Cyberpunk 2077 Review thread - Umm....

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 28, 2017
11,161
5,658
118
Women characters of such a narrow swath of permissible body types, visual designs, attitudes, beliefs, and available dialog choices,
How is that any different than the male characters that follow the same attitudes, body types, visual designs, etc etc etc. It's called power fantasy for a reason and it doesn't matter the sex of the avatar the player is controlling.

That's true equality if you ask me. If the standard male character has to be a hunk of a man in perfect six-pack ab shape. Then it's only fair that the women also have the be the pinnacle of attractiveness. Right? Isn't that equal?
 

BrawlMan

Lover of beat'em ups.
Legacy
Mar 10, 2016
28,961
12,078
118
Detroit, Michigan
Country
United States of America
Gender
Male
I mean i wont defend the buttholling. But you gotta figure that at least some of that was due to Anita's own behavior. Not from her Feminist cries about how female characters are protrayed, but the fact that almost everything she said about video games was a fucking lie. Proven with context within the game's she was criticizing herself.

Gamers are an easily angry bunch and nothing riles them up more than spreading lies and misinformation strictly designed to demonized their favorite hobby. Which is what Anita did.

I think her harassment would have been far more diminished if she had presented reasonable, well researched, arguments. Yet her whole campaign appears to have been designed from the get-go to bring about as much abuse as possible towards her so that she can turn around and use that harassments as leverage for her entire career. She is smart as fuck in that regard. I have a hard time believing that she just genuinely wanted to report on video games with no further motives. I think she knew exactly what the response would be and marketed it as such in order to create fame for herself. And it worked.
While I agree that she brought a lot of it on herself and that most things were untrue. There is appropriate reaction, and then there is going overboard and setting off a hissy fit nuke.

Her "plan" did work, but it was a pyhric victory. Sarkesian lost lots of followers due to false promises and all that kickstarter money she received going nowhere. Mainly in her personal pocket. Nearly everyone's forgotten about her aside from the upper places of game journalism that are trying to keep the "her fight alive" and those who hate her that much. Most of the public's already forgotten she's existed. Good riddance.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 28, 2017
11,161
5,658
118
I don't mean to disrespect your list, you've listed a bunch of female protagonists from about the early-90's to 2013. But how many games were released in that time period? Far, far more then on your list. Even if we allow for half of all games to be create-your-PC, multiple character choice (ie. Diablo, Resident Evil 1/2), fighting games and games in which the game mechanics doesn't require a protagonist (Tetris, Solitaire etc.) we are still talking an overwhelming majority of games in which you play a (white) dude.

Steam (https://www.statista.com/statistics/552623/number-games-released-steam/) had 3000 games or so on the platform in 2014 and to that we must add 700 Nintendo games (a bit less admittedly, since some of those were released after 2014) and 1447 PS3 games (plus maybe another hundred PS4 games or so for 2014). So that's about 4000 unique games, conservatively estimated, which leaves us 2000 with a single protagonist. Is your list composed of anywhere near 1000 female protagonists? Because that'd be an even split. I count 15 female protagonists on your list. If we really tried we could maybe get into the low hundreds.

Now I did all this math and then realized the obvious: Maybe someone already studied this. So I googled "number of games with female protagonists". Turns out someone (https://thenextweb.com/gaming/2020/10/22/why-is-it-so-rare-to-have-a-woman-leading-a-game/#:~:text=In 2012, a report from,24 had a female lead Hyperlinking not working) had studied this. The numbers: In 2012 out of 669 games studied, 24 had a female protagonist and 300 allowed the choice of a female protagonist. So out of 669 games, 278 put you into the shoes of a male protagonist (10% of games in another studied were found to have no discernible protagonist gender, so I subtracted 67 games to account for that). 279 static male protagonist versus 24 static female. That's a 1 to 10 ratio. In other words: Female protagonists are not common.
You also forget that video games throughout the 80's and 90's were marketed almost exclusively as a boy's toy.

I hardly think that it is fair to imply that main characters had to be 50/50 men and women to be remotely equal. That's a completely disengenious argument and flawed point to make because it doesn't factor the production of entertainment of the time frame. That's like complaining about the lack of women in starring roles in movies from the 1930's.

Your argument was that female protagonists were not common before 2014, and that's simply not true. Especially since you choose to ignore the sheer volume of female characters in massive casts games like JRPG's and Fighting games. You simply want to skew the data to try and make your argument not look bad, which only makes your argument worse as you continue to try and discredit and manipulate numbers.

Let's also keep in mind that i did not mention the vast volume of games in which you do not even play as a human at all. Sonic's, Spyro's, Crash's, etc etc, etc.


Sure Steam has a lot of games on it. But the vast majority of it is asset flipped shovelware. And a lot of those janky shit games do have female main characters in them.

As for the article you linked, that information is clearly not factoring in customized characters and is obviously coming from a place of bias. Look even the last E3 report of female's in gaming that Feminist Frequency reported on (2017) Showed that 59% of video games featured a female playable main character. Where as male characters were featured available in 77% of games and 15% were monsters or whatever. Which is a difference of only 18%.

No media or story telling will have a perfect 50/50 balance. Creativity simply doesn't work that way. But it has been proven time and time again that the discrepancy is not nearly as bad as the "woke movement" wants to pretend it is.
 

Attachments

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 28, 2017
11,161
5,658
118
While I agree that she brought a lot of it on herself and that most things were untrue. There is appropriate reaction, and then there is going overboard and setting off a hissy fit nuke.

Her "plan" did work, but it was a pyhric victory. Sarkesian lost lots of followers due to false promises and all that kickstarter money she received going nowhere. Mainly in her personal pocket. Nearly everyone's forgotten about her aside from the upper places of game journalism that are trying to keep the "her fight alive" and those who hate her that much. Most of the public's already forgotten she's existed. Good riddance.
I mean her entire agenda and movement was a scam from minute one. She made a shitload of money scamming people and feeding off people calling her out on bullshit while she labeled it as "Harrassment". I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some or all of her most "disgusting" threats online, came from sock accounts of people on her payroll, especially once she learned how much money she could make from feeding off of it.

Look I'm not saying the harassments were made up, but most people suffering from that kind of thing usually bail on social media. She didn't. Why? Because the more hate she got, the more money she made. And if that's the case....how much of that hate was manufactured?
 

Eacaraxe

Elite Member
Legacy
May 28, 2020
1,702
1,287
118
Country
United States
You just made a huge post talking about something that I never even touched on.
No, I'm merely calling out the hidden premise in your analysis: that any of these people are actually right or have the intellectual or moral standing to levy the arguments they -- and by extension, you -- have. As opposed to being untalented, self-interested, hypocrites with ulterior motives that lay exclusively in their own pockets. And as a result, the positions they endorse are just as self-contradictory and facile as they themselves are.
 

Houseman

Mad Hatter Meme Machine.
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
3,910
760
118
It isn't amazing at all. Before 2014 or so it wasn't controversial (nor common) to have women or minorities as protagonists at all. Then a bunch of neckbeards got it into their head that any female or minority protagonists was false diversity and SJW Woke Culture. So now protagonist gender is part of the culture war.
I'll come at this from a different angle. It wasn't controversial to have women or minorities as protagonists, because NOBODY MADE A BIG DEAL ABOUT IT.

Then certain people started saying that games weren't diverse and inclusive enough, started accusing gamers of misogyny and racism, and didn't like how it was a "boy's hobby", and therefore MADE it controversial.

So no, the neckbeards didn't randomly start getting offended, the SJWs started getting offended and made a big deal over it. The SJWs started the fire.

Also:

Once again: I meant exactly what I wrote, not this weird delusional argument of mine that exists solely in your head.
It's funny, I got banned from the old forum by saying something almost exactly like this to you. I said something like "Maybe read the post on the page instead of the one you made up in your mind".

And now here you are saying that to someone else.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
20,038
4,786
118
So we're here again, huh? The point where we're blaming online harassment on the person being harassed for not just leaving social media. Inviting the death threats on herself for critizing videogames and videogame culture. Those very death threats certainly not proving her point or anything, because those death threats were probably just manufactured by her and her moustash twirling greed.

Never change gamers.
 

Houseman

Mad Hatter Meme Machine.
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
3,910
760
118
So we're here again, huh? The point where we're blaming online harassment on the person being harassed for not just leaving social media. Inviting the death threats on herself for critizing videogames and videogame culture. Those very death threats certainly not proving her point or anything, because those death threats were probably just manufactured by her and her moustash twirling greed.

Never change gamers.
Sarcasm isn't an argument. Playing the victim is a very real thing that people do.
 

Samtemdo8

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 25, 2020
1,501
608
118
Country
Private
Excuse me, wasn't common to have a female protagonist?

Off the top of my head here is a list of female heroes all in game prior to 2014.

Yuna - Final Fantasy X and X-2
Lightning - Final Fantasy 13, 13-3
Sera - Final Fantasy 13-2
Princess Peach - Mario 2
Zelda/Shiek
Lara Croft - Tomb Raider
Bayonetta
Tifa Lockheart - FF7
Chun Li - Street Fighter
Nina Williams - Tekken
Samus Aran - Metroid
Rayne - Bloodrayne
Sonya Blade - Mortal Kombat
COUNTLESS custom characters throughout gaming
Jill Valentine, Claire Redfield - Resident Evil 1, 2, 3, code Veronica
MRS. Pacman
Joanna Dark - Perfect Dark
Faith Conners - Mirror's Edge
Chell - Portal (and Gladius as the villian maybe)
Jade - Beyond Good and Evil.
Faith - Wet (voice by Eliza Dushku and completely under rated as a game)
Ellie - Xenogears
Kos-Mos - Xenosaga
Haruka - Yakuza 5
Ivy - Soul Calibur
and many many more

Woke Culture did not have a major impact on the number of girls running around our video games. Woke culture only made it seem like that was the case. It's been a bunch of bogus witch hunting from the get go. And like i said before I find it funny that the very same thing that the "Sarkeisian"-likes always cry out when a video game gets announced is "Oh boy another white dude as the main character! Get with the times Video Games only women should be characters. Men suck." Are the same people crying when internet trolls do the same thing about a female character in this GTA 6 thing that probably isn't even true.

It's just ironic and hypocritical imo. Because only one side get to play this card and when the other side tries it (whether troll or not) people lose their fucking minds.
Let me add to that with more fighting game characters

Street Fighter: C.Viper, Ibuki, Sakrua, Makoto, Karin, among others.
Soul Calibur: Sophitia, Hilda, Talim, among others
Mortal Kombat: Sonya Blade, and Cassie Cage, and Jaqui Briggs, Kitana and Jade

A lot of female fighting game characters just gets written off as over sexualized eye-candy for horny boys, and not all of them are. Especially with the likes of Sophitia and Makoto.
 

BrawlMan

Lover of beat'em ups.
Legacy
Mar 10, 2016
28,961
12,078
118
Detroit, Michigan
Country
United States of America
Gender
Male
I mean her entire agenda and movement was a scam from minute one. She made a shitload of money scamming people and feeding off people calling her out on bullshit while she labeled it as "Harrassment". I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some or all of her most "disgusting" threats online, came from sock accounts of people on her payroll, especially once she learned how much money she could make from feeding off of it.

Look I'm not saying the harassments were made up, but most people suffering from that kind of thing usually bail on social media. She didn't. Why? Because the more hate she got, the more money she made. And if that's the case....how much of that hate was manufactured?
I highly doubt that majority of the harassment was fake, made from fake accounts, or people on her pay roll. She would literally gain nothing from it. Especially in the long run. Sarkesian was just a stubborn, arrogant, schemer. Not this Kira/Xanatos God-Tier manipulator with a 1000 convoluted back up plans. This getting off topic, so I will end it here. Point being I highly disagree.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: CriticalGaming

Phoenixmgs

The Muse of Fate
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
9,550
823
118
w/ M'Kraan Crystal
Gender
Male
Your argument was that female protagonists were not common before 2014, and that's simply not true. Especially since you choose to ignore the sheer volume of female characters in massive casts games like JRPG's and Fighting games. You simply want to skew the data to try and make your argument not look bad, which only makes your argument worse as you continue to try and discredit and manipulate numbers.
IIRC from the extra features/videos on the game disc of Heavenly Sword, it was the only game at an E3 that featured a female protagonist. We also know the stories of publishers not allowing female protags because previous games with them didn't sell as well. I even believe Naughty Dog had to fight to get Ellie on the cover of TLOU. How can you say there wasn't an issue with women and minority representation is games? There's probably still is an issue just because a lot of current game characters originated from those times so you'll still see less minority characters (based on general population percentages) just due to that. It's like how most comic book characters were white men because of times when all your Supermans and Batmans originated from. It's not just a current issue but a systemic one.
 

Houseman

Mad Hatter Meme Machine.
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
3,910
760
118
IIRC from the extra features/videos on the game disc of Heavenly Sword, it was the only game at an E3 that featured a female protagonist. We also know the stories of publishers not allowing female protags because previous games with them didn't sell as well. I even believe Naughty Dog had to fight to get Ellie on the cover of TLOU. How can you say there wasn't an issue with women and minority representation is games? There's probably still is an issue just because a lot of current game characters originated from those times so you'll still see less minority characters (based on general population percentages) just due to that. It's like how most comic book characters were white men because of times when all your Supermans and Batmans originated from. It's not just a current issue but a systemic one.
It's an "issue" like how nurses being overwhelmingly female is an "issue".
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
20,038
4,786
118
IIRC from the extra features/videos on the game disc of Heavenly Sword, it was the only game at an E3 that featured a female protagonist. We also know the stories of publishers not allowing female protags because previous games with them didn't sell as well. I even believe Naughty Dog had to fight to get Ellie on the cover of TLOU. How can you say there wasn't an issue with women and minority representation is games? There's probably still is an issue just because a lot of current game characters originated from those times so you'll still see less minority characters (based on general population percentages) just due to that. It's like how most comic book characters were white men because of times when all your Supermans and Batmans originated from. It's not just a current issue but a systemic one.
And Naughty Dog themselves are guilty of this too, certainly in the first three Uncharted games, where all the good guys are white Americans and the bad guys/duplicitous individuals are either British, South American, or wherever the hell Lazaravic is from. And the original concept art for Abby depicted her as a black woman, which would've made her the first playable character of color in a Naughty Dog game... and then they decided to just make her boring and white again. I guess at least we got to play as Chloe, who is half Indian (though I don't think anyone would've guessed that from the previous games) and has an Australian accent. Baby steps, right?

EDIT: I think the original concept art for Chloe was her being black too. So yeah...
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

Satinavian

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 30, 2016
1,896
775
118
Now I did all this math and then realized the obvious: Maybe someone already studied this. So I googled "number of games with female protagonists". Turns out someone (https://thenextweb.com/gaming/2020/10/22/why-is-it-so-rare-to-have-a-woman-leading-a-game/#:~:text=In 2012, a report from,24 had a female lead Hyperlinking not working) had studied this. The numbers: In 2012 out of 669 games studied, 24 had a female protagonist and 300 allowed the choice of a female protagonist. So out of 669 games, 278 put you into the shoes of a male protagonist (10% of games in another studied were found to have no discernible protagonist gender, so I subtracted 67 games to account for that). 279 static male protagonist versus 24 static female. That's a 1 to 10 ratio. In other words: Female protagonists are not common.
So in roughly half of those you could play as woman. Now that is obviously far less than where you could play as male and it kind of sidesteps the issue of "female leads might not sale" when you provide both options but it is not that it was difficult to find games where you could play as a female main character.

Now i prefer to play as female and would welcome even more of that but to say that was difficult in the past is an exeggeration.
 
Last edited: