Dante Takes to the Air in New DmC Trailer
- Thread starter Logan Westbrook
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You'd be surprised how many people find the story of the Devil May Cry games to be genuinely interesting. Myself included.Packie_J said:
Then again I'm in the mindset that if you have no interest in the story at all then you shouldn't be playing the game in the first place.
Nah this is a complete reboot, DMC3 was the one that explained how he got his devil powers. Although there wasn't much to explain: his daddy was a demon so he is half demon and therefor super fast and strong and all that jazz. The only power he didn't have since birth was devil trigger but somewhere halfway in the game he gets roughed up pretty bad, gets mad and voila! Devil trigger unlocked! His hair has been white since birth. There wasn't even a big cliche drama scene where he finds out his father was a demon because he already knew that all his life.anthony87 said:
OT: I said it before and I'll say it again. I don't hate this game at all, in fact it looks pretty good. But the very fact that it exists means no more original dante and THAT makes me a sad panda
Also, the whole he-looks-just-like-NT's-head thing makes me pretty uncomfortable. I mean, they must at some point have realised how it would make them look right?
A decent story in a DMC game? Blasphemy! Lol. This should be really interesting. I'll definitely give it a try. Hope it doesn't disappoint.FallenTraveler said:
I don't mind the design change but TN's attitude irks me a little. I mean you don't really have to westernize the game in order to make it sell. Developers, for better or worst, should stick to their original vision about the game. Just look at Bayonetta, that game was batshit insane and it was still successful despite its Japanese weirdness.TheDooD said:
If the fans are bothered by NT's comments then I understand where they're coming from but if they're bitching about silly shit like "OMG! His hair is white! He looks like twilight! BOYCOTT!" then... *facepalm*
If I had one complaint about the combat; to me, the sound of the weapon sounded more suited to a kusarigama than a sword or scythe or rabid dog or whatever else that thing turns in to and considering they're stupidly trying to dejapanify Dante, I can't see one of those being in his weapon choice.
And yes people, red coat, white hair at 0:35. This has been confirmed for months.
And yes people, red coat, white hair at 0:35. This has been confirmed for months.
Well this trailer certainly looks better than the E3 one.
But alas, the butthurt fanboys will cry in their millions.
Colour me interested.
But alas, the butthurt fanboys will cry in their millions.
Colour me interested.
Despite everything, there's really only one, over-arching reason that this game is worrying me. The reason being that DMC4 left us with a fuckton of questions which seem to be just getting ignored at this stage.bliebblob said:Nah this is a complete reboot, DMC3 was the one that explained how he got his devil powers. Although there wasn't much to explain: his daddy was a demon so he is half demon and therefor super fast and strong and all that jazz. The only power he didn't have since birth was devil trigger but somewhere halfway in the game he gets roughed up pretty bad, gets mad and voila! Devil trigger unlocked! His hair has been white since birth. There wasn't even a big cliche drama scene where he finds out his father was a demon because he already knew that all his life.anthony87 said:
OT: I said it before and I'll say it again. I don't hate this game at all, in fact it looks pretty good. But the very fact that it exists means no more original dante and THAT makes me a sad panda
Also, the whole he-looks-just-like-NT's-head thing makes me pretty uncomfortable. I mean, they must at some point have realised how it would make them look right?
I won't say nay to a reboot because it's a reboot. I'll say nay to a reboot because I want some damn answers to previously established questions.
No not getting it, After Ninja Theory insulted us fans, trashed Dante, and completely ignored us fans, I'm not getting it. Capcom should hand the rights to Devil May Cry over to Hideki Kamiya, the man who created Devil May Cry. But there to afraid of handing Devil May Cry over to someone they know will make the game better then they could, so they are just fine with letting the fan base break apart.
Call me a screaming fanboy if you want I don't care, but after all the lies, insults, and disrespect that Ninja Theory and Capcom has shown, disabling the rating from the live interview when people were hitting the dislike button for not having there good questions answered and only answering simple question so we learn pretty much nothing about the game. Tameem Antoniades himself saying he doesn't care what we fans think and Tameem blatantly puting himself in the game. I will not support them in any way.
Call me a screaming fanboy if you want I don't care, but after all the lies, insults, and disrespect that Ninja Theory and Capcom has shown, disabling the rating from the live interview when people were hitting the dislike button for not having there good questions answered and only answering simple question so we learn pretty much nothing about the game. Tameem Antoniades himself saying he doesn't care what we fans think and Tameem blatantly puting himself in the game. I will not support them in any way.
They should of done a story about Dante and Virgil not about how the lead developer wants to be Dante fucking emo piece of shit, the story and gameplay better blow me away or thats another developer I will not touch for ruing a franchise...... looking at you Obsidian can not really believe that picture sad face.............................anthony87 said:What worries me in that trailer is the enviroments.
Last time we had enviroments that big in a Devil May Cry game we ended up with DMC2
*shudder*
As far as the new look goes, I'm willing to accept it with time, but I just wish that they hadn't made him look like the head of NT:
Right, thats it, to be honest, I'm over the "shock and awe" of changing Dantes appearance. Been a DMC fan since the very first day of release on PS2, and I will still buy this game. The characters "decal" or "model" (whatever) shouldnt stop this from being another challenging and cool game.
It may be difficult but if you aren't a fan please try to look at this from the perspective of how you would feel if it happened to a favourite series of yours. The point of this post is mostly to present the arguments in a coherent format and to counteract the idea that the backlash is knee jerk or mindless.Zhukov said:
Before I start I would like to say that...
IT'S NOT JUST DANTE'S HAIR AND LOOK!
Seriously it's not. Just carry on reading and you'll find out our other concerns. This is not to say that we like this look but that is a point that will be covered later. Now let's begin.
The Devil May Cry series was recently announced by a 2 minute long trailer and press release as being "rebooted" by developer Ninja Theory under direction of Capcom.
In most articles talking about this the concerns of fans have been falsely reduced to either "people don't like change" or that we are somehow only upset over the fact that the main character no longer has white hair. It is a mistake to assume that there isn't more to the backlash than that.
This isn't blind hatred. If any or all of these points are addressed fans would be more receptive to the upcoming game. Unfortunately it appears to many that Capcom and Ninja Theory are more concerned with misrepresenting the fanbase to the public than easing their concerns.
For reading convenience we will reduce some major concerns voiced at the Capcom forums and the Ninja Theory forums to bullet points.
Points of concern:
0. Information Available
There's more information than just the trailer. There are interviews available and a history that must be considered.
1. The Look and Attitude of Dante
The character in the trailer shares no apparent similarity to Dante. This goes beyond single, superficial traits.
2. The Developer: Their History and Design Philosophy
NT has a history of games with poor combat and technical problems. This is the result of their design philosophy which puts story over gameplay. They show an inability to take blame or learn from mistakes.
3. The Game Engine
The game engine used, Unreal Engine 3, has technical issues that make it unsuited to this genre of game (fast paced hack and slash). NT has shown an inability to use it to produce a game meeting average technical standards for the genre.
4. Westernization
Farming out to Western Devs and trying to copy "Western" styles, is harmful and learns the wrong lessons.
5. Game Direction (Tone and Style)
A slower, brutality focused, grounded and realistic take is generic and is to many undesirable.
6. Prequel or Reboot?
Evidence and statements from Capcom are contradictory and both options have major downsides.
7. Capcom's involvement
The only confirmed involvement by Capcom Japan is a few members in a "creative oversight" role with no details given. This is vague and could mean nothing substantial.
8. The Attitude Towards The Series and Fans
The developer in charge of this game has said that staples of the franchise are either out of date or were not cool in the first place. They have not only ignored the fans but have been seemingly proud about ignoring them. When asked about the fan reaction the Lead designer, one of the public faces of the project, only responded "I don't care."
To expand on those points:
0. Information Available
1) In addition to the 2 minute teaser released with the announcement there was a press release;
2) There have also been interviews with those in charge of the project including lead designer Tameem Antoniades, Capcom USA Producer Alex Jones and Capcom U.K. PR Manager Leo Tan:
3) The developer, NT, has a history that must be considered. The history of Westernization attempts made by Capcom must also be considered.
4) There are statements from Keiji Inafune, then current Head of R&D.
1. The Look and Attitude of Dante
There are some confirmed facts about the character shown in the trailer:
1. He doesn't have Dante's long red coat. The only red seen is on the very edge of a black jacket with "shoulder flaps".
2. He is skinny, bordering on unhealthily skinny, and has a neck transplanted from a giraffe.
3. He smokes. According to explicit information from his creator, and corroborated by all canon information, Dante is a non-smoker.
4. He smokes effeminately.
5. He scowls. A lot. He also attacks slowly and unprovoked and displays sadism.
6. He has several cuts and bruises all over his body (and looks like he hasn't taken a shower in weeks).
7. According to Leo Tan one of the differences is that this character wasn't born with white hair.
8. He has the exact same hairstyle and color as the lead designer and wears the flag of the designer's country. This same person is a smoker.
They stated that the character would be more "brutal," focused on revenge, appeal to "disenfranchised youths" and that he would "express himself through violence." All of that, along with the perpetual scowling, points to an 'angry at the world' type of character.
It's also extremely out of character: Dante was always shown to be the kind of person to rise above things rather than let himself be dragged down. People can change but it is unrealistic for them to change that drastically between this game and DMC 3. There's character development but then there's removing essential parts of a character's personality.
You can change some elements of a character and retain recognizability but if you take away every unique characteristic not many people will recognize it as the same person.
You can't take away their color scheme, remove an essential piece of their garb that they've worn in every appearance (the long red coat), alter their face and body beyond recognition, change their birth, change their demeanor beyond reasonable character development and change the way their body works (long lasting cuts and bruises don't make sense on a man who regularly gets impaled with no lasting damage) then still call it the same character. It just doesn't work that way.
They're essentially trying to say The Green Lantern is Batman
Dante, as a character, was still popular and his look was iconic. Capcom seems to realize this somewhat as they used his actual appearance in Marvel vs. Capcom 3. Changing him so drastically into such an ugly and unlikeable character is seen as a bad idea to many.
2. The Developer: Their History and Design Philosophy
Let it be known this is a criticism not of NT's story telling abilities but of their ability to produce an action game of the caliber that the Devil May Cry series is known for.
Ninja Theory has made two high profile games before, one of them a launch title for the PS3. Heavenly Sword, their first high profile game, was released September, 2007. It was criticized for having shallow combat, noticeable input lag, technical problems, and an erratic frame rate that often ran below 30 frames per second.
Enslaved, their second high profile game, was released October, 2010. It was released 3 years later and ran on a different engine but had all the same issues as Heavenly Sword. In some places it is even worse. This shows an unwillingness or inability to recognize and learn from mistakes in their design philosophy.
Looking at their games they sacrifice response time for animation rather than trying to balance them; they sacrifice frame rate and gameplay fluidity for background details, pushing the engine to make the game look good rather than play good. It isn't even that gameplay comes after story for these people: Gameplay comes after everything else to them when they're making a game.
If a developer has only made games with substandard combat and technical flaws, and when said defects are the result of a stated design philosophy, then they are likely to continue produce games with those flaws until their design philosophy changes.
They still have the same people, the same attitude, and we have no reason to believe that in the time since they made Enslaved they have completely changed their way of thinking and doing things. We simply haven't seen any evidence such as introspective comments or restructuring that would lead us to believe that they realize their mistakes.
That isn't unreasonable prejudging. That is simply the logical default. If x happened in the past on more than one occasion and y is the reason we need evidence that y has changed before we can be hopeful that x doesn't happen again.
3. The Engine
Every Devil May Cry game to date has had a 60 fps frame rate on consoles. This is necessary for the speed, depth and responsiveness of combat that the series is popular for.
The problems of the engine include poor porting to the PS3 resulting in more technical problems across the board.
UE 3 (for consoles) is designed for 30 frame per second games. There has only been one game that reached the 60 fps benchmark using UE3 and the developers of that had to sacrifice certain properties across the board and work very hard to maintain the desired look and frame rate. This was all done to achieve 60 fps on a fighting game which would by default have much less characters on screen than a hack and slash of DMC's nature.
In order to make a game run well on UE3 it's necessary to sacrifice certain things, to cut where it's needed and to have a technical proficiency with the Engine. Ninja Theory has shown no desire to curtail unnecessary details for the sake of stability and control.
4. Westernization
This negative reaction is partly indicative of the general response to Capcom's efforts to westernize their brands and the concerns brought up should be viewed in that light. Inafune said that the decisions resulting in this game were designed to "make it more attractive to American and European players."
The way Capcom is going about their strategy, by farming out to Western Developers and trying to copy stereotypical "Western" styles, is harmful to their IPs and learns the wrong lessons. All past efforts using this strategy resulted in generic, poorly received products. Examples include Bionic Commando (2008) and Dark Void.
Instead of looking at development practices and seeing that what works is putting more money into the game's development and marketing they look to copy the surface and give the games to other companies for development.
By trying to superficially emulate current trends in Western game development such as a grim tone and anti-hero protagonists, they sacrifice the popular style of their games; they create generic games that fail to achieve a distinct personality of their own. This is tragic when dealing with a property that was still a distinct, original franchise.
5. Game Direction (Tone and Style)
A key concern here is the magnitude of the change and the direction of that change. Everything we've seen and heard about the art direction, the tone and the plot seems generic and so divergent from Devil May Cry as to be unrecognizable.
A revenge plot with an unlikeable protagonist who scowls all the time is creating yet another game with and attitude the market is already too saturated with. It is neither new nor exciting. It is also far from what DMC is enjoyed for.
Ninja Theory said that Bayonetta's over the top action is something that they don't want. They referred to it as not "cool" and as "too Japanesy." In saying this they are killing many people's hope that this will at least feel like a Devil May Cry game: If one phrase could be used to describe Devil May Cry as a franchise that phrase would be over the top. That is one of the primary draws of the series.
People fear that this will develop into a God of War knock off with all the overwrought seriousness and slow combat that entails. That works for God of War but it is not what fans want for this series and it would only make it so the game is lost in a sea of similar titles.
In the trailer we see monochromatic, dull morphing weapon, a stark contrast to the colorful and varied gauntlet/greaves, swords, nunchuks and guitar scythes enjoyed by players of previous instalments. Alex Tan saying that Dante is slower, combined with talk about revenge and brutality, Ninja Theory's previous efforts at combat, and the Engine's limitations only add to this concern.
6. Prequel or Reboot?
Capcom and NT have been contradictory regarding this. In the initial media all references to the game were as a reboot. More recent interviews have sidestepped or muddled this issue, avoiding the word reboot for the term "origin." A Staff Member on the Ninja Theory forums said explicitly that it wasn't a "spinoff or DMC 5."
Regardless it is clear that elements of the story do not fit into the established canon. The PR manager Alex Tan said himself that "In the original story Dante was born with white hair, but here he?s not".
By using the term "original story" it is clear that this isn't part of it.
"I?d just like to say as I think it?s important that we aren?t ruling out the possibility of a Devil May Cry 5 to continue the story. We just want to see where the reboot goes first, before making any further decisions?.
Again, he refers to as a reboot and that the story of the original canon might possibly, maybe continue.
But later we get assurances that, despite the fact that Dante is "no longer cool" and "needed to change" that he might be back to his old self by the end of the game.
Problems with reboot:
The story of the past games may be thrown out. Characters may not exist in this continuity or may be altered beyond recognition or likeability. Left over plots from the series like the story of Nero and Virgil may never be answered.
Reboots are only appropriate when, as in the case of The Dark Knight and Batman movies, there has been a time since the series was at its peak and/or there are already one or more recent entries that show decay in the popularity or integrity of the franchise.
DMC 4 sold over 2.5 Million across platforms. This, compared with other series in the same genre (hack and slash) is competitive and puts it as one of the top selling games in its genre this generation of games. The number sold by DMC 4 is also the highest number in the series sold since the first game.
Problems with prequel (if what is confirmed is accurate):
The character's look and personality will have changed drastically between the time this game is supposed to take place in Dante's life and the events of DMC 3. Their origins and birth are also different. So different are they that no amount of story telling could reconcile the two. It would be impossible to realistically call it the same character.
We see no Rebellion, a sword which has appeared in every game except the first and which is an element of the DMC story. Also missing is his amulet with a gem that was given to him at an early age and is a key plot point of DMC 1 and 3. Those aren't cosmetic changes, they are major parts of the character's back story.
If it's a prequel it screws up the continuity. If it's a reboot the continuity, stories and characterization of the previous stories are all fair game to be altered or thrown away.
7. Capcom's involvement
The only confirmed involvement by Capcom Japan is a few members in a "creative oversight" role. This is vague and could mean nothing substantial.
Some argue that Ninja Theory has the storytelling talent to deliver a great story and that Capcom has the talent to produce great gameplay. This assumes that Capcom is handling the gameplay which is not backed up by any of the information available. Capcom is only "overseeing" the project. As far as we know all the gameplay and story will be done by Ninja Theory.
A creative oversight role so ill defined can not realistically ease concerns when the only confirmed result of that "oversight" (the art and character design) is so poor.
8. The Attitude Towards The Series and Fans
Perhaps the biggest problem from a PR perspective is the attitude on display. The fans are being condescendingly and insultingly misrepresented as "only afraid of change" or only upset about the hair. This is done consistently and without clarification or retraction which suggest an intentional strategy.
In addition to this is a marked indifference bordering on hostility towards fans on the part of Ninja Theory. Their forums specifically made it difficult to sign up once the game was announced and it was obvious people weren't pleased. The developers themselves never visit the site and the Staff in charge delete many comments negative about the game and ban members without warning and sometimes without reason.
In an interview Tameem, backed by Alex Jones, gave the wrong date for the first game, putting it two years before the launch of the console it was on.
NT's contradictions are especially insulting, considering their nature. They are not the result of indecisiveness or a desire to win people over but are retrospective and concerning their own product. Their comments serve to insult the series and the fans who like it.
They talk about taking cues from modern fashion then go on to call the original character a "fashionista." They create a skinny, effeminate character design and claim they are trying to make the character more "hard edged." They claim they kept the essential elements like his long coat while the design that they took over a year to create has a regular length jacket.
NT's statements about the character being "laughed out" of a bar in Tokyo and their insistence that "what was cool 12 years ago isn't cool now" make it seem unlikely they would return the character to his original, popular state.
The Developer's attitude shows an unfamiliarity and dislike of the source material and a contempt towards fans of the series. That is an indicator of the future of the product. It suggests that the series' integrity isn't important to them and that the product they are making is not designed with fans of the series in mind.
Conclusion:
As you can see, there are plenty of problems with this game's development that goes beyond a cursory glance. Fans are voicing their concerns before it's too late to get them changed.
That's another thing: was this a story that really needed to be told? A simple one-shot graphic novel or something could've easily explained that (that dumb-ass unfinished DMC3 manga notwithstanding). And even then, all that remained unknown at this point was a small handful of things: what happened to Sparda (how do you just randomly die after living for almost 2 millenia?); what spurred the demonic attack that resulted in the death of Eva (the twins' mother); how exactly did the twins have such a big falling out in the first place? I speak only for myself when I say I'm certainly not knocking a new DMC game, but this particular design decision comes off as little more than extraneous, unnecessary, and it just fucks up the DMC mythos that much more (and we all know that coherent stories are not Capcom's strong suit).Jumplion said: