I love Dark Souls... but i don't see how it's an RPG either. It'smore of a very hard action game. Really, the games it reminds me of the most would be Zelda, only with a bigger focus on character build and equipment.
Dark souls is utter crap as a game.
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...Which might actually be why it's an RPG. The Chosen Undead isn't just some cardboard cutout with a generic personality that gets just a LIIIITLE bit of growth throughout the course of the game. You decide where that character goes through the game, you can skip a good quarter of the game itself should you so desire. You can do certain events in different orders, you choose what weapons you want to use in what style, what armor you use, how they act, how they grow, how they look, you can even make them look pretty close to yourself, if you tweak it right. Your actions actually have consequences on the world and characters therein, as well.PsychedelicDiamond said:
Ninja Gaiden is a very hard action game. Dark Souls is quite so an RPG. It's an Action RPG, but an RPG nonetheless, even by the most basic and streamlined of definitions.
T'is understandable. No bad blood, I hope.s69-5 said:
It does not justify the gameplay because of a game-pad. Maybe when they release starcraft on the consoles they will blame consoles for not having a keyboard. Your argument is stupid at best, and why the hell should I need to purchase a game-pad when it was clearly meant to be ported properly.lapan said:
Lets say someone walked into a shop like a lot of every day joe's do and find the box for the pc and purchase it. Those people are going to have to put up with all the same crap and would be less informed than myself. Also I should not require to use a gamepad to play the game. They should be both as good as each other. There is no viable excuse for it, none. You attempt to lay blame on me for buying a game that says its for PC. PC's use keyboards not gamepads. If I wanted a gamepad I might as well throw myself into the console peasant bandwagon.
Cool story bro!
Of course personally, I thought it was the greatest game ever made (no joke! Number one on my list of all time)- and I've been gaming since Atari - so I guess the moral of the story is "different strokes."
Of course personally, I thought it was the greatest game ever made (no joke! Number one on my list of all time)- and I've been gaming since Atari - so I guess the moral of the story is "different strokes."
The devs warned everyone from the beginning of the faults of the port. If you close your eyes and ears and buy it it is not their fault. If you don't have internet and bought it retail i guess you could be kinda excused.kingthrall said:
The hate for controllers is also pretty funny. People have something as universal as a pc which can use almost any kind of inputdevice, but god forbid someone suggests to use something else than keyboard or mouse.
And besides, there are mods to fix almost any fault of the game by now. From resolution, to mouse, to fps.
I thought the game was pretty easy. I stopped playing though because the game started loosing direction after I fought a giant butterfly and I had no idea where to go next.
LOL, Yeah I can see it right now on the packaging.
GAMES FOR WINDOWS LIVE PC
"WARNING" THIS GAME SHOULD NOT BE PLAYED FOR PC
your argument is a joke, and devs should not be releasing material that is half finished.
Oh and you dont see xbox or playstations panning out a keyboard and mouse to play their platforms either so your argument there is also invalid.
Here's the video embedded:Slightly off-topic, more about the video:Dakota Ray said:
I learned a few things from that video but basically he voiced all the things I was thinking. I don't like this attitude floating around that treats games as a series of images and button presses with no further meaning to the player. Unless you're some kind of robot, games just don't work that way, and they shouldn't. And as ENB argues, expecting the game to not change even in that very academic sense for it's current target audience is unrealistic to put it kindly.
I agree with him about Dark Souls specifically but this attitude is applicable to video games in general. Fortunately, devs are well aware of this human element and attribute creative choices to it all the time. Denying it is strictly for internet arguments only. Even Todd Howard cut things out of Skyrim because they might effect how the player feels while playing. "Don't like it, don't use it" you say? Tell it to Todd.
This thread makes me wonder what people see in difficulty.
For me, things are either fun or they're hard. What satisfaction do you get out of frustration?
For me, things are either fun or they're hard. What satisfaction do you get out of frustration?
Full Disclosure: I have not finished Dark Souls, and I don't think I'm even close. My opinion may change when I have more complete information.Cowpoo said:
Most games rely on the threat of failure to motivate the player, if you want to put it that way. I'm sure if you turn god mode on in all your games you will find them a different experience. Personally, I would probably just quit rather than play that way. Dark Souls is only different in the way it takes advantage of that motivation to achieve it's ends.
I find the gameplay very fun (so far), even when I am playing a section I know I can beat (unless I get lazy, of course). I'm sorry you do not. Saying it wasn't difficult and then complaining about the punishment for death seems incongruous to me. But it sounds like you're really complaining about the nature of the difficulty and what you experienced as tedium. This game has me constantly making decisions and feeling pressure that I simply would not experience if I constantly had convenient checkpoints. It's a fact of most games that they would be better with more convenient checkpoints, but it's not an immutable law of nature. Dark Souls taught me that.
I like how the difficulty isn't in the technical execution but in dearth of information. It takes me back to Symphony of the Night. I like starting with incomplete information and learning the game as I go. I like those "AH-HA!" moments. I like starting with a seemingly unbeatable scenario and learning to make it trivial. It is not a "one-trick pony", it just seems that way to you because you don't like what it is trying to do in the broad sense. It's like saying any game is a "one-trick pony" because all you do is *insert whatever the game is here*.
This is one of those "I understand why you don't like it but are you sure you really can't see the appeal?" moments. I'm the first to call shit out for being pretentious, but Dark Souls isn't. It doesn't promise anything it doesn't deliver.
That's kinda how I like to view things as well. Although I'll admit there is some satisfaction to getting past something really difficult. Like for me, I found the final boss of Final Fantasy IX qute hard and frustrating. When I did beat him though, I was both relieved and satisfied to beat him and to get to view the game's fantastic ending.OhJohnNo said:
I guess it just depends on whether or not you feel that the reward for getting past a frustrating section is worth it.
As someone who speaks up for Skyrim, I know as well as anyone how condescending Dark Souls fans can be. But I don't think the main appeal of Dark Souls is the opportunity to feel superior to other people. Maybe for some people that is the appeal. Personally I just like it for what I get out of it.Aeshi said:
However, I agree that many who beat Dark Souls or Baldur's Gate or whatever wildly overstate or misunderstand how that accomplishment reflects on their intelligence.
Made in Japan Obviously 1 out of a thousand players would have one. Also you can not exclude buyers of the game, its worse actually than knowing the problem and does not excuse the fact that they have to put up with dodgy control's.lapan said:That's why i said those who bought it in retail are excused. Steam store says a controller is recommended. And with a controller its a great game.kingthrall said:
also:
Why the hell should I even be looking up if a game is playable anyway if its on PC? No game in 12 + years of gaming I have ever had the need to double check if its playable on the Pc? I just can not fathom this argument, its not even an argument if it were a faulty food product it would have been recalled right away as with any other product.
I won't defend From as the M&K controls were badly implemented with the mouse pointer visable, same goes for the fact that the wireless 360 pads wouldn't work without deleting a windows system file. That is even worse imo considering the 360 pad is the preferred method of control with the port using the 360s UI.kingthrall said:
But that isn't really the argument here, it's about if a PC gamer can expect all PC games to work perfectly with M&K which imo is unrealistic if the game is built around a different controller and the devs don't have the time, money or ability to properly implement it. As a old PC gamer who didn't always have a 360 pad I find it very strange that you wouldn't do your research when it comes to console ports. Doing your homework and PC gaming go hand in hand when there's so many PC games with bugs and badly implimented features.
I would recommend you do what I did and just bite the bullet and buy a wired 360 pad. (all black slim version) There's nothing stopping you from playing with M&K with most games and using the pad for games like DS where you really need to. You never know you might actually start like using it.
I still think there needs to be more info on digital store pages for games, but that isn't really just From's problem alone, it's commonplace with PC.
There are quite a few things wrong with this argument. The first and most glaring is that fun is a very subjective thing. Some guys have a blast buying a junker car for $200 and then fixing it up. For me getting covered in gas, oil, and grease while cutting up my hands on engine parts is about as far from fun as I can think of. Getting back to dark souls the trial and error risk and reward mechanics are fun for me. If I screw up and die then it means a run back but rising up and overcoming that adversity, feeling a genuine sense of accomplishment, that is fun to me. The fact that you call the run back as "tedious crap" is a clear sign that this game just isnt for you and there's nothing wrong with that. There are always going to be kinds of games that arent for everyone like racing games arent for meCowpoo said:
I think that might be where there's a disconnect. Dark souls is a very unforgiving game and its up front about that (it tells you to prepare to die, thats not a threat its good advice) but I see a lot of people coming to it and treating it like any other fantasy game. In that unforgiving sense its also a niche game which by definition means its for "a distinct segment of a market" or to put it in simpler terms its not for everyone. That alone is a shame because I wish everyone could play and love the game as much as I do but I also see artistic methods as sacrosanct. That said, I consider the unforgiving difficulty an artistic tool and I dont think its fair for myself or any gamer to force change of a developers art. Its one thing to come into the game and find out it isnt for you, its quite another to come to it and demand change (unless you were promised something like with the ME3 endings debacle)
Your comparison about it being a hipsters art project actually isnt that far off IMO. Most people can play 100+ hours and not know the rich story that is there but thats because most players expect it to be spoon fed to them and laid out in crystal clear forms. So, yes, most people do miss the point unless they really start looking for it. Now for me I really enjoy the cryptic style because IMO it makes the story more interesting because there arent clear cut answer. The firstborn son of Gwyn is one of those mysteries that Im most interested in because there is no answer. Human nature has a tendency to seek out mysteries for the sake of solving them but the one constant is when you get an answer the mysteries become easily forgotten and uninteresting. The best mysteries are ones you never get an answer to
Not everybody gets frustrated by it. I like a challenge, if a game isn't challenging me I barely feel like I'm playing sometimes.OhJohnNo said:
There are a lot of similarities between Dark/Demon Souls and say Super Meat Boy. You aren't allowed to make mistakes, you must have impeccable timing, you must not only learn from your mistakes but remember how to respond to each as they came up each time. Super Meat Boy while hard as hell and sometimes crazy inducing doesn't make you feel like you wasted time. The fact that in DS you need to redo massive amounts of content that you already have shown you can overcome is not unlike redoing the same thing in SMB. However scale plays an important factor, 1-2 minutes of lost time is very different from 15-20 minutes of lost time. The need to respond to a situation that will never be overcome the first time forcing you to work all the way back to it to find out how to do it. Seemingly unavoidable deaths are never fun when you can't tell if you caused it.
There are games that are hard because of needing good execution, there are games that are hard because of poor game design, and then there are games that are hard because the development team liked to cause play testers endless suffering. I think the Souls game fall firmly in the last. Sadistic dev teams.
There are games that are hard because of needing good execution, there are games that are hard because of poor game design, and then there are games that are hard because the development team liked to cause play testers endless suffering. I think the Souls game fall firmly in the last. Sadistic dev teams.
Just to pipe in because the average post in these arguments end up in, "That's a ridiculous notion; I said faulty food product and not whether it needs to be cooked to be enjoyed or even edible."lapan said:
@Kingthrall
The studio no doubt had a low-budget to port a game that has been released well within a year earlier on different platforms. There was always the answer of, "We don't think it's appropriate to launch a title that wasn't intentionally made for that platform; we are considering bringing future titles to the market, however." - Slightly skewered Bandai-Namco reply
Finally as demand piled up the publisher caved in; I don't think we should exactly blame From Software for making a cruddy port as the people who were eager to see this on their platform and didn't expect that the port would turn out to be simplified or even broken that they should have expected as much... instead we got mixed reviews between people who really wanted to play it on PC but couldn't, people who did some research and decide whether or not the game would be an investment, people who were hoping for enhanced everything designed for their mindset of a common PC-port, and the consolers who just really wanted their hands at the DLC early and only rated the expansion.
Truthfully I enjoyed it and enjoyed it even more when the resolution fix became what it is now (the 'holy grail' to making Dark Souls better on the PC.) I was one of those eager people who already knew the port would be less than satisfying but didn't want to go and buy a $200 console so I popped online and found a cheap XBOX 360 controller and bought Dark Souls; it may not be the best way to tell a developer we didn't like the end quality of the port but I really hope it shines some light on future releases where From can develop the next game whether it's a sequel or a new IP with a similar design on PC without similar limitations.
Only-thing I can understand some resentment is the price; considering I did have to buy a controller; $40+ for this game seemed pretty steep. Of course I threw it in the back of my mind by acknowledging the expansion being 2 months ahead of consoles (and presumably costing $10 to play.) It's just that if a friend asks about it I usually tell them to wait for it to go on sale and whether or not an official patch fixes some of the problems the community has fixed themselves.
If you disagree; well you're just a blind gamer who wants to complain about a game he/she chooses whether or not to buy and everyone else is an idiot for not seeing it that way; that's fine. There is a mod that does fix the mouse(& keyboard) controls respectively and I hope you've tried it. If all else fails; you can always push Steam (GFWL?) into giving you a refund if you hadn't tried already (unless you're one of those buggers who played the game for 20+ hours, but that's just me.) Hopefully none of this came off as too rude.