I'm sorry you've only met women like that. I also hope you come to the realisation that a relationship isn't some kind of grind quest where you do lots of expensive, boring shit that you have no interest in just so you get sex.Shark Wrangler said:
Dating norms need to change
- Thread starter Riku'sTwilight
- Start date
I have the opposite problem. I don't like guys paying for everything. Makes me feel like I'm mooching off of them. I have money too, I can pay for my own dinner/movie ticket/whatever. But every single guy I've gone out with decides that he needs to pay for everything for me. "Because chivalry," I assume. It's flattering, if I make an attempt to look at it objectively... but it's just annoying when I go, "Oh no, I can pay for my half," and the guy insists on paying anyways. And I always tell them beforehand that I'm going to pay for my part of wherever we go.Blind Sight said:
Not listening to me = uber-turn-off.
No offence OP but you just sound bitter and like you are stuck in 1950.
Every date I have gone out with I have paid equally for. I asked my first boyfriend out first.
Your views are completely outdated.
Every date I have gone out with I have paid equally for. I asked my first boyfriend out first.
Your views are completely outdated.
...No? Why would you think this?Nickolai77 said:
Its not "Oh, I'm a Girl! I need a Man to protect me!"
Its "Hey, this guy looks like he has his shit together. Great, a relationship with him would be about spending time with each other and having fun instead of having to play the mindgames of a guy with tons of insecurities and anxiety issues."
Women always get painted as being the ones who are emotional, and illogical and who read waaay too far into things, but that's a human trait, and women are just as disinterested in dealing with someone who refuses to accept and address their personal issues as men are...
Unless one is really so naive as to mistake someone's insecurities and problems with "endearing gender traits."
And then we're right back to someone blaming society and the opposite sex for why they always pick bad partners.
All we can do about these norms is to praise women who make the first move.Riku said:
So to all you women who make the first move: YOU ARE AWESOME AND HAVE NERVES OF STEEL! Seriously, you make it so much easier for men, as much as tough-guy douches don't want to admit it.
I cannot say I have all that much in terms of experiance other than I am with someone now. I think if you are looking for someone you are just as likly to find someone as if you are not looking for someone.
esperandote said:
You made a fairly common, and completely stupid generalisation about the human psyche. It's like you're 14, and have no idea about the real world. Go on, quote some more, hackneyed, cliches, without bothering to think, or look up any information about the subject.
ohgodalex said:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/04/its-always-sunny-in-phila_1_n_749078.html
remember, kids, none of us ever need to resort to rape, because of the implication, as the above video proves
Yeah, pretty much this.Phasmal said:
Besides, the girl isn't ENTIRELY in control of when the kiss occurs. It's just that (in your example) the guy is ready before the girl is.
Trust me, if I (female) want to kill a man who doesn't want me to, it doesn't happen. It takes two to tango. For one thing, generally the guy needs to lean down a bit or I'd end up kissing his chin.
I believe that women have every right to control their own sexuality and the manner in which they behave in courting rituals. In this specific situation the Poster seemed to not be someone who others attempted to impress for whatever reason. So in that situation it is perfectly acceptable to impress a woman with whatever abilities he has i.e. paying for dates, amazing her with his mime act or showing her his enormous collection of warhammer 40K figurines (painting them blue may be useful here....).Greyah said:
A woman could do the exact same thing, I do not believe that there is a specific way that each sex should behave because in my opinion gender is entirely fabricated.
Ok, I found this interesting, a few points I would like to pick up on.Beliyal said:
Before I continue, I would like to point out that pretty much all of my experience is from cold-approach pick-up. In other words, I rarely date girls in my social circle. Most of the girls I date have never been my friends, the first time I meet them is on the street, the second time I meet them is on a date. I realise that this gives me a skewed perception of dating, but I've dated upwards of 20 girls in the last few months (saying that, a lot of them were single coffee dates that didn't go anywhere). When doing it my way, I don't have the luxury of time. If I meet a girl and don't at least get her contact details, chances are I'll never see her again.
Now in response to your post. Some of these are quite subtle distinctions, ones which I didn't really think of until reading your post.
Firstly, there is a difference between being in control and being controlling.
Being in control is a positive trait. It's having a clear idea of what you want, having the know-how to get it and having the confidence to put those plans into action. I would go so far as to say that this is one of the few universally attractive traits. Some girls, as you say, like shy nerdy guys, but I'm going to suggest that guys lacking this quality is the number one reason why threads like this exist.
Being controlling is a negative trait. It results from a lack of confidence or insecurity. If a guy is controlling, chances are its because its that he believes that the girl he has doesn't want him. He considers other men a threat. He feels the best way to keep the girl is, metaphorically, on a leash.
I have no insecurities about a girl having lots of male friends or enjoying her time away from me. I would even let her have other sexual partners if she felt comfortable with giving me the same privilege.
Secondly, I would like to say that by no means do I consider myself macho. I'm not a gym freak, I read lots of books, I study maths, I hate clubbing, it's been a while since I've been drunk. I don't consider macho-ness important in the light of true masculinity.
I think this is a trait that can take a long time to cultivate but is essential in realising your true potential as a man. I only consider myself part way towards this goal. A truly masculine man should be courteous, always have the woman's needs in mind and consider satisfying her his primary goal. He should be upfront, straightforward and unapologetic about his actions. He should be honest and dependable. He should also be in control.
There is no reason a man can't be both masculine and romantic. It depends whether the romantic element comes from a position of strength or weakness. If a guy takes a girl out for an expensive meal because he is thinking "hey, maybe if I do THIS then she will finally put out!", then being romantic is a negative quality.
I'm not rich enough to afford to take women out to fine restaurants. If I was however, it would just be an extension of my lifestyle. The frame is "I eat in fine restaurants, I would enjoy taking a girl there and she would enjoy my company", not "oh boy, I've got a date with a nice girl, I better impress her". If I was a rich businessman for example, it would just come off as being incredibly cheap to insist that she paid for her share of the meal.
I'd like to clarify that I don't generally pay for dates and they usually just involve going for coffee. Dates don't need to be anything big or impressive. It's not my job to impress a girl.
I was speaking with a woman about the impressions each sex has of the other, referring to a conversation I overheard where three women were talking about the coffee shop where they worked at, and being afraid to close up after dark. I live in a fairly innocuous neighborhood, but grew up in a violent city, so I was conflicted. Basically, the conversation was three women deciding that pretty much all men were out to rape them at any given moment, and being women, they were under constant threat by men, and they were helpless in the likely event they would be raped.
To my companion, I suggested that the perception that all men are rape-monsters with potentially lethal amounts of lust boiling inside us all was silly, offensive, and unfair. She agreed, but said it was a societally formed discrimination. For a man to approach a woman in a place that is not designated for doing so (such places being parties, nightclubs, etc) he is going to be perceived as a threat. A woman walking alone at night will do her best to avoid men. She admitted it was totally sexist, and offered nothing more as far as to how this perception could be averted.
Therein lies the point. This is sexism, this is discrimination, and it's tolerated by too many people. There isn't much men can do, we've been openly emasculated in most forms of media for decades, and this will likely never end because too many people are either totally for it or just plain apathetic.
Used to be people understood what flirting was, these days it seems everything is considered flirting, and it's up to men to figure out when they mean it or they do not. She smiles at you, she's not flirting, she just smiled at you, or maybe she's flirting? How would we know? What are we to do? How can we even say hello without getting maced for secretly being rape-monsters?
Rhetorical questions, there are no answers.
To my companion, I suggested that the perception that all men are rape-monsters with potentially lethal amounts of lust boiling inside us all was silly, offensive, and unfair. She agreed, but said it was a societally formed discrimination. For a man to approach a woman in a place that is not designated for doing so (such places being parties, nightclubs, etc) he is going to be perceived as a threat. A woman walking alone at night will do her best to avoid men. She admitted it was totally sexist, and offered nothing more as far as to how this perception could be averted.
Therein lies the point. This is sexism, this is discrimination, and it's tolerated by too many people. There isn't much men can do, we've been openly emasculated in most forms of media for decades, and this will likely never end because too many people are either totally for it or just plain apathetic.
Used to be people understood what flirting was, these days it seems everything is considered flirting, and it's up to men to figure out when they mean it or they do not. She smiles at you, she's not flirting, she just smiled at you, or maybe she's flirting? How would we know? What are we to do? How can we even say hello without getting maced for secretly being rape-monsters?
Rhetorical questions, there are no answers.
you have some pretty strange ideas about dating, or had case had some odd dates i'm guessing.
amongst the girls i've been out with several off them made the first move, they aproached me, asked me out, and even when i offered to pay for everything they still insisted to share the bill. and when it comes to kissing or anything behond that, hey its always a mutual thing
though after reading your first post i gotta say, its not about how much money you spend on a date, you can't buy her a few drinks and consider it only fitting she aks you inside later
you gotta understand that in such cases each person will always be in ''control'' of themselves and deciding where it goes. I mean you say she's in control about if she's going to kiss you, but you are in as much control as her, over if you let her kiss you and vise versa ofcourse.
amongst the girls i've been out with several off them made the first move, they aproached me, asked me out, and even when i offered to pay for everything they still insisted to share the bill. and when it comes to kissing or anything behond that, hey its always a mutual thing
though after reading your first post i gotta say, its not about how much money you spend on a date, you can't buy her a few drinks and consider it only fitting she aks you inside later
you gotta understand that in such cases each person will always be in ''control'' of themselves and deciding where it goes. I mean you say she's in control about if she's going to kiss you, but you are in as much control as her, over if you let her kiss you and vise versa ofcourse.
No.Riku said:
Here's a hint, you're only DATING. You're not doing your SATs or something. If you're so invested in making sure it goes right that you're already having massive insecurity attacks when you're just at the dating stage, you need to lighten up, ditch all expectations and just have fun.
If the kind of women you date expect you to go through some kind of psychological challenge to figure out that their ideal SECOND date involves a space flight, Tom Jones and a crate of Moet, I suggest you start looking elsewhere.
Okay, wow, what you're proposing is only borderline rapist.
No.
Has happened to me plenty of times.
Has happened to me several times.
Why should she? (Almost happened to me, actually)
I personally have made that call at least once.
You do know that all that talk about "Mr Right" is something that generally exclusively goes on between gatherings of girls, and is generally the female equivalent of a group of blokes asking "Megan Fox or Scarlett Johannsen?"
I hope I'm also not the first person to point out to you that if you've ever been rejected and told "you're a nice guy", it's basically code for "you're boring and this is my way of letting you down easy." It has nothing to do with how 'nice' you actually are.
Dating norms are fine. Either drop your bizarre ideas of social sex contracts or move to a culture that supports them.
Simply because of society norms and how society pushes and ETC. Many girls go after the wrong man, you know, the asshole pretty boy one because, well, society and media pushed into their minds that, THAT type of person is the Mr. Right. Honestly, it doesn't work the same way in reverse, but does have the same effect.
Overall, as you can tell, I really don't think their delicate, many times they backstab both friends, family, and many others over petty things, then get away Scot free. I'm reminded of the event to where four highschool girls held down a elementary school boy and stripped him, against his will, and videotaped it and put onto the interenet to say "Hay, look what I did this week" not counting that they THEN get away with no punishment. Or the time that the Women in Russia caught a guy robbing her store, and kept him as a sex slave for several weeks before cops found out. Or the time that a woman got away with killing her husband, despite full evidence that would lead to a conviction, she got away, SCOT FREE because she said he abused her. Or the thing to where a woman has a higher chance of keeping a child in a divorce, despite being unfit as a parent to lead the child through their lives, and probably MANY others, honestly, they can be, sorry to use the phrase, asses, but so can everyone, so lets not play special here.
Love may be slow, but the way it is NOW is tailored around when woman were known as delicate flowers. They fought for equality, can we just give them that?
I can't count how many times that is wrong with me, mainly because I see women as a rose bush, their nice and pretty, romantic, sometimes even flutter in the wind, but try and grab them and you get your hand cut up. Very rarely will you find one that is nicer then the rest and will let itself into your grasp.PhoenixOnly said:
Overall, as you can tell, I really don't think their delicate, many times they backstab both friends, family, and many others over petty things, then get away Scot free. I'm reminded of the event to where four highschool girls held down a elementary school boy and stripped him, against his will, and videotaped it and put onto the interenet to say "Hay, look what I did this week" not counting that they THEN get away with no punishment. Or the time that the Women in Russia caught a guy robbing her store, and kept him as a sex slave for several weeks before cops found out. Or the time that a woman got away with killing her husband, despite full evidence that would lead to a conviction, she got away, SCOT FREE because she said he abused her. Or the thing to where a woman has a higher chance of keeping a child in a divorce, despite being unfit as a parent to lead the child through their lives, and probably MANY others, honestly, they can be, sorry to use the phrase, asses, but so can everyone, so lets not play special here.
Love may be slow, but the way it is NOW is tailored around when woman were known as delicate flowers. They fought for equality, can we just give them that?
Has anyone told all the misdirected, misanthropic, misogynist miscreants in this thread to fuck off back to r/MensRights yet? It's telling that every time I load up the front page of this site, the forums feed contains at least one horrible thread penned by some angsty teenager with a completely warped worldview and an entitlement complex. Everytime I click on one, I think to myself, "this one has to be a troll", but nope, this is what this kid actually believes. Where do people get these ideas?
Yeah, I am a woman and I made the first move with my current boyfriend. I was feeling shitty and had just gotten out of a long term relationship so I got on one of those online dating sites to feel better about myself, and then I got a few crappy dates waiting around for guys to message me so I said "fuck this" and searched around for a guy I -want- rather than waiting for one to fall in my lap and I sent him the first message. Not all women are like you described, and if they are, it's because society has dictated that women who make the first move are either desperate or whores. I didn't give a fuck, but a lot of girls are insecure and they think the guy couldn't possibly want them, so they don't make the first moves. As for money, I don't let anyone pay for me, EVER. It's just not something I'm comfortable with unless I'm flat broke and then I get them back as soon as I get paid again. It's not very nice to make generalizations based on your experiences. You just need to meet different girls mate.
While at the same time that 'nice guy' has no interest in the 'nice girl' who is not quite as model-esque as he'd hoped and she's just a regular girl...Riku said:
http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2007/12/16/the-internet-nice-guy-rears-his-ugly-head-once-more/
OP is PROBABLY not the best person to start this thread, but from what I can figure out, hes asking why does *in a sense* does a guy do all the work, all the surprising while the women just sits there judging each attempt? I'll quote myself for a second.McGuinty1 said:
" I see women as a rose bush, their nice and pretty, romantic, sometimes even flutter in the wind, but try and grab them and you get your hand cut up. Very rarely will you find one that is nicer then the rest and will let itself into your grasp."
And Men DO have rights, not all guys are horrible monsters and not everyone in the gender should be treated like their horrible monsters.
Anyways, could you answer the OPs question from what I got out of it?