Cyberpunk 2077 Review thread - Umm....

[BrawlMan]

Since @CriticalGaming & @Samtemdo8 got all the well-known ones, I'll place some obscure ones.

• Lady & Trish - Devil May Cry
• Rosa Felmond - Undercover Cops
• Juliet Starling - Lollipop Chainsaw
• Shinobu & Bad Girl - No More Heroes 1, 2, & Travis Strikes Again
• KAEDE Smith - Killer 7
• Aya, Saki, Kagura, & Saaya - Onechanbara
• Blaze Fielding & Cherry Hunter - Streets of Rage
• Linn Kurosawa - Alien versus Predator
• All the female characters in both Hyrule Warriors games.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Since @CriticalGaming & @Samtemdo8 got all the well-known ones, I'll place some obscure ones.

• Lady & Trish - Devil May Cry
• Rosa Felmond - Undercover Cops
• Juliet Starling - Lollipop Chainsaw
• Shinobi & Bad Girl - No More Heroes 1, 2, & Travis Strikes Again
• KAEDE Smith - Killer 7
• Aya, Saki, Kagura, & Saaya - Onechanbara
• Blaze Fielding & Cherry Hunter - Streets of Rage
• Linn Kurosawa - Alien versus Predator
• All the female characters in both Hyrule Warriors games.

do the Senran Kagura games count?

 

[BrawlMan]

do the Senran Kagura games count?

Yes. I assumed you already had them on the list.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Yes. I assumed you already had them on the list.

I wasn't allowed to put characters that were also part of larger ensemble cast, like fighting games. So I left them off, but I get they count because the whole cast is girls so....oh Skull Girls! Them too errr no, it has to be pre-2014 as well. It gets harder when you add a bunch of rules that make the most of the female characters not count arbitrarily.

 

[BrawlMan]

I wasn't allowed to put characters that were also part of larger ensemble cast, like fighting games.

It's a beat em up.

it has to be pre-2014 as well. It gets harder when you add a bunch of rules that make the most of the female characters not count arbitrarily.

I know you set you're own rules, but for me it don't matter at this point. There will always be women that can kick ass in gaming. I could not care what other nay sayers think on either side.

 

[CriticalGaming]

It's a beat em up.


I know you set you're own rules, but for me it don't matter at this point. There will always be women that can kick ass in gaming. I could not care what other nay sayers think on either side.

I didn't add rules. I think any main/playable female character counts.

 

[BrawlMan]

I didn't add rules. I think any main/playable female character counts.

Good.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Alright, so now that we're at the point of using porn game leads as "female leads gamers don't have a problem with", can we all agree that weirdos getting mad at GTA 6 maybe having a female lead amongst it's ensemble is inherently hilarious?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Straight talk. What do you expect of people who design women characters overwhelmingly in phenotypes possessed by less than 20% of the female population, call it "diversity", then criticize phenotypes possessed by over 60% of the female population as unrealistic? Who call average Western cup sizes unrealistic, oversexualized, and exaggerated, then possess the temerity to accuse others of body-shaming while laying claim to body-positivity?

Then in an incredible display of unawareness of how the human body merely exists, turn around and unilaterally declare one of the unhealthiest and dangerous things a human being can do to themselves short of literal suicide a commanding height of women's representation and inclusivity in game design? Oh, sure Abby's character design is based on a Real Life Woman! ...just never mind how that woman's a world-class professional athlete, the source images were taken on peak days and after prep for photoshoots and performances, and the woman upon whom Abby was based has herself spoken about the rigors, ups, and downs of on-season dieting.

A) It's readily apparent y'all aren't around farms all that much.
B) Where the fuck is this conversation around most dude characters?

 

[Gordon_4]

A) It's readily apparent y'all aren't around farms all that much.
B) Where the fuck is this conversation around most dude characters?

If I may (almost) quote from a farm lad regarding this thread "What kind of fucking backwards pagentry is this?"

 

[Eacaraxe]

A) It's readily apparent y'all aren't around farms all that much.

Midwest-born and raised here, grew up and worked on 'em. Which would you like to talk about, small-scale commercial produce, industrialized grain, dairy, pork, or beef? Because I'd love to hear how you think that's remotely relevant, and not, say, a convenient red herring to throw out there. Because if you think farm women all look like crossfitters and/or farmers intentionally dehydrate themselves or fuck up their electrolyte imbalances for weigh-in days or photoshoots, you're sorely mistaken.

B) Where the fuck is this conversation around most dude characters?

I dunno, you tell me. Because all I ever hear is the occasional fart in the wind about toxic masculinity or grouching about the color of men characters' skin or (largely presumed) sexuality, in between all the handwaves about how "male gaze still applies to men!" and "it's a power fantasy!" when challenged on precisely this point, about toxic and unrealistic body standards for men as presented in the media.

Where were you in the about half a dozen threads in Current Events in the past six months where I was talking about this exact phenomenon?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Midwest-born and raised here, grew up and worked on 'em. Which would you like to talk about, small-scale commercial produce, industrialized grain, dairy, pork, or beef? Because I'd love to hear how you think that's remotely relevant, and not, say, a convenient red herring to throw out there. Because if you think farm women all look like crossfitters and/or farmers intentionally dehydrate themselves or fuck up their electrolyte imbalances for weigh-in days or photoshoots, you're sorely mistaken.

lol

My younger cousin looks like that *and* is 6'5". And she doesn't do CrossFit. Maybe a little doughyer, but that's the apocalypse for ya.

I dunno, you tell me. Because all I ever hear is the occasional fart in the wind about toxic masculinity or grouching about the color of men characters' skin or (largely presumed) sexuality, in between all the handwaves about how "male gaze still applies to men!" and "it's a power fantasy!" when challenged on precisely this point, about toxic and unrealistic body standards for men as presented in the media.

Where were you in the about half a dozen threads in Current Events in the past six months where I was talking about this exact phenomenon?

You're right, I *absolutely* missed your one thread a month in current events about male video game characters being shredded with no pushback from the gamers.

 

[Eacaraxe]

My younger cousin looks like that *and* is 6'5". And she doesn't do CrossFit. Maybe a little doughyer, but that's the apocalypse for ya.

Oh, well, because your cousin who more likely than not happens to be among the 1.3% of Americans involved in the production side of agribusiness happens to "look like that", actual scientific studies about women's body phenotypes must be now and forever incorrect, and clearly this anecdotal ultra-minority of an ultra-minority must be representative of the total US population.

I knew women in my FFA days who came from farms too, and a good number of them could have modeled. A couple of them actually did model. Knew one or two with deadass anime waists and tiddies. Damn more than the ones with inverse triangle body shapes, let alone to the point their shoulders were noticeably wider than their hips...counting the ones who did softball and girls' basketball, which meant atop farm work they spent as much or more time around the year conditioning, maintaining, and lifting in the gym than the guys. Hell, one of 'em bench pressed me on a bet my senior year, she didn't look anywhere near the way Abby does.

But then again, they never skipped leg and core day I guess. I mean, if we're descending into the realm of anecdotes, now.

You're right, I *absolutely* missed your one thread a month in current events about male video game characters being shredded with no pushback from the gamers.

Oh hoo boy, look at them goalposts go! Just, y'know, never mind that Elliot Page thread, which was the last one where I was talking about this. Not even "just" games, either, but media representation in sum. Not that Elliot Page has anything at all to do with the Last of Us series, right?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Oh, well, because your cousin who more likely than not happens to be among the 1.3% of Americans involved in the production side of agribusiness happens to "look like that", actual scientific studies about women's body phenotypes must be now and forever incorrect, and clearly this anecdotal ultra-minority of an ultra-minority must be representative of the total US population.

Cool. And where is this conversation with the majority of dude characters?
EDIT: like, what's the CrossFit connection here? And why does it matter that other physically strong don't look like Abby when other physically strong women do?
Seriously, where's this energy with Mr. Beefslab McHeadcrusher?

Oh hoo boy, look at them goalposts go! Just, y'know, never mind that Elliot Page thread, which was the last one where I was talking about this. Not even "just" games, either, but media representation in sum. Not that Elliot Page has anything at all to do with the Last of Us series, right?

Yeah, actually. I've got no idea what that thread and this thread have to do with each other.

 

[Eacaraxe]

EDIT: like, what's the CrossFit connection here? And why does it matter that other physically strong don't look like Abby when other physically strong women do?

"The CrossFit connection" would be because the model for Abby's body is Colleen Fotsch, a professional CrossFitter. Literally read the goddamn thread, this was discussed a page ago and in practically every conversation about Abby's physique since the game's first trailers came out. You're not exactly coming across as a credible source to have zero apparent awareness of this key factoid, being it's been the crux of every argument for Abby's "realism" to have been made.

And that's literally the point I made. A page ago. In the post you quite clearly did not read.

Physiques like Abby's are neither realistic nor particularly healthy, let alone sustainable, for how she's textured or rendered. Her own body model doesn't even look like that off-season, and to get that appearance on-season and for weigh-ins and photo shoots, takes rather drastic action that is very unhealthy and actually quite dangerous for the individuals involved due to the extent of dehydration and electrolyte imbalance they put themselves through to shed water weight.

The woman who was Abby's own body model has spoken out about these things herself. And I linked an article to her statements about it. A page ago. In the post you obviously did not read.

Seriously, where's this energy with Mr. Beefslab McHeadcrusher?

Yeah, actually. I've got no idea what that thread and this thread have to do with each other.

The answer to the former lies in your ignorance of the latter. Because my point in that whole-ass thread was legal inequity for trans men in access to gender-affirming hormones, due to steroid abuse in professional competition -- and toxic stereotypes and unrealistic body expectations for men.

Funny, I looked in your post history and you posted in that thread. Obviously you're aware of its existence. Interesting how you've managed to ignore my talking, quite often, about toxic masculinity and the media, only to pop in here and now with "Y U No TaLk BoUt ToXiC mAsCuLiNiTy?!?!?!?!??" when and only when it suits your political motives.

 

[Terminal Blue]

So, one thing that really confuses me about the whole reaction to body positivity and body diversity debate in video games is that there are basically two contexts in which it comes out.

1) Female characters in a video game are aggressively sexualized in their designs, and people comment negatively on that, then other people lose their shit over it.
2) Female characters in video games deviate slightly from the norm in their design, and people lose their shit over it.

People acting like some fundamental right is being violated, or that real women are somehow being body shamed for having improbable boobs (we'll get to that) seems really ridiculous to me, because frankly the whole debate seems like an overreaction to entirely reasonable levels of criticism and commentary, or worse still a weird backlash against actual creative choices.

Straight talk. What do you expect of people who design women characters overwhelmingly in phenotypes possessed by less than 20% of the female population, call it "diversity", then criticize phenotypes possessed by over 60% of the female population as unrealistic? Who call average Western cup sizes unrealistic, oversexualized, and exaggerated, then possess the temerity to accuse others of body-shaming while laying claim to body-positivity?

You need to read those links more carefully, I think.

But yeah, on the "body shaming" thing. I don't have breasts, but I think if you talk to people who do, and in particularly the relatively small number of people who have that kind of glamour-model-esque figure you tend to see overrepresented in video games (let's not even get into the full on breast hypertropy that would actually be a serious medical condition if it happened to a real person) you will find that the source of any shame they experience typically isn't coming from people criticising video games, but rather from the fact that they run the daily risk of being treated extremely awfully by men who cannot distinguish between their own sexual fantasies and the existence of real people, and by the fact that they have to constantly be conscious of the sexual implications of their own bodies in real life. It sounds honestly kind of exhausting having to go through life managing other people's sense of sexual entitlement.

And that sense of entitlement is the real problem here. There's nothing wrong with games being horny if that's what they're going for, but if games are constantly feeding you the same boring adolescent horniness then it stops being a stylistic choice and just becomes the baseline. Worse, it becomes an excuse to attack any attempt to diversify the kinds of fantasies which video games can offer, including horny ones.

None of that is a reasonable arguement about the design of fiction characters in video games. It all boils down to the fantasy of which you are playing. And in terms of video gaming, people almost always prefer to play "beautiful" characters while designers also prefer to design beautiful characters. Beauty, equals health, and health equals "hero", which is why the heroes of comics, movies, and video games are often the perfect looking man or woman facing off against ugly monsters.

Perfect-looking for whom?

I think that kind of cuts right to the root of the problem here. There is no single objective standard of what beauty looks like which is shared by everyone. Even in the media we consume, there are multiple conflicting beauty standards which relate to different purposes and different people. The women who have traditionally posed for Vogue and the women who have traditionally posed for Playboy are both beautiful, but they're also going to look very different from each other because those magazines have different purposes and different audiences. Ironically though, despite being far more influential in terms of shaping publicly accepted beauty ideals, both those magazines now cater to far more diverse audiences than mainstream video games, which is why I had to include the "traditionally".

Then there's the other, unacknowledged features of what a "perfect-looking" person looks like. Does a perfect-looking person have to be white or white-passing, for example. Because people complain when that doesn't happen. Is that just a neutral, "objective" standard of beauty?

It seems disingenuous to claim that beauty standards are objective and this is just the way it is while also shouting down attempts to diversify from that.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Physiques like Abby's are neither realistic nor particularly healthy, let alone sustainable, for how she's textured or rendered. Her own body model doesn't even look like that off-season, and to get that appearance on-season and for weigh-ins and photo shoots, takes rather drastic action that is very unhealthy and actually quite dangerous for the individuals involved due to the extent of dehydration and electrolyte imbalance they put themselves through to shed water weight.

Gee, you think the revenge obsessed traumatized gym rat might not be the healthiest person out there? Might not be thinking about the long-term ramifications of her workout regimen as she beefs up to club a dude's face in?

Go fucking figure.

Like, even if I accept your entire argument as true (and I just don't see what you're seeing, muscle wise), so fucking what if it's "unhealthy". How can a body type be "unrealistic" when it modeled on a live, actual person. You even know her name, for fuck's sake.

The answer to the former lies in your ignorance of the latter. Because my point in that whole-ass thread was legal inequity for trans men in access to gender-affirming hormones, due to steroid abuse in professional competition -- and toxic stereotypes and unrealistic body expectations for men.

Steroid abuse is professional competition has about 0% to do with why trans men have a problem with getting hormones and has about 0% to do with why only video game women have to deal with "realism" as a benchmark, for either sexy *or* muscles

 

[Eacaraxe]

You need to read those links more carefully, I think.

My point was my point, and I said exactly what I intended to say. Those who design women characters with "diversity" in mind trend towards body types that are overall less diverse and less representative of the overall women's population, than the people they're criticizing. Meaning, they've come full circle to being exactly what they claim to despise, in the name of paradoxical, performative, "inclusivity".

...and in particularly the relatively small number of people who have that kind of glamour-model-esque figure you tend to see overrepresented in video games...

In "realistic" design, or in stylized design? Because as I already pointed out, in the case of male characters this phenomenon is hand-waved as "male power fantasy" and "stylization" regardless of its real-world impact. That, in itself, is already a double standard in that stylized male designs are disregarded as "not my problem" whilst women characters, even stylized ones, that do have phenotypes representative of average women warrant ideological inquisitions.

That's an important distinction to make in an entertainment medium that has only in the past decade -- of the nearly-fifty years since its inception -- matured to the point of hardware and software being capable of rendering photorealistic characters. Whilst fighting movements to censor the medium en masse for its "realistic" depictions of mature content, meaning the medium remains mired in reliance upon stylization to avoid protest.

...the source of any shame they experience typically isn't coming from people criticising video games, but rather from the fact that they run the daily risk of being treated extremely awfully by men who cannot distinguish between their own sexual fantasies and the existence of real people...

And, this is unique to video games how and why? Especially when taking into consideration there's no link between video games, consumers of that medium, and sexism beyond societal norms.

New Study Finds No Link Between Gaming And Sexist Attitudes

A few days ago a German longitudinal study was published that explored the connection between gaming and sexist attitudes. The results broadly show that playing videogames doesn't make people sexist. The study was based around cultivation theory, which posits that long-term exposure to media...

www.forbes.com

That is, when they're not outright contradicting continually-perpetuated "hypotheses" about gaming and sexism.

Increased Cognitive Load during Video Game Play Reduces Rape Myth Acceptance and Hostile Sexism after Exposure to Sexualized Female Avatars - Sex Roles

The present study investigated how task demand (cognitive load and interactivity) and avatar sexualization in a video game influenced rape myth acceptance (RMA), hostile sexism, and self-objectification. In a between-subjects design, 300 U.S. college students either played or watched someone...

link.springer.com

Regardless how badly certain self-interested parties want to continue lying about it and producing bunk "research" to confirm biases. And yet, of all popular culture, video games perpetually somehow seem to be the whipping boy and magnet for clout chasers with ulterior motives.

Gee, you think the revenge obsessed traumatized gym rat might not be the healthiest person out there? Might not be thinking about the long-term ramifications of her workout regimen as she beefs up to club a dude's face in?

Quite the red herring you got there. You're telling me in the midst of a zombie apocalypse an irrational revenge-besodden individual would find time and opportunity to consult nutritionists on how to best water and sodium load to drop weight and make her muscles pop just in time for her big moment? Without, oh say, fucking dying of a heart attack because of it?

You're so far into "not even wrong" territory here you can't even see the light of day. Because that's what I'm talking about.

Go fucking figure.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Like, even if I accept your entire argument as true (and I just don't see what you're seeing, muscle wise), so fucking what if it's "unhealthy".

Because we're literally talking about toxic stereotypes versus positive body images, inclusivity and diversity in character design. That it's unhealthy, and this game, its creators, and its defenders are outstandingly hypocritically treating it as a highwater mark in body acceptance and positivity, is the entire goddamn point. And now you're gonna take those goalposts to warp speed by pretending that just doesn't happen, and that the unhealthiness of it is the point?

When you were literally just trying to defend it with anecdotal evidence that this is how physically fit women are supposed to look?

How can a body type be "unrealistic" when it modeled on a live, actual person. You even know her name, for fuck's sake.

I literally have explained this multiple times over multiple posts, long before you farted your way in here. With all due respect, drop the ridiculous and transparent straw men and actually put forth a modicum of effort to comprehend the point as explained to you in plain English, yeah?

Steroid abuse is professional competition has about 0% to do with why trans men have a problem with getting hormones...

"Why steroids are controlled substances on par with prescription narcotics has about 0% to do with why trans men have a problem with getting hormones". Right.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Gee, you think the revenge obsessed traumatized gym rat might not be the healthiest person out there? Might not be thinking about the long-term ramifications of her workout regimen as she beefs up to club a dude's face in?

Go fucking figure.

Like, even if I accept your entire argument as true (and I just don't see what you're seeing, muscle wise), so fucking what if it's "unhealthy". How can a body type be "unrealistic" when it modeled on a live, actual person. You even know her name, for fuck's sake.

Steroid abuse is professional competition has about 0% to do with why trans men have a problem with getting hormones and has about 0% to do with why only video game women have to deal with "realism" as a benchmark, for either sexy *or* muscles

What was the point of you adding that picture of Chris Redfield to your post? If it was to imply that no one complains when a male character is overly buff I don't think you remember when Resident Evil 5 came out. Literally everyone made fun of Chris Redfield's design. There's a reason Capcom redesigned him in RE6 and 7 to be more lean and reduced the size of his biceps by half, it's because everyone thought his design in RE5 was ridiculous.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Quite the red herring you got there. You're telling me in the midst of a zombie apocalypse an irrational revenge-besodden individual would find time and opportunity to consult nutritionists on how to best water and sodium load to drop weight and make her muscles pop just in time for her big moment? Without, oh say, fucking dying of a heart attack because of it?

You're so far into "not even wrong" territory here you can't even see the light of day. Because that's what I'm talking about.

Didn't realize bodybuilding was such a bloodsport. They should really stop people from doing it as it's so dangerous.

What was the point of you adding that picture of Chris Redfield to your post? If it was to imply that no one complains when a male character is overly buff I don't think you remember when Resident Evil 5 came out. Literally everyone made fun of Chris Redfield's design. There's a reason Capcom redesigned him in RE6 and 7 to be more lean and reduced the size of his biceps by half, it's because everyone thought his design in RE5 was ridiculous.

Made fun of, sure. Wrote treatises about how dead he should be, not really