I have also grown older and found stuff to be irritating at this point. After a firm exposure to the best the medium has to offer as well as the best of film, I find the majority of anime to be stale even by the standards of crowd pleasing mass production shows

-men being beaten by women, women being ogled by men, honestly gender doesn't matter. the tropes are overused even within the idea of a trope collection phenomena.

-why are grand narratives wrong? cultures have meta narratives all the time and it's a matter of decontructing and recontructing over and over until we refine them

-I find the assertion that autism leads to being an anime fan overly reductive but whatever

Regardless, I still hold that the medium is unbalanced in the amount of grand narrative and cultural provocative works compared to the amount of overly tropey database style shows out there. I feel that for the sake of having the medium progress culturally, critical analysis is needed of the shows we watch. What i've said is what i believe.

I will acknowledge my thought process is cold in a sense, focused less on my own self enjoyment and more on overall social trends as well as focused on the idea of "tearing everything apart and putting it back together". I still feel though that critical thought and a desire for better will help the medium
So, while I accept that you're trying to be critical with a good motive in your heart, you have to acknowledge that what we have to contend with often is people who are clicking their tongues in disgust while being all Karen-like in their pearl clutching and entitlement of another country's cultural and artistic expression, because it personally bothers them.

My stance overall about what you describe is "I like anime as it is now, I liked how it was back in the 80s, I'd still like it if it became more like how you describe, too".


You do NOT need to condemn or drag down the present state to advocate for one which you'd prefer. You can be positive about it and yet still say this would be EVEN BETTER if it was more like how you want it to be.

That is the right approach here in my book. (also I think the autism thing was a joke XD)
 

Gyrobot

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Anime generally functions on exploitation cinema rules, so things that don't pander to a particular audience's sensibilities don't tend to do very well, but conversely you can stick well known crowdpleasers like cute girls or hyperkinetic action or giant robots into your weird art film and this will give it a much better chance of landing an audience. Monogatari and Fate are both pretty good examples of this, as are Madoka Magica and FLCL, but the ultimate instance is, of course, Evangelion.
Tony Stark: Finally someone who speaks my language.

I definitely agree with you on this. Anime has always catered to the exploitation cinema rules that modern cinema has all but abandoned for more sensible forms of marketing. They are not concerned with trying to be presentable like what we are seeing now with more appropriate depictions of LGBTQ+ or social issues that is only touched on. And you are right on how things don't panders or as some critics call "woke" won't sell well, which is a shame because at least over here you got companies willing to risk experimenting at the expense of their fanbase.

Things started to shift a bit with the newest isekai craze, a lot of the more trashier works that isn't outright hentai have more carnal male leads with implied or outright sex as far as the publisher would allow it.
 

Dreiko

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Tony Stark: Finally someone who speaks my language.

I definitely agree with you on this. Anime has always catered to the exploitation cinema rules that modern cinema has all but abandoned for more sensible forms of marketing. They are not concerned with trying to be presentable like what we are seeing now with more appropriate depictions of LGBTQ+ or social issues that is only touched on. And you are right on how things don't panders or as some critics call "woke" won't sell well, which is a shame because at least over here you got companies willing to risk experimenting at the expense of their fanbase.



Things started to shift a bit with the newest isekai craze, a lot of the more trashier works that isn't outright hentai have more carnal male leads with implied or outright sex as far as the publisher would allow it.
I love how you're describing being loyal to your fanbase and not some random external body that you owe nothing to and not compromising your vision to be "presentable" (see, this is the Karen thing, see, see, do you see @Izanagi009 XD) with a tone that makes it sound like it's supposed to be a bad thing.

Are you gonna complain about the fact that watching anime makes your dick twice as big and it causes you to need to spend money on new underwear next? Does it make you so rich that you can't fit all your money in your house too?

If supporting a cause is just something you do because it's the only way to be presentable, breaking news, you aren't supporting a cause, you're being oppressed by it. Also, you're not really even capable of supporting it, you're just acting out the optics of supporting it to suit your convenience. Support given at the barrel of a social reject gun is no real support of any kind.
 

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So, while I accept that you're trying to be critical with a good motive in your heart, you have to acknowledge that what we have to contend with often is people who are clicking their tongues in disgust while being all Karen-like in their pearl clutching and entitlement of another country's cultural and artistic expression, because it personally bothers them.

My stance overall about what you describe is "I like anime as it is now, I liked how it was back in the 80s, I'd still like it if it became more like how you describe, too".


You do NOT need to condemn or drag down the present state to advocate for one which you'd prefer. You can be positive about it and yet still say this would be EVEN BETTER if it was more like how you want it to be.

That is the right approach here in my book. (also I think the autism thing was a joke XD)
So what about the Japanese women who vent about it in their own groups and to other women, but are afraid to do so due to being afraid of being attacked publicly or condemned for speaking up in the first place? From what I understand is that most Japanese women do not like the sexism in Anime but due to the way " speaking up" in their culture is viewed, they are afraid to address it publicly. " Telling another culture" isn't quite right, it isn't like everyone in Japan likes Anime. I have heard people tell me they like their " old anime" better or what western anime fans refer to as "cartoons" because westerners are the only ones who seem to think Anime are not cartoons or something. The reality is their preferences are as varied as everyone else. Women in Japan often feel the same way about it as women elsewhere, women in Japan can also profit from it as well as women elsewhere as well, when there is money to be made people are often willing to put whatever other issues they may have aside to profit as well. What about the pedophiles who have told people they were introduced to this through Anime and what do you think should be done to address that?

Is your reference of "culture" just to those who think it is okay to fetishize innocence and child like qualities and enjoy to participate in that community" or the Japanese culture itself?
 
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fOx

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the second point i will rely is dependent on Hiroki Azuma's database theory with regards to otaku culture. The basic tenet is that instead of grand narratives, otaku focus on the collection of tropes and traits from a "database". This is supported in recent years by the repetition of tropes within the isekai genre. This has the side effect, imo, of artistic stagnation and an over-focus on the self gratification of hte audience over cultural progression.
You hit the nail on the head. The genre depends on a handful of tropes, which are, themselves, typically just fetishes inserted into various anime series. The result is a medium of creators that only take inspiration from other anime creators. The medium becomes incestuous and, artistically, dies.

The best animators in the industry did not take their inspiration from other anime series. Miyazaki, Satoshi Kon, and Isao Takahata were more inspired by history, literature, and their own life experiences then they were by anime. Even when they mention film inspirations, they typically round off a list of classical films going back decades. Their films said something about japanese society. Something that mattered. Even Hideaki Anno, who is, by all accounts a massive anime fan, used his struggle with depression, his suicidal tendencies, his history of parental abuse, and his research into psychology and philosophy as inspiration for his anime deconstruction, Neon Genesis Evangelion. The point is, these people looked outside of the anime industry for inspiration, in order to say something that mattered.

Unfortunately, over the years, this has changed more and more. Most anime isn't interested in saying anything at all. They are interested into appealing to otaku fetishes in order sale figures and blu-rays. If the men listed above are the Alan Moore's of anime, then modern anime creators and their fans are undeniably the Rob Liefelds.

@Dreiko @Houseman

How many times do we have to tell people to fuck off before they get the message?

It's ok if you don't like something we do. Just go on with your life and ignore us, we're used to that response. You can call us names and insult us as much as you want, hell, we'll join in and make fun of us too, but stop trying to change something you have no interest in now nor would have any interest in if you were to change it how you want it to be.
It's funny that everyone here thinks that I hate anime. In truth, I probably like anime more then anyone here. What I don't like is fetishistic anime that tells weebs and otaku that it's okay not to grow, and improve, and live. That they should live in darkness, given over to their basist instincts, their one source of serotonin. Until even that dries up, and ceases to make them happy. I'll stand with the people who are, or were, masters in their industry. Who elevated the entire medium to a higher art form.

“It's produced by humans who can't stand looking at other humans.” “And that's why the industry is full of otaku!” -miyazaki

“As for the previous Evangelion, many people took what I made as ‘entertainment’ and turned it into a ‘target of dependence.’ I wanted to take responsibility for those people becoming impudent. I wanted to bring the work back to the level of entertainment. However, I’ve started to pull back from that subject (criticizing ‘escapist otaku.’) Those kind of people don’t understand, no matter what you say. I finally realized there’s nothing you can do.” - anno
 

Dreiko

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So what about the Japanese women who vent about it in their own groups and to other women, but are afraid to do so due to being afraid of being attacked publicly or condemned for speaking up in the first place? From what I understand is that most Japanese women do not like the sexism in Anime but due to the way " speaking up" in their culture is viewed, they are afraid to address it publicly. " Telling another culture" isn't quite right, it isn't like everyone in Japan likes Anime. I have heard people tell me they like their " old anime" better or what western anime fans refer to as "cartoons" because westerners are the only ones who seem to think Anime are not cartoons or something. The reality is their preferences are as varied as everyone else. Women in Japan often feel the same way about it as women elsewhere, women in Japan can also profit from it as well as women elsewhere as well, when there is money to be made people are often willing to put whatever other issues they may have aside to profit as well. What about the pedophiles who have told people they were introduced to this through Anime?
That's an overbroad generalization. I've read and watched tons of shows/manga drawn and animated and aimed at a primarily female audience (I adore Clamp), they're just as raunchy too. Also a lot more of their raunchy themes revolve around incest or age gaps (with the girl being the young party, and this is something by women for women).

The more serious female fans are called Fujoshi and even have their own genres that are mainly catering to them, they revolve around gay dudes and stuff. They call it BL or boylove. They most certainly have no general issues like the ones you're describing. Individual women may feel a certain way but that's just that one person's opinion and not a broad issue.

Anime is Japanese animation, "cartoon" has this americann-ish nuance to it. In Japan anime just means anything animated, outside of Japan anime means Japanese animation. You just think of everything animated as a cartoon because of american-bias. As someone who comes from a third country into this equation it's easier to differentiate the two because neither was made where I grew up yet I was VERY capable of telling anime and cartoons apart ever since I was a very young child. Around age 5.
 

Gyrobot

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??????????????????????????????????
You know, being called "woke" because they would rather focus on positive forms of marketing rather than relying on cheap pandering that has consumed the industry in a nihilistic approach to marketing.

So what about the Japanese women who vent about it in their own groups and to other women, but are afraid to do so due to being afraid of being attacked publicly or condemned for speaking up in the first place? From what I understand is that most Japanese women do not like the sexism in Anime but due to the way " speaking up" in their culture is viewed, they are afraid to address it publicly. " Telling another culture" isn't quite right, it isn't like everyone in Japan likes Anime. I have heard people tell me they like their " old anime" better or what western anime fans refer to as "cartoons" because westerners are the only ones who seem to think Anime are not cartoons or something. The reality is their preferences are as varied as everyone else. Women in Japan often feel the same way about it as women elsewhere, women in Japan can also profit from it as well as women elsewhere as well, when there is money to be made people are often willing to put whatever other issues they may have aside to profit as well. What about the pedophiles who have told people they were introduced to this through Anime and what do you think should be done to address that?

Is your reference of "culture" just to those who think it is okay to fetishize innocence and child like qualities and enjoy to participate in that community" or the Japanese culture itself?
Not just pedophiles, but a fanbase that the creative heads over here intentionally alienates the fanbase in hopes of aiming for better things and hope the audience embraces it. Even as the peanut gallery cries of "go woke, go broke"
 
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